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-   -   The Fourth Attribute... (https://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=155580)

Chris Rice 02-11-2018 11:50 AM
Re: The Fourth Attribute...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeard1999 (Post 2157574)
So maybe TFT could use a “variable 4th attribute”. This would be dependent upon the campaign type. For instance, campaigns that want wizards to be weak and effete would have a “Mana” attribute to power spells. Campaigns that focus on rogues and thieves would add Manual Dexterity. Campaigns that are fighter intensive would add Health. High Tech campaigns might add Education (or talent points). Epic level games might add Hero Points. Etc.

Personally, I added them all! But it's not a bad idea to have a variable 4th attribute especially if we eventually have Sci-Fi or Modern variants, where ST won't be as important.

nukesnipe 02-11-2018 02:55 PM
Re: The Fourth Attribute...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly (Post 2157182)
Unambiguous: Talent points as a thing separate from IQ, and used as your inventory of points for talents and spells.
I was just thinking the same thing last night.

Having such an attribute would pretty much take care of Conan the Librarian and would not necessitate a change in the skill/talent lists. The IQ and prerequisite requires could remain as is, but instead of having to be a genius to acquire the talent combinations you desire, you just need to be really talented - i.e., have a lot of talent points to distribute.

I just don't know if it should be based off of initial IQ and "grow" from there, or if it should be a separate attribute starting at 8 or 10 points.

larsdangly 02-11-2018 03:06 PM
Re: The Fourth Attribute...
 
Talent points are the only addition I have seen that isn't either a second-order elaboration, or something that changes the game so much it needs a major think-through and playtest before taking seriously. But I think everyone who has played with something like a TP stat has liked it and found the game nearly unchanged.

Skarg 02-11-2018 04:41 PM
Re: The Fourth Attribute...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeard1999 (Post 2157580)
I've been thinking more about this system. I think that TFT works very well, unmodified, through 38 points or so. But I don't personally have a problem with increasing attributes. So, here's a proposed variant based on your system.

Characters may only add six additional attribute points through accumulating EP. (Wizard spells of IQ 19-20 might need to be reduced to IQ 18. Also, need to figure out what to do with Lizardmen and characters that only earn half EP.)

After adding 6 attribute points, each additional point earned by EP will be converted into 2 talent points or X Karma points (KP). ...
This is similar to my feeling too, though I think Karma points would be best as an optional rule system.

Mainly, this says to me that the "4th attribute" is something else to do with EP besides increase attributes. And the most natural thing that occurs to me is, learn more talents or spells, especially if there are a more talents to learn. For example, I'd rather see a character learn a talent that reduces armor DX penalty than just increase their DX to huge levels for all purposes. So the 4th attribute would be talent points, or not a 4th attribute but just the ability to spend EP to get talents in excess of IQ.

I've tried a few systems for limiting maximum attributes in TFT and GURPS, which are sort of akin to 38 max.

I also think optional rules for splitting attributes for some characters can work well, too.

ak_aramis 02-12-2018 01:33 AM
Re: The Fourth Attribute...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly (Post 2157648)
Talent points are the only addition I have seen that isn't either a second-order elaboration, or something that changes the game so much it needs a major think-through and playtest before taking seriously. But I think everyone who has played with something like a TP stat has liked it and found the game nearly unchanged.
agreed... but, if I were to add a fifth, it might be just that.

JLV 02-12-2018 02:23 AM
Re: The Fourth Attribute...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Goodwin (Post 2157581)
How about a few small rules tweaks to open the fourth attribute space up for something else.

First: the rules already make explicit that ST loss to spellcasting is fatigue, and recovers more quickly, even though a wizard can still die from it. I propose that a wizard's mana score is equal to their IQ.
I already proposed that -- nobody cared.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Goodwin (Post 2157581)
Second: it makes sense that a fighter trains for two things: strength and fighting. I propose that a fighter's talent points is equal to their ST.

Then tweak the costs of Talents so that fighting and jock skills are less expensive for fighters, and wizard and nerdy stuff is less expensive for wizards.
I already proposed that -- nobody cared.

JLV 02-12-2018 02:30 AM
Re: The Fourth Attribute...
 
Remember everyone who wants to split every attribute or add things that aren't attributes instead; the premise of this thread was;

"If you can add ONE extra Attribute, what would it be and why?"

Not anything else.

As far as why some of us want to add HT goes, I think all of us in favor of it have already explained the reasons for doing so. Asking the same question over and over again isn't going to change our answers. If you disagree, that's fine; but just because you don't personally agree with it doesn't invalidate the proposal.

This was always a highly hypothetical thread in any case, so a better approach would be to make your proposal and let it stand (or sink) on it's own merits instead of knocking down anyone else's proposal so yours can perch on the rubble.

tbeard1999 02-12-2018 01:02 PM
Re: The Fourth Attribute...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLV (Post 2157772)
Remember everyone who wants to split every attribute or add things that aren't attributes instead; the premise of this thread was;

"If you can add ONE extra Attribute, what would it be and why?"

Not anything else.

As far as why some of us want to add HT goes, I think all of us in favor of it have already explained the reasons for doing so. Asking the same question over and over again isn't going to change our answers. If you disagree, that's fine; but just because you don't personally agree with it doesn't invalidate the proposal.

This was always a highly hypothetical thread in any case, so a better approach would be to make your proposal and let it stand (or sink) on it's own merits instead of knocking down anyone else's proposal so yours can perch on the rubble.
I have one question for the folks who want a health attribute - is the primary reason to avoid the Conan the Wizard syndrome?

Chris Goodwin 02-12-2018 01:40 PM
Re: The Fourth Attribute...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeard1999 (Post 2157892)
I have one question for the folks who want a health attribute - is the primary reason to avoid the Conan the Wizard syndrome?
I don't think we need a health attribute for that. Using the tweaks I mentioned above, that JLV has also proposed, we can avoid Conan the Wizard. They also more or less avoid the need for a Talent Points attribute.

My fourth attribute would be Presence (originally named Cool, but that doesn't really fit), which would be a combination of willpower and social ability. You'd roll against Presence to use or resist social talents or mental spells (or psionic abilities, if and when those are added). It would also be the primary attribute for clerical type characters, who would use it both for preaching and to represent their faith. In light of the above rules tweaks, it might be the talent point reserve used by clerics, psychics, and social characters, and provide the power reserve for the supernatural abilities of the first two.

JLV 02-12-2018 05:00 PM
Re: The Fourth Attribute...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeard1999 (Post 2157892)
I have one question for the folks who want a health attribute - is the primary reason to avoid the Conan the Wizard syndrome?
It avoids that, it gets rid of the weird "fST" concept, it spreads attributes out in general to avoid attribute bloat, it permits sensible encumbrance and strategic movement rules, it permits more effective accounting for things like disease and poison, it does a lot of things.


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