Combatives martial arts styles
 

In my current modern world campaign, military hardware and martial arts are one of the mainstays. This renders it somewhat impractical for me to switch over to 4e for that campaign, as the books High Tech and Martial Arts for 4e have not yet been published, while the previous edition had quite functional and enjoyable rules for guns and unarmed fighting.

As a consequence, I find myself still using the 3e Martial Art styles regularly during play. The addition of manoeuvres and secondary skills add verisimilitude and combine to make PCs specialising in the various styles distinct from each other. However, while the 3e Martial Art book covers a large variety of styles, it is all but impossible to shoehorn every form of martial art into a single sourcebook.

I know that people here overwhelmingly use 4e rules, but I suspect that there are many who still remember the rules of the previous edition and anyone who bets against GURPS players being intimately familiar with real world phenomena as it relates to gaming is looking to lose money. Therefore, I ask you, my fellow Internet geeks, if anyone has ideas on how best to represent the following styles using 3e Martial Arts rules:

Anti Terror Kampf

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

Combat SAMBO

Krav Maga

MCMAP

S.C.A.R.S.

Systema

I am aware that many of them could be represented by the Military Hand-to-Hand style, with perhaps a little Fairbairn system thrown in, but I am looking for a little more detail than that. 4e suggestions are welcome as well, since converting should be a breeze and I will probably do it as soon as 4e Martial Arts comes out anyway.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

FWIW, these made it into the MA4e draft:


but these...


...these did not.

Just so you know where to focus your most strenuous efforts. Hope that helps a bit. :D

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Thanks.

Any chance of making a guess about stats for those styles that did NOT make it into the 4e draft?

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

In 3e terms? Heh. I'm a 4e martial arts expert, not 3e. ;)

I haven't done all that much research on them - I had problems finding a ready supply of unbiased material and people with personal experience, plus I already had a good supply of example military HTH styles. MCMAP was an easy sell, for example - ready access to printed materials, no less than 3 belt holders in the style - two of whom could literally demonstrate moves on me in person.

So it is hard for me to hazard much of a conversion for them to either 3e or 4e because I just didn't do the homework on them. For System and Anti Terror Kampf it was hard for me to find much that didn't read like ad copy, too. Pile that on top of "No personal access to a stylist" and I couldn't justify the research time to find out the real bones of the system and what it would look like in 4e.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

I'm having the same trouble with ad copy descriptions.

There should be some German military types here who can give us an idea of how ATK really works.

S.C.A.R.S. is pretty dead in the water unless one of our regular posters happens to be a Navy SEAL.

Systema is really something that GMs have to decide for themselves how effective it is. It would probably resemble SAMBO somewhat, have a wide selection of improvised weapons and be include many "excessive force" techniques and few soft ones.

I'm going to have to come up with something on both SAMBO and Systema as one of my players wants his character to develop a more dangerous style of unarmed/improvised weapon combat and is looking to enter some kind of Spetznaz training to do it.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

As no one seems to be biting, I'll have to risk trying doing one myself and see whether I can get any constructive criticism. I don't really have any specific knowledge of martial arts so the following is basically a WAG based on anecdotal evidence and seeing things on a phosphor screen.

Brazilian Jui-Jitsu Cost: 10/-

Primary skills: Judo, Wrestling
Secondary skills: Brawling
Optional skills: Intimidation, Judo Sport, Tournament Law, Wrestling Sport
Manoeuvres: Arm lock [2 points], Breakfall, Choke Hold [2 points], Ground Fighting [2 points]

This represents a fairly hard, full-contact version of the sport. A softer, more sportsmanlike version might switch the Sport versions of Judo and Wrestling to Primary skills and drop Brawling.

Commentary from people who actually practice this sport is welcome. Luther, this means you.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Okay, but can the system give a realistic representation of sumito? :D

-- Steve Perry fan Pragmatic

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

I haven't read the novels in question, but if you can provide some details of the style, sure it can.

I seem to recall elements of the style being taken from Pentjak Silat, so that would be a good starting point.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Been a while since I've read the books, but the latest is out, so I'll have to order it from the library. :)

It's a style based on movement and throws, with a little bit hard style in it. (Speaking as a complete novice; less than a novice, really.) There are some sort of psycho-mechanical hypnosis they're able to use, as well, though that's a bit cinematic.

Here's the wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumito

(And WOW, but a lot of places rip off from Wiki...)

I mostly like it because it's based on movement and an accomplished practitioner seems to be dancing.

Will the Martial Arts book make maneuvers worthwhile? As I understand it right now (as a GURPS collector, rather than player *sigh*), getting more than a few maneuvers isn't really worthwhile, as you can get a better deal by just improving the stat or the underlying skill. However, I like having the extra description of having a maneuver...

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

ATK Cost: 11/-

Primary Skills: Brawling, Judo
Secondary Skills: Karate, Pressure Points
Optional skills: Shortsword, Tonfa
Manoeuvres: Arm Lock, Choke Hold, Disarming [2 points], Elbow Strike, Hit Location (Brawling) [2 points], Knee Strike

That’s my take on it, but I’d welcome some input from those who actually know anything about it.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

I agree that this is a problem with the 4e rules as we see them now, but I hope that SJGames will fix this with Martial Arts. I liked the manuever costs in 3e and I hope that it becomes worthwhile again to have more than two manuvers for a given skill.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Sean has pretty clearly stated several times before that we are not "fixing" BASIC SET. There will be valid reasons to buy martial arts styles, but we are not re-costing Techniques to do it.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Pressure Points is cinematic, and requires TBAM. If you make a realistic skill, it should probably require a UB and move up to Primary skills. As a secondary skill it isn't going to get much use (and gets hung up on the odd rules about secondary vs. primary skill levels).

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

The Pressure Points skill states specifically that a GM may consider allowing it even in a realistic campaign. Personally I allow it without TBAM, but for those who do not, the cost of ATK is one point less.

I find Pressure Points all but useless in combat, but many players want their characters to know the skill. In something like three years of playing in a campaign with heavy unarmed combat themes, not a single opponent has been neutralised by use of the skill. Arm locks, choke holds or strikes against vulnerable areas such as brain, neck or limbs are the usual fight-ending moves. A short lived partial paralysis IF the opponent fails a HT check is about as practical as a rubber chicken. The skill might be more useful if it allowed a "Vulcan nerve pinch" type knock-out move, but then it would probably be a lot less realistic.

Learning ATK may or may not require an Unusual Background, but I think that depends on the individual GM's preference.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Very well. I guess we will just have to wait and salivate wildly, then. ;)

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Systema Cost: 23/-

Primary skills: Brawling, Judo, Karate
Secondary Skills: Knife and any three of the following Axe/Mace, Broadsword, Spear, Shield, Short Sword, Staff, Two-handed Axe/Mace, Whip
Optional skills: Other weapons, Body Language, Scrounging, Wrestling
Manoeuvres: Aggressive Parry, Arm Lock, Breakfall, Choke Hold, Close-combat (Knife), Disarming (Judo), Elbow Strike, Eye Gouging (Karate), Finger Lock, Ground Fighting (Judo), Head Butt, Head Lock, Hit Location (Brawling, Karate or Knife), Knee Strike, Neck Snap, Stamp Kick

This version of Systema assumes that the various armed techniques taught by the Spetznaz are included and as it is presented here, most people would never master the style but instead only learn the basics (covered by Military Hand to Hand).

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Hey Toadkiller. Any word on an eta for playtest?

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Could someone tell me how martial arts styles are priced, and any simple special rules which they used in 3e? I never got MA 3e, and plan to get MA 4e, but would understand if this is too much copyrighted material to give free.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Sorry, I can't divulge anything like that - I'm a co-author on it, but playtest announcements, timing, etc. aren't something I can discuss.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

S.C.A.R.S. Cost: 6/-

Primary skills: Brawling
Secondary skills: Karate
Optional skills: None
Manoeuvres: Aggressive Parry*, Elbow Strike, Hit Location (Brawling), Knee Strike, Riposte (Brawling)

*Note, the style does not teach traditional blocks or parries and hence every parry using S.C.A.R.S. is automatically an Aggressive Parry. This costs no points.

I am aware that the advertisements surrounding this style are mostly false and that the claims made by proponents are patently ridiculous. Nevertheless, the style was taught to BUD/S trainees at one point in the 80’s and that implies that there are at least some marginally useful techniques. This version of the style is presented as being more helpful than no training at all, but GMs are free to vary it for their campaigns.

Any comments would be welcomed, especially from people with some martial arts experience.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Here is one I expect that at least some posters here know from personal experience. How ‘bout some comments?

MCMAP Cost: 11*/-

Primary skills: Brawling, Judo, Spear
Secondary skills: Knife, Karate
Optional skills: Axe/Mace, Short sword, Staff, Tonfa
Manoeuvres: Arm Lock, Breakfall, Disarming, Close-combat (Knife or Spear), Elbow Strike, Hit Location (Brawling or Spear), Knee Strike, Retain Weapon (Rifle)

*If we assume 1/2 point levels for most average manuevers.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Add Breakfall, and Knee Strike to the Maneuvers. I'm not sure about Retain Weapon unless it's a Black Belt technique.

Do you really think MCMAP strikes and kicks are Brawling? I'd go for for Karate myself.

Hit Location in 4e needs to specifiy both an attack and a location ie. Knee Strike(Groin) or Bayonet Thrust (Vitals).

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

From what I understand, MCMAP strikes are meant to flow naturally from what students already know and be learned quickly and with a minimum of effort. That, in my opinion, implies Brawling. Karate is a part of the training, certainly, and those kicks that are taught would without a doubt fall under that.

Keep in mind, however, that this is in 3e terms, where it was often better to have a high level of Brawling skill and then just Karate at level 15 to add to damage.

I wondered about Knee Strike and mostly left it out to avoid having all the combatives styles look alike. I will add it.

Breakfall? Basic Judo skill is assumed to include training in that and only those styles that emphasise it heavily have it written as a seperate manuever in MA 3e. Are you sure?

Retain Weapon (Rifle), I would consider very likely as a part of bayonet training. Retain Weapon (Pistol) was included to represent CQB training. If you think it is unwarranted, I'll drop it.

And as for Hit Location, this is the 3e version of MCMAP. SJGames will include the style in 4e terms in the new Martial Arts book.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Yeah, after all those Knee Drills I think it's certainly justified.
I've practiced breakfalls in MCMAP almost as much as I did in aikido.
We did a little Retain Weapon (Rifle) at Tan Belt (basically one move), Gray Belt doesn't have any emphasis on bayonet combat really (that I know of). I'm not sure about pistol stuff. I'm only a Tan Belt, and have some Gray Belt training, myself.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

I'm just worried about the excessive cost of the style. It's reaching a similar cost level as the more complex Sport/Art styles and that goes counter to the purpose of it.

I'll add it if you insist. Sigh... ;)

I´ll admit that the focus on bayonet training is influenced partly by the older LINE system and I sort of assumed that it would hold true today as well.

Pistol stuff duly dropped.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

I'm hardly insisting, I suspect the problem is with the way 3e did styles. Also remember, I'm not an expert, I am a holder of the lowest belt in the Program.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Which makes you a bigger expert than I am. ;)

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Sorry, I missed the thread. There is a nice article in Pyramid: Do You Tap?. For a more orthodox take here is my contribution for 3e (note the spelling, and the point cost):


Old Style Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu 10 points.

Primary skills: Wrestling, Brawling.
Secondary skills: Judo.
Optional skills: Intimidation.
Maneuvers: Arm lock, Choke Hold, Ground Fighting (Brawling), Ground Fighting (Wrestling) [2], Head Butt, Head Lock, Leg Grapple.

This is the classic old style BJJ, as it was thought and fought in Rio's streets back in the old days. The emphasis is on achieving a superior position on the ground and striking the opponent, with punches, elbows and head butts. It's similar to today mixed martial arts styles, but more rough. There is some interesting footage in Gracie in Action tapes.


Sport Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu 10 points.

Primary skills: Judo Sport.
Secondary skills: Wrestling Sport, Tournament Law (BJJ).
Optional skills: Brawling.
Maneuvers: Arm lock [2], Breakfall, Choke Hold [2], Ground Fighting (Judo) [2], Head Lock, Wrist Lock

The split between vale tudo and sport oriented practitioners became serious in 70s when competitions got increasingly common. Later Carlson Jr. was very active in developing the system and new rules. This style is usually thought in modern academies, it rely heavily on guard work and submissions.


Submission Wrestling 8 points.

Primary skills: Wrestling Sport.
Secondary skills: Judo Sport, Tournament Law (SW).
Optional skills: Brawling.
Maneuvers: Arm lock [2], Choke Hold, Ground Fighting (Wrestling) [2] Head Lock, Wrist Lock.

Basically BJJ without the gi. Less grip means less technique, and in turn greater importance of strength and mass, less throws and more takedowns. Chokes are limited too, at least compared to BJJ and Judo.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Luther, this is great.

All that is missing is BJJ as a combative (stripped of all sporting elements and only focusing on hurting the opponent). I know that the US Special Forces and other special operation forces learn this and would be interested in seeing how you would stat a purely functional style based on BJJ.

Wrestling is inferior to Judo in 3e rules, is it not? There is no reason ever to have both, is there?

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

You should require them to pay for this, unless the intention is that they cannot do normal parries but still do APs at the normal default.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Luther's version of Old-Style Brazilian Juijutsu ought to work well... perhaps a more modern grappling/groundfighting style incorporating Juijutsu elements might look like:

Combative Juijutsu
Primary skills: Wrestling
Secondary skills: Judo, Brawling
Maneuvers: Arm lock, Choke Hold, Ground Fighting (Wrestling), Ground Fighting (Brawling), Head Lock, Leg Grapple.

[note:] I make wrestling the primary skill here, because the style emphasises going to the ground with your opponent (which I see as GURPS Wrestling skill) rather than throwing your opponent to the ground while you remain upright (which I see as being more the province of GURPS Judo Skill).

It's not a stand alone art... you'd probably want to train it in conjunction with Muay Thai, Kali (GURPS 3e Escrima), or Jun Fan (GURPS 3e Jeet Kune Do) or some form of upright military hand-to-hand.

The thing to remember is that while Gracie Juijutsu is a very effective, very efficient style for groundfighting, it does not particularily emphasise upright fighting or speedy resoultion. A juijutsu fighter will usually be looking to take an opponent to the ground and force him to submit through manuvering and endurance. In a modern battlefield or street-fighting situation, there's often not much opportunity for one-on-one fighting, and going to the ground is not always a good idea.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Yep, altough I forgot to add Ground Fighting (Brawling) -- edited now.
Actually the purpose of ground fighting is to finish the opponent faster too. On the ground it is much easier to knock out or incapacitate your enemy. I agree that one-on-one isn't very common, but unarmed hand to hand is a last restort anyway, and going to the ground is fairly common in real fights, so you have to be prepared.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

The intention was indeed that normal parries were impossible and that Agressive Parries were made at the normal default.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Okay, nice.

The US Army learns moves from BJJ as well as more traditional military hand to hand.

How would we write up their curriculum? I am reasonably sure that the Wrestling elements would be shorn from the style in favour of Judo (more efficient in game terms) and that Knife and Spear would feature as secondary skills. Disarm and Arm Lock would be emphasised, but since BJJ is specifically mentioned and not just any other variety of grappling, I presume that ground-fighting is taught extensively.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Around here (Germany) Systema definitely includes Whip as a Secondary Skill - not just the traditional nagaika (or nagayka) whip but also "normal" whips and improvised weapons like chains, a section of garden hose, etc.
Also the Shield skill is sometimes taught in conjunction with the Broadsword skill (in Systema broadsword training often means training with a cavalry sabre, the shashka)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shashka
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagyka

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

They do? When? I was under the impression that they learned some basic HTH in basic training and that was it. IME, the only Soldiers that I've met who were Martial Artists had studied something else on the side. AFAICT they don't have anything like MCAP. I suppose I could ask my sister, though.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

this point bears repeating. Hand to hand stuff can probably be loosely grouped into three or four categories. Longer-distance pummeling, close in standup/transition, ground fighting, and maybe "weapon assist."

All hand-to-hand unarmed combat is defined by the limits of human anatomy. Striking is bringing a hard part of your body against a vulerable part of theirs. This can be hard (strike bones or vulnerable squishy bits) or soft (cripple joints). Takedowns, throws, close-in work, and transitions work against balance. "Sweep the leg!" Grappling and ground fighting takes these principles and adds constant contact with a surface. But all are defined by human frailty and power, and so you can't necessarily look at a strike and say "Oh, that's clearly a Hwa Rang Do spear hand!" You could just as easily say "that spear hand technique was lifted from a greek vase thousands of years ago," and still be entirely correct.

Just because a move looks BJJ-ish doens't necessarily make it BJJ. Or anything else. A lot of millitary training is not a martial art at all, but a short list of very effective fighting techniques.

Just like the guy who won an all-comers sparring tournament with one single technique (a really fast reverse punch), you can do a lot with a handful of brutally efficient blows, takedowns, and submissions. You don't have a ton of time, in most cases, to turn soldiers into a Fighting Force of Incredible Magnitude.

I do sorta wish GURPS had gone with some of the other breakdowns for 4e, like Punch, Kick, Takedown, Grapple, or any of the variants discussed in previous threads on this topic. Some of the similarities and differences between styles would have been more apparent. Ship's sailed, tho. :-)

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Since 2002, when Matt Larsen wrote FM3-25.150, a modern combative art based on BJJ has been official Army doctrine.

Rorion and Royce Gracie has even trained Army Rangers from the 75th who then go on to become instructors.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Will alter.

Where you are, is Systema taught as a hobby with an emphasis on the historical roots, or is it taught as a self-defence method?

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Douglas Cole:

I hear you and agree about the point of soldiers having to learn the most efficient and simple techniques if they are to be effective. That is one of the reasons Matt Larsen based his modern combatives style on BJJ. He felt that it was a style that worked in reality and if modified by people with actual combat experience, it should be very effective after only a short training period.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Interesting. Back in the 70s, I think, Michael Echanis was a Special Forces guy who was also a high-ranking Hwa Rang Do practitioner. He also trained a lot of those guys in Hwa Rang Do, which was making inroads into the Army community until Mr Echanis was killed in South America. Chief Master Taejoon "Henry" Lee has since given a few seminars and "sulsa camps" to various Army guys and special forces types, but I don't know if anything has really stuck.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

I believe it. Grappling is good that way. You can do it as a sport, or as "the real thing," with only a few alterations in how you do things. Not that people are never injured practicing or competing, but in my experience (with HRD grappling, rather than BJJ) you know that when grappling with a friend, that "I could have hit him in the face, or raked his eyes, right then." Or "He could have ripped off my ear instead of thumbing the #7 pressure point."

Striking arts are a bit different--you sort of have to deliver the actual beat down, which makes it hard to gauge their "real life" effectivenes without going all out and risking real life injury. I'm sure there are lots of people willing to do such, but at that level it's personality based, rather than strictly style based.

Actually, backing up, a lot (most?) of it is probably still the fighter, rather than the style, unless the style is totally craptastic.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Cole:

I agree one hundred percent that most of it is the fighter, not the style.

However, such a view is kind of hard to represent in a role-playing game. The way my players deal with it is to choose a style for their PCs and then seek every opportunity to learn new styles and manouvres. They pick and choose mechanics from many styles, aiming for a perfect fit to their character and also what they perceive is most useful under GURPS rules. Currently, that means that one is a 3rd dan Hapkido master, one is a Praying Mantis Kung Fu practisioner who also trains extensively in improvised weaponry and has developed his own knife-fighting form and the last one started play having learnt Jujitsu/grappling in a police acedemy and on the street and then moved on to learn Army combative training, Muy Thai and Pakua (for meditative purposes and to try to get rid of the psychological damage his work inflicts).

The one with least impressive credentials in martial arts (the former cop) is probably the one who does best in the field. The Kung Fu/Knife-fighter is a close second, probably because of his Unfazable advantage. He never loses his cool and he never flinches at inflicting pain on his opponent.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Well, yeah. :-)

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Any ideas for rules to implement it?

I use frequent Will checks in combat to represent stress and adrenaline. Failures indicate tunnel vision, loss of fine motor control etc.

I also require Will rolls when people are hurt, with a failure having adverse consequences such as trying to break contact.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Combat SAMBO Cost: 20/-

Primary skills: Brawling, Judo, Karate, Wrestling
Secondary skills: Body Language, Style Analysis
Optional skills: Judo Sport, Wrestling Sport
Manoeuvres: Aggressive Parry, Arm lock, Breakfall, Choke Hold, Disarming, Elbow Strike, Eye Gouging, Finger Lock, Ground Fighting (Any primary skill), Head Butt, Head Lock, Hit Location (Brawling or Karate), Knee Strike, Neck Snap, Riposte (Any primary skill), Stamp Kick

This is a purely martial version of the Russian martial art, focusing more on strikes than the sporting versions. No armed techniques are included in this write-up, but some practitioners are trained in the same weapons as included in the Systema style.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Krav Maga Cost: 15/-

Primary skills: Karate, Judo [2 points]
Secondary skills: Body Language
Optional skills: Brawling, Knife, Short sword, Tonfa
Manoeuvres: Aggressive Parry, Arm lock, Choke Hold, Disarming [2 points], Elbow Strike, Head Butt, Head Lock, Hit Location (Karate) [2 points], Knee Strike, Riposte (Karate) [2 points], Stamp Kick

This represents the combative version of Krav Maga; not any McDojo self-defence variants. Israeli commandoes also learn sentry-removal techniques, bayonet fighting and other elite military skills.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

let me think on this.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Of course.

Did you think that thugs with horned helmets would break down your door if you took more than a couple of moments to answer? ;)

What do you think of Combat SAMBO and Krav Maga, above? I am a bit worried that Systema and Combat SAMBO seem indisguishable apart from the armed elements, but I just don't know enough to differentiate.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

I don't know much about them in Real Life. Many styles are probably indistinguihsable in GURPS. I hope the new Martial Arts book is unafraid in its text to have this be reflected.

For example, while TKD and Shotokan are easily distinguishable by looking at the details of how people do things (like walk, or throw certain kicks), in GURPS terms, both are probably Karate only (or nearly so) with many maneuvers in common, if not all of them. they're both linear striking arts.

I imagine that a lot of the combatives, which will stress a mix of quick-n-dirty practicality and getting from distance to on-the-ground-and-broken-bad-guy, will look a lot alike in a low-ish resolution system.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

A few random thoughts:

Any system that models the reality of fights/combats will be heavy on perception and fright checks, with failures resulting in tunnel vision, getting blindsided, and (for fright checks) cowering, backing up, or going all-out-defensive as a reflex action. Even after four and a half years of martial arts training--sometimes five days a week--I sometimes have a hard time controlling the flinch reaction when someone tries to go upside my head.

So, each turn somone attacks you, you'd need to roll at some penalty, which maybe could be bought off, or else have some sort of negative reaction. Unless you trained for it, you'd default to tunnel vision, rather than being aware of many opponents (this might actually be a nice distinguisher between certain one-on-one arts and those intended for use in a "field of battle" or "potentially multiple opponents" type of fight.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

See new thread on this subject. It would be nice if you could repost this there.

Thanks a bunch.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

I agree, the way 3e did styles, many styles that are quite different in real life would be almost identical in stats.

Yes, in 3e MA, Shotokan Karate and TKD are not dissimilar.

If you examine the stats I've given the combatives here, you'll see a lot more similarities than you'll see differences, that's certainly true. ;)

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

For the MCMAP as a Marine I wouldn't try to convert it as a style as it is more of a mix of Karate, Judo, Boxing and Groundfighting. This system is made to either take your oppent down with throws or using controling techniques or break bones and joints then finish the enemy off. Since they have "devloped" this program in the Marines they have changed the manuevers manytimes so each instructor has a diferant view and will teach diferant manuvers every time. This "form" is more of barfighting 101 than an actual style. I find the new MCMAP instrcutors funny sometimes when they think they have a black belt in a actual form of Martial Arts and now teachers of a form. The first instructor is a Green belt and takes about 3 months of training to meet the minuimn requirment to go to become a instructor and about 2 months of schooling to get the instructor title.
In all honestly this was devolped with the idea of the Korean Rock Marines in mind. Basicaly all the korean Marines had basic training as kids and teenagers in Tiawondo(sp) and when they joined the military they got more advance training in hand to hand combat.
Since 1996 they have been revamping the Line training or hand to hand combat system for the Marines. The last system broke down the manuevers down to basic punches, kicks, throws, chokes,bone breaks and armbars. From there you would make you own combos to take out your enemy. MCMAP came along after that and made a "belt system" mixed with diferant views and discplines from Karete, Judo, Boxing and groundfighting which is still flawed.
In short don't believe the hype on this system and work on actual styles that exist and have a well thought out system of teaching and training.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

I'm afraid the answer is "both": several practioner's around here, including our main trainer, are policemen (various departments & ranks: drugs, street patrol, vice, etc.) - a fact that leads to a very pragmatic orientation with lots of self-defence and improvised weapon training, including combat and sd training in difficult everyday environments like on a staircase, in a car, in a room full of tables and chairs, etc. OTOH there are many russian immigrants living around here (e.g. the wife of our main trainer is from Russia - and though she's rather tiny she's a very active practioner) who like the historical side of Systema, especially the link to the martial training of the cozaks, thus the whip and broadsword training. But even the "historical" parts are always tested for practicality and "real-life" usefulness: the "combat" aspect is definitely seen as more important than the "historical reenactment" side of Systema.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

While not being a style in the sense that some people use it when discussing martial arts, it fully meets the GURPS definition.

It is intended to be learned quickly and be reasonably effective. No one is claiming that a couple of months of MCMAP training can make someone as proficient in martial arts as years of dedication in another art, but for the purpose which MCMAP is meant to be used there is no need for the student to know complex and difficult moves.

The style is supposed to be about teaching simple and intuitive moves so that in the event of a hand-to-hand contact, the Marine has the confidence and ability to handle himself. Making Marines into mystical masters of the martial arts was never a part of the plan.

Is there anything you would change of the list of manuevers?

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Can you give me any guidence on what the differences between Systema and Combat SAMBO are?

Literature on the subject appears to vary but most sources agree that the arts are seperate and have been for some time, but that there were times when Spetnaz may have trained in elements of both.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Nah, you're just a wuss... :)

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Well for the "dumb" green belt instuctors they do believe themselves as mystical masters. For the actual instructors who have a martial arts background and have actual Black Belts in a actual form they are a challenge to spar with.

As for maunuevers are you asking about for the game or for the actual system?

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

For the game. This is, after all, a role-playing games forum. ;)

There will always be people who believe that whatever they have learned (whether that be their collage degree or a martial arts style) is the sum total of useful knowledge in the world and therefore, anything they do not know is not worth knowing. That doesn't have anything to do with one particular form of fighting as much as it is a facet of human nature.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Go with basic Judo throw.
Blood Choke
BasicArmbar
Basic punch
Basic kick
Basic punch combo
Leg Sweep but criples target becuase severed achiles tendon.
Basic joint break
Basic choke
Basic block and counter
Basic disarm
basic weapon improvision ie tent pole, shovel, helmet
Basic dodge vrs armed and unarmed enemies
basic knife
Basic body hardening
basic knee and elbow strikes
Basic groundfighting
and basic counters to all these manuvers
this would be the first belt of training

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

AFAIK *today* Combat Sambo is a competitive sport form with locks, holds, throws, kicks & punches - no weapon training, no historical aspect. There's also Sambo Wrestling (sport form with throws, locks, holds) and Sambo self-defense. Originally, right after WWII, Anatolij Harlapijew had separated Sambo into two distinct types: the sports-orientated Sambo Wrestling (rus. "bor’ba sambo") which served as base for the whole discipline, and Combat Sambo (rus. "bojewoje sambo") which should become the foundation for police and military hth training in Soviet Russia.
Can you read German? In this case you should have a look at this site:
http://www.rma-systema.de

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

That's my point, really. It's difficult to control for some people--I might hazard MOST people, and it takes a lot of time and discipline to NOT look away.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

I knew this much, but thanks. I checked out the webpage as well.

Combat SAMBO today is still supposed to be taught as a combative, as well as a competitive sport. I am aware that most versions of it would teach Wrestling Sport and Judo Sport, but the style I attempted to stat out here was one likely to be known by a former Spetznaz trooper.

If you look at my stats above for Systema and Combat SAMBO, is there anything that should be changed?

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

No bayonet training?

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

That's a tan belt move? Where the hell was I? The only leg sweep I learned was non-crippling.

You're forgetting all the bayonet, knife, and weapon of opportunity stuff.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

He did mention knife and weapon of opportunity. No mention of bayonet, oddly, but I feel pretty confident that the style does teach Spear skill. ;)

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Hey, did when I learned it.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

On balance, happy with the write up?

Have any ideas about how 4e would do it?

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Here is a collected list of the styles I set out to stat in 3e terms. Comments requested and anyone wanting to convert this to 4e would be welcome.

ATK Cost: 11/-

Primary skills: Brawling, Judo
Secondary skills: Karate, Pressure Points
Optional skills: Shortsword, Tonfa
Manoeuvres: Arm Lock, Choke Hold, Disarming [2 points], Elbow Strike, Hit Location (Brawling) [2 points], Knee Strike

The hand-to-hand style used by the German GSG-9 is a fairly typical combative art in that it utilises the natural reflexes of the body and is meant to be learnt quickly by a person whose primary focus is armed combat. This style features fairly extensive training in vulnerable points of the human body, represented here by the quasi-cinematic Pressure Points skill. GMs disliking that skill are free to drop it from the write-up.

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Cost: 11/-

Primary skills: Judo, Wrestling
Secondary skills: Brawling
Optional skills: Intimidation, Judo Sport, Tournament Law, Wrestling Sport
Manoeuvres: Arm lock [2 points], Breakfall, Choke Hold [2 points], Ground Fighting [2 points], Head lock

This represents a fairly hard, full-contact version of the sport. A softer, more sportsmanlike version might switch the Sport versions of Judo and Wrestling to Primary skills and drop Brawling. US Army personnel might learn this version with the addition of Knife and Bayonet training.

Combat SAMBO Cost: 19/-

Primary skills: Brawling, Judo, Wrestling
Secondary skills: Body Language, Karate
Optional skills: Judo Sport, Wrestling Sport
Manoeuvres: Aggressive Parry, Arm lock, Breakfall, Choke Hold, Disarming, Elbow Strike, Eye Gouging, Finger Lock, Ground Fighting (Any primary skill), Head Butt, Head Lock, Hit Location (Brawling or Karate), Knee Strike, Neck Snap, Riposte (Any primary skill), Stamp Kick

This is a purely martial version of the Russian grappling martial art, focusing more on strikes than the sporting versions. No armed techniques are included in this write-up, but some practitioners are trained in the same weapons as included in the Systema style.

Krav Maga Cost: 15/-

Primary skills: Karate, Judo [2 points]
Secondary skills: Body Language
Optional skills: Brawling, Knife, Short sword, Tonfa
Manoeuvres: Aggressive Parry, Arm lock, Choke Hold, Disarming [2 points], Elbow Strike, Head Butt, Head Lock, Hit Location (Karate) [2 points], Knee Strike, Riposte (Karate) [2 points], Stamp Kick

This represents the combative version of Krav Maga; not any McDojo self-defence variants. It is extremely effective and brutal, being a composite of several other hard martial art styles as well as teaching joint-breaking moves and takedowns. Israeli commandoes also learn sentry-removal techniques, bayonet fighting and other elite military skills.

MCMAP Cost: 12*/-

Primary skills: Brawling, Judo, Spear
Secondary skills: Knife, Karate
Optional skills: Axe/Mace, Short sword, Staff, Tonfa
Manoeuvres: Arm Lock, Breakfall, Disarming, Close-combat (Knife or Spear), Elbow Strike, Hit Location (Brawling or Spear), Knee Strike, Retain Weapon (Rifle), Stamp Kick

*If we assume 1/2 point levels for most average manoeuvres.

The successor to the LINE system was developed in response to a perceived need for a variable lethality combative style. With the increased focus by the US armed forces on counter-insurgency, operations-other-than war and the need to deal with civilians in the theatres of war; it was felt that Marines needed to be better able to subdue people without killing them. The style also teaches lethal strikes, joint-breaking grapples and even sentry-removal techniques. It also includes bayonet training, mostly for morale purposes and to develop a “killer mentality”.

Old Style Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Cost: 10/-.*

Primary skills: Wrestling, Brawling.
Secondary skills: Judo.
Optional skills: Intimidation.
Manoeuvres: Arm lock, Choke Hold, Elbow Strike, Ground Fighting (Brawling), Ground Fighting (Wrestling) [2], Head Butt, Head Lock

This is the classic old style BJJ, as it was taught and fought in Rio's streets back in the old days. The emphasis is on achieving a superior position on the ground and striking the opponent, with punches, elbows and head butts. It's similar to today's mixed martial arts styles, but rougher. There is some interesting footage in Gracie in Action tapes.

*Luther’s work. I removed the Leg Grapple manoeuvre as GURPS rules state that it cannot be improved.

S.C.A.R.S. Cost: 6/-

Primary skills: Brawling
Secondary skills: Karate
Optional skills: None
Manoeuvres: Aggressive Parry*, Elbow Strike, Hit Location (Brawling), Knee Strike, Riposte (Brawling)

*Note, the style does not teach traditional blocks or parries and hence every parry using S.C.A.R.S. is automatically an Aggressive Parry manoeuvre at the normal default. This costs no points.

At it's core, this style seems to be an aggressive striking combative style, developed for military and self-defence applications. The advertisements surrounding this style are mostly false and the claims made by proponents are patently ridiculous. It is not the "Secret Art of Killing, taught only to Navy SEALs"(TM) Nevertheless, the style was taught to BUD/S trainees at one point in the 80’s and that implies that there are at least some marginally useful techniques. This version of the style is presented as being more helpful than no training at all, but GMs are free to vary it for their campaigns.

Sport Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Cost: 10/-*

Primary skills: Judo Sport.
Secondary skills: Wrestling Sport, Tournament Law (BJJ).
Optional skills: Brawling.
Manoeuvres: Arm lock [2], Breakfall, Choke Hold [2], Ground Fighting (Judo) [2], Head Lock

The split between vale tudo and sport oriented practitioners became serious in 70s when competitions got increasingly common. Later Carlson Jr. was very active in developing the system and new rules. This style is usually taught in modern academies, it relies heavily on guard work and submissions.

*Credit goes to Luther. I removed the Wrist lock technique as Arm lock includes the ability to Wrist lock in GURPS.

Submission Wrestling Cost: 7/-*

Primary skills: Wrestling Sport.
Secondary skills: Judo Sport, Tournament Law (SW).
Optional skills: Brawling.
Manoeuvres: Arm lock [2], Choke Hold, Ground Fighting (Wrestling) [2] Head Lock

Basically BJJ without the gi. Less grip means less technique, and in turn greater importance of strength and mass, less throws and more takedowns. Chokes are limited too, at least compared to BJJ and Judo.

*Credit goes to Luther. I removed the Wrist lock technique as Arm lock includes the ability to Wrist lock in GURPS.

Systema Cost: 23/-

Primary skills: Brawling, Judo, Karate
Secondary Skills: Knife and any three of the following Axe/Mace, Broadsword, Spear, Shield, Short Sword, Staff, Two-handed Axe/Mace, Whip
Optional skills: Other weapons, Body Language, Scrounging, Wrestling
Manoeuvres: Aggressive Parry, Arm Lock, Breakfall, Choke Hold, Close-combat (Knife), Disarming (Judo), Elbow Strike, Eye Gouging (Karate), Finger Lock, Ground Fighting (Judo), Head Butt, Head Lock, Hit Location (Brawling, Karate or Knife), Knee Strike, Neck Snap, Stamp Kick

Systema is a style used by Russian special forces and is reported to be very effective. It is not a philosophical or competitive art and the focus is strictly on harming the opponent and ending the fight. This version of Systema assumes that the various armed techniques taught by the Spetznaz are included and as it is presented here, most people would never master the style but instead only learn the basics (covered by Military Hand to Hand).

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

In so much as I am happy with the 3e styles rules, sure.
Perhaps styles will act like learnable Talents, giving bonuses to the skills and techniques of the style. But I really have no idea, we'll have to wait for Martial Arts I'm afraid.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Good.

That would be a good way to go about it.

Waiting is definately not one of my favourite activities. ;)

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Rember the leg sweep is calf on calf for training purposes in real life you use the cutting edge of your heel and server the enemies achiles tendon. In Kuwait when we did the first Boyonet with rifle the training was more of grey belt training at the time than tan belt. To me it didn't matter becuase of my previous training most of the rifle disarms was taught to me in a Riot control class for a MEU.

Like I said diferant instructors teach diferant things and Quantico cant seem to make up thier mind on what they want to teach Marines at what belt level. I leraned stuff that you have to be a green belt or grey belt to learn now so to me it dont matter I am not familar with the system so ts hard to suggest what would work best.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Yeah, I remember something about that? Is that actually doable?

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Probably not "sever", but it can cause some serious damage. You can run away afterwards with little fear of being pursued ;)

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Stomps to the back of the ankle with a booted foot will do that. It isn't likely to sever anything...I chalk that up with other wild claims of terrifying effectiveness of precision blows. But it'll do the job nicely in terms of putting someone down long enough to shoot him, stab him, or double-stomp him on the head.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

What?

Ever seen a real Fist of Death or Seven Star Mantis Style Claw?

You should.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

In GURPS terms, a very strong man trained in the style might cripple the leg with a good kick?

That sounds reasonable and that implies that the move could be simulated either by just the Karate skill or the Stamp kick technique.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Yeah, but probably a stamp kick to the foot models it better in most cases.

Re: Combatives martial arts styles
 

Is that move and others like it common enough for it to warrant me adding the Stamp Kick manoeuvre or is it something that can be attempted at a default from Karate or Brawling easily enough? The default is just a -1 or -2.