Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
 

As a simulationist old-school veteran GURPS (& TFT & wargaming) GM who hasn't entirely kept up with all of the massive number of GURPS releases over the decades, I'm wondering where the most detailed & realistic travel rules are to be found?

I've got the Basic Sets 1e 2e 3e 4e... and Dungeon Fantasy 16: Wilderness Adventures, and Vehicles and Low Tech 3e & 4e and am getting the Low Tech I & II Pyramid issues and am eyeing the Pyramid issue titled Overland Adventures and wondering if it has better rule content than I already have, or if it's mainly just adventures and ideas. And, if there are other sources I've missed, either for sale or buried in a forum discussion or blog or something.

Thanks!

Re: Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
 

Pyramid 87 Medieval Sea Trade and Pyramid 95 Overland Adventures provides usefull information on this subject. As well as Low-Tech, Low-Tech companion 2 and 3.

But also take into consideration that several factors influence travel speed. Napoleon got his army to the places he needed faster than the enemy would anticipate not because he had superior travelling TL, but because he was willing to plunder the countryside and force march his soldier's to their limits.

Re: Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
 

And his soldiers were willing to do that, because they had good morale.

And that good morale was due to a history of success in battle, as well as oratory skills.

There's always more detail. ;)

Re: Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
 

I am curious - what is your goal with these more detailed rules? Did your players ask for more detail on overland travel?

I am sincerely curious, not being snarky.

Re: Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
 

I and some of my players are quite interested in overland travel, exploration, mapping, and having rules to handle in interesting and detailed ways the various situations that can arise just from having a terrain map and having situations develop even as simple as a broken wagon, slain pack animals, search and pursuit decisions when there are multiple groups on people in multiple places, unexpected weather (or foolishly not bringing adequate clothing or gear, or losing it), getting lost and/or injured, trying to cross rivers, surviving when out of supplies or having just escaped someplace and not having what you'd want to travel & camp outside, etc etc. We're also interested in details such as how far people can realistically travel given different experience, condition, age, encumbrance, footwear, and different plans for how long and hard to march, when to take breaks, how much you can forage, how easy it is to track people or cover tracks, how hard it is to move undetected through a type of terrain with different patrollers on guard, etc. We often don't track such details, but sometimes the situation can suddenly get interesting and/or people want to try interesting techniques to make more time or catch up to someone or something, and so a solid foundation of the best travel rules seem like a very reasonable thing to want to have available.

My first RPG campaign was circa 1980 using The Fantasy Trip: In The Labyrinth, which despite being a fairly short book included the fundamental mode of play that the world is mapped with terrain types and roads and there are rules for how much you can carry and how your leader and other members' abilities affect your ability to not get lost when off-road, and survive outdoors. The details of getting from place to place (and acquiring and perfecting maps of the world, with the GM never showing the players the maps that were the actual accurate terrain) and finding new lands with new situations and opportunities was one of the most intriguing parts of play, and having good travel rules was part of it, and something that was a bit hard to find. With a reasonable map, the players have choices of not just where to go but how to get there, and it's far more interesting if there are appropriate rules that make sense for the challenges and outcomes of trying to travel through different terrain in different conditions. As one friend likes to say, "getting there is half the death!"

Re: Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
 

...Perhaps we should be asking you for such rules. :)

Re: Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
 

Awesome. I swear there were more advanced rules for foraging, starvation, and thirst including long-term fatigue rules in After The End?

Re: Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
 

Remember the arctic rules involving down filled winter gear and snow shoes for TFT? ;)

Re: Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
 

I'll share if I end up making a write-up.


I'll add it to my list of books to check for stuff, thanks.


I remember the winter clothing and freezing rules in Interplay, assuming that's what you mean. Also had other kinds of winter clothes which went straight onto our equipment lists.

Re: Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
 

The notable gap in your list is actually High Tech, which has a replacement, usually seen as superior, to the Basic Set Hiking rules.

It's possible one of the sources you have replicates this, but I don't think so.

Re: Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
 

Ah thanks! I didn't realize there were such rules in High Tech. I think the last time I read through the whole of that book was using the first printing.

Re: Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
 

HT page 55. It's only 2 paragraphs. I think what you want is already in DF 16. It basically uses HT with more detail on determining effective move, terrain effects, etc.

Re: Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
 

DF 16 doesn't appear to have fatigue-per-hour covered in any way. It might have a matching basis for its calculation of daily progress (can't check, can't currently find my HT), but it doesn't provide all the functionality that HT does.

Re: Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
 

One of the missing parts of GURPS is the effect that Area Knowledge should have on travel times. Most of the time, the popular routes are the easiest trade routes rather than the fastest travel routes. I would suggest that a successful Area Knowledge roll should be able to decrease travel times by 10% when traveling on roads (you know when and where there is traffic, which side roads circumvent construction, etc) and by 20% when traveling cross county (you know the best game trails, where to ford streams, etc). When applied to daily travel distances, I would suggest just increasing the distance traveled by 10% on roads or 20% when going cross country with a successful Area Knowledge roll.

Re: Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
 

Unless HT has more hiking info than is provided in the sidebar "Humping, Tramping, and Yomping", neither does HT.

All HT adds is a conversion to mph for overland travel (which DF16 does with far more detail). For everything else (adjusting for terrain, FP costs per hour, extra effort, and foraging) it refers to the BS. And again, for terrain, DF has more detail.

So exactly what functionality is HT adding here?

Re: Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
 

And are we all talking about the same version of High Tech here? i.e. Are you guys talking about the 4e HT? I am on the verge of ordering one, but if it turns out not to have anything more than Dungeon Fantasy has, well, I'd prefer to know in advance.


As for Area Knowledge affecting travel times, I think that's a good general idea but it also seems like something to suggest the GM make a ruling on. A predictable percentage doesn't make much sense to me, as it would vary by circumstance. It also seems like a different sort of thing from the rate of travel on a known route. If there's an abstract modern city situation or road network with car traffic, or a city with very crowded pedestrian traffic, or known shortcut paths in abstract countryside, sure. In some other situations, there might only be one road, or no helpful shortcut. And if the GM has a specific map and the route taken is known, then it wouldn't apply.

Re: Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
 

In my humble opinion, if you buy High-Tech (for the 4th edition, yes), you will be very disappointed. Not because it is a bad book. To the contrary, it is a very good one - the one I use the most. But I use it because I play Call of Cthulhu adventures, and there are a lot of very good hints about roaring 20ies weapons and gear. Now, for what you are looking for, there are only two paragraphs, as it has been said above. Plus some detailed travelling tools, of course.

Sure, those two paragraphs give a much more realistic rate than the one given in the Basic Set. And now that I know it, I use only that one. First, because it is a much more realistic rate (I don't want to revive the huge old threads about hiking rates here - you can easily find them if you want). And second, because it is a rate in miles per hour rather than one in miles per day. So, it allows the players to exactly choose how much hours they want to travel per day, how long they do rest and when, etc. Used with the Basic Set Long Task rules, it gives a much more realistic result than the Basic Set rate. Furthermore, for my own adventures, a rate in miles per hour is much more useful: how long does it take to go to the station on foot is a more frequent question that how many miles can we cover per day.

So, is buying High-Tech a good idea for you?

If you buy it only for that rate, no in my humble opinion. One book for two paragraphs is a bit expansive. But, if you also want more detailed modern weapons and gear, yes, you can buy it. It is really an amazing book, with a lot of very good things.

My hint: look at the excerpt! It will help you to make your decision. And it may also give you the new rate...

Re: Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
 

Yes, that's the correct book.

I can't currently find mine, so I can't really provide a check Corwyn's assertion. It doesn't match my recollection, but that's a weak source.

Re: Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
 

The expanded hiking rules in High Tech are mostly a note that Campaigns uses a simplified model and assumes 16 hour daily forced marches.

I worked some significantly more detailed rules for my hexcrawl campaign. They're basically extrapolations of the existing rules, plus some more specifics on visibility and horizon. The rules for foraging are outdated and would need to be replaced by the new systems from AtE: New World or DF16: Wilderness Adventures.

Anyway, you may want to take a look at them:
http://westmarchsaga.wikia.com/wiki/...on_House_Rules

Re: Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
 

Not really.

It is presented like that, indeed, but it is actually a new rate. To cover with the High-Tech rate what you can cover with the Basic Set rate, you need 20 hours, not just 16... And the Basic Set rate also supposes that you can make one foraging roll while traveling - while with the High-Tech rate, it is clear that you don't have any time to do it. You don't even have any time to rest and to have a full night of sleep...

But ... Oh, my! I'm beginning to revive the too long debates that we had in the past ... Noooo! Please ... Forget what I said. And forgive me ...

Well, the only thing that is important for Skarg is that it really is a new rate, a very useful one if he wants to let his players choose for themselves exactly when they hike, when they rest, how long per day they do it, and so on.

And the good question is: is the rest of the book also interesting for you, Skarg?. Otherwise, I hardly see how the cost of the book would make sense. I'm sure you will find a lot of very interesting things in High-Tech. As I said above, it is the book that I uses the most (after Basic Set, of course). Now, if you only run Medieval campaigns that would really be disappointed ...

Hey, guys! Isn't that rate written somewhere else, in a book which would be more interesting for Skarg? Something like a Low-Tech or DF supplement?
And, by the way, where are the rules about Long Term Fatigue. I tried to remember but didn't succeed ... Yes, Skarg, long term fatigue rules could be very interesting for you. They answer to the main problem of the huge debate about Basic Set hiking rate: being able to cover such a distance (62.5 miles) for a totally untrained character may be possible, once, but surely not several days in a raw without the least health problem.

Re: Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
 

Note that the sidebar "Humping, Tramping, and Yomping" is available in the free preview of High Tech.

Re: Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
 

Yes. That is what I suggested above (without daring to say it frankly).

Now, I'm sure it is somewhere else. It is a so useful and important rule for those who want a more realistic foot traveling rate ... And, in the old huge debate, we sounded to be dozens ...

Re: Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
 

Wow, thanks a lot for the added information, guys!

So I almost bought a $28 PDF download (on sale at the moment for $21.55) for two paragraphs that mainly tell you to pro-rate per hour using Move/2 with the Basic Set modifiers, and to charge 1 hour per forage attempt. And, those two paragraphs are mercifully available in the preview PDF, which would have had me feeling extra-silly if I found out after I bought the PDF. Hehe!

(BTW I do have the original edition of High Tech somewhere, so I appreciate what is probably in 4e High Tech and will probably get it eventually anyway, but still.)

So essentially, this is what I've already been doing since converting my TFT campaign to GURPS in 1987, but with the new idea of using Move/2 as a base marching rate. Hmm.

And, thanks very much to mlangsdorf for the link to the houserule travel system web page. Free and at $14/per paragraph, a $500 value! ;-)

Re: Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
 

After a little research, I read that there was Long Term Fatigue rules in After the End. Can someone who owns those books tell wether it does affect hiking abilities - and wether there are more interesting rules for traveling (it might)?

Re: Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
 

The New World doesn't introduce any new rules for hiking and all the LFP rules are for climate and camping.

Re: Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
 

Thank you very much.

Re: Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
 

The long term fatigue rules in "The Last Gasp" could be applied to hiking, though.

Re: Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
 

I like your write-up, thanks!

One question. In your example in "Sighting and Visibility", (Lenia is on the beach at Cape Shad...), why can she see for 9 miles? Shouldn't it be 3?

Re: Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
 

The Last Gap, in Pyramid, Alternative GURPS 2. That's it! Thank you very much.

Re: Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
 

Originally I had long-term movement rules integrated in, but I was never satisfied with them. The second-by-second Last Gasp never integrated well with longer term movement.

The concept is sound, but a design will need to watch out for edge cases, which is where the original effort foundered. High HT, High Running or Hiking Skill, etc.

Might be mitigated by things like "Trained HT," where the direct impact of high skill (I have Running-25!) is mitigated as a matter of points spent.

Then again, if you've paid for HT 15 and Running-25, maybe you SHOULD be able to cover a 100 mile hike in 10 hours and be chipper and fine at the end.

Re: Where are the most detailed & realistic travel rules to be found?
 

If she were at sea level, she'd only be able to see for 3 miles, but the table assumes that the landscape is higher than that (ie, coastal plains have an average elevation of 50 ft). Scouts get even better horizons because it's assumed they're climbing to the tops of local hills or climbing up trees, as needed, to see a little farther.

Now that the game is dead, I should export one of the old maps that would better explain exactly what is going on in that example.

EDIT: And now I have done that, so there's a picture showing the exact geography and the way that the hills are blocking line of sight.