Affording racial templates
 

DFA42 says you can use points from discretionary skill choices to pay for a template, and proceed to give the thief as an example of having "another 7 points to improve any previous skill or add any of these new ones"...

Except only the thief ans scout are even written like that. No other profession gets anything but "X of these skills". It seems very unlikely that only these two professions would be allowed to do this.

Let's round up all the possibilities. Can you use points from...

a) "X of these skills", when they are various normal [1] skills;
b) "X of these skills", when they are special skills (e.g. Chi skills for MA);
c) "One of", usually weapon skills or packages;
d) "One point on each of X spells" (at least this one says it's points!)
e) "All of these skills" when a specialization can be selected;

I'm not looking for advice on how to handle it, I'm looking for clarification of how to interpret the intent. (i.e. writing a blog post on it and want to stick to RAW)

Re: Affording racial templates
 

This is why I house-ruled adding 20 points to the character creation budget, putting race selection first and removing the Cat-Folk template for my game. That way my players could play whatever race they wanted, and humans and halflings get a "bonus" for selecting one of the more mundane races.

Re: Affording racial templates
 

Good question. I was wondering along similar lines, too.

Re: Affording racial templates
 

Discretionary skill points are those in the little list at the end of each template. Practical availability is:

Barbarian: 40 points from advantages + 5 points from quirks + 4 discretionary skill points = 49 points.
Bard: 60 points from advantages + 5 points from quirks + 6 discretionary skill points = 71 points.
Cleric: 45 points from advantages + 5 points from quirks + 5 discretionary skill points = 55 points.
Druid: 40 points from advantages + 5 points from quirks + 3 discretionary skill points = 48 points.
Holy Warrior: 50 points from advantages + 5 points from quirks + 5 discretionary skill points = 60 points.
Knight: 60 points from advantages + 5 points from quirks + 5 discretionary skill points = 70 points.
Martial Artist: 40 points from advantages + 5 points from quirks + 3 discretionary skill points = 48 points.
Scout: 40 points from advantages + 5 points from quirks + 8 discretionary skill points = 53 points.
Swashbuckler: 60 points from advantages + 5 points from quirks + 7 discretionary skill points = 72 points.
Thief: 30 points from advantages + 5 points from quirks + 7 discretionary skill points = 42 points.
Wizard: 30 points from advantages + 5 points from quirks + 9 discretionary skill points = 44 points.

Thus, every profession can be of any race. However, I'd only actively encourage this for the bard, knight, and swashbuckler, who have points to burn. And I'd actively discourage this for the druid and martial artist, who will gimp their powers if they actually take this path.

Also look out for overlap, which makes some things more affordable than they might at first appear. Elf and half-elf wizards, for instance, save 5 points on Magery, so the real template cost is 15 points if you're going to play a wizard anyway.

Re: Affording racial templates
 

Thanks! Those are the numbers I was working with in my blog post.

Re: Affording racial templates
 

To be clear, Magery 0 for elven wizards and Combat Reflexes for cat-folk swashbucklers are literally the only overlaps currently in DFRPG, right? Everything else just adds to existing levels at normal cost.

Re: Affording racial templates
 

It "depends" - if you were going to buy up your DX from your default or buy Combat Reflexes (either with discretionary advantage points), then the cat-folk overlaps with those purchases and chips away at the points you needed to allocate. As an example.

Re: Affording racial templates
 

Knights get combat reflexes also

Re: Affording racial templates
 

That makes the template give you something you wanted anyway, but you're still paying the full point cost of the template.

Yes to Knight having Combat Reflexes, I scanned for matches between races and professional advantages before I went back to check who had it.

Re: Affording racial templates
 

The only way your professional template can make your racial template more affordable is if both include an advantage that's (1) mandatory and (2) doesn't come in stackable levels. I believe Combat Reflexes and Magery 0 are the proverbial "it."

Re: Affording racial templates
 

I think it's a matter of perspective. "My character needs to be a Thief with DX 16 and Combat Reflexes" - if that's the case, then it doesn't matter if you're a cat-folk thief or not. It might as well be part of the non-discretionary-spending points, and to you Thief in fact only has the 7 discretionary points in the Skills list to play with. The fact that Cat-Folk effectively costs 5 points (and Elf costs 0 points) is very important.

OTOH if you need a barbarian with Discriminatory Smell and +2 HT, you really only have 14 discretionary points to work with. Dwarf, Half-Ogre, and Half-Orc cost 10 points each, and Halfling is a net -10 (although not an actual disadvantage, it's just super-cheap, and a questionable buy)

Re: Affording racial templates
 

I think you’re basically saying that discretionary points that you have an intended use for are no longer discretionary. They’re still to your discretion, it’s just that you have already made a decision.

Unless I misunderstand, you’re confusing synergy with making a race use up less character points.

Unless we’re talking about a major breakpoint the profession just needs to hit, I guess.

Re: Affording racial templates
 

Incidentally, there's also the problem of overlapping disadvantages. The way it works for social stigma is specifically spelled out on Adventurers p66, but if I make an elf druid, do I have to take -20 points from the first disadvantage list (which includes sense of duty(nature)), or can I only take -5 points from the first list and make up for it with either fewer advantages or more disadvantages from the second list?

Re: Affording racial templates
 

Pg 42, Understanding Racial Templates, sub paragraph Disadvantages.

Re: Affording racial templates
 

From this thread, am I correct in understanding that the profession template should be purchased before the race? Or the race first then the class?

Re: Affording racial templates
 

Yes, the "Class" template is going to be 250 points, which is the standard point amount. The Racial template is bought from out of those class points.

Re: Affording racial templates
 

See "Buying a Racial Template" on page 42 of Adventurers. Basically, you buy the racial package with your advantage budget plus quirks and possibly discretionary skills if necessary.

Re: Affording racial templates
 

It doesn't really matter, but if you pick race first, then when you pick a profession you should immediately figure out how much of your profession budget you have left.

E.g. if I decide to play a half-ogre [20], then decide to play a wizard, I know that I've only got 10/30 points left to buy advantages, and my IQ is also at -1.

Re: Affording racial templates
 

And it's entirely possible that your best 'spell' is 'hit it with a club'.

Re: Affording racial templates
 

"Grunk cast sleep on enemy head. Super effective."

Re: Affording racial templates
 

The lack of cat-person and monk synergy is a little sad.

Re: Affording racial templates
 

Personally, as a gm, I would allow a player to pay for cat-folk by lowering MA DX by one, ST by one. So same DX/striking ST as a human, the race now costs 10 and you get CR, Catfall, and claws out of the race. You wouldn't have much carrying capacity but you could get it back in play.