Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

The fact that the TFT rule-books ended-up sometimes operationally reading like a giant, three-volume MicroQuest, is something I would like to see NEW and FUTURE GAMERS as POTENTIAL BUYERS OF THE PRODUCT spared from - more than anything else.

After all, everyone of us can tweak the rules, regardless of what the final print informs.

TFT as a commercial product upon being re-introduced into today's hobby-market will have the unique opportunity to potentially 'catch-fire' once again, but with a whole new, and much larger audience of Gamers - young Gamers (younger than 50, that is) who probably have no idea TFT even exists; nor may they even care.

The new TFT product presentation and how easy it is to embrace by those-not-already-sold will determine if we - as loyal fans and long-time players - end-up with a privately-printed deluxe re-issue for only ourselves, and the project ends with that, OR, if lightning in a bottle will be caught once again; and the bigger market DEMANDS more supplements, more solos, more modules, and more expansion-sets.

I've been waiting for this since SJ and HT parted ways, and the TFT product went from the #2 FRPG on the market - just behind The Big D - and quickly died a pathetic and whimpering death in the commercial market-place.

Think about the gravity of that statement for a moment: "#2 in the 1980s market-place, at the height of the so-called: "D&D Craze",... only to painfully and spasmodically fade-away with little noise or notice - except by the already-sold fans like you and me.

Frankly, it's time to see some TFT revenge dished-out in terms of recapturing that past sales glory with heavy market penetration - at DOUBLE DAMAGE!

-

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

@Jim Kane: not sure where you're going with this.

Are you concerned about writing style?

Absence of plans to release companion scenarios or adventures?

Longevity as a function of market share?

Something else?

I do think SJ needs to decide -- as he has mentioned in other posts -- whether the focus here is as a drop-in encounter resolution system, or RPG, or both or neither.

I have faith that he will arrive at a cool place, as I'm sure we all do. We wouldn't be here otherwise.

I commented elsewhere once that SJ has a gift for isolating an interesting mechanic, combining it with a genre, and creating a gem of a game.

TFT is exhibit A.

What am I missing?

Cheers.

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

You're not "missing" anything, it is simply that your "aim" is askew from my point.

The "target" who will bring the system back is not "we", being the long-established fan-base; but rather, it is the "them" - being the unaware, unsold, uninitiated huge, Huge, HUGE potential customer-base out there.

I am talking about the importance of acceptance by that kid (under 30 for me LOL!) in the game store who if you asked him right now, would answer you:

"TF,...WTH?"

Those are the people who will keep TFT going after a kick-start re-launch; but ONLY if THEY embrace it, and demand more.

"We" are going to get our TFT back as a re-issue - I have little doubt of that - but that is so short-sighted a goal. I see a larger vision; and always have.

I still believe deeply in this product - as much as I ever have - so-much-so, I want to see it shared it with THE WHOLE GAMING WORLD.

And that should have happened back in 1981, and was poised to happen, and was happening, and then,... didn't happen - and for a number of reasons; and none of which had anything to do with how GREAT a system it is.

So, what could possibly be a sweeter revenge than to see a re-released TFT 'catch-fire' again, and SUSTAIN itself and GROW with a new, HUGE fan-base of young gamers clambering for more, More, MORE!

Sorry if you found my first post abstruse. I hope this follow-up makes my point clear to you about the primary importance of a well-organized (and highly-indexed) rules-set; as "rule-book whiplash" was NOT a TFT selling-point for attracting the masses of Gamers already sold on that other system.

It would really bite to watch a beloved friend die - twice.

Thanks for asking.

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

@ Jim Kane: Ah yes! I see now. Thanks for clarifying.

Agree 100%.

Know what might be neat -- and would get those kid's attention, maybe?

Cards.

Not like Munchkin cards. Not a card game. But cards with monster stats on them. And maybe Action cards players could pick with what they can do during a turn.

We wrote some up for our games. They were helpful but not always used: they weren't very pretty, to be honest. And the layout -- well, we can't all be graphic designers!

Ooo - and maybe some stand up cardboard heros-type figures?

I know - none of this is substantive. Pretty toys do not a great game make. Gotta have cool mechanics and heart under it, and be fun to play, which TFT has in spades already.

But perhaps it's worth brainstorming to make sure none of your (all our) worst nightmare comes to pass? Is there room for an app somehow? Or whatever kids use these days?

- Jack

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

Jim has it basically correct. There is an underground of aging grognards that always held in their hearts that against all hope Hell might freeze over. And it seems to be getting cooler and cooler...

Besides a somewhat corrected and perhaps re-organized set of rules, with *great* realistic art (maybe artists who have actually taken a few life drawing classes and understand the physics of movement and balance), I'm sure we all look forward to both more support material, and in my case *Programmed Modules*, that have the cleverness and intrigue and challenge of the original Microquests (especially DT1, DT2, Security Station, Grail Quest, and Orb Quest). There is also room for Tollenkar's Lair style source books for those that want to really work as GMs to create an interesting adventure.

And hope beyond hope inspiring new gamers, lost amongst all of the thumb-spraining electronic toys of the day, to use their imaginations and to sit around a table, feel dice in their hands and watch the expressions on other's faces as they explore and encounter and struggle with all of the other imaginations present.

Player aid cards, an index or codex, well-placed art to make remembering a place in the rules easier, the *Game Master's Shield*!, and even cardboard standups (shudder) or minis (SHUDDER) as optional items are welcome. I could even see a writeup explaining the Bell Curve, which is one mathematical foundation that this game uses brilliantly, and it what makes this game feel real, because it models the physical world.

Great games are based on creating interesting and challenging decisions for the players to resolve, and TFT can do that if it is presented well and is well-supported.

Even the genius of a Wish in TFT, which is difficult to obtain, then even more challenging to use because of the clever choice presented; use it just-in-time after the fact for a Do-Over (and risk something worse or no better) or use it prophylactically and get to decide exactly what the roll should be (but maybe you didn't need to use it in the first place, you'll never know). ;)

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

TFT is already a great game, and I'm sure Steve Jackson Games will give it a slick new presentation. But, everyone should be very aware that the gaming market is totally different now than it was 40 years ago. Brick and mortar stores are not nearly as prevalent now as they were then, and most people do their shopping on-line (and increasingly, their playing too), which means that market exposure is the key to making this game a success.

Unfortunately, that also means that the "cycle" for new games is a lot shorter too -- you either hit big in the first 3 months, or you've already missed the boat. To some extent, I suspect that's what might have happened with Dungeon Fantasy -- for some reason, it didn't "click" right away and has now been pretty much overcome by events; resulting in a decision by SJGs to not reprint it. When we were younglings, the game cycle held for much longer, and new products were few and far between (comparatively) meaning that games had a chance to be "out there" for quite a bit longer than they do now. How many of us remember waiting for two years to buy TFT (after Wizard and Death Test came out) and were just as eager for it at the end of that time as we were at the beginning? Nowadays, if it doesn't kick off with a big splash and make an instant hit, it's going to die pretty quickly; and not get much support from SJGs who are, after all, in the business to make some money, not support memorial projects...

So what's the answer? Well...we are, kind of. We need to be generating as much buzz as we possibly can in our gaming groups and wider connections. We need to interest a new generation of players in seeing what this "fantasy trip stuff" is all about. That means taking your precious copies out into the public and running games at your local hobby shops or as "something different" in your gaming groups. It means SJG running a slick advertising approach to this thing, not only in the hobby shops but also by doing what they can to make sure it shows up in internet searches; it means interviews and articles and podcasts and retrospectives and social media posts; it means buying ad time on other people's web pages, not just the SJG web page, and it means that those of us running blogs or web sites need to start putting links to SJGs and other Fantasy Trip sites out there and pushing them towards the public.

The success or failure of TFT is almost entirely based on ACCESS at this point; the rules are already good enough to be successful (indeed, as was pointed out earlier, were the second biggest selling fantasy roleplaying system out there back in 1981-3, only outsold by D&D -- and probably only then because D&D was EVERYWHERE, and TFT wasn't), and I suspect when Steve gets done with them, the rules will be that much better; and I can virtually guarantee that SJG will also produce a high-quality product both visually and physically...but no game will ever sell if no one knows anything about it.

So, my bottom line is that if people want it to succeed like it did back in the old days -- get the word out. Write those articles, put up those ads on your web pages, post things on Facebook and Twitter and whatever else it is people use these days, take the original books out of their plastic sleeves and set them up in your local hobby shop. Start writing new adventures and splat books and everything else you can think of, because, given that short game success cycle mentioned above, one way to extend it is to keep new products hitting the streets as quickly as we can.

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

And in the between time, TSG would arrive in your mailbox like some sort of sweet-smelling Houri Fan-dancer, sent to your home to hypnotically sway before you,.. to excite and titillate you,... with rumors of: "the new counter-sheets for Death Test from Pat Hidy are finally back from the printers and they look fantastic."

And other times, like a vanishing puff of smoke, pull-away teasingly and on-cue with: "Work is progressing, but slowly."

LOL!
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Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

"Ain't it the truth!" - B. Bunny

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Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

For the reborn TFT to succeed and attract a wider and ongoing audience what it will need is excellent support materials available at the start (or very early on at worst). Like someone said above, the game market has changed and there is now a very short window to get gamers attention. If you miss that, you're done.

The fact that Melee/Wizard/Death Test/TFT were very good will not be enough in my opinion. If Steve just want to update and reissue Melee/Wizard/Deathtest pretty much as they were, that's fine but will probably not gather a huge new audience.

What might gather a huge new audience is a completely new and integrated TFT RPG, with tidied up rules (basic and advanced), great new art, map/hex tiles, counters/minis, monster book, adventure book, world book, GM screen etc, all available right at the start. And then an aggressive schedule of new module releases over the next months.

If you look at the huge success of the AD&D adventure games Castle Ravenloft, Wrath of Ashardalon etc, they come in a big box with great quality rules, tiles, cards, minis, tokens etc, everything needed to play out of the box. But the games themselves are quite limited and every time I play them I'm aching for a meatier experience like TFT. If we could have TFT done like that we might have a winner; "TFT the boxed Adventure Game: Death Test!"

It would of course be a big risk but the rewards could also be huge.

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

That's a couple of years out of date. It's more like two months now, and heading in the direction of six weeks.

Edited to add: This is another reason why in-store preorders are critical to a game's success. If the buzz is out there before the game hits shelves, we get a head start on that ever-shrinking window.

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

One thing that didn't exist back in the late 70s was the whole Eurogame market. There were MB games and Monopoly and Risk and wargames but not the explosive family gaming experience that was/is Eurogaming.

People are primed to get their kids off social media and spend some interactive time with them, TFT could address that market, as well.

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

Success = published adventures.

If TFT comes out without a bunch of scenarios like those available for Pathfinder or DCC RPG, or a reboot of Death Test, etc., then I doubt it will stand a chance.

There are just too many excellent adventures available from publishers like Goodman Games and Purple Sorcerer, or from download sites like DriveThruRPG.com for any kids to bother picking up yet another RPG rule set.

And let's not forget the example of OSRs like Dark City games: why would anyone who likes their scenarios bother with a full-fledged TFT?

A game is more than rules. No one expected Monopoly players to design their own board...

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

If as Andrew says, JVL's estimate of three months is dated by a few years, and he estimates the window-of-opportunity to get a foothold in the market is currently at two months and headed towards six weeks, obviously then the constriction is happening at an increasing rate-of-compression over time, and eventually, a point will be reached, where: "it is easier for a Camel to pass through the eye-of-the-needle...".

However, to also quote Alexander Graham Bell: "When one door closes, another opens; but we often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door that we do not see the one which has opened for us."
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Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

I think it's more accurate to say that a lot of the work of selling the game is now having to happen before the game itself is on the market. We can no longer count on a game getting traction after it's on store shelves, because most stores are having to cycle their new releases shelves every week to keep up with the stream of new content.

Last year, at Gen Con, there were over 500 new games debuted. At Essen, it was well over 1,000. In that crowded a field, many exceptional games get choked out through no fault of their own.

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

@ Andrew Hackard: Does SJ Games have an "evangelist" program like Goodman Games does?

A group of amateur GMs who host games at cons and their FLGS, hand out swag, talk up the games, etc?

My FLGS carries a bunch of SJ games (Munchkins, Illuminanti, etc) and has an active gamer scene, but they mostly play MTG or Fate variants or the latest monster board game from Fantasy Flight or an indie publisher.

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

MiB. Of course.

Now that I know, you're not gonna have to brain-wipe me, are you?

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

looks like the right thread to ask:

you SJ Games staff surely already have an idea about the potential interest for the new TFT.

So, do you check -among other things - also the number of visitors/posters of this forum?
if yes ( and I 'm sure it's a yes), are these numbers encouraging compared to the numbers of the visitors/posters of the forums dedicated to other SJ Games releases?

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

That's a pretty slick summation of exactly the way it was back then! ;-)

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

Definitely going to be interested in quality programmed adventure (solo scenario, whatever you calll it) submissions. This will be true regardless of the format of the first re-release.

Of course, this means we have to revive our submissions procedures, since we have not been an active market for freelance work for several years now - too much in the pipeline already.

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

Thank you JVL. I think it's one of those situations that a person would need to live through - as we did - to really get it.

However, now that I think about: "a sweet-smelling Houri Fan-dancer",... from,.. AUSTIN, TX ?!?

ROFL!!!!!

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

Hopefully, hopefully, hopefully, quality, quality, quality (ingenious ideas well-playtested) resulting in challenging replayability in the world of Cidri that can do the job without resorting to freakish creatures and banshees from hell, but rather more "real-world" characters and creatures, be they wolves, bears, snakes, rats, or interesting wizards or fighters in interesting puzzle-like environments (no small task!) with a sane and believable backstory.

There is a nightmarish load of juvenile and disturbing programmed adventures (in my opinion, and others besides) for various sub-standard RPGs with deplorable artwork and arguably disappointing scenes; my hopes are for clever, well-written, intriguing, and engaging modules that explore the possibilities of TFT that set it apart from the rest. :)

IMO, very good examples of this are present in original releases DT1, DT2, Orb Quest, ITL, and to slightly lesser degree Security Station and Grail Quest.

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

Understood.

Andrew, based on the current market condition and environment you have described, are you generally indicating focusing on a promotional campaign, as a premarketing strategy, which at the first-stage systemically attempts to create "a heavy buzz" at an underground/grass-roots level, building-up potential energy and consumer interest over time, with a mid-goal of generating a hunger with the broader-market consumer; and an end-goal strategy timed to when the product prints and ships, so that upon release, that same installed consumer demand will greet the product at the cash register and upon delivery?

Do I have your picture of the "work of selling" you indicated above accurate?

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Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

I don't know what the specific plans are. What you're describing would be a major marketing push in consultation with the TFT line editor, none of whom is me. But it sure sounds like a good thing to be doing, since we want this product to succeed.

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

Yes, as do we all Andrew, and so very much so!

So in what I laid-out in broad strokes as response, is that essentially the overview of the general strategic plan; irrespective of any specific details?

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Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

Actually that's what I don't want. I was disappointed in Tollenkar's lair because it used mostly human or natural adversaries. Even the limited selection of creatures contained in ITL had potential for many interesting encounters and I'd have liked more of that. It is a fantasy game after all.

I'd also avoid going too far down the solo/programmed adventure route. I'm probably in the minority in that view I know, but I'd rather see some good quality GM adventures.

And in a regular size!!!

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

Chris, did you GM Tollenkar's Lair, or did you take your trip to Landmaster Hall as a Player Character?

How about having plenty of both?

My grognard-eyes will second that.
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Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

Jim, I only have a scan of it but haven't run it. It just didn't interest me enough to make the effort sadly. It's possible I'm being unfair to it, but I was expecting a bit more "high fantasy". Perhaps because I've adapted my TFT to accommodate more of that sort of play it just didn't suit us.

I agree with plenty of both!!

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

I agree re: solo/programmed adventures. While they can be very engaging, they are difficult for GMs to use. At the very least, a map with relevant paragraphs indexed should be available for GMs who want to run a group. (I created such a map for Death Test I/II and Grailquest, but lost them years ago.

Genuine adventure modules, in my opinion, would be better. Obviously, we'd love to have lots of both. But in a world of limited resources, priorities must be established.

I didn't have the same reaction as you to Tollenkar's Lair. I thought it was/is an excellent example of a plausible dungeon. But agreed, it is not a classic FRPG dungeon.

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

Sorry you didn't care for your read-thru of Tollenkar's Lair; Little Kess and his Thugs are a blast to beat-on LOL! - and the lower-levels are pretty tough depending on how many are in your party and how many points they are built on, etc.

If I recall correctly - and I may not be - Tollenkar's Lair's was also dual-designed to also serve as an illustrated learning-aid for new TFT GM's just getting started - as we all were at that time!

So why not take another look at it from a GM perspective, and see if there might be some meat you can steal and use elsewhere in your game-world.

Even the least-popular of the post-SJ Metagaming/Games Research Group TFT offerings had SOMETHING worth stealing,... I mean "re-purposing". LOL!

Speaking of re-purposing, I cannot tell you how many times I "re-purposed" sections of Tollenkar's Labyrinth. Wow! I would take sections of it - especially the "Double Map" inside the center-section of In The Labyrinth - and I would cut that place up vertically, horizontally, and every-which-way - and that was during the days of REAL "Cut and Paste". LOL! Need a Caverns accessed by tunnels? BAM! Need a stand alone Cave? BAM! Need a section of Catacombs? BAM! Need a Bandit's Hideout? BA,.. oh wait, it's already a Bandit Hide-out. LOL!

Anyway, you can just grab what you need from sections you like and forget the rest. So many combinations; and I only got caught twice doing this by players.

The point is, there is some real gaming-value there beyond the surface, if you dig (or cut and paste).

Here is another cool thing you can do with Tollenkar's Lair: Take the existing module, and rip-out (figuratively, not literally) all the things in there which are NOT to your liking and do not fit into your vision of what you wished it was. I am talking: Background, Rumors, Characters, Monsters, Traps, Descriptions; if you don't like anything in it as written, out it goes!

BUT then, go back and put back in your own stuff - how YOU would do it - as either part of a High-Fantasy Adventure which satisfies you, OR, how YOU would have presented Tollenkar's Lair originally, and fill it back up AND MAKE IT BETTER.

Who knows Chris, you may find your own re-write of "Tollenkar: The Redo" or "Tolkien-arh" (if you want to go High-Fantasy) is so good; you might try selling it back to SJ !!! LOL!

Now THAT would be a GREAT TFT story LOL!

Either way, ENJOY!

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

How practical/financially viable is it to provide a programmed version AND a refereed version of a particular adventure? Or is that something best left to the fans?

In any case, a map of the programmed adventure that is indexed with the paragraphs would allow GMs to run it reasonably efficiently. And if the adventure is available in electronic form, a sufficiently motivated GM can copy/paste the text into a more GM-friendly format.

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

You probably have (or had) submission standards. Regardless, you might want to check out http://tenfootpole.org/ironspike/

Bryce Lynch, who isn't a technical writer but has been reviewing published scenarios for a decade or so, has developed an excellent checklist of adventure technical writing do's & don'ts. And he has a simple guiding principle: the writer's job is to make running the scenario as easy as possible.

For what it's worth, I can attest that the scenarios he reviews favorably, while sometimes not to my taste, are excellently crafted, viscerally but simply described, very well organized and thematically coherent.

Just my $.02.

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

In reference to programmed vs. books of ideas, maps, suggestions, backgrounds, etc., both can be fun, but it takes a LOT of work to design an adventure, make allowances for what the players might want to do and what the GM is prepared to do, keep it balanced, etc. etc. in a populate the world approach with just a book of "stuff". Like is said, ideas are free for the taking, it's the implementation that shows the work.

Not a lot of players will volunteer for that, nor may they have the time, and left with having to prepare for days and weeks to design something in the hopes that potential players won't turn their noses up on or sit silently while they consider mowing the lawn, programmed adventures can be the answer.

"Hey, why don't we play TFT?" becomes a real option when everyone can sit down and try once more to get through a particularly challenging and interesting adventure without much up front work by the GM. Someone is selected to forego their character to instead survive the entire evening as GM, while the others design away and the GM preps quickly. Without that option, it probably won't be played, in my experience.

I don't think anyone in our group *ever* played a programmed module solo, it's interesting that people call it that! Of course, a skilled and dedicated person can design, through many months of hard work, a programmed adventure as a GM unmotivated by compensation or publication, but it almost certainly will not rise to the standard of a professionally developed and tested commercial venture.

Excellent programmed replayable adventures are what I would want to see to help get people into the system quickly and easily, then books of ideas for those who have the motivation, time, and interest to develop them into worthwhile adventuring.

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

Hey, I lived in Austin back in the day (alas, after the demise of Metagaming and TFT, but Steve was still there) and a "sweet-smelling Houri Fan-dancer" was entirely possible! It's a college town, you know -- anything's possible! ;-)

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

One of the nice things about Dark City Games' various programmed adventures is that they DO try to make them usable by GMs as well as solely programmed adventures. Mind you, the very nature of programmed adventure dictates very small dungeons and limited plots (too many branches and sequels to keep track of in programmed instructions otherwise); but clearly it's something that is do-able.

One way to increase replayability of something like Death Test is to list all the rooms (and maybe even a few extras so you're never quite sure what you'll get) and then have the players roll randomly to see what room comes next -- the predictability of the encounters drops off dramatically that way... (I can't take credit for the idea -- it's actually Marko Tabyanan's idea.)

As far as GrailQuest goes, I have to say I think it was one of the best microquests ever designed. I sincerely hope that it somehow makes it back into print one of these days! Basically, it broke the mini-dungeon mold set by DT and DT2, and widened the horizons of a programmed adventure quite brilliantly!

I totally agree with you on Tollenkar's Lair, my only objection being that it always felt like we were only getting about half the story... ;-)

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

Thanks for the link! A very valuable site. (To find the standards, click on the "About Bryce" tab and the "Review Standards" sub-tab...)

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

I'm glad someone noticed! :)

That was the intent from the beginning, but I look to the original creator of TFT to either continue with his ideas or massage others' to ensure a great product worthy of many repeated playings.

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

I love DCG's work and will continue to buy everything they offer, but my sincerest hope and wish is that they will "subcontract" with SJGs in order to produce new and wonderful programmed adventures (along with the DM info needed to just run them) for the new TFT!

Two great companies working together!

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

Dark City Games has a decent pile of adventures that are TFT compatible. (For a while they were actually using the TFT trademark.)

I've not looked at the adventures because they're priced about $13... but they've got about 20 titles out. (Their "Retroclone" rules are more pseudo-clone - they handle skills different from TFT talents.)

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

You know, I forgot that Dark City Games included GM-friendly maps. And I completely agree with you about Grail Quest. Excellent example of what the preprogrammed format is capable of. I also like the random room idea.

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

You Too?!!

In mid '76 Before MELEE came out, moved from our Austin property on Brodie Lane off 290 - now get these directions: "just before 'Convict Hill Rd' comes into Brodie, and if you hit 'W Slaughter Ln' you went too far". I am 100% serious about that! LOL! We didn't even have a normal mailing address back then; it was just some wacky Rural Route code.

NOW think what it would have been like as a Jr High kid in '77 after the release of Melee, to ask other kids to come over to play this new game where you chop each other up, IF you don't fill each other up with arrows first,.. and use those directions to your house LOL!

I couldn't have found Metagaming back in the day, as I didn't start driving until around 1980. Even if I had known about the TFT Play-Test Sessions, the address printed on the Microgame Boxes would have lead me to a Post Office over on the other side of the Colorado River and UT - and I probably would not have thought to simply write and ask where they were physically located LOL!

As a teen, all kinds of wacky projections go on through your mind, like:

If I had called to ask if i could join the Play-Test Group, what if HT might have told me: "If you're too dumb to find us, you're too dumb play with us"
<click>
Dial Tone

And,

What if HT might have asked me where I lived? "Uh,..on Brodie, near,..Uh,.. Convict Hill,.. ugh,...before,.. ugh... Slaughter Ln,... "
<click>
Dial-Tone

So we both had bad timing; and I just had a worse address
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Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

Heh. I have a client whose address is *still* "So and So Ranch, X miles south of Hwy Y on Hwy Z".

I got Melee in 9th grade (1979). Actually, I accidentally bought Death Test first. But even though I lacked the rules for combat, I was intrigued. Then a buddy bought Melee and showed it to me. For some odd reason, the individual weapon counters stood out. I was already a Metagaming fan due to Ogre/GEV. So I bought Melee. Then Wizard. I tried a number of ways to use Melee with AD&D, but teenaged AD&D players in my school were utterly hidebound.

Then ITL came out. I accidentally bought Advanced Melee first (a recurring theme in my early wargame days) instead of ITL. Then Advanced Wizard because the store was sold out of ITL. Finally, a good while later, ITL was back in stock. In fact, I was on the verge of starting a roleplaying campaign modeled after D&D but using Advanced Melee when I got ITL.

My reaction was "Huh. That's an easy way to do characters." I started the first of MANY TFT campaigns a week later.

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

LOL! Yes, I recall those as well. Not quite "the big city" LOL!

Yes, and as I said in post#1, it was the TFT Rulebook Whiplash Syndrome, which gave them the biggest excuse to use as a justification not to covert and kept them dug-in. That is the biggest part I want to see "fixed" with the re-release. Thankfully I had a good group back then of TFT Loyalists, but the numbers of D&D'ers in constrast was staggering by comparison. I tried hard, but as the saying goes: "You can't save them all.", especially with a sales-objection like that to overcome with a hardened prospect; it just added to their existing sales-resistance.

THAT'S RIGHT!! There was some big weird gap between the early printings of ITL!!! I forgot about that! That was another problem with trying to convert others away from "The Church of Gygax", and made it tough, when you did, as my buddies had to wait to get their own copies because the store didn't have ITL back in stock for a long time, but DID have AM and AW. - I forgot ALL about that! LOL!

I see you are located in Tyler. You would have had ride on the back of one of those AMAZING Smoked Turkeys from Greenberg's for over 200 miles to get down to Austin - before cooking it, of course - and see if you could have picked-up a copy of ITL at Metagaming in-person LOL!

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

It took me a few years, but I generally used my Christmas Bonus and/or my Tax Refund to pick up one or two of them each year; and now own all of them (except for the most recent three sci-fi ones). I must say that I am VERY happy with the quality of their effort. And it is extremely easy to run them using classic TFT rules if that's your preference. The only trouble you'll find is the lack of healing magic in TFT, and you can either retrofit that, or simply supply extra healing potions...

In short, I strongly recommend them to anyone looking for some new adventures to run -- heck, they even have a more-or-less consistent "game world" (which is explained in some detail in the "Campaign Guide" included in Fire in the Streets).

For those interested in taking a look, here's a link to the DCG web page...

(Note: I include the link with a bit of trepidation, but rely on Steve Jackson's comment a month or two ago regarding including links to places where things can be purchased as permitting this -- since technically, I guess, DCG is in "competition" with SJG. Also, since SJG doesn't actually have anything TFT on the market yet, I don't feel I'm cutting into their profits by doing this. However, if Steve or Andrew feel differently about it, I trust they'll either ask me to delete the link, or do so themselves...)

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

This kind of comment is extremely off-putting. It certainly isn't going to be helpful when it comes time to convince new gamers to try TFT. You can have whatever opinions you like about the merits of various RPGs, but you need to express them in ways that aren't derogatory to people who have different views.

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

The moniker was the colloquial name of a CULTURAL MIND-SET in place back in the 80s, and had nothing to do with my opinion of the merits of a game system. Awareness of the reference and keeping it in 'Context' making ALL the difference.

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Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

Heh. I lived out near Brodie Lane too, but I didn't get there until I was transferred there by the USAF after my Berlin tour, so I wasn't living there until late 1989. Then I only "actually" lived there for about a year since I spent over two years "TDY" (on temporary assignments) elsewhere, including for Panama and the First Gulf War. So my gaming time was pretty shot anyway. At least we had a street address! ;-)

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

Sorry to heat that. FRP Gaming was HUGE in the Marines; I was so surprised and pleased to discover! In fact, it was while I was stationed in CA, than MtM was released in '86; which as was clearly stated in the book(or TSG, can't recall now): "was NOT TFT all over again". So, like you, I have been waiting a long time to see TFT regain it's exposure, and hopefully find the TRUE measure of it potential.

LOL! We did get a proper address after we moved,... just so TSG could be delivered ;-)

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

Yep, I was in Berlin in '86, and we had a good gaming group there. We played everything from Twilight 2000 and MtM to Pax Britannia! But life got to be so hectic from about 1989 on that a new group just never seemed to gel. Half the time, half the group was either in a war zone somewhere, or we were working 24 hour shifts and all on different shift schedules, and then everyone PCSd and you had to start all over! It didn't really ever calm back down, for me at least -- I was on the run until 2004 when I finally retired. But now, the gods have been generous to me -- I have free time, and TFT is on the cusp of reviving again! Now, if I could just move back to Texas (I'm way out in the woods in northern Taxifornia) so I can once again afford my hobby AND find people to play with! ;-)

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

Yeah, they are obscenely delicious. There was a time, in the dimly remembered past, when Texas was something of a gaming hub. Metagaming, Heritage Miniatures, Martian Metals and of course, SJG. We even had a decent wholesale distributor in Dallas, Southgames. One of the principals was Al Pare of Reaper miniatures fame. (I worked at a local hobby store and handled all gaming and model inventory orders).

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

Sounds like that must have been a good place to be! It must have been something to work in retail at a shop in those days. Especially with so many people into RPGs at the time during the peak.

After the Marine Corps and college, I entered the casino industry; so at least I was around GAMES all day; and in terms of "Game Design", a Casino is a really just a big "Labyrinth for Profit" of sorts; if you really think about it from an inside perspective.

Speaking of which, back in the day, did you and your TFT buddies ever gamble (you know, .25cents) on your Melee matches in the early days? What a blast THAT was! LOL!

WOW! Remember when TSG, or it could it have been in Interplay,.. (not sure, and wouldn't you know it, my Reference Librarian is on vacation this week - i.e. don't feel like looking it up) when that spot-piece announced that Martian Metals burnt-down, and that would be the end to the TFT MINITURES?

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

As a Charter Member of the Church of Gygax (May His d4s Always Be Pointy), I think that the tongue in cheek nature of the comment was pretty obvious to everyone.

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

Well, like every teenager in the 70s-80s I was convinced that I lived in the most backwards place imaginable. Imagine my confusion when I found out that Tyler was considered “the big city” by kids in surrounding small towns...

However, for a good while, we had a toy store that carried a sizeable inventory of AH and SPI games; a hobby store that carried a deep stock of historical and fantasy miniatures, Metagaming stuff, SPI/AH and a fair amount of small press stuff; and another toy store that was sort of in the middle between the other two. And the first two were in a shopping across the street from the mall that contained the third. In those days, Texas had the blue laws so the mall was closed on Sunday. We had at least 3 good sized game conventions on Sundays at the mall. Howard Thompson was a guest at at least one of them.

For a town of 70,000 that wasn’t bad at all.

We never gambled as I recall. But in the pre-politically correct days, we did heap a shocking amount of verbal abuse on those who failed to win.

Yes, and no more upside down ads. I never could figure out if that was an intentional ad campaign or if it was a layout mistake and they just went with it. Losing Martian Metals really sucked too. Because for a teenager, working a part-time minimum wage job, the Martian Metals 15mm figures were extremely affordable. The Grenadier 25mm AD&D line was somewhat pricey for the time. Minimum wage was about $2.90 an hour (~$2.20 after withholding) so a $15 game product was costly. At least for a kid who also had to buy school clothes and a bit later, gasoline.

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

It is so true: Our perception is based on our perspective,... and by the time the big picture came into focus, and I looked up from the Melee Map,... I aged to where I started needing glasses. LOL!

We always wanted a TFT-version of one of those SPI vaccu-form plastic counter-trays for our TFT counters. I used to use my Grand-Pops old segmented jewellery box for his cuff-links; although the zip-lock baggie were better for security, it offered no protection to the edges of the TFT counters while traveling.

Although with TFT using the original baggies and then, the cardboard boxes, and then lastly, the plastic clam-shells (for SJ Games Pocket-Boxes), were a natural progression of: low production-cost packaging solutions - yet, notice how the material, production, engineering and tooling cost increase over time - I always wished for TFT MICRO's to be packaged a scaled-version of the SPI-style vaccu-form plastic counter-tray with the clear lid packaging - especially with the printed rules-set cover serving as the front-box art through the clear plastic - I thought the SPI packaging-designer was brilliant

LOL!!!,... after all, it is properly classified as a: SOCIAL GAMING EXPERIENCE; but that in itself in no way implies a guaranteed, nor defined level of civility and couth is present, or even desirable; depending on what type of experience a group finds as fun.

We didn't have an atmosphere like that with our TFT group interestingly enough - and trust me, were we ALL champion "zinger-artists".

However, 3M's 'Acquire' by Sid Saxon, and Albert Lamorisse's 'Risk', those were the games that came with 3d6 worth of: "Vex & Taunt" - Hey, that sounds like a new game title!! - as part-and-parcel during our play with the other games we also loved.

But in TFT, no; we were so deep in head-space, and so highly focused that I image to an outside observer, we may have resembled a group of Mediums in a Seance'. Also, the fact that we played by candle-lite, huddled together in semi-darkness, and spoke in very low voice - as though we were playing ITL somewhere deep within a ancient labyrinth - served to strengthen the whole mood and atmosphere for us. For a very long time we, as players, were so staunchly committed and into the whole: "If you do it, your character does it; if you say it, your character says it" play-style - that no one wanted with them: soda-pop, chips, radio playing, etc. We were 5 people, who for years, collectively shared and experienced an extremely vivid transcendental supernaut-type experience; but, fueled only with TFT working on our imaginations and through the theatre of our mind's-eye. THAT, right there, was, for our group: THE MAGIC OF THE FANTASY TRIP

I think it was because our heads were collectively SO DEEP into the "Reality of the Fantasy"; that, along with unique ability that TFT had on us to transport us dimensionally into an altered-state-of-consciousness, it REALLY was THE FANTASY TRIP for us. So, everyone's attitude was passionately and sharply focused on "Maintaining the Spell" - and for no other reason.
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Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

Except those SPI plastic boxes fell completely apart just sitting on your storage shelf. I don't believe I ever had one last more than about a year before it started shedding pieces of itself, even if it hadn't been played in a while. I still have some, but they are not doing well. Even SPI recognized that they were simply not up to par and used to routinely mention that they were still looking for a better storage solution until they went tango uniform. I don't know how many times I've had to re-glue the bottoms to the top, and almost every one I own has shards of plastic coming out of the various pockets or from around the edges -- especially the central pockets and the dice storage hole. The only really survivable part has been the *softer* clear plastic lids that fit over the counter trays...and even those have discolored to a lovely gerbil-vomit yellow over the years...

But yes, I totally agree that I wish there were better packaging options available. I know my Ogre garage has held up remarkably well, but it's only what, five or six years old? And I'll bet it was a HELL of a lot more expensive than those old SPI counter trays! Still, maybe Steve will give us something wonderful with the TFT Kickstarter when it goes live!

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

This is an excellent point I had forgotten. How would you feel about a Beefed-Up version of the same basic design?
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Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

The DESIGN was an excellent one...the production values, alas... (You know, those plastic trays worked much better when inserted inside the old "Tactical Studies Games" cardboard boxes that they used for a couple of years back in the early 70's -- the cardboard boxes supported the plastic, and THOSE trays held together very well for far longer than the ones that just sat there exposed to...gravity...or whatever it is that did them in. The problem there was the plastic lids didn't work well with the cardboard frames, and if they just put a cardboard flap in place it did absolutely nothing to keep the counters in their trays. So still, bad design.)

So yes, I'd agree it was a good choice. Except, maybe we would need some different sized counter tray slots (I realize they would ALL have to basically be bigger to accommodate the larger counters, which means fewer of them, sadly) for things like 2-hex, 3-hex, 4-hex, 7-hex (hopefully two different types), and, dare I hope for it? 10-hex and 14-hex creatures!!!!! ;-) So maybe we'll need a differently engineered Ogre Garage after all -- a "Monster Lair"? Plus, I assume he still has his heart set on miniatures...

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

I must admit, I've been very pleasantly surprised at the sustained quality of the Dark City modules. Anyone can write a one-hit wonder. But writing so many hits for so long? Impressive.

Tough to choose a favorite.

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

Along with so many others also, I think George Dew deserves a special medal for keeping the torch held high.

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

Hear, hear.

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

<golf clap> for George.

Re: Addressing the Elephant in the room (No, not you Sir! Please, sit down.)
 

I'll draft the citation!