Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions
 

I would tend to rationalize, because doors open to reveal the other side, and if the door is not really opened, the imagination of the people believing the illusion cannot provide the information of what is on the other side of the door. Also a door has a conspicuous open/closed state. Underbrush by comparison would just be imagined to part to make way for someone passing through, and springing back, revealing nothing and not changing state.


Yeah, it's an interesting question, where the line is is not clear, and there are certainly places where the logic is weird and things don't make sense. I both like TFT illusions a lot, and find them problematic too. (I've reinvented them in various ways over the years. I'm not sure what my favorite version is.)

Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions
 

Does your illusion double have the same uber staff (two hex range, ignore armor, auto-hit) as you do, or just an illusion of an ordinary rod of wood?

Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions
 

Deciding what an illusion can and can't do is one of the funner mental chestnuts in ITL. I hope (and guess) it will never by fully settled. Who knows; maybe the wizards who create them aren't even sure what they are capable of...

Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions
 

Hmm... I don't really follow your argument here. "Information of what is on the other side of the door" doesn't enter into it (you're not trying to create an illusion of what's on the other side of the door). There's nothing in the rules to suggest an illusion can't walk around a corner, for example. Indeed, illusions can scout for you (that's the advantage of seeing through their eyes), except that they won't trigger traps and can't go through doors, etc.

Also, doors can be varying degrees of partly open, and underbrush can conceal if it's dense enough and high enough. (What about an illusion of a wolf, which can't see higher than two or three feet?)

Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions
 

I would guess you could fall back on the "illusions act like average members of their class, unless it's a specific, recognized person" argument, in which case it depends on whether other viewers know about wizards' staffs and think of you as a wizard. (Which might mean that it only functions like an ordinary wooden staff if you're fighting a pack of wolves...)

If you're a famous wizard with a really high-powered staff, then knowledgable viewers might imbue your illusion double with the same powers. There is a bit on p.138 of ITL which says:

Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions
 

It's not about what the illusion can see, but about the knowledge of the caster and the other people.

Example:

The caster, his allies and foes are in a room with a closed door. The caster creates an illusion in the room that they all see. If the caster wants the illusion to seem to open the door, but the actual door remains closed, then what would these people see and hear on the other side of the door? Suppose they have different knowledge and memories of who and what is in that room, and some have never seen that room before. The illusion is a one-hex illusion, and both is size and in information cannot provide an accurate, consistent, or large enough illusion of what would be shown if the door were too be shown to open. Perhaps at most, while the illusion touches the door, it could be shown to open onto darkness or smoke or maybe even an obscure sense the the door is open, but also:

1) The illusion was cast of a figure, and though you can have the illusion do things, you can't generally have the illusion expand to show illusions of other things after you cast it.

2) If the illusion could include an open door (like I think it can include plants and water and things naturally reacting to the movement of the illusionary figure in minor ways that don't disturb their meaningful state), then the illusion of the open door (and what's through it) would be a separate illusion if left open and the illusion lets go of it, which would split and break the illusion.

3) Maybe you could create an illusion of an opening door and coordinate it with the other illusion of the figure, but it seems to me you'd need the illusion to be large enough to show what's supposedly on the other side. So unless you can make do with an illusion of a doorway you can't really see anything though due to a curtain or something, you'd need at least a 4-hex illusion to show some of the interior room revealed by the open door, unless no one has a view into it. Even a 7-hex or 14-hex illusion might not be enough if the room on the other side is known to be bigger and someone has a good view through the illusionary open door.

Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions
 

OK, I think I understand what you're talking about; apologies for not getting your point earlier.

However, I still think this involves overly complex decision-making, and situations that can easily be altered to make things ambiguous again.

What if everyone was just in that room, and already knows what it looks like? Or what if there are other beings in that room, who can themselves supply the "missing information"? What if it's a glass door? Is it then OK for the illusion to open and walk through the door (and possibly attack creatures on the other side)?

(Remember, we're not just talking about whether or not it the illusion can *look* like it's opened and gone through a door or through dense underbrush -- we're talking about whether it can actually do so.)



Sure, but one could argue that someone passing through plants will leave behind the illusion of quivering (or even broken) leaves and branches.

At a minimum, there would be the continually tricky problem of deciding whether the plausible effects are "minor" or not

But that would suggest that an illusion of a 7-hex dragon could, say, nudge open the door of a one-hex closet and poke its head inside without causing any problems.


As for passing through dense plants: what if the illusion is of a 14-hex dragon? To preserve illusory plausibility, it's going to (appear to) trample a lot of the undergrowth into the ground, so much so that other (real) characters would expect to be able to walk through unhindered after it, and they should expect to see through the region of trampled undergrowth to the other side. (What if I want my 14-hex illusory dragon to go trampling through a hedge maze?) That would seem to bring us back to the "opening the door" problem.

You could argue that particular case is similar enough to the "opening the door" problem that it's not allowed: it's not "minor". But how about if it's a 7-hex dragon? A 4-hex dragon? A giant? Where and how do you draw the line?

(Moreover, the idea that illusions can walk through dense vegetation, and that the appearance of pushing branches aside is itself illusory, implies that they can do things no ordinary being can do: they can actually pass right through vegetation as if they -- or the vegetation -- were completely insubstantial.)


I'd still argue that it's much simpler -- and more in accord with the rules as written -- to assume that illusions just can't affect inanimate objects (or IQ 0 or 1 organisms), full stop.

Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions
 

Those are all intelligent questions, and ones which can and may come up in play, especially with players who think about those sorts of things. And I do not think the TFT illusion rules specify enough for there to be one correct answer. I think they would be great to nail down for a GM and/or person developing an alternate illusion system.




Maybe, but I think it implies that there would be many giveaways for a smart observer about what's an illusion or not. I think most observant people who understand this would be able to know an illusion is an illusion by watching an noticing all the missing effects on everything without IQ.

In fact, I think this is why cats and dogs often ignore or don't get what a video image is supposed to be - their senses are acute and include much more hearing, so they don't get many of the usual signs that something is there.

Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions
 

I don't think this matters though. The fact is that regardless of whether or not you *think* it's an illusion, the only way to get rid of it under the RAW is to either kill or exhaust the wizard casting it, or to disbelieve it. And neither of those actions is affected by what the illusion does or doesn't do. The only real advantage from getting a clue that way is to know which figure to direct your disbelief effort at; you still have to make your IQ roll to actually get rid of the thing, and while you're doing that, you can't do anything else.

Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions
 

Yes to everything but your first sentence.

It does matter, quite a bit, for that very reason.

And if it's known that you can figure out what's an illusion by whether it disturbs puddles, dust or grass, then the illusion game very logically and reasonably would involve "which hexes give away illusions or not?" and setting those up around your camp, etc etc.

That's one way to do it, if that's what you want. It's logical and avoids some questions but creates others.

Another is to say that the viewer perceives appropriate minor side effects, though then the question is where is the line, which is what we were talking about before.

Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions
 

Have the GM roll against the viewer's IQ then, to determine if he notices those minor things, if it's truly important. Problem solved.

Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions
 

Rather than have the figure disappear if it rolls a drop or break weapon, how about this:
If it rolls a drop weapon, the illusion fumbles as it "tries" to catch the weapon (which is still in the hand) and falls prone with the weapon still in hand. It is then able to stand up next turn.
If it breaks a weapon, the illusion does the above prone action, but the weapon now appears broken in his hand.

Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions
 

So here are some ways to look at it

1) Illusion walking through brush.

As I understand it, the human mind often fills in gaps of logic. I believe an experiment was done with having test subjects watch a movie of a room with a lot of people going in and out. They were told to watch for some specific action. During all the commotion in the room, a man in a gorilla suit walks through. Afterwards they subjects were asked if they saw any odd animals in the movie and I believe all said no.

So perhaps an illusion can walk through undergrowth, and the undergrowth would be seen through the legs, but it wouldn’t be recognized as such by the oblivious viewers. They “fill-in” the brush moving, etc. You might feel a bit unsettled that there is something not quite right about it though.

The Illusion itself is not pushing the underbrush away, its just your filling in the paradox.

This is where Sherlock Holmes would crack the case by recognizing that the undergrowth didn’t move and seeing that the legs pass through the branches.


2) Illusion not opening doors.

The wizard controls the Illusion. If the RAW states that

ITL p.139: "An illusion cannot affect any inanimate object; its effects are wholly mental, and are the product of the wizard’s mind and the minds of those who see the illusion."

"Since an illusion cannot affect an inanimate object, it can never open doors, fetch drinks, spring traps, etc."

This is something that the wizard has absolutely understands. Therefore he will not direct his Illusions to do something like that. If someone tells Joe (the illusion) to open the door and go into the next room, Sam (the wizard) will have Joe say “No, you do it.” Or something like that and not do open the door.


3) Recognize that Illusion is pushing through brush or not opening doors

Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions
 

I'd say, same rules, so you want to roll over your IQ... giving dumb players the advantage! (Personally, I know when I was younger and dumber, I found it much easier to believe whatever I wanted to be true than I do now...)

Edit: dumb *characters

Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions
 

I feel like you just summarized a big chunk of the Human Condition, right there. :)

Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions
 

"Remember, kids--if it's too good to be true..."
"IT PROBABLY IS!" They chorus in reply.
"So if you stumble upon a pot of gold just sitting in the road?"
"I DISBELIEVE!"
"If Kroatan The Barbarian kicks in the door of your hovel?"
"I DISBELIEVE!"
"If a wizard summons a demon to attack you?"
"I DISBELIEVE!"

Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions
 

And just to prove that I disbelieve that pot of gold, I send my brave and loyal NPC, Jimmy the Equipment Mule — whose life I treasure dearly, I assure you — to go and demonstrate just how illusory it is.

After he sets his backpack full of loot down over here, of course.

Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions
 

How much does it cost to hire a Nodwick?

You can get a starting wizard for $25 x 2 (doubled base pay for danger) plus $25 (living) plus $20/week in books for the apprentice to study = $95/week.

Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions
 

For me,
the short answer: dispels the illusion or image.

the long answer: With a drop or broken weapon, either it causes the illusion/image to vanish since it violates the laws that govern it (much like invisibility destroys illusions/images, thus is a precedence) OR it simply does not break or drop and is obvious to all that are watching. I prefer the former since when an illusion fails to drop or break, it is obviously an illusion seems akin to disbelief. And for images anything causing such would have enough force to disrupt the image (spell or critical failure). OR the broken or drop weapon just disappears.

The good news is this give "break weapon" and "drop weapon" spells more power for spells that are seldom taken. And it give a much needed additional downside to illusions.

Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions
 

This points to another good solution. 18 is rolled, but the weapon doesn't break. Now roll to disbelieve is 3d vs IQ+4 or so.

Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions
 

When you are being charged by the rhinoceros, do you consider if the grass it charged from moved according to your knowledge of how grass should move when a rhinoceros charges through it OR do you get the hell out of the way?

In combat, your opponents probably aren't paying attention to those very insignificant things. Insignificant compared to a battleaxe speeding towards you head, anyway.

In a non-combat situation the viewers might have time to notice inconsistencies, but not when most illusions are being used.

Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions
 

Wait. What? You're now going to argue about "realism" in a discussion of disbelieving magical illusions? Besides, don't you think that part of the training in the "dsibelief cantrip" might include recognizing signs that something isn't real in a split second -- the same way that a soldier notices something that makes him immediately drop to the ground without being able to explicitly tell you what that thing is?

I'll disagree completely with you on that -- a rookie might not notice those things right off the bat, but a veteran sure would -- I've seen it a million times. That's why he (or she, I would presume) has made it to the point where they ARE a veteran. He might not be able to DO anything about it just then, but he NOTICED it all right. Just sayin'...

Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions
 

Illusions are common enough that attempting to Disbelieve them merits its own entry in the Options list. So even if common folk don't regularly deal with them, evidently Adventurers encounter them fairly often. And that means they should also know HOW to look for those telltale signs.

The question is simply whether they DO.

So if the Player announces "I'm going to watch for signs that this dude might be an Illusion", and then later attempts to Disbelieve, the GM should award some bonus on the roll. But if the Player just attempts it cold, without any prior announcement of watching for clues, then no bonus.

Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions
 

Apply "Waiting for an Opening" -ITL 127, but with an IQ instead of DX bonus?

Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions
 

That seems fair enough. Except in this case, perhaps you'd call it "Becoming Skeptical".

Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions
 

Do you get bonus XPs if you use Dagger Mastery to defend against the illusion princess whose face is twisted into a mask of hatred as she stabs at you with a dagger dripping with poison while you direct Staff V blasts from your silver dagger at the rival wizard standing behind her as you wait for an opening to disbelieve?

You can tell that it must be an illusion because no drops of poison actually discolor the filthy dungeon floor under her feet.

Re: Fantasy Trip Illusions
 

As I understand it, XP is almost entirely up to the GM nowadays.

And as previously established, if you're defending, then you're not Disbelieving (and therefore also not Becoming Skeptical).

But more importantly, do you really think that the only time anybody might ever need to Disbelieve an Illusion is right in the middle of combat? Do your games consist entirely of battle, and no other kind of interaction with NPCs?

Mine don't, and there are all kinds of abilities that would be useless in combat, but are immensely helpful in other scenarios.