IQ points, talents, spells, XP
 

I keep wanting to veer off into house rules territory out there, so I thought I'd start a topic in here for open discussion of how the general readership would house rule it.

I'm thinking of something even cleaner than my other house rule: characters start with 44 (or 46, or 48, or however many...) character points. Out of those character points you buy your attributes, talents, and spells. If you're a hero, spells cost 3 points per, and talents cost their listed cost; if you're a wizard, spells cost 1 per, and talents cost double, with exceptions as listed. If you go above 34 total points in attributes, any attributes above that cost double for each point above 34. In other words, that 35th point would cost 2, the 36th would cost 4, etc. It's possible this threshold could be 32 (or "however many").

So you could go attribute heavy, if you wanted to spend the points; you could go attribute light and talent or spell heavy; whatever combination you wanted.

You would be allowed to buy spells or talents that you don't meet the prerequisites for; you just wouldn't be able to use them until you do.

XP would buy you character points at a flat rate of 100 XP per character point. The cost progression for total points in attributes above 34 (or whatever the threshold ends up being) continues to apply. Talents and spells continue to have their regular cost.

That means "racial talents" and "special abilities" would come out of your initial however many points. For instance, the Silver Slime just has Lightning as a species ability; the writeup for that monster even specifies that it works just like the spell, including ST cost.

Re: IQ points, talents, spells, XP
 

I like that character point approach. I'm not so sure about the numbers and costs though.

I like the official rules/changes regarding IQ only matters during character creation and XP buys stats, talents, and spells after that. I will definitely change the XP costs to the ones below though...

Added attribute point / XP cost
33 / 200
34 / 400
35 / 600
36 / 800
37 / 1200
38 / 2000
39 / 3000
40th and later / 5000

Talent(1) costs 400XP
Talent(2) costs 800XP
Talent(3) costs 1200XP

You may notice that the cost of going from a 32-point character to a 35-point character (3-point increase) is the same as the cost of a 3-point Talent.

Re: IQ points, talents, spells, XP
 

Aptitudes: These go along with the above. These would replace the hero/wizard split, and would be groupings; Combat Aptitude, Magical Aptitude, Social Aptitude, Scientific Aptitude, Criminal Aptitude, and so on. The first of these would cost 0, the second would cost 1, the third would cost 2, and so on. Essentially, everything is expensive (talents double their listed cost, spells triple), but if you have an aptitude that includes it, it's normal cost. (This might replace my "cheap list" and "expensive list" idea.)

Re: IQ points, talents, spells, XP
 

Those might change. I at least wanted to have the basic character points idea, and doubling above a certain attribute total.

I was composing a long post to go into the IQ/Talents thread, complete with analysis of costs, and comparisons of starting points with XP. That thought led to "Why not build everything with XP," which led to "No, character points," and "100 XP equals one character point..." I also realized that as someone else mentioned somewhere, I can't remember who or on which thread, Talents is effectively a derived stat based on IQ. I thought, why not make it its own stat... and that other post evaporated, and this one asserted itself.

(Less disjointedly: if you take the XP chart literally, and extend it downward, that means each of the first 32 points you start with are effectively worth 100 XP each. Except that the ones you spend on IQ are effectively worth 600 XP each, because they give you +1 IQ and 500 XP worth of Talents or Spells. If you don't take IQ 16, you're leaving points on the table. Logically, that means we should separate talent/spell points from IQ entirely. Still thinking in terms of XP, I tried to keep attribute points at 100 and talents at 500, but that made the exchange rate wonky; the next step was to make them all character points, and buy talents as well as attributes at 1/1; the cost of attributes increase above 34, to match with the XP progression, but talents are always 1/1. The back-conversion of 100 XP to 1 character point was obvious.)

Re: IQ points, talents, spells, XP
 

Interesting idea, but what is your problem statement? Are you trying to 'fix' something or simply creating a variant character creation mechanic?

Re: IQ points, talents, spells, XP
 

The problem statement is that during character creation, points spent on IQ effectively get you 600 XP worth of "stuff" (e.g. 1 IQ plus 500 XP worth of talents or spells), while points spent on ST or DX effectively get you 100 XP worth of stuff (e.g. 1 ST or 1 DX), but that relationship breaks after character creation. From a cost benefit standpoint, there's no reason to have characters that aren't ST 8 DX 8 IQ 16, and invest all of your XP into ST or DX as needed, because you'll always be behind the curve on talents and spells.

Re: IQ points, talents, spells, XP
 

Oh. Well, I've got an easy solution to that:

New (human) characters start with ST8, DX8, IQ8 and 8 points to distrubute. New characters start with 10 points of talents/spells. After creation, talents/spells cost 500XP or more.

Re: IQ points, talents, spells, XP
 

OK, but your premise doesn't take into account the fact that ST and DX are arguably just as critical (if not moreso) even w/o the 'extra' benefit of being used to purchase talents. I believe that character survivability and martial effectiveness have just as much inherent weight as what you get from IQ.

Re: IQ points, talents, spells, XP
 

I agree. I concur.

Re: IQ points, talents, spells, XP
 

If they're worth more, then okay, but make them cost more also.

If ST and DX are just as critical, why, during character creation, does each cost 100 XP, but IQ cost 600 XP? Or why is each point of ST or DX "only" worth 100 points, while each point of IQ is worth 600?

The assumption, if we take the XP for attributes chart literally, is that at "34 points and below" every attribute point is worth 100 XP. Except that buying IQ after character creation doesn't give you the same benefit as it does during character creation.

Why is 1 IQ worth 600 points during character creation, but 100 points after? Or, rather, why does it get you 600 points worth of value (e.g. +1 IQ and +1 talent/spell) but only 100 points worth after (+1 IQ)?

Re: IQ points, talents, spells, XP
 

Either IQ is massively overvalued during character creation, and of normal value after (to the tune of 6 to 1 against ST or DX), or it's of normal value during and borderline worthless after.

A character with ST 8 DX 8 IQ 16 is effectively 800 XP + 800 XP + 1600 XP (IQ) + 8000 XP (talents/spells), for 11,200 XP, while a character with IQ 8 and the other 24 points in ST and DX is effectively 7,200 XP.

That's a big difference. 4000 XP, or eight talent/spells worth!

Edit: Or, the third option, is that talents are way too expensive, at 500 XP per. Maybe they should be less? Say, 100 XP per, bringing them on par with ST, DX, and IQ?

Re: IQ points, talents, spells, XP
 

I know this is a separate topic, but that's actually one of my issues w/ the new rules that try to quantify the cost of talents in terms of XP. By doing that, the inequity you see now is created, but it isn't an accurate reflection of the intent or relative 'weight' of the stats when you look at them holistically.

To me, it is the unintended consequence of the XP for talents rule.

Re: IQ points, talents, spells, XP
 

Did you see my other post? Might have missed with multiple posts occurring within a matter of 60 seconds...

All characters start with 10 points of talents/spells. Done. IQ factors in no where except as a requirement of the talent/spell.

Re: IQ points, talents, spells, XP
 

I think I did miss that. That's actually very close to what I'm looking at, except that all of the points come out of the same pool. If we make each attribute point two character points, and each talent/spell one character point, then 32 attributes plus 10 talents come to 74 points, or 75 to make it a nice round number.

But yours has the benefit of being a good bit simpler than mine, and the point values line up closer with the old school values.

Re: IQ points, talents, spells, XP
 

Precisely why I thought it was worth attention :)

Re: IQ points, talents, spells, XP
 

So with a 32 and 10 rule, the only question left is: What happens if some of that 10 is unspent?

Answer: You can shift 1 point of it to stats. Otherwise, use it or lose it.

This might result in players taking some talents/spells they may not have otherwise chosen. I think that's great.

Re: IQ points, talents, spells, XP
 

The reason why all characters start with Learning 10 is that they all start the same age and so have had the same amount of time to practice spells, swinging swords, singing sad songs and so on.

Re: IQ points, talents, spells, XP
 

Sounds good to me. But age is just a number :)

Some folks have more experiences by a certain age than others. :)

Re: IQ points, talents, spells, XP
 

Thus we have the return of the bright young apprentice who's lugging around a library in his backpack.

Re: IQ points, talents, spells, XP
 

Not sure what that is supposed to mean. My backpack is mostly empty! :)

Re: IQ points, talents, spells, XP
 

Oh. I think I see what you mean now. ITL says "you may assume a character is 20 years of age" when starting. The key words there are "may assume".

You "may also" randomly determine starting age if you want. Something like "18 + 1d6". Of course, all of this assumes they are human...

This leads back to my position that just because they all start with 10 points of skills doesn't mean they have to all be the same age.

Re: IQ points, talents, spells, XP
 

XP cost to buy additional attributes = as listed in ITL p. 45; additional IQ does not give additional points to buy talents or spells.

XP cost to buy additional talents or spells:

25 XP times the minimum IQ for the talent or spell...

...minus 25 XP per point of IQ the character has above the minimum IQ...

...with a minimum cost of 100 XP...

...per point it costs.

An IQ 10 wizard learning an IQ 8 spell, base cost of (25 x 8) 200 XP, the wizard is 2 above the minimum IQ (2 x 25 = 50) for (200 - 50) 150 XP, so he pays 150 XP.

An IQ 10 fighter learning an IQ 8 spell... base cost of 200 XP, the fighter is 2 above the minimum IQ, for 150 XP, and as a fighter his cost for spells is tripled, so (150 x 3) 450 XP.

An IQ 15 wizard learning an IQ 9 talent that costs 2 points. Base cost of 225 XP, the wizard is 6 above the minimum IQ (25 x 6 = 150), for (225 - 150 = 75, minimum 100) 100 XP per point; it's a 2-point talent (100 x 2 = 200), but the wizard pays double that, for a total of (200 x 2) 400 XP. An IQ 15 fighter learning that IQ 9 talent would pay 200 XP.

This works for me.

Re: IQ points, talents, spells, XP
 

Setting aside the first sentence which I consider to be a truly flawed rule change...

I like the logic, hate the extra math (I oppose most math on principle ;)).

Re: IQ points, talents, spells, XP
 

Why not a simple cost to add your Nth skill point is 20 * N?

Combine with Attribute advancement of 100, 150, 200, 250, 300, 350 ....