Dungeon Fantasy RPG template formatting
 

(I know there's a Dungeon Fantasy thread, but now that some Kickstarter backers have the PDFs, and that we're something like 2 months away from the release, it's probably going to be worth more than one thread.)

I really like the change in the template format used in Dungeon Fantasy. It does take more space, meaning a higher page count for less overall text. This is a disadvantage, but I think it's well worth it. Just from a visual point of view, it's much clearer just what you get and what you choose between with a template, and makes the game feel much less complicated (even though in reality it's exactly as complicated as it was before).

I did like the definition of primary, secondary, and background skills, which is no longer there. However, I can see why you'd not bother to mess with that for DF. That consideration is more important when creating templates.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy template formatting
 

Yes, as I posted n the review thread I love the new templates. Even in a B&W book where you dont have the color the two column format is much better than a bullet separated list.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG template formatting
 

Rob, I edited your thread title slightly to be utterly unambiguous.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG template formatting
 

Cool, thanks.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG template formatting
 

I haven't held a copy of the Dungeon Fantasy books, but I did freeze-frame SJG's unboxing video where you can see the wizard template, just to see the new format everybody's raving about. It seems the primary point of interest is that trait choices now get listed in two columns and in the accent color of the page.

I thought I'd try to reproduce that in Microsoft Word, and it ain't easy! The page itself is in two columns, and the trait choices are in two columns. In Word, you can't have columns within columns, and you can't have columns within text boxes. Tables don't work, since they don't flow, and some entries take more than one line, so unless you want to hand-arrange every entry, and redo the whole thing if you find you forgot something, they're no good. Things are similar with tabs. (This format is undoubtedly much easier in desktop publishing software.)

I finally found a solution: create two empty text boxes side by side in the column, each half the width of the column. Select the left text box, then in the box formatting ribbon, click Link, then click the right box. They're now linked for flowing text. Enter the traits one on a line. Once they're all entered, raise the bottom of the left box and let the text reflow until they're even on both sides. Then raise the bottom of the right box by the same amount.

Doing this seems to constrain the following line outside the text boxes to the width of the left text box. I haven't figured out what to do about this (any ideas?), though an extra carriage return returns the line length to the full column, so you can add an extra, very small, line.

Will there be a formatting guide for Dungeon Fantasy authors, I wonder?

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Authors dont do layout. It would likely just be a list or series of boxes.

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I suspect that authors would be asked to handle that as a table.

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Which is a lot more complex and harder to read than a list.

Also brings the joy of tab/space checks.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG template formatting
 

No, it wont appear as a table.
I am looking forward to an updated style guide to tell us so I do not actually know. However I can see it as a 2 column table when submitting it and layout changes it to whatever it is.

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I think not including the relative skill level is something of an issue.
You better have all the attributes associated with the skills memorized if you plan on raising them any.

I think if they needed to remove one number or the other between the absolute and relative skill level, it would have been more informative to say:
Broadsword-DX+2[8]
than
Broadsword-14[8]

Especially true for skills that float to other attributes often.

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I've seen the original Word documents. It's a bunch of two-column tables.

Not for the author. I compose tables as tables, convert to text, and apply styles just before submitting. After that, it's Steven and Nikki's problem, and they can handle it.

Speaking from the author side of things, I'd prefer working with the new format, should that come to pass. The tables spread things out and make it easier to read than the dense-pack HANG blocks.

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Ouch. That means each multi-line entry is positioned in separate cells manually, and any mistake means shifting every entry below it manually as well. If the columns read top to bottom and then left to right, it also means counting how many entries you have so you know when to switch to the second column.

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Its a lot easier than that if you follow the GURPS Style Guide.

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Two columns aren't so bad to check.

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I've been thinking about this for a while because it's challenging when you start adding in bonuses from advantages. For instance, the Bard profession has the Acting Skill and the option for the Born Entertainer advantage. So, a bard with IQ 14 and 2 points in Acting will have Acting (IQ+0) 14 [2], which can be accurately abbreviated as Acting-IQ+0 [2]. But, when the bard takes a level of Born Entertainer, they have Acting 15, even though there are still only 2 points in that skill.

I see a couple of ways to handle this notation for simplified template formats:

1) Notate skill levels and advantage bonuses separately. For instance, Acting (IQ+0+1) [2]. It's clear that the base skill level has a contribution from both the skill points and an advantage. It's not the prettiest, but it works.

2) Notate the final relative skill level only. In this case, it would be Acting (IQ+1) [2]. There's no information lost; the player still knows that they have put two points into the skill, so the next skill advancement requires an additional 2 points (even though IQ+1 would normally entail a 4 point jump to the next level of IQ+2). On the flip side, the disconnect between the relative skill level and the point cost could be confusing for new players, and would be an additional source of error for GMs to check when verifying character sheets.

3) Use superscripts. The bard would have Acting (IQ+1)* [2], with a footnote (*Includes +1 from Born Entertainer). The templates already do this with the advantages built into professions, but it gets messy when there are lots of advantages involved because it's necessary to use a lot of different superscript characters, and it requires more space because the footnotes each require an additional line.

I'm leaning towards option 2 as my preference but I'm curious what others think.

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It's been a while since I used any publishing software (probably high school newspaper), but it gives you understandably superior page layout options.

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The choice to omit relative skill level and points invested from the skill lines is, while understandable, a bit of a hassle when it comes time to improve skill levels, whether directly or from attribute increases.

I have more of an issue with the choice of red for the skill section. Red on white isn't the best for visibility, and the skill section is already noticeably off-set from the rest of the template.

Other than those, I think they look pretty good. Much more readable overall!

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The colour problem lept out at me, too.

I think it's the same sort of brownish-orange-y spoiled fruit colour as the headers for this section - but the headers are mottled with a dark grey, while the text is the pure dirty orange thing. This makes the text lighter, and reduces contrast against the background. A dark brown (which is "darker orange" by a better name) or maroon (dark red) would have been fine.

From my understanding of red-green colourblindness the orange-y colour they went with shouldn't be exceptionally harder to read? Since you don't actually have to distinguish between two colours the exact hue shouldn't matter as much as the overall contrast with the background even if you have red-green or blue-yellow colourblindness. I think. I'm not 100% sure on this point.

Aside: I don't have some sort of sensible colourblindness, but for some reason I can't find a bright red thing in amongst green stuff. So I just don't recommend contrasting those things ever. Red means stop, green means go? Terrible idea.

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Interestingly enough, I have red/orange color blindness. To me they look great, a nice brown on white, easily read.

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I was introducing GURPS to someone in an online format...just by describing things...then that person (a complete newbie to GURPS) made a bit of an example character for me to look at. Knowing that skills can float to other attributes, this is how he listed his skills:

Guns, +2 [4]

I thought that was really elegant, and emphasized the possibility of floating.

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This is a really natural notation for folks who have played games in the World of Darkness style, where (hypothetically) any skill can be used with any of the nine attributes. If a hypothetical 5e were to roll around and we were allowed to slaughter some sacred cows, changing skills to just note relative skill level would definitely be my suggestion. This will call on the GM to ask for a "DX plus Traps" roll or an "IQ plus Traps" roll, rather than just Traps, but I don't know that it's a big burden to say it that way.

OTOH, GURPS 4e doesn't really have a lot of options for where to float your skills to compared to the nine for World of Darkness. Further, the nine WoD attributes were on equivalent scales so floating rolls to Strength didn't produce as wonky results as floating to ST could in GURPS. And in practice many WoD skills didn't really float around much.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy RPG template formatting
 

That final bit is the important part. I can't count the number of times the Storyteller started combat by declaring "roll Wits+Alertness" or how many times I rolled "Dex+Brawl" or "Dex+Firearms." I do know that I very rarely rolled against "Brawl+Apperance" or "Firearms+Stamina." I always wanted to create a list of all combinations and create a list of tasks for as many of them as I could, but the thought of going through 9x30(=270) combinations to try to justify tasks for them was more work than I cared to do.

In GURPS there are relatively few skills that will float; most of the ones that do are going to be DX-based skills with a knowledge component attached - Roll IQ-based Guns to clear a misfire or IQ-based piloting to figure out why the plane won't start. There's not a lot of calls for Knowledge- or Persuasion-based skills to float to other attributes; the likelihood of rolling a DX-based Physics roll or HT-based Diplomacy is pretty slim.

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I float quite often and if it were just listed as Att+1, people might float more often.

There have been a number of threads on floating already, so I won't repeat all the ideas people have for floating Mental Skills to Will, Health, etc. But there have been lots of ideas.

Also it might be helpful to reverse the thinking...not...what skills can I float to strength, but if I'm trying to use strength to muscle my way through something, which skills in this situation might be helpful. This could inspire you to think about a moment when ST+Architecture might be useful.

Maybe I'll make a simplified character sheet...Hm...

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Unless you are trying to cause a building collapse, you should be rolling ST+Force Entry to 'muscle through'.

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But what about if you're trying to support a destabilized structure long enough for civilians to flee? Knowing where best to put yourself does sound handy.

Now I'd actually handle that as a complimentary skill roll rather than floating to ST, but I'm generally against ST or HT based skill rolls. That makes me biased :)

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Yes, another perfect opportunity for a skill float.

Ditto. But mostly because Complimentary skills means more Players will try to take advantage of Action 2's Complimentary skills and Teamwork rules, which I'm all for.

It somewhat decreases the "Jack of All Trades" characters... somewhat.

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I prefer #3. Information is power. :)

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I favor Acting +1(12)[2]. If there's a talent modifying it and it applies regardless of stat, I'd put a * after the +1; if it only affects IQ-based acting rolls I would put it after the (12).

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For those of us who only bought the physical version, and now have to wait for it (and will be buying the PDFs when available), is there an SJG-approved screenshot of a template?

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Here's a screen cap I pulled from the Unboxing Video posted on Facebook. The text is blurry because he's literally flipping through the pages and the template is only visible for a half a second, but you can clearly see the new formatting and layout.