Dungeon Fantasy RPG All-Out Attack (Double) Question
 

Hey guys I am just trying to figure this out.
Guy charged up (full move) and said "all out attack double" with his rapier.
He did 5 attacks first at full skill and then 4 more @ -4.

Where is this?

Thanks!

EDIT: he is claiming that double attack and rapid strike stacks this way...I thought rapid strike only let you do 1 more (total of 3 attacks) He does have weapon master...but did not pick up extra attack.
EDIT#2: To avoid confusion we are using DF splatbooks for GURPS not the DFRPG. I just get really confused with all the snippets of various rules and how they combine.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG All-Out Attack (Double) Question
 

It's something wrong.
1. All-Out Attack (every option) allows you to move up to HALF move.
2. It's just give you one extra attack - NOT doubling number od your attacks.
3. I don't know for what is this -4 penalty. If it was Rapid Strike, then penalty for 3 extra attacks should be -9 with Weapon Master (od -18 without).

EDIT: nope. Martial Arts p.126-127 - there is clear explanation about multiple attacks. In addition, from what you said I think it was Double-Weapon Attack (not Rapid Strike). It splits ONE attack into two attacks with -4 to both od them. But it's for double wielders. So Swashbuckler doing All-Out (Double) Dual-Weapon Attack can move up to HALF Move, attack one time without penalties, and two attacks at -4 with two different weapons.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG All-Out Attack (Double) Question
 

He's wrong. All-out (double) allows two attacks at no penalty. Rapid strike allows you to convert one of those attacks into a double attack at -6/-6 (-3/-3 for weapon master), so the combination allows three attacks, at +0/-3/-3. Double attack cannot be combined with rapid strike but can be combined with all-out attack, so it lets you do three attacks at +0/-4/-4.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG All-Out Attack (Double) Question
 

Dual-Weapon Attack cannot be combined with rapid strike but can be combined with all-out attack, so it lets you do three attacks at +0/-4/-4

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG All-Out Attack (Double) Question
 

If you have Weapon Master, Rapid Strike is more efficient than DWA (-3/-3 versus -4/4). In addition, you can do more than one extra attack with a Rapid Strike, though seven extra attacks would be at -21! Now, you could have a character with Extra Attack (Multistrike, +20%; Rapier Only, -20%) 7 [175], which would allow 9 attacks at base skill with an AOA (Double), but I really do not see the utility of AOA (Double) at that point.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG All-Out Attack (Double) Question
 

More than one attack for WM is an optional rule.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG All-Out Attack (Double) Question
 

Probably obvious at this point, but the Maneuver is called "Double" because in the normal case, it allows you to make two attacks instead of the usual one. That's "double", but as others have said, it's really "All-out Attack (Plus One)". If you have some other cinematic Advantages that give you more than one attack when doing a regular Attack Maneuver, they all add, rather than multiply.

The description for the All-out Attack Maneuver is on page B365 of GURPS Basic, Characters. The title does say DFRPG, but unfortunately, I don't have the DFRPG book, so I can't cite a page number there for you.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG All-Out Attack (Double) Question
 

As the guy, who was playing that character yesterday, let me explain:

It was All-Out Attack (Double) which gives two Attacks at full skill, leaving me defenseless.

I did two steps in the direction of the enemy and then made Rapid Strike, splitting the second Attack for 4 attacks (-18 each), using Flurry of Blows as per B357 (which makes the penalty -9 per attack), and my character has Weapon Master (additionally halving the penalty to -4)

So it makes 5 attacks, not 9

1st @ Full skill
2nd @ -4 to skill, -1 FP
3rd @ -4 to skill, -1 FP
4th @ -4 to skill, -1 FP
5th @ -4 to skill, -1 FP

No defenses allowed, -4FP in total.

Is this correct?

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG All-Out Attack (Double) Question
 

DFRPG: Exploits p30 is explicit that All-Out Attack: Double lets you make two attacks against one foe.

DFPRG: Exploits p36 is equally explicit that you may trade one and only one attack for a dual-weapon attack, and you cannot Rapid Strike during the same turn.

DFRPG: Exploits p38 is equally explicit that you may trade one and only one attack for a Rapid Strike, and you cannot make a dual weapon attack during the same turn.

DFPRG: Adventurers p49, under Extra Attack, summarizes all the above information and includes the page references.

He's very wrong, but if you have the DFRPG, you could have easily looked this up yourself.

The best a swashbuckler or knight can do in DFRPG is 5 attacks: All-Out Attack Double for 3 with 2 of the strikes suffering Rapid Strike or Dual-Weapon Attack penalties and 2 Extra Attacks. Assuming a Weapon Master making a Rapid Strike, he rolls 3 attacks at no penalty and 2 attacks at -3.

ninja to Torvsen:
You can't stack penalties on Rapid Strike to make multiple attacks. It's one attack becomes 2 attacks at -6. It's not one attack becomes X+1 attacks at -6*X total penalty. I can see how you might read it that way from the Basic set, but the DFPRG is very explicit.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG All-Out Attack (Double) Question
 

Well, MA127 begs to differ

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG All-Out Attack (Double) Question
 

Totes legit if you weren't in a DFRPG game...


DFRPG doesn't allow in the rules from Martial Arts and it doesn't use Extra Effort In Combat from Basic.


If you want to "Flurry of Blows" in DFRPG you have to do it the hard way, Will roll giving +5% times MoS to your DX... now I argue that it's a Skill based Will roll, others cry "THAT"S TOO MUNCKINNY!", but as the text is a bit vague, that's a discussion between you and your fellow gaming group members.



[EDIT]
Basically what we have here is the ever dreaded "GURPS Rules Bias" creeping in. It can take some time to unpack all those 'inherent' rules you've gotten used and dial back to where DFRPG thinks you should be.
[/EDIT]

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG All-Out Attack (Double) Question
 

Both flurry of blows and making more than two attacks with rapid strike are optional rules that are only applicable at the GMs discretion, and they aren't mentioned in DF. As such, even in a standard game, clear them with the GM before doing them. If the GM is surprised by optional rules you're using, you're doing something wrong.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG All-Out Attack (Double) Question
 

"In a cinematic campaign – especially a chambara or wuxia one – the GM may wish to allow more than two attacks with a Rapid Strike."

The most important part of that sentence is "the GM may wish to allow." It's not a default part of the rule set. It's not even an optional rule that is often in place, like hit locations. It is an extremely optional rule for some cinematic campaigns.

Did you ask the GM if that particular optional rule was in place?

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG All-Out Attack (Double) Question
 

That isn't how Extra Effort works in DFRPG and I wouldn't call it munchkinny so much as an extrapolation that isn't particularly supported by the text.

"Success adds 5% times margin of success (minimum +5%) to weight lifted, distance jumped, speed attained, etc. – or to ST, if it governs the task directly." Exploits p 20.

There's no provision there for increasing your DX through Extra Effort, just your ST. And given that ST is called out directly but DX isn't mentioned, there's no particular reason to think you can use extra effort to increase your DX.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG All-Out Attack (Double) Question
 

I moved this to the DFRPG forum so it's being discussed in the appropriate place, per the subject line of the message. Discussion about how these traits work in GURPS is off-topic.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG All-Out Attack (Double) Question
 

In that case none of that is allowed.

Is that the case though? Or is the OP using rules not found in DFRPG?

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG All-Out Attack (Double) Question
 

"speed attained"

So... speed attained is now a provision of ST is it? ;)


Now you can try to argue that this is specifically to cover "running faster" (which is legit straight from Basic), but since Extra Effort In Combat was wrongly* removed, I stand by my ruling.



* In my opinion. I know why Kromm stripped it, I simply disagree. Need something for my FP 14+ warrior types to spend FP on in combat after all...

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG All-Out Attack (Double) Question
 

In "full" GURPS - yes, of course, everything od correct IMO.
In DFRPG - AFAIK no. If I'm bot wrong there is not "Extra Effort In Combat" in DFRPG, as well as aby other rules from outside DFRPG books.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG All-Out Attack (Double) Question
 

Nope, speed is governed by Basic Speed, per the definitions on that page.

Extra effort lets you increase your ability to run fast, jump high or far, lift weights, and force doors or bend bars. It doesn't let you increase your DX in combat.

You can house-rule in back in, but the RAW is straightforward.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG All-Out Attack (Double) Question
 

I wouldn't call that blurb "definitional". Especially after it points out that "many tasks are more specific". It's setting a 'baseline" from one is expected to derive additional specificity.

I'm sorry but you're explicitly cutting out the "etc" from that list.

However... having noted the "... feat of strength or speed can push the limits" line I can accept the argument that Extra Effort is being dialed back to only feats of ST and Basic Move (HT based Lifting being the lone exception).


I still shake my head at this, but c'est la vie.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG All-Out Attack (Double) Question
 

Etc means "things similar to these". Speed is not a function of dex, speed is a function of move.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG All-Out Attack (Double) Question
 

I am fairly certain that "ect." means "more feats of strength and speed" not "any skill roll".

I don't understand why you find this convoluted interpretation and proliferation of nuisance rolls to be preferrable to Extra Effort in Combat. It isn't like you only have the DFRPG.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG All-Out Attack (Double) Question
 

I don't. However one is "RAW DFRPG"* and one isn't.

One is "working within the framework of the box set"* and one is "adding things from outside the box set".

Also one is "interesting mental exercise"* and one is "simple, easy, and basically already done".



* If you're referring to the thread I started four months ago. I mean I could go back to that thread and post an addendum of "I tried it, it's stupid, don't do this, use Extra Effort In Combat from Basic instead" if that helps.

Of course if you recall from that thread I didn't want more rolling... I was creating a "figure this stuff out before combat and it costs 1 or more FP for these results" system.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG All-Out Attack (Double) Question
 

I don't think either of them are, actually.

I guess I'm a little confused because you seem to be suggesting it here too.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG All-Out Attack (Double) Question
 

Only because mlangsdorf and I were having a difference of opinion as to whether it should be allowed for non-ST, non-Basic Move related tasks.

But "roll Will and add 5%xMoS to [stat] for 1 FP" is exactly how Extra Effort works in DFRPG... which is coincidentally what I was stating here.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG All-Out Attack (Double) Question
 

Explicitly for "feats of strength and speed" like jumping gaps and lifting weights. There's no indication there that it is intended to apply to skill rolls in combat.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG All-Out Attack (Double) Question
 

The rules for extra effort are for feats of strength and speed, and are explained in Chapter 2 next to the rules for physical feats for good reason. A GM could house-rule that this includes combat, and work out ways for that to make sense, but that isn't the spirit of the rules as written. As far as the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game is concerned, extra effort isn't for combat.

Those who also play GURPS won't break the DFRPG by adding in its rules for extra effort in combat – or for that matter, its rules for feats fueled by character points, or any other way to push the limits. But this isn't the right forum for discussing any of that, because at that point we're really talking about another game completely.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG All-Out Attack (Double) Question
 

To me that reads as 'no flurry of blows during an All-Out Attack - 'Attack' and 'All-Out Attack' are different manoeuvres.