Goblins
 

I must have known this once, but I forgot.

I buffed goblins considerably when I wrote ITL. In Melee and Wizard they are min ST and DX of only 4, with a point total of 18.

In ITL, they have min ST 6 and DX 8 and IQ 10, with 6 points to spend, for a point total of 30.

I'm going to let the latest published book rule here, and revise Melee and Wizard accordingly.

Re: Goblins
 

Obviously goblins are a diverse race and there are larger and smaller varieties to be found owing to environment and climate as much as genetics, as such, I say use both, possibly renaming the smaller ones to gobbits or some such.

Re: Goblins
 

I suspect the original Goblin was designed as cannon-fodder for mob attacks. The later ones seemed more designed as playable characters. I think your choice is a good one here.

Re: Goblins
 

I played a goblin character once. Never again. The mental stress of having to continuously edit my own speech to make sure I never lied was excruciating. I was always having to find other ways to say, "I'm sure he didn't mean to be rude," etc. and that was fun for about 3% of how long I played him.

Re: Goblins
 

I loved the way the goblins were depicted in ITL.
also I think that PCs should be allowed to play goblins (or ocs).

hobgoblins and snotlings ( perhaps the goblins of Melee/Wizard ?) should be considered racial variants, having different ST and less IQ than goblins, actually at sub-human level.

Hence these should not be suitable races for heroes*.

* I realize that it's a racist post, sorry! :-)))

Re: Goblins
 

"Snotlings" -- I like it! ;-)

Re: Goblins
 

Sounds good! Perhaps add a few more low-ST weapons so they have more options?

Also, I like my hobgoblins to be a bit rough and tumble, more like a rugged orc and less like the hopeless patsies in ITL. Maybe use that name to stat out some kind of Uruk-Hai/Bugbear class goblin-y fellows? e.g., ST 10 , DX 8, IQ 6, 8-10 extra points?

Re: Goblins
 

Of course PC's can be goblins or orcs! If you are willing to loosen up a bit, anything can be a PC. Ogres, prootwadles, slimes, 2 hex dragons, hunting dogs, etc. Why not?

Re: Goblins
 

Anything, as long as it's fun and can interact meaningfully with the other PCs. A slime might be hard. A good hunting dog is a better team player than a lot of people I've known.

Snotlings are a real thing in, I believe, Warhammer.

Re: Goblins
 

Ahhh . . . bringing back memories of Monsters! Monsters!

D.

Re: Goblins
 

Sounds good to me (though I'd be curious if anyone had a vision of what a DX 4 goblin would be like).

I like the concept of ITL goblins and hobgoblins, and we had a lot of fun with them. We came up with some interesting amusing roles for hobgoblins and one GM friend made a series of IQ 6 talents for them.

Both goblins and hobgoblins can be somewhat challenging to play, or for a GM to figure out what they do that's effective, especially if you assume that the versions listed are above-average PC versions.

They could benefit a bit from a rule that has their armor weigh less since they're so small. They don't really have any offsetting advantages other than the goblin reputation for keeping their word.

They kind of test the low-end of the system.

Hobgoblins are described as being larger than goblins though if you compare starting-point fighter goblins to hobgoblins, if they put all their points into ST and DX they both have 20 total but a hobgoblin who does that will have IQ 6 so no normal weapon talents. so if they push their ST to higher than goblins can (13 or 14), they have subhuman DX and/or no weapon talents, so in practice it's not really much like they're effectively stronger than goblins at all. Memorable hobgoblin characters included idiot porters and comically-limited wizard apprentices. I wish they were a bit more effectively distinguished as larger/stronger than goblins, and perhaps that they both had some redeeming quality.

They also feel to me like a good argument for a rule which takes into account starting attribute levels somehow, such as having the experience points needed to raise an attribute be based on how much you've raised it since creation, or something.

Re: Goblins
 

yes they are.

they exist in Cidri as well, may be known with another name.
they are basically "lesser goblins". In other words sub-goblins. They are used as slaves and as expendable units in battle. The problem is they are prone to flee in combat as soon as they start to accumulate casualties and panics when they are wounded.

They can be used in many bizzarre tactis by their masters including being shot in groups of 4-5 by a special catapult directly on the enemy or sent in groups of 10 all tied together with chains to prevent they run away (they would run in random directions so lacking any coordination they tend to stay in the fight). Tipical snotling has ST 7- DX 7- IQ 6 - MA 12 and is shorter than an halfing. He uses a club or a knife, no armor, and tries HtH at first opportunity. They do not attack unless can outnmber the opponent at least 3/1 (or are forced to fight someway).

Re: Goblins
 

One detail I have long wondered about is whether goblins are supposed to all have 12 fingers or not, and if so, how many toes they (and hobgoblins) have, because of the goblin in Tollenkar's Lair who's "all twelve fingers" are mentioned casually. I gathered that they did from that, though it's not mentioned in ITL. I suppose the answer would be that since Cidri is as it is, there are some goblin subspecies with 6 per hand and some with 5 (certainly true of my friends where in my campaign it's 6 and in campaigns of GMs who never read TL, it tends to be 5).

Re: Goblins
 

Maybe goblins are like cats, with their funny extra toes...

Re: Goblins
 

yes, I confirm that in Cidri there are goblins with 5 (in my campaigns) and 6 (in yours) :-D

Re: Goblins
 

Mr Jackson: Why not call the weak ones "lesser goblins" and the ITL ones 'greater goblins" - Essentially keeping both.

Re: Goblins
 

So maybe, for Hobgoblins:

These are big, stupid goblins. They are often found in the service of “real” goblins. Hobgoblins are afraid of goblins, and will never attack them unless commanded to by other goblins. Although bigger than goblins, they are smaller and weaker than most other races. They tend to be simple, brutal creatures, and do not keep their word as do Goblins.
A Hobgoblin character starts with ST 7, DX 8, and IQ 7, with 8 extra points added anywhere.

Yes, we may need some slightly-lower-ST weapons, though I'm happy with requiring very weak creatures to use daggers, as always. Just because a hobgoblin CAN go out there with ST 7 does not mean he should.

Re: Goblins
 

For what it's worth, in my fae-heavy Dragon Heresy setting, there are

Goblins - small cannon fodder that are into mob tactics and sneak attacks
Hobgoblins - larger versions of goblins, man-sized and more dangerous
Hobs - hobgoblins specifically bred for battle
Bugbears - the nastiest in both temperament and ferocity, kind of the hob equivalent of a berserker

Re: Goblins
 

We haven't defined ogres or kobolds, either. Ogres might occupy the slot between human and giant in size. I have some minis that were intended as Giant skeletons for 28mm, but would pass just fine for hulking huge men (rather, the mortal remains of same) in 54. I think of them as skeletal ogres.

Kobolds have two threads that could be followed - the smaller cousins of dwarves, or the nuisancy stupid ravenous rabble followers of King Torg (All hail King Torg!) I think the rabble is more fun. Kind of like tiny prootwaddles who want to eat your liver.

I don't really want to rename either goblins or hobgoblins, but Moar Kreeturs is a good thing as long as they can have unique stories and personalities.

Re: Goblins
 

It's always struck me as slightly odd that RPGs use hobgoblin to mean something bigger and meaner than goblins, while in folklore they tend to be smaller and occasionally are even helpful. More like a less friendly form of brownies than giant stupid goblins. I blame Tolkien.

Re: Goblins
 

FWIW, I liked that TFT didn't have kobolds, especially not D&D-style kobolds, which aren't much like actual kobolds.

(Ogres are defined as stupid vicious giants on ITL page 55.)

Re: Goblins
 

Looks good to me!

Re: Goblins
 

One of the more intriguing variants on Orcs I read was the Harn take on the "gargun." It's well worth a read if you have the time.

In fact, I found it so intriguing, I used it once in a campaign, in which Goblins, Hobgoblins, Orcs, and a pseudo Uruk-Hai group that I just gave up and named "Fomorians" were all different forms to the egg-laying, Tolkien-esque, Gargun hordes. It worked pretty well, and was surprisingly challenging for the players to wrap their heads around. But I digress...

Another goblin-like creature that I ran across in what I seem to remember was a Sci-Fi novel (which alas, I can no longer recall the title or author of), was a little green, pointy-eared, fella from a high gravity planet, that could literally toss Humans around like matchsticks. He also used a sword with devastating results, as I recall...

I think having different variations on a theme is well worth doing, and would love to see lots of variants on these things. But I will totally agree with Skarg that if we have Kobolds, let's not have them be blue skinned dogs! (I remember that in some game (was it Swords and Sorcery?), SPI had Kobolds that were some kind of earth creature, not unlike a small, less capable Earth Elemental.)

Re: Goblins
 

Kobolds should be blue however, that is the source of the lovely colour Cobalt Blue. They should not be dogs though.

Re: Goblins
 

Cobalt. "I don't think that word means what you think it does." ;-)

Re: Goblins
 

Mine are lowest-ish on the dragonkin pecking order. FWYW. True Dragon-->Lindorm-->half-dragon-->lizardfolk (eðlahrogn)-->kobold

Re: Goblins
 

The words are all related. Cobalt arsenide ores being named for kobalds for the way they mess up the smelting of ores they curse (by being present), and being used in the production of the cobalt aluminum oxide ceramic colorant that is the original cobalt blue.

Re: Goblins
 

Besides, in a fantasy world Cobalt Blue paint is extracted from actual Kobolds. It's why being an artist is an adventuring occupation.

I do think that if TFT includes Kobolds they should be distinct to D&D Kobolds, not that I will scream if they are not included. I like T&T's frog-like goblins as well as those from Labyrinth and The Hobbit, at least three different takes on the "same" creature. Let TFT develop its own flavors.

Re: Goblins
 

(My comment was a joke.)

Re: Goblins
 

Adventure title/seed: The Kobold Blues.

Re: Goblins
 

Was it a Cardboard Heroes set that referred to Kobolds as "little blue fiends"? That is what first gave me the association between the wee beasties and the colour. And cobalt blue is a lovely colour, possibly my favourite blue for painting, pity the real thing is both expensive and toxic.

Re: Goblins
 

Plot synopsis: Dastardly small blue Kobolds kidnap Gnome scientists to devise fiendish new weapon of mass destruction which will poison the Gnomeland for millennia: The Kobold Bomb!