Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

So, something I've been wondering, to make it (slightly) easier on myself in case I wanted to start a DFRPG campaign, would be to take some old adventure modules (now available on drivethrurpg) and converted them to GURPS stats.

Has anyone worked on such conversions, and if so, any advice?

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

The general experience is that converting is a pain. It saves you some time, but not all that much.

On the positive side:
1. Maps are already drawn.
2. Combat encounters already exist.
3. You probably have fond memories of the product, or alternately, have always wanted to run the product and now you get the chance to run it in DFRG.

On the negative side:
1. The maps generally don't have very many non-combat challenges, so you have to go and add opportunities for people to climb, jump across ledges, duck under stuff, and otherwise make Thieves and Martial Artists more useful.
2. Combat balance between some other game and GURPS is going to be very different. A lone golem can be anything from a push-over to a deadly fight in the source material, and in GURPS it can be anything from a push-over to a deadly fight. You're going to have to decide the challenge for each encounter that you adapt, and sometimes its going to be very hard to hit the right level.

Case in point: I adapted Keep on the Borderlands a few years ago. There's an encounter with a lone ogre that is fairly terrifying for 5-6 1st or 2nd level Basic D&D characters. In GURPS, the Scout shot it in the eye without even pausing. Similarly, the dinosaurs from Isle of Dread are moderately nasty if they start close to you in D&D, but are arrow bait in GURPS at just about any range.

3. Related to the above, a lot of published adventures suffer from the "horde of humanoids" problem. The opposition is mostly human-type enemies who fight in melee and maybe have some archers and possibly a spellcaster. This can work fine in some other games, but in DFRPG, you want a lot more variety in monsters or only the Scout and Swashbuckler will really shine.

Taking all that into account, my advice is to use published adventures as a source of inspiration. Redraw the maps to suit your purposes. Don't bother doing a mechanical conversion, but come up with your own monsters that feel right to you. If your orcs are more dangerous than your gnolls, don't worry about it and just make sure you and your players are having fun.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

Christopher Rice converted my 5e adventure Lost Hall of Tyr to DFRPG, at least in brief. Once Lost Hall is available on DriveThru (January sometime), you can see what's the what.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

I’ve been running Ptolus, a world/campaign hybrid book written for D&D3 under (more or less) GURPS DF for three years, using quite a few existing dungeons and adventures from the original book.

My main piece of advice is pick your encounters. D&D just has way too many combat encounters; pick the ones that are relevant to the flow of the adventure and just ditch most of the filler. Encounters with a single “boss” enemy should be merged with their henchmen. One-on-five in GURPS is usually short and painful. Have the boss intervene as the henchmen fight progresses, for example.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

Pre-written adventures can save you a lot of time, but there's still a lot of conversion work.

1. You will spend a *lot* of time converting monsters. You can save time if you check and see there's already a usable conversion of that monster to GURPS first. Google "GURPS <monstername>" and see what you can find. As an example, I searched for "GURPS Hydra" and found http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=122335 , featuring a pretty nice Waterspout Hydra.

2. For treasure, you probably can't keep the same coins as in a D&D adventure without it being way too much, since DFRPG says 1 gold piece is $400. I went with 1 gold piece = $4. Then I back-converted the value of treasure into DFRPG coins. (So a dead bandit that was carrying 14 gp in the original module is now carrying $56 in the conversion, which is 2 silver and 16 copper if anyone cares.)

3. For weapons, DFRPG gives a lot of options: fine, balanced, dwarven, elven, ornate, meteoric, Accuracy, Puissance, Penetrating, Shatterproof, etc. So rather than having every +1 sword be +1 Accuracy and +1 Puissance, make it more interesting and realistic. Start with the cheaper buffs and save the more expensive ones for rarer, better treasure.

4. For weird magic items, consider whether you really need to translate the effects to existing DFRPG rules, or if you can just keep the description as-is. For example, the adventure had a Clear Spindle Ioun Stone, which let the user survive without food or water, as long as the stone was orbiting their head. I just kept that description rather than hunting for a corresponding GURPS advantage or spell.

5. You need to decide whether to keep the map as-is with 5' or 10' squares, or convert it all to 1-yard hexes, or take a hybrid approach where you use the original map with squares for just moving around but redraw bits of it with hexes on the fly for combat. I personally prefer doing everything ahead of time with hexes, but it's a lot of extra work.

6. Balancing combats is hard. I don't think there are any formulaic shortcuts that actually work. Err on the side of a bit too easy at first, then dial up the difficulty as you get the measure of your PCs and players.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

I find it pretty easy, both are 3-18 scaled stats systems so mostly direct converts as is straight across

The biggest challenge is finding an adventure you like to convert, the conversion will be easy

mlangsdorf - any example where the monster was scarier to the GURPS charries than in the original?

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

Broadly speaking, system conversions should be done thematically, rather than literally, because a challenge that is appropriate in one game system is likely to be too weak or too strong in another system.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

An example where the opponent is harder in DFRPG than in D&D is large numbers of fodder humanoids. In D&D you have sweep attacks that let you take out multiple wimps per round, one fireball / cloudkill / sleep spell can take out lots of fodder, and higher level characters have enough hit points that a lucky hit or three doesn't matter. In DFRPG you mostly have to kill them one at a time, you have limited blocks and parries, and you don't get any active defense against attacks from the rear. So, good enemy tactics plus good enemy rolls can kill PCs.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

The kobold main hall in Keep on the Borderlands features 40 combatant kobolds. Granted, they all suck, but the 6 PCs at 200 points each just don't have enough tricks or skill to take on 6 to 1 odds. The front line gets outflanked, the squishies get swarmed and then it's a battle of attrition with the front-liners hoping their armor is good enough to protect them from all the attacks from behind that they can't prevent.

In D&D, the wizard and the elf would drop their Sleep spells and drop enough of them that the rest of the party could handle the remainder, but GURPS multi-target spells just aren't that good.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

If you rush in the room and allow yourself to be surrounded, sure. However, with the right approach it’s actually an easier fight in DFRPG. Hang back in a narrow entrance corrridor with shield using knights or other melee fighters making a wall to prevent flanking. The Scout is then free to fill them with arrows, and create fire may not be a d&d fireball, but it’s great for taking out mass fodder.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

Keep on the borderlands was written for D&D 1st edition, and charging into the kobold main room with first level characters would get you killed.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

It's slightly more complicated than that, even: The Keep on the Borderlands was for Basic Dungeons & Dragons, which is even lower-power than 1st edition.
The big points are that there's no "cleave", that Fighters have one less hit point per level, and that 1st-level Clerics don't have spells yet.
The kobold caves are also generally intended for 1st-level characters, so the Magic-User only has a single Sleep spell that will affect 2d8 kobolds.

So yes, charging into a room with forty kobolds is likely to get everyone killed.

There's some mitigating factors, though, some of which are worth keeping in mind if adapting to GURPS.

• Basic relied heavily on reaction checks, which were fairly generous and unlikely to lead to outright combat. 5- on a 2d6 table, with modifiers generally being +-1. At most 41.67% without DM fiat or the players taking actions into their own hands, in other words, and down to 16.67% if the player character speaking to them is charismatic and knows the Kobold language.

  In DFRPG they react at -5, and will therefore attack on a roll of 14 or less (90.74%). Cultural Adaptivity [10] (Bard) makes this 62.5%, and Bards in general are good for this when Charisma applies.
  However, do note that while Basic D&D gave the majority of its experience points from treasure, Dungeon Fantasy gives a fair amount for defeating enemies. Also, of course, combat is a lot more fun in Dungeon Fantasy than it was in Basic D&D - chances are that the players want to fight!

• Basic had morale rules, and Kobolds are particularly cowardly: with just 6 morale, Kobolds have a 58.33% chance of fleeing after one of them has been slain, with a second check after half of them have been downed.

  For DF I highly recommend using "And Stay Down!" (Exploits p.86), and you'll want to play up their cowardice as well. (Perhaps as the disadvantage, but not necessarily.)

• As was the fashion of the time, Keep on the Borderlands assumes a rather large party of six to nine player characters. In other words, you can maybe assume four to seven kobolds a person rather than ten.

  This won't necessarily hold true for Dungeon Fantasy, so beware. However, a Dungeon Fantasy character also has many advantages that a first-level D&D character lacks: among all the obvious ones, I should probably note that a Basic D&D character dies when they reach 0 hit points!

• Basic D&D has surprisingly involved rules for fleeing encounters, and "kobold losses will not be replaced".

  See also "Running Away!" (Exploits p.22) Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor! Also, of course, it's a lot easier to fight the horde in the 3yd corridor than the 17yd x 13yd common room.

• The individual Kobolds are very weak - their hit points are small enough that you're almost guaranteed to kill one with each hit, their armor is bad enough that you're somewhat likely to hit (leather), and they do half the damage a typical monster does. They're threatening due to their numbers, but only because the players are also low enough level to be killed by two hits.

  Dungeon Fantasy increases the power of everyone involved here, but probably more to the players advantage. The individual kobolds will inevitably be sturdier than their 1d4hp precursors, but the mere fact that the Wizard can cast more than one spell or the players able to attack more than once in a turn is probably enough to make a difference.

• An optional rule in The Keep on the Borderlands talks about how the organized monsters might try to take the players ransom rather than kill them and negotiate for their release in exchange for coin or a magic item - and gaining additional recruits in the process, perhaps making up for whatever dent the players might have made.

  If things suddenly seem very dire in your converted adventure as a room you thought was easy turned into a deathtrap, this seems like a useful option. They don't kill you, they humiliate you instead. (And are prepared for the next time.)

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

There's also the question of "What is a kobold?"

Kobolds aren't defined in the DFRPG as yet. They could be quite wimpy, with all attributes at 8, no improved secondary characteristics, and no skills above attribute level . . . Even from behind, they'll only grab someone or land a blow ~26% of the time – and grapples will be ST 8, while blows won't be accurate enough to aim at vital areas, will do 1d-3 or 1d-2 damage, and often won't punch through even DR 1-2. The kobolds will dodge at 7, and an injury of just 5 HP (easily managed by even a ST 10 wizard with a staff: 1d+2 crushing) is more than HP/2 and thus a major wound, and at HT 8, that's going to put a kobold on the ground ~74% of the time. And kobolds are both cowardly (so no All-Out Attacks to boost accuracy or damage) and poorly equipped (forget about armor, or weapons heavier than shortswords).

This is a specific example of the general, which is that stats can be adjusted to make any creature wimpier or scarier. You could even have a brain-damaged mindwarper or lich who botched the transformation and ended up weaker than in life, if you wanted that . . . The point being that if the adventure you're converting is for a few low-level characters, you're going to want to nerf a lot of creatures to be sensible matches for such heroes. The idea of monsters being highly standardized is commonplace today, but back in the days of early D&D modules, creatures were given full stats that weren't always the same everywhere.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

Dinomen seem very similar to kobolds . . . . Little wimpy lizard guys

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

Hmm, go figure. I'm sure it's a coincidence. :)

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

Very true. No magic missile. Sweeping attacks for martial/melee attacks are mostly missing in DFRPG. You. can find them in GURPS DF, but not in DFRPG.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

How much space do they have at start? If they are far enough away, a Wizard could use Explosive fireball or Explosive Lighting. Isn't Mass Sleep an option for the Wizard? Time to cast is a problematic. I'd lead with one of the Explosive spells first. Druid could use Mystic Mist as a delay and confusion tactic. Knight, Barbarian, Swashbuckler and Holy Warrior would just need to kill as many as they could quickly. I'd think Kobolds are kind of cowardly so Intimidation might work to make some of them run away or at least stop and go defensive. The Scout would need to target the leader, strongest, best armed. I'd think for Bard, the best bet is Song of Terror. The only issue is i think it probably could impact your party members also. With the Thief, I'm not sure would be much help except ranged attacks like thrown knves. Maybe Thief helps guarding front line warriors from flanking (using posion weapons? (are kobolds immune?).

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

I don't have a ton of experience with D&D 5e adventures, but recently I've been looking at the 3 D&D starter adventures from the 2 starter sets and the Essentials kit:

• Lost Mines of Phandelver
• Dragon of Icespire Peak
• Dragons of Stormwreck Isle

All of these have plenty of non-combat activities. For instance, Lost Mines of Phandelver has PC challenges:

• Dexterity (Stealth) check
• Wisdom (Perception) check (several of these) trap detection, searching ...
• Wisdom (Animal Handling) check
• Strength (Athletics) check -- for Climbing, moving through spiderwebs, ...
• Dexterity check (lots of these, dealing with traps, saving throws, etc)

Yeah, the scaling of fights can be a challenge I think. The whole Armor Class D&D vs GURPS armor DR and active defenses. Then there is the lower amount of Area of Effect capabilities in GURPS vs D&D 5e.

There is also the whole long and short rest, where D&D 5e has very easily recovered damage, where in GURPS you'd better have healers and potions aplenty. GURPS has no long rest, but if you get first-aid, a good meal, and rest overnight. You might gain back 1-3 points. But for D&D 5e a long rest will PC will regain all their lost Hit Points and some of their Hit Dice (not really sure what that entails, still learning D&D 5e).

I'd think if they start close in GURPS it would be really hard to get off a shot and if you miss you'd be dino food. At least if we're talking T-rex or Raptor or other big carnivor. Also if there's more than one, big problem.

GURPS DFRPG "fighters" don't have much in the way of Area of Effect attacks. No whirlwind attacks, no Cleave (I think that's available in DF but not DFRPG). The magic casters AoE choices are far more limited and often not as powerful as D&D5e.

I'm going all in on it. However, I will be doing things GURPS style. No mechanical conversions. I'm sticking with using stuff mostly GURPS. No D&D 5e magic missiles. That spell has no equivalent so wizard NPCs will just have to take an appropriate ranged attack spell. The hordes of enemies will be reduced in number in some cases and I'll pay attention to their weaknesses. They will be played so they care about their own survival. If the front line is getting massacred by the PCs, maybe those far away without ranged weapons may just run away. If the NPC enemies are prone to be depicted as Cowardly, then they can get a roll vs Cowardice or they run away. Intimidation and Fear used by PCs will also cause the NPCs to flee or at least not close in to attack immediately.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

Any ideas on using this adventure in D&D 5e Forgotten Realms setting. I'm specifically looking to put it in the north of Swordcoast.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

So, that original post pre-dated all sorts of stuff.

Lost Hall of Tyr (2nd Edition) is 5E/Dragon Heresy so no conversion needed.

I'm not that familiar with forgotten realms, but the key bit for Lost Hall would be that the hall should be in some pretty fierce mountains, and that there should be a reasonable population center to act as Isfjall and a base of operations.

The place that says "put it here" to me is around Mirabar, but the need for large mountains says "Spine of the World" to me.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

Actually the mention of 5e was mainly just to indicate 5e version of Forgotten Realms vs earlier versions say 4e version.


OK, thanks. I'll check into it.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

I don't know how much DFRPG you have actually played, but I actually ran a group of four through parts of the Isle of Dread. And my experience was that tbrigg's Scout could reliably eye-shot a dinosaur every other second (or faster) at close range, or put bodkins into the vitals at the same rate at longer ranges. Normal dinosaurs that started more than 2 seconds of movement away died before they made contact. 3 velociraptors, starting 20 yards away, was 1 velociraptor when it made it to the half-ogre knight and he could handle it in a 1 on 1 fight.

Combat scales differently between GURPS and D&D. Hordes of weak things are stronger in GURPS than they are in D&D, and a single foe with a lot of strength and toughness is generally weaker - there are exceptions like Electric Floating Jellies, Sword-Armor Golems, or Watchers at the End of Time. But those are powerful single combatants because they have a variety of good defenses on GURPS terms, not because they have a lot of HP.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

Concur with Mark here...the only way "one tough monster" was viable when I was writing the Bestiary versus 250-point or higher parties was to purposefull design them that way. Nictitating Membrane to prevent the "if it has eyes it dies" effect. Extra actions via fiat or rapid strike or high skill to offset the action economy, etc.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

I don't understand the whole if it has eyes it dies. So for instance dragons do have nictating membrane. It doesn't make sense to me that it is as touch as the scaled skin armor on the body, but it does. I'd think dragons should have eyelids and should be able to "block" by blinking. Most have long flexible necks so they should be able to "dodge" just moving their head/necks. Anyone with a bow becomes the prime target along with magic users since they also have ranged attacks and powerful magic. Dragons also have magic so why haven't they developed special spells to protect their eyes/face/head? Why aren't they doing things to blind the opposition with the ranged attacks?

Dragons in GURPS tend to have weaker ranged attacks than in D&D 5e or depicted in a lot of fantasy. Range is more limited and cone attacks aren't as wide spread and powerful.

For giants why not use shields? Why not use your arm to shield your eyes? Basically reducing Scouts to attacks of opportunity.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

These ideas would make a great Pyramid article.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

A couple of comments here:

(1) Nictitating membrane helps, but bodkin points are still pretty good at piercing DR 3-9.

(2) Spells like Missile Shield are also good, but cost a lot of energy to cast on SM +3-5 creatures (even if you are a SM +3-5 creature[1]), and meteoric iron arrows can still bypass these spells[2].

(3) In any case, this is the kind of thing Doug meant when he said he had to "purposefull[y] design" monsters to be "one tough monster." The point isn't that you can't have tough monsters; it's the fact that HP alone are not a sufficient defense unless you have hundreds of HP. A 500 HP godzilla is relatively immune to eyeshots. A 50 HP T-Rex is not.

[1] Unless the GM says otherwise, of course. A house rule that says something like "Subtract your own SM from the SM of creatures you cast Regular spells on for purposes of determining energy cost" would not be a bad thing. In fact I should probably make that one of my own house rules.

[2] Perhaps a better idea for a dragon would be an illusion spell to make its eyes appear to be higher or lower on its face than they actually are.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

There are other options, such as No Brain + Homogenous.

I've used 'offset eyes' on monsters, causing eye shots to be treated as face shots for damage purposes (it's a highly limited No Eyes or No Brain; either way it's probably not more than [2] and might just be a perk). For creatures with tiny brains like dinosaurs it's not not particularly unrealistic.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

Doesn't Homogeneous include No Brain, per Exploits pg. 55? "Ignore all knockdown and wounding modifiers for hit location". It's No Eyes that you need to add on, to prevent DR bypassing and blinding.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

As someone from D&D interested in DFRPG, this is a bit of an eye-opener. How common is this in practice? It doesn't exactly sound that fun or realistic, even in "heroic reality".

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

Opposable thumbs (and therefore ranged combat) are very good at defeating big dumb animals that aren't already in your face, especially if you're playing the equivalent of (guesstimate) 8th level characters. This is actually true in D&D 5E as well: keep your buddies at a safe distance while the Sharpshooter uses Expeditious Retreat or Longstrider or Haste to kill it.

However, this scenario isn't common in DFRPG in practice, in my experience these past six months since switching from 5E. One reason for this is:

1.) Indoor combats.

The timescale is such that indoor dungeons work better, so I don't feel bad about using indoor maps that have dungeons the size of an apartment building (e.g. 50 yards x 80 yards). In 5E I feel really awkward doing so because it's hard to explain why the whole dungeon doesn't become a single encounter: by the time three rounds (eighteen seconds) of combat have elapsed, dungeon inhabitants can have had time to realize something is happening and move 60 to 90 yards towards the sounds of trouble.

Even though movement speeds are more variable and can be much higher in DFRPG (4 mph to 50 mph) than in 5E (4 mph to usually no more than 12 mph), combat is so much quicker in DFRPG (often one to three seconds) that it feels more like a house clearing operation, just a couple of brief screams and then silence. Therefore I don't feel like an idiot GM by leaving the monsters in their various rooms, lurking in ambush or whatever. Therefore I run more small indoor adventures (vs. outdoor adventures with indoor spaces embedded in the battle map), and so killing things from a distance is harder in DFRPG than in 5E.

Another reason is:

2.) Opportunity cost to ranged specialization.

Range penalties in DFRPG are also tougher, and the rules are less favorable to kiting. One of the DF professions, the Scout, is specialized to such a degree that he can pull off amazing ranged kills anyway, but it makes it less of a no-brainer to build a ranged combatant/melee switch hitter. Rather, you have to specialize, and if you do you give up some fun stuff that Knights or Swashbucklers have in melee combat, which will be common indoors.

But the most important factor is:

3.) Lots of tough monsters are immune.

Many, many DFRPG monsters aren't particularly vulnerable to eyeshots anyway. Off the top of my head, trolls, black puddings, peshkali, and fire elementals either don't have heads, or don't care if you headshot them. (They might care a little if you put out both eyes but still won't die yet.) If you choose to specialize in headshots and eyeshots, you'll be relatively useless against a significant fraction of monsters, and it only takes one monster and some bad luck to kill you. (HP attrition is less of a factor than in 5E.)

Conclusion: I think you'll be happy with the balance between melee/ranged/spells in DFRPG, and the fun of being attacked by various monsters. I have been.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

Can you block something that can pierce your skin by "blinking"? Then the dragon either needs tougher eyelids, or something else going on for that idea.

That's already a completely valid way to interpret a Dodge.

Let me tell you the story of the time a green dragon made the mistake of announcing itself, then flying at our party while we were out in the open.

Now, it was used to caravans of quivering, fearful merchants who brought cattle or other gifts for it as payment for crossing it's prairies.

We, however hadn't actually spoken to anyone locally, so we had no idea about this arrangement.

It roared and began flying down towards us from it's lair in the distant mountains (like two miles off). I said, "Hey, DM, please let me know when it's in range for a fireball..."

A few in game minutes pass, GM says, "It's in range".

"I hold."
DM: "Okay..."
"OOC; so it's going to take about say, 6 rounds to get to fire-breathing range..." "Poison cloud, it's a green" "... right, anyway, about 6 rounds. I have 4 fireballs. I don't want it being able to flee when it realizes its error..."

Sure, "geek the Wizard first" is the trope classic for a reason, just make sure you're in range to does so, and not just in range to be disintegrated without being able to return fire.

Not always, but agreed. Baring sjmdw45's advice concerning SM and casting (which is advice that comes up frequently) I'd even allow them to just cast on themselves with "smaller areas", so Shield or Armor spell that only covers their head, or Return Missiles on their eyes, etc.

But, as sjmdw45 also points out, that won't help with anti-magic ammo.

They probably are. But remember this started by mentioning that T-Rexs weren't all that special when facing "Adventurer Level" PCs, because they are pretty good at rapid threat elimination.

They can... but even with a shield that's not really "limiting them to attacks of opportunity", the giant still needs to succeed at their block. And even if the Scout has to declare Waits... you aren't removing their "if it has eyes, it dies" ability.

Unless the giant claps an arm over their eyes and fights blindly, which, yeah, sure I've built blind cave trolls and ogres this way for a reason.


Basically, if there is a good Scout in the party (or Swishypokler, or highly skilled anything poker), If It Has Eyes (or Vitals) It Dies. So... just go into fights expecting this and prepare.

And as Douglas said, sometimes "horde" is better than "One BBEG". The difference is in D&D there really isn't an easy way to bypass AC and then do tremendous amounts of bonus damage, GURPS there often is (unless you build for it not be easy or even existent). So be ready to see it.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

And there are lots of ways to prepare! I don't want to derail this thread, but some of the ways to give headaches to scouts include:

1.) Monsters with small size and/or high Dodge. Trying to eyeshot a Dodge 14 flying monster is an exercise in frustration, since bows can't Feint or Deceptive Attack. (You may need to get the wizard to cast Flight on a melee fighter instead.)

2.) As mentioned previously, monsters with protective magic, like dragons.

3.) Monsters that come in large numbers, like three giant brothers instead of just one.

4.) Monsters that don't have brains, like trolls, demons, or oozes.

5.) Monsters that are really fast, like Watchers at the Edge of Time, who can close with you and gut you (or cut up your longbow!) before you can beat their Dodge.

6.) Monsters that use trickery, camouflage, invisibility, etc. to prevent you from attacking them before they get in range.

7.) Monsters that burrow through the ground, like landsharks or Tremors graboids.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

Good to know. I suppose it is a similar situation to D&D 5e where in a theoretical scenario, a ranged sharpshooter could kite a big oaf forever, but I've still found ways of dealing with that so I'm sure I could learn to deal with eye-sniping. Still though, a character so good with his bow that he just runs around shooting creatures in their eyeballs to kill seems like a...quirk of GURPS to say the least.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

I actually view 5E's Sharpshooter -5/+10 through the headshot lens too.

The real difference IMO is that in DF a single headshot that lands usually takes out most characters or monsters, whereas killing e.g. a Goristro in 5E takes a dozen or so crossbow bolts to the head, in my interpretation of the rules at least. (And also the fact that in 5E the DM never responds, "the peshkali grins ghoulishly at you through the ruins of her head. The fact that the top half of her head is missing appears to discomfit her not at all." In DFRPG somewhere between 10% and 40% of the monsters are immune.)

This is a feature of DFRPG combat in general: more dodging or parrying because in many cases a single good hit can kill you. Attrition isn't really as much of a thing in GURPS/DFRPG. How you feel about DF may depend to a large degree on how you feel about attrition-based gameplay.

P.S. A good fictional example of a habitual headshotter is Kincaid from the Dresden Files.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

Yeah I also interpret Great Weapon Master in that way too. A massive, skull-splitting blow.

Also thanks for the info. I'm not married to attrition-based gameplay, but I have to admit I don't have much experience outside of it besides Call of Cthulhu and Delta Green, which aren't really games that encourage combat. I'm eyeing DFRPG simply because I still like "Dungeon Fantasy", I just want to try a different way of playing it.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

It's less a quirck of GURPS in general than DF/RPG† specifically.

Since DF/RPG has PCs starting in the (as sjmdw45 suggests) roughly 5th-10th level range of D&D, just when the crazy heroics start to really come out.

DF/RPG is really sneakily an Action game being run in a fantasy setting where the ideals of "Back To The Dungeon" and "Orc and Pie" have been given a lot of free reign. You can certainly run high high-powered social fantasy in it too, but that takes a leetle more work, and DF/RPG works fine for hexcrawls (ironically better as there are professions deliberately tailored to it), and runs great in basically any D&D style you can imagine.

DF/RPG Conan is even easily doable, if you hack away a few professions and just give PCs time to heal naturally...



† I like to hyphenate GURPS Dungeon Fantasy and Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game Powered by GURPS as DF/RPG, because they are slightly separate beasts, they are really the same thing with a few simplifications on the DFRPG side.



Combat is going to be a very different and yet very familiar beast to D&D. It'll feel radically different for a while, but you'll start to see parallels and symmetry, and eventually you'll be able to run DF/RPG just as easily, or (for me these days‡) more so than D&D.


‡ Especially since 3e started with the idea of "making sure all encounters are balanced"... that's not the D&D I grew up with, and that takes waaaaaay more work than I want to put into GMing a game.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

I was just rereading those microfictions and short-stories last night. Never did like Kincaid... until that microfiction.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

It still feels very much like Dungeon Fantasy, and my evidence for that is that every single D&D novel I have ever read from the Prism Pentad to Starlit Night uses the non-attritional model, same as DFRPG. Dramatic tension comes primarily from running up against something tougher than you or running out of luck, not from meeting something weaker than you when you're already cut to bits from fighting so many mooks.

Ditto the recent D&D: Honor Among Thieves movie. Holga doesn't take dozens of wounds in the movie; she dodges and parries and jiujitsus until eventually... she doesn't.

I had plans to do a Film Reroll of that movie with some friends (same scenario, in DFRPG, but maybe a different outcome). Unfortunately we couldn't find a schedule that worked for everybody and then eventually I lost interest. I can share my writeups for Holga and Dorris if you're interested.

The point is, I think you'll like non-attritional play. It's very natural.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

It's very moving, isn't it?

I started liking Kincaid here:

That section always makes me tear up. Poor kid. Poor Kincaid. I can't help liking a man who cares so much about a friendless little girl.

P.S. Aha! Kincaid just ran straight into this rule for Intimidation: "-3 if your goal is to request aid." I guess it's probably still his best influence skill. :-P

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

The actual way most fiction works is by, essentially, dramatic attrition: a significant character usually has to suffer a certain number of dramatic setbacks before being taken out. That doesn't apply to mooks. Now, dramatic setbacks are rarely as bland as hit point loss, though for giant monsters it sometimes really is a wound.

To some degree you can do this in GURPS with plot-tweak powers like luck and serendipity, or by spending xp (or equivalent story points or whatever) for impulse buys, but it's somewhat prone to turning an already somewhat slow combat system into a complete slog.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

You're talking about novels and movies, not game systems, which is kind of like talking about gaming after you filter out all the games which result in failure. But still, even looking at novels and movies, I'm not sure I see this trend happening. In the Dresden Files novels, Murph may have experienced dramatic setbacks prior to spoiler, but Michael Carpenter and Thomas did not. In the recent D&D movie, Honor Among Thieves, Holga did not experience setbacks over the course of the movie unless you count the ones she starts with, being outcast and divorced. In The Suicide Squad, Polka Dot Man is actually on an upward trajectory ("I'm a SUPERHERO!!") when he encounters spoiler.

If the contention is that non-comedic stories are more narratively satisfying when there's some kind of dramatic momentum preventing characters from going from fine to dead instantly, that's plausible, and I agree that Luck can help make your games more likely to be narratively satisfying. So can healing or resurrection magic.

If the contention is that games which turn out to generate narratively-unsatisfying stories of failure are games which shouldn't have been played, I don't agree. The possibility of failure is inherent to challenging scenarios, and for some people including me, challenge is required for fun. Knowing that a really good plan for dragon-slaying reduces the odds of everyone dying--that's why good plans are worth spending mental effort on!

And sometimes it's fun to read stories about everything going wrong, anyway.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

Man, I hate Spoiler, that guy ruins everything. Worse than Adam Conover...

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

I have let dragons power parry arrows with breath, and it's expressly a power of the Void Wyrm

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

Is that House Rules or is it from one of the multitude of GURPS Dragons books/PDFs?

I think Dragons should be able to use applicable breath weapon to "parry" arrows.

Fire - burn them up
Ice - change the aerodynamics/weight them down
Electric/shock - shatter the arrow

I'm not sure any other breath weapon would make sense for a "power parry". I also don't know if any of these are in the various deragon supplements mentioned above.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

Except it isn't moving the entire body. I'd want to be able to get a better dodge with the head than the body. Maybe allow Enhanced Dodge to be applicable to the head on a dragon with flexible neck.

OK, so this is a D&D game play, NOT DFRPG.

*4* fireballs? OK, definitely D&D.

With D&D 5e I think the dragon would be able to pull of some tricks like Legendary Action (I'm pretty new to D&D 5e, but I think there is something like that) to negate or mitigate some of this.


Good, I want the PCs to have to occassionally stock up on anti-magic gear. That's what gets mined in Starmetal Hills (D&D5e reference Swordcoast area near Phandalin).

Noted. Send a velociraptor pack, not a lone T-Rex. Lone ogre dies, make sure he has orc, hobgoblin, and goblin allies to harras the party. Check!

For vitals, humanoids would probably have same locations. But for say a velociraptor, where are the vitals? Eyes are easy, maybe even the heart. But where are things like liver/kidneys and other vitals. I'd think you'd need to be familiar with the creature/monster or make a Physiology(monster/creature type) first to be able to accurately target vitals.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

I've run and played DF and DFRPG for 15 years with dozens of different people. Scouts are ubiquitous to the point that I can't think of a group that didn't have a scout of some kind. And scouts kill things that are vulnerable to arrows at range.

In practice, it's not a problem if you do decent encounter design. Throw in a wide mix of foes - hordes of mundance orcs in one fight, a couple of Sword-Arm Golem in another, several siege beasts with shields after that, a floating electric jelly as a boss. The DF books provide a lot of monster types, so use them all. People have already discussed that at length.

And I'm not sure what is unrealistic about establishing that Fauxgolas, the elf archer, can shoot a bird's eye out at 100 yards, and then realizing that he can shoot out anything's eye out. He's significantly less effective against 10 orc footmen with shields, because he can't do anything about their shield blocks.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

Yes, a velociraptor pack that outnumbers the PCs is tough, especially in favorable terrain like jungle so they can threaten to attack Mr. Wizard from the rear while Mr. Scout is guarding the front. They will probably fail but they'll threaten well enough to create dramatic tension, and if the players don't take the threat seriously they may eat someone.

You may be right about liver and kidneys (you may want to allow Physiology (Mundane) as a specialty) but as you note, eyes are pretty obvious. I think lungs are probably pretty obvious too and they count as vitals. In any case, I'm a fan of "autopsy the monster afterwards to find out about its physiology and weak spots." Just like in XCOM: UFO Defense.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

Hooray again for opposable thumbs! And combined arms tactics.

Adding some numbers to illustrate: a simple DX 11 HT 11 orc, with a medium shield, has Dodge 8 + 2 when unencumbered. He can Dodge and Drop for +3 to defend against an arrow hit, which means that even if Legolas can hit one in the eye with 98% accuracy, it will still take four or five arrows on average to actually get an arrow through his eye (I'm oversimplifying Dodge and Drop tradeoffs here but you get the gist). Meanwhile the other 9 orcs are still closing at 10 mph/Move 5.

Hopefully Fauxgolas and everyone with him invested in extra Move and not just weapon skills or things could get hairy.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

Well, actually, the orc isn't dodging nor Dropping. He's using his Shield-14 skill to get himself a Block of 10, and then adding +2 for medium shield DB, and he's just flat out ignoring 75% of the archer's attacks. Even if Fauxgolas can kill an orc on an undefended hit (he can) and can make a potential hit every second (he can), the orcs trotting forward at Move 4 can expect to close 80 yards before they lose half their members.

So yeah, hooray for opposable thumbs and using tools.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

I'm just saying Dodge-and-Drop-14 (90% success) is sometimes better than Block-11 (62% success) or Block-12 (75% success), depending on how high the orc's Shield skill is. It's nice to have both options.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

Dungeon Fantasy/DFRPG are NOT realistic. It's heroic fantasy, maybe grim hack and slash dungeon crawling. So yes, Scouts with ridiculously high skill and Heroic Archer can shoot out eyes. Personally, what I find odd is big enemies/monsters aren't equipping themselves against this. One issue is dragons in GURPS DF/DFRPG seem to have breath weapons with ridiculously short range. Giants and ogres should hurl the big rocks at scouts and wizards first. I guess just like GURPS PCs, big tough enemies have problems with numbers. One on one I think big enemies probably can take out the scout if they are played intelligently and viciously.

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

In DFRPG, it's a House Rule... in the greater GURPS field it's Power Parries from GURPS Powers.

You don't have to move the entire body for a Dodge, just the part that's in danger.

Oh sure, that's perfectly apporpriate.

Yeah, but it's illustrative of the problem magic can sometimes bring to the table. Granted you won't find too many GURPS Wizards casting that many 5d fireballs back to back, but it's not impossible, just highly unlikely.

In DFRPG that's what the skills Survival, Naturalist, or Veterinary (natural creatures), Hidden Lores, Theology, Thaumatology, etc can be for.

Sure, the book says to use Physiology... but in practice no group of PCs will learn all those separate Physiology specializations, they'll just start turning every fight into a slog of "target torso" if you try to go that route. Allowing a more diverse selection of skills means the Scouts, Druids, Barbarians can use Survival (appropriate area) or Naturalist (Druids can use Veterinary), Wizards will use Thaumatology for golems and constructs (Wizards might actually buy Physiology, they tend to have the high IQ for the skill), Clerics and Holy Warriors* have Theology and Hidden Lore for Undead and Demons, etc.

Just tack a bit of penalty if you think something should be really unfamiliar.


I actually removed Physiology and Psychology from my DF/RPG games, no one ever bothered buying if they didn't have to, it was a points sink to the one PCs profession forced to buy it (Holy Warrior) as they usually failed their rolls unless they dumped lots of points into. It really became the provenance of the occasionally hired sage.


* And allow Holy Warriors to add their Higher Purpose to those rolls. In fact, just let them add Higher to any roll that gives information on or directly opposes their Higher Purpose foe - Stealth, Perception, Intimidation, etc. Your Holy Warriors will appreciate it. Also let Holy Might/Power Investiture add to Exorcism and Esoteric Medicine, just trust me on this (and then be careful to buff up certain things you don't want them to be able exorcise too easily).

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

Don't get too focused on eyes in particular. Yes, an eyeshot that a giant fails to dodge or block will end the giant's participation in the fight (unless he's wearing a full face helmet a la Adventures pg. 108), but so will a halberd to the knee from a strong fighter, or a spell from a Druid/Wizard, or a Song of Command from a bard, or Rapier Wit from a Swashbuckler, or Kiai from a monk.

The lesson to learn here is that in DFRPG the best defense is a good offense, and quantity has a quality of its own, so hit those players hard and fast!

Re: Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG
 

It's not a houserule for the void wyrm.
AFAICT it's not a rule for other dragons, expressly. Although, personally, I had already used it for other dragons before I wrote "More Psionic Threats".