GenCon Demo Scenario
 

Does anybody happen to have the demo scenario that was used at GenCon? I'm running DFRPG events at GameHoleCon and I have an intro event and I would love to use that scenario (if possible) for the two intros. I know it's balanced and works....something I build probably won't be nearly as competent.

Re: GenCon Demo Scenario
 

It was the intro room from I Smell A Rat. Party started on the stairs, with wandering zombies or spiders as critters spread through the room. Combat options were very limited.

Re: GenCon Demo Scenario
 

We found that limiting the combat helped move it along faster, especially in a demo environment. We explained that the full game gave more options, and sometimes gave examples.

Re: GenCon Demo Scenario
 

Yeah, I didn't mean my comment as a jibe - it was done purposefully as Hunter said, so that the "surprises" that exist relative to That Other Game were on full display:

[1] Yes, with high skill, you never miss. Rolls cluster to 10, and all the PCs had skills of 16+
[2] Oh, crap! Those Zombies can DODGE?
[3] They take a few hits to go down. Unless you're That Guy with 4d+something damage
[4] Oh, *I* can defend too? More than once if I have a weapon AND a shield? And unlimited dodges? Huh. Cool.
[5] I have to choose between move and step-and-attack? OK.

That led to just the right questions.

[1] Why bother with all that extra skill? --> Deceptive Attack, Hit Locations, Rapid Strike.
[2] They dodge? Hah! --> Deceptive Attack, Feint
[3] A few hits? --> Hit Location, Rapid Strike, All-Out Attack (Double)
[4] Actually, this stood on its own
[5] Can't I move AND attack --> Move and Attack; Heroic Charge

So one thing led to another pretty well, and the first demo was basically tactical movement and "don't get dogpiled" plus a lesson on active defense rolls.

It was VERY effective.

Re: GenCon Demo Scenario
 

This choice I don't understand.

It makes much more sense on almost every level to have had the the zombies all out attack.

It fits Zombies more thematically and it massively speeds up play.

The only possible negative is that it doesn't show how to get through defences, but you can entirely do that from the Zombie side. Eg All out attack deceptive. "The zombie lurches at you exceptionallly quickly".

I frequently have enemies all out attack in GURPS for faster fights and to show players why all out attack can be such a bad idea.

Re: GenCon Demo Scenario
 

It's also tactically superior for the zombies. All-out attack is bad when your active defenses are over 10 (including retreat, if that's a viable option) but most zombies aren't that good. Most of the time, swarms of low skill foes are best off using all-out attack (determined or double) -- sure, they get hit twice as often, but they also hit twice as often, plus they get more mobility and more hits per turn drains active defenses faster.

Re: GenCon Demo Scenario
 

Plus there's a lot to do on an all out attack.

All out attack double, all out attack strong, the deceptive attack option I mentioned and so on.

When the PCs cant really All out attack safely in a demo like this the best way to teach the players about all out attacks is to have the monsters do it.


And last time I checked Zombies (often) have Beserk so showing them go beserk is useful too.

Re: GenCon Demo Scenario
 

As someone who watched the demo, saw how advanced questions were handled by the guy demoing it, and the result of playing this was completely the right call. One thing I found at GenCon was that if it took more than 10-15 minutes to demo you lost people. They grew bored. There were much more shinier things just over the bend. Cutting the choices down to the bare minimum was the exact right call. Moreover, answering the questions when the players asked about other parts of the DFRPG helped to actually sell the game to players even more. I watched this happen dozens of times.

TL;DR Complicating a demo is a bad idea because you're going to be unlikely to sell the game in the first place due to the player's impatience.

Re: GenCon Demo Scenario
 

Making the monsters all out attack isn't complicating the demo.

You also save a dice roll and time every hit.

No one suggested complicating the demo rather simplifying it even further.

Doug made reference to all the different types of attacks so they were already in the demo.

Re: GenCon Demo Scenario
 

If you're doing more than attack, defense, or move you're complicating the demo.

Really, one point I left out was that while simplifying you also need to showcase the system in some ways to set it apart. Most of the people who were attracted to that demo were either GURPS players or DnD players. I know. I asked. DnD doesn't allow a defense roll - that was considered novel by more than 3/4 of the people playing. By having the zombie's all-out attack as you suggest it takes away one of the core mechanics of GURPS while adding nothing.

Re: GenCon Demo Scenario
 

By having the zombies Dodge, you teach players that Dodge is a thing in GURPS. To me, that seems more important than what makes tactical sense for the zombies.

You can explain All-Out Attack if it comes up, but showing fundamental features of GURPS is a higher priority.

Re: GenCon Demo Scenario
 

By having the PCs dodge you teach them that dodge is a thing in GURPS.

That's showing a fundamental feature right there.




Which means you cant reload, change posture, feint and so on.

Reloading bows is probably something you want to let people do.

And from what Doug wrote Feints and so on WERE in the demo.

By making the zombies all out attack you do not take away a key feature of GURPS in comparison to D&D because the PCs still get a dodge, parry and/or block.

Im surprised that I have to point that out here to people familiar with PC defence rolls.

Active Defence is going to be pretty obvious the first time one of the PCs is hit, and then defends. You are then going to have to explain DB and so onto them.

I'll give you that players might think that only PCs get an active defence but I doubt it, because sooner or later one of them will all out attack and lose it. They'll see the difference right then.

Re: GenCon Demo Scenario
 

I don't recall people using ranged attackers much if at all. I recall seeing Feints maybe one or twice, but not often.



Which is only part of the equation. "So I can dodge but they can't?" seems like a tiresome question to answer repeatedly.


Pretty much. Again, I was there. It worked. People liked what they saw. I'm not about to armchair quarterback the GM or the demo folks. That's bout all I need to say on the subject I think.

Re: GenCon Demo Scenario
 

That's the important thing. We had mostly non-GURPS people running this demo all weekend and it ran fine and people came away, by and large, more interested in GURPS (or at least the DFRPG) than when they started. Would an experienced GURPS player have made different tactical choices? Certainly - but that wasn't the point of the demo. One of the points of the demo WAS to show how DFRPG differs from other fantasy RPGs the players may have seen, and zombies who can dodge attacks are very different from the mindless shamblers in other games.

Most important, however, it worked. Nitpicking the demo for not doing something it was never intended to do misses the point entirely, I think.

Re: GenCon Demo Scenario
 

Asking questions about an event or offering suggestions for it is not armchair quaterbacking.
The 1940s origin of the expression is an non expert offering advice and opinion (presumably to an expert)
It seems to have expanded to someone who says what to do without getting involved..

I've just asked why a decision was made and given reasons for trying something different.

Most of the reviews for DFRPG have pointed out things that they would have preffered while saying it works Most players I have ask questions and suggest different ideas while still agreeing thst the session worked.


I hope the suggestion is considered and accepted/rejected in the spirit in which it was given.

Re: GenCon Demo Scenario
 

Demonstrating basics of GURPS combat (PCs and NPCS both make active defenses) > verisimilitude of enemy tactics

Re: GenCon Demo Scenario
 

The simple fact is that we timed these demos in the office, running them with the options we chose. They came in at a speedy 5 minutes, which is where you want your demo to be at a convention like Gen Con. They have to:

A. Appeal to non-fans
B. Be fun
C. Be fast

Adding any options to a players choices means the game is going to go over time and you're going to either lose their interest, or even worse, give them a bad first experience. We wanted heroes to be able to hit the monsters pretty much every time, but also show them that the monsters had a way to defend themselves, hence one choice for defense on the sides. I completely understand the desire to give players a lot of options to give them an example of the entire system, but that just is not conducive to a good general demo. We did provide them with further information about the system ("There's more options than we are providing, like X, X, and X, this is just a quick demo to give an example), or if an existing GURPS player game up, Jimmie and Ben were able to give some more detailed rundowns of the differences.

However, for the general, mass consuming audience, this demo was just about the perfect distillation of what we could do with Dungeon Fantasy RPG in 5 minutes.

Re: GenCon Demo Scenario
 

It might make sense to just use a different foe type than zombies. Skeletons with shields perhaps, we know from Jason and the Argonauts that skeletons block.

Re: GenCon Demo Scenario
 

So Skeletons that can shield block is perfectly realistic but dodging Zombies , now that... that is unrealistic?

Re: GenCon Demo Scenario
 

Nothing to do with realism, just tradition. Zombies are supposed to be slow plodding hordes.

Re: GenCon Demo Scenario
 

The demo shows that GURPS allows for zombies that aren't, demonstrating the system's flexibility. How is this bad?

Re: GenCon Demo Scenario
 

I see zombies in everything from Resident Evil to Game of Thrones that are counter to that "tradition."

Re: GenCon Demo Scenario
 

Yeah. I think what counts as a Zombie, especially after a big game like Left 4 Dead has many different types, I'd rather go for different types of Zombies so I can show players GURPS strengths. The last thing I want is somebody walking away saying 'I can already do all of that in X'

Re: GenCon Demo Scenario
 

To clarify a bit on what we did and didn't use in the stock demo:

• There were no ranged attacks, it was strictly a melee combat.
• Players' and Monsters' options were to: Move, or Move up to one hex and attack.
• The zombies originally had shields, Ben and I opted to remove them because if they could block *and* dodge, the demo became long, and sometimes frustrating for the players.

I know this sounds super-minimal to an experienced player, but this gives us 5 - 10 minutes to teach the following to a group of 1 - 4 people, who may have zero tabletop RPG experience:

• What the game is, and help them pick a character
• Hex movement and facing
• Attack rolls
• Active defense rolls
• Damage, Hit Points, and Damage Reduction
• Basic combat tactics

...and finish the fight, as well.

In addition, it has to be a fun experience, not just a rules explanation, and leave them wanting to play more, and seeing why they should choose this system over the other few dozen RPGs (at least) that are also vying for their time in the same hall.

As Doug pointed out, things that led to questions were used to point out the depth of the system, if the players weren't overwhelmed by all the new info already.

You might also be quite surprised how short a couple minutes of talking can be when trying to explain something, especially interactively, to someone.

Ultimately, a demo has different goals than sitting down to play a game, and especially in a large convention environment, you are vying for a very few minutes of someone's attention when there are a ton of other things doing so as well (other game, their kids, lunch, when the next scheduled event is, etc.).

Also, credit where credit is due: Ben and I didn't create the demo, we ran it. The DFRPG authors put it together for us.

Re: GenCon Demo Scenario
 

I was at GenCon...I walked by the DFRPG booth quite a few times. Heck, at one point I was there and I got to see Steve Jackson...and that was awesome!

But not once did I play the DFRPG demo. Maybe I should have...but I didn't. Why not? Because there were always long lines of people brand new to GURPS and I didn't want to take up time at the table with my old-hand self, when really that demo was for new folks. And from everything I hear, it was really good for them.

Now, the only reason why maybe I should have done the demo was so that I could reproduce it myself for other newbies. But live and learn. I did the Ogre demo instead and that was awesome for me...because I'd never played Ogre before....even though I own the massive Kickstarter edition.