Engaged in mid move
 

What happens when you run past an enemy who isn't seen because of shadow, invisibility or blindness? If somebody tried this on me I'd use "Attacks Of Opportunity"(t.m.) But only if I could find a d20 somewhere.

My suggestion is that anybody can choose to run past any figure they like. If the ignored figure isn't an image then it can attack the undefending runner as if this was a rear shot, regardless of facing. The runner then stops in their current hex, if they were aware of the attack. The former runner can then choose any option consistent with the number of hexes they ran to that point, other than dodging. (Dodging needs to be announced when the figure moves their first hex.)

Speaking of dodging this ought to be stated as a cost of one additional MP per hex entered in order to play nice with the other movement adjustments. (Dodging carefully into an hex with a downed figure, etc.)

Re: Engaged in mid move
 

̶I̶n̶ ̶o̶f̶f̶i̶c̶i̶a̶l̶ ̶T̶F̶T̶,̶ ̶I̶'̶d̶ ̶s̶a̶y̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶f̶i̶g̶u̶r̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶s̶h̶a̶d̶o̶w̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶e̶i̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶y̶ ̶h̶i̶d̶d̶e̶n̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶e̶n̶g̶a̶g̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶f̶i̶g̶u̶r̶e̶ ̶r̶u̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶b̶y̶,̶ ̶o̶r̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶w̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶m̶s̶e̶l̶v̶e̶s̶ ̶(̶p̶a̶r̶t̶l̶y̶)̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶e̶n̶g̶a̶g̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶m̶o̶v̶e̶r̶,̶ ̶s̶t̶o̶p̶p̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶h̶i̶m̶ ̶(̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶c̶h̶o̶o̶s̶e̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶ ̶o̶p̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶m̶o̶v̶e̶m̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶p̶o̶i̶n̶t̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶o̶w̶)̶.̶
̶
̶I̶f̶ ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶t̶r̶i̶e̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶m̶o̶v̶e̶ ̶I̶N̶T̶O̶ ̶a̶ ̶s̶h̶a̶d̶o̶w̶ ̶h̶e̶x̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶h̶i̶d̶d̶e̶n̶ ̶i̶n̶s̶i̶d̶e̶,̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶b̶a̶b̶l̶y̶ ̶l̶e̶a̶r̶n̶ ̶i̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶o̶c̶c̶u̶p̶i̶e̶d̶,̶ ̶b̶o̶u̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶s̶t̶o̶p̶ ̶m̶o̶v̶e̶m̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶n̶e̶x̶t̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶s̶h̶a̶d̶o̶w̶ ̶h̶e̶x̶.̶

Ok, I was somewhat wrong above. According to (basic new edition) Wizard page 9, as soon as someone becomes adjacent to a hidden figure, the hidden figure's position is revealed. Usual engagement rules would then apply.

As for house rules where you can ignore engagement but let your opponent attack you in consequence, I think that's a very good sort of house rule. I've seen it in various flavors (by others and myself) - the main issue tends to be people wanting to use it to go get side/rear attacks on people who would otherwise be screened by allies.

Re: Engaged in mid move
 

Can a human inside a shadow hex see out of it? Can a creature with Darkvision see through or out of a shadow hex? Is this specified in the rules somewhere?

Re: Engaged in mid move
 

According to the rules in the Wizard PDF, a hidden figure is revealed if it "becomes adjacent at any time to an enemy figure" (among other reasons). That would include during enemy movement, and also if it's standing in a Shadow hex.

Allowing the hider in Shadow to try to avoid the moving enemy and stay hidden might make for an entertaining house rule.

There's a note in the section that says invisible movement would be better handled by a referee, as with the GM in TFT. So those rules might update these.

Wizard, p18: "A figure inside a shadow can see nothing, unless he has Mage Sight."

Re: Engaged in mid move
 

Not without Mage Sight or some other ability to see in the dark. Magical Shadow hexes require Mage Sight not just Dark Vision. It is called out in the original description of the Dark Vision spell in the original Advanced Wizard. Basic Wizard doesn't have mundane darkness or a Dark Vision spell, just Mage Sight.

Re: Engaged in mid move
 

Yeah, that's what I was thinking when I wrote the reply I crossed out above. I usually play with the advanced rules and a GM, so... yeah.

Re: Engaged in mid move
 

Thanks guys. I don't have my new PDFs yet. My old copies are at home and my memory of them isn't that good. I thought I remembered reading that you couldn't see into or out of a shadow hex without some sort of magical ability.

The reason I asked: How would the figure in the shadow hex know someone was running by him if he can't see out? I suppose he could hear the movement as it passed by but it would seem too late for him to respond to it at that point.

As said, I don't have my PDFs yet. I can only go by what you've told me but I wonder: Is a "hidden figure" the same as a "concealed figure" or "invisible figure"? I wonder if it was intended for that hidden figure rule to apply in these situations? It doesn't seem right that a figure inside the shadow hex cannot see out of it, yet a figure passing by can see the figure in the shadow hex.

Re: Engaged in mid move
 

The same rules in Wizard are used for invisible movement as for movement in shadow hexes.

If you attack a figure in a shadow hex, even if you know it's there because you just caused it to be put back on the board by movement, you still have the -6 DX "because you can't see it". The shadowed target doesn't become visible to the moving character or anyone else. It gets replaced on the board for the sake of the hidden movement rules, which is not the same thing as becoming visible.

Perhaps Skarg can remind us of the old ITL version of rules about shadow, which might cover the more general, out-of-combat effects.

Re: Engaged in mid move
 

I think the additional rules on shadow and hidden movement in the original full advanced rules are scant and not much different, except for the idea that if you have a GM and only the GM's figures are hidden, he can just make notes of where they are. The AM rules suggest that if the players use hidden movement, it may be best to bring in another referee or adversary player to get the full hidden movement effect.

But even the AM rules are about the same. Being adjacent a foe just reveals its location (I think mainly for the meta-game reasons that hcobb started this thread about - you need to let the location be known or else the Engagement rule system breaks down and this is a clean simple way to address that). I think it's an ok solution that abstractly reflects whatever specific thing might have that effect in the game world.

However, when GM'ing with creative thoughtful critical players who want to get into specifically what is happening, then the GM may want to elaborate and indulge some exceptions, hence my initial reaction. I would rather house-rule an exception in order to not have to make PCs always have to stop for engagement, or not be able to say they stand still in the magic Shadow and hide, etc. It's just that the more the GM accommodates logical changes to the rules, the more they may need to do that, such as what exactly happens if another character tries to move through a character they didn't know was there, or whatever.

Re: Engaged in mid move
 

There's also the visible case. We know what happens when a figure tries to move into an image, but not when they run past an image. Or run past a figure they wrongly assumed to be an image.

Re: Engaged in mid move
 

Thanks again, guys. What Anaraxes said sort of cleared it up for me (I think). The guy passing by the shadow hex can't actually see the guy inside it (I think). But he can make a reasonable assumption that there is something inside it and decide to attack "into it". Since he can't actually see the foe inside the shadow hex, his attack suffer the -6 penalty.

Likewise, the foe inside the shadow hex can't actually see the guy running by but he can hear him and therefore "attack into the space" from whence the noise came...but he also suffers -6 or some other penalty due to poor visibility.

(I had started a habit of always thinking about attacking spaces instead of their occupants long ago that always served me well for these conundrums. Unfortunately, I had forgotten it.)

Re: Engaged in mid move
 

I don't think you can ever "run past" an enemy figure that you can see and that can see you. Once you have an enemy in your front hex, you are engaged and vice versa.

Re: Engaged in mid move
 

Here is the case for running into a not-really an image. No case for running past it.

Re: Engaged in mid move
 

This question is probably more for the RPG ITL than the war-gamey Melee:

If there is a two-hex wide alleyway and your thief is escaping the city guards, do you always have to engage if you pass the front hex of an unaware enemy?

If the thief is in disguise, and you want him to walk right on past without incident, I guess he still has to stop in the first engaged hex.

An engaged figure is one that is adjacent to an enemy figure, in one of that figure’s front hexes. MELEE page 5.

This would allow the guard a chance to roll to "see through" the disguise?

If he isn’t discovered, next turn the thief can shift 1 hex and try this again. On the third turn, he can shift again. Then he is out of there.

Whereas if he wasn’t forced to stop, as the thief wasn’t recognized as a threat, he could walk right past the guard on the first turn, be 4 hexes beyond on the second walk, and 4 more hexes beyond on the third.

I wouldn’t change the rules for this rare application, but this would be a place for the GameMaster to make a call.

Maybe being disguised, the thief is not an enemy of the guard and is not “engaged”?

Re: Engaged in mid move
 

Engagement is about combat situations where people know they are hostile to each other and are considered dangerous.

If a guard doesn't know someone is an enemy, or isn't ready to do anything about it, or isn't trying to stop someone, then there is no fight going on yet and no one gets engaged.

If you run past a guard though, he's liable to look at you and may get ideas, the outcome and timing of which is up to the GM to figure out.

Re: Engaged in mid move
 

In the arena or in the dungeon, when facing the "monsters" I would always use the engaged when entering the front hex rule

But in a Role Playing Game scenario, when guards in the city are on the lookout for escaping thieves, I would use opposed rolls of 3d using IQ (maybe make the guard roll 4d if the thief is using a disguise) and if the guard rolls lower it's

"Stop right there, let me see your hands" and draw a weapon as soon as the thief enters the guards front hex(s)

Re: Engaged in mid move
 

What is the walking pace for people who are traveling somewhere and not expecting an ambush just this minute?

Re: Engaged in mid move
 

My recollection is 3 hexes per turn (or 1 hex at the labyrinth scale).