Alternative Psionics
 

Hey all, I'm beginning a new campaign tonight that is essentially High-Tech/Ultra-Tech with Psionics (maybe the occasional mage for shock factor).

I'm seeking feedback on alternative ways to model psionics away from the Advantage -> Talent -> Skill framework. Making the characters, I ran into exactly what David Pulver mentioned in Pyramid 3-29 with underpowered psionics in other chargen aspects. I think I might discuss David's method of using spells as psionics with my group tonight.

Has anyone tried simply removing the Talent step out of Psionics? If so, did it seriously break the Psionic characters in relation to the mundanes? Just looking at it ledger-wise, that seems to give a psychic back a lot of points.

I'm curious as to any other alternatives or ways that you all have adapted the rules at your tables. I said on another GURPS discussion list I'm on, I've owned GURPS 4e since 2005ish, but life has repetitively conspired to prevent me from being able to play and use it until recently. Now I'm trying to relearn the little I knew and at the same time work my way through the multitude of other information that the game has accumulated since my first forays.

I appreciate any ideas!

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

This is a common challenge in ultratech settings. If the best way to handle an advantage that can be reproduced with technology is by treating it as technology.

the two most useful tools for this method are the accessory perk and the license perk. sometimes if you've got a good enough advantage an usual background is appropriate. The other way they pay for the ability is with skills dedicated to using it.

So I'd suggest dropping the advantage cost, not the talent (which is really just part of the skill cost).

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

Additional world info is that psionics and tech aren't going to be interchangeable with each other. For example, a character with a cybernetic radio in his head can't transmit into someone else's head like a telepath can. Or am I misunderstanding what you mean?

I think I understand the error in my logic, though.

I thought you had to have Telekinesis to get TK Grab, then the skill for TK Grab. I was calling TK Grab the talent when it is its own advantage. So the only real way to reduce the points is to make it a 0-Point Advantage (without limitations, that is)? Am I correct in that?

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

The big problem is that you need a way for someone capable of, say, Mind Reading to be better at it than someone else. The treatment in 3/e had psionic skills that could be bought up. In 4/e, you roll against IQ (for example); but if you take Telepathy Talent, that makes your effective skill higher. If you don't have Talent, anyone who wants to be good at Mind Reading will have to buy up their IQ. That is an option—lots of fictional telepaths are smart, from Odd John to Kimball Kinnison to Professor X—but if you don't want to go that way, I recommend thinking about other ways for a character to be good at a psionic ability.

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

You obviously have Psionic Powers. In that framework "Talent" still means the psionic Talents found in Basic such as TK Talent 5pts/level adds to all rolls to use TK.

With just Basic all rolls to see if the psi ability is used correctly are against IQ+Talent. Psionic Powers adds Psionic Skills which enable you to raise your roll by learning a Skill. This enables much higher target numbers.

If you don't care for the results of the pre-built Powers in Psionic Powers you can certainly build your own. I find PK's builds frequently overly complicated as a matter of design philosophy myself.

If you really don't want to build your own Powers and/or find Basic costs for some abilities (like perhaps Telesend) to be overly expensive then Pulver's Pyramid 3/29 article may indeed be your simplest alternative.

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

An alternative approach is to concentrate on using psionics for things that tech can't do, or can't do conveniently. Mind reading, rapid healing, things like that. Don't try to compete with technological guns or armour using psionics, because that's way too expensive.

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

Yeah, talents just boost skill. The advantages are the real buy in.

The main trick with dropping the advantage part and just requiring talent and skill is that characters will always go for the absolutely highest possible level of the advantage. And most of the time there is a big difference. If you can solve that, I think it will work out fine.

One way to handle that is to declare all people have a given psionic power at the same level. This makes the ability yet more tech-like, as all telepaths have work at about the same range. You can set this to be at whatever level you like.

Another way is to say to tie the ability to the level of talent you have: perhaps 1 level of talent lets you have 20 points worth of abilities, or all abilities in your power under 10 points. Or you can do a decent amount of work to set all psis with the same talent to have the same limit on what they can use.

The above methods all basically give free points, from a classic gurps perspective. If its necessary to get your genre to work, then that's what it takes. Additionally, realize you'll want to give some kinds of ability more love in an ultra-tech setting, particularly physical defenses and TK.

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

Such as the Reliable (+5%/level) enhancement?

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

.....and it is an issue that Reliable will always be cheaper for any Power that has a base cost of less than 100 pts.

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

The psi talents are only five points. If you have so much as two psibiities, it's cheaper to have the talent.

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

Only if you assume a 100-point base cost for the advantage. Most psi advantages cost way less than that.

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

I created a psi system that used Realm Magic as a its base. It's type of psionic power was a given "realm." I had six tiers total. Worked quite well. I had a single controlling VH skill for each power. It worked pretty decently.

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

Would that mean that ESP was spread across several or all Realms, since 'Sense' (Detection and Measurement) is the first thing you learn to do with a Realm?

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

Just Telekinesis for a remote sense of touch right? I mean Telepathy and Ergokinesis already have sensory elements. Oh wait, Teleportation. That would be awkward since it would automatically mean you could sense your destination at a distance.

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

I'd have to check my notes, but for most it functioned as a "I can detect uses of my power vaguely" and then more precision at 3 or 4. For some powers (like TK), it instead worked as a kind of "remote sense of touch."

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

Its worth noting that you can split up realms into whatever levels you like: the levels given in the book are (solid) examples. Though it appears something at least similar was used.

I don't think realms are a good way to save points though: they're generally nice because of their flexibility, not because they are a bargain.

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

Sorry for the delayed responses, Sunday was the Honey-Do day yesterday I didn't get on my computer at all either.

So in no specific order:

Yes, I have Psionic Powers and am definitely going to use it at the least. As others have said, I'm a fan of the skills for Psionics in it. Which is what I was originally envisioning when I posted - Generic Telekinesis + some number of the Telekinesis skills found in Psionic Powers instead of the TK Grab advantage. That is what I meant by removing the "talent" step of the equation. Then I caught my error in my logic. Isn't that essentially the same model as Magic with Magery, though?

Unfortunately, I'm already committed to Psi-Sword from the Pyramid article, Data Retrieval from Psionic Powers and a few others in the character builds. One of the characters comes from an Amish-style Psychic culture -> no tech if we can do it with our minds instead.

Yeah...I'm trying to avoid blatantly free points, or at least free points that overpower the mundanes. I can always offset with cooler gear, but I'm trying to find a way to do this without forcing myself to be Santa Claus at the same time.

Realm magic? I don't recall seeing that one yet. Is it in Magic or Thaumatology? Or somewhere else?

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

Power to generically possess a type of Psi and skills to use it different ways would effectively be 3e Psionics. 4e just doesn't work that ways. It's Powers to be able to do a specific task and skills to do it well. Psi Powers does introduce Psionic Techniques which does complicate matters rather a bit.

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

If you want really, really cheap psi, consider the "Magic as Psi" from Pyramid #3/29.

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

Oh, ok. I have a few 3e books for setting-type stuff (Alternate Earths, Conspiracy X, etc.) but haven't looked at the rules for 3e at all.

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

I think that's the way I'm leaning. I think I'll give my group a few more games with the RAW before I start tweaking stuff. That'll give me time to make some NPCs for comparative purposes, as well.

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

This brings up a design theory question. Has it been said or does anyone know why the substantial difference between Psionics and Magic exist in GURPS. Most games I've played treat them essentially the same (when they exist together, that is).

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

It's in GURPS Thaumatology under syntactic magic.

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

The standard magic system, that appears in the Basic Set and GURPS Magic, is actually quite old - it dates back at least to GURPS 2e, if not earlier (I think it might actually have appeared in the very earliest GURPS products, but I'm not sure). Anyway, that age means it has some issues, stuff that I don't think would probably get put in if it was being designed with modern GURPS ideas. Notably, it allows for a lot of absolute abilities (Utter Dome/Wall spells, for example, are invulnerability, which 4e GURPS doesn't generally allow for cheap at all), and even the 4e version of Magic suffers from some conversion issues, where older terminology wasn't properly updated.

The Psionics system, on the other hand, is newer. The 3e system was introduced in that era, of course, so it's somewhat closer to modern-day GURPS. The 4e system, however, is deliberately designed to fit into current sensibilities - it takes full use of the enhancements and limitations that 4e made standard for advantages, for instance.

If you're asking "why have different systems at all", though, the answer is probably "because we can"? Expanding on that a bit, one of GURPS' strengths is that it's flexible enough to build different power systems and roughly balance them against each other. So, if you have two different sets of supernatural abilities that actually tend to work rather differently from one another, why not build them as two separate systems, to properly model their different behaviors? Building them on the same framework means you risk warping one or the other in order to fit into a model not designed for it, dissatisfying fans of the compromised set.

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

The roots of Gurps Magic date back to Fantasy 1e (then Magc 1e) and for Psionics it's Gurps Horror 1e (followed by its' own book). Both were Gurps 1e products.

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

How did it work in Wizard?

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

There wasn't any actual "psi" in Wizard. There weren't anything but Wizards and summoned creatures in Wizard. It was a microgame about Wizards. :)

There was a Telekinetic Fist spell and that sort of thing.

There may or may not have been a psionic "Talent" or two in the full Fantasy Trip. Those were effectively advantages.

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

I mean, how did magic work?

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

You bought a spell from a possible number of them equal to your IQ. Selection of spells was also limited to those of your IQ level. Better spells took higher IQs. You paid ST pts to cast spells and at least sometimes rolled against DX in the casting process (it's been a _long_ time).

There was no HT stat.

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

Fred's description is pretty good.

The Wizard system is recognizably the ancestor of the one in GURPS Magic, especially considering the differences and simplicities in the TFT system and its later evolution into GURPS. (What's this weird new HT stat? Who needs that?)

Spells cost a point each during character build, have a skill level based on IQ (all TFT "skills" matched your IQ/DX; "skill" wasn't a separate thing), roll 3d6 to successful cast, casting costs a variable amount of fatigue points depending on the spell, resting more rapidly restores fatigue than the once/day allocation of "mana points" or "spell slots" that was common back in the day.

Casting is oriented to combat time, taking just a turn or two for most effects, with the effect scale also being somewhat similar to the Melee weapon effects. (This is a marked contrast with, say, AD&D 1e, where spells tending to be encounter-winning trump cards with the strategy being when best to use your limited number during the dungeon, and with wizards often having nothing useful to do because a fight wasn't worth blowing a spell.) Wizard-versus-warrior could be an interesting fight over a few turns, rather than save-or-die, as you might expect from the arena-combat microgame origins.

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

Ah, ok. I just bought and downloaded that last week. I haven't gotten to it yet on my reading list.

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

I'm trying to think of RPGs from the roughly same time as when the GURPS magic and psionics systems were being developed. In most of them treated magic and psi very differently, although I can't think of too many which had both magic and psi. In both 1st and 2nd edition of AD&D, psioncis were very different from the magic system. In 1st edition, psi were just special powers that your character might randomly have, and in 2nd edition there was a psionisist class, but the system was radically different from the Cleric or Wizard spell casting system. The Paladium RPGs (Rifts, Paladium Fantasy, and Beyond the Supernatural) also had a psi system which differed a fair amount from the magic system

In contrast, I remember the Rolemaster games and the games from Bard Press (Atlantis and Talislanta) having "mentalist" classes which were basically just another type of magic user.

Also, I'd like to give a warning that the 3rd edition Psionics rules had some balance issues. I personally like the general design of 3rd edition Psionics, but points-wise they are much cheaper than 4th edition.

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

Before I go and start making alterations (even as the option Pulver gives in Pyramid), I want to make sure I'm understanding them as written. Maybe I've just been thinking too much on them...

So, please bear with me.

Basic Set had 6 psionic powers. Now with Psionic Powers, we have 10 and a multitude of Abilities.

In Basic Set, Telekinesis allows you to:
- move objects without touching them
- use objects like you have a set of hands, etc.
- Strike/Grapple
- Levitate
- Throw things

With Psionic Powers, it's actually broken out those bullets (essentially, some are grouped together) as the Ability and a corresponding skill. You can add a talent to a category and it applies to all abilities in that category? The parent Telekinesis advantage in Basic is no longer needed to be taken. If using the more detailed Psionic Powers system.

Or you can take the standard Telekinesis by choosing Telekinetic Control.

Do I have that right?

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

If I understand your problem, you're saying the Psionic abilities as a power framework is too expensive, costing to many character points to first buy the ability, and then the skill. Your first suggestion was to use "spells as psionics" where you change the power framework into a skill-based approach. This would reduce the cost of learning psionics, and thus allow a psi character to have many abilities.

I'd suggest a possible variation. Use the GURPS Psionic Powers book to define how your psi abilities work, but give the abilities (i.e., advantages) for free. If they learn the psionic skill, then they can use the ability. Basically, it's like a skill-based magic system, except you're using the psionic abilities to define how they work. The abilities will therefore certainly have more of a psionic feel to them.

The one item you'd have to work out is how to differentiate the levels for some psionic abilities. With the "magic as spells", levels of power are defined by the amount of Energy you have to provide to power the spell, thereby keeping it in balance. Using a "psionics skill" approach based on the power framework, I'd recommend that, for every 10 full character points of value of the ability you're trying to activate, you receive a -1 penalty to your skill roll. (If you prefer an Energy cost like "magic as spells", then just have every 10 character points of ability cost 1 Energy... but I find this makes it too much like magic, and at which point you may as well go with spells as psionics... also, it may be a flavor-based issue if you have both magic and psionics in the campaign as its nice, flavor-wise, to have different powers work differently).

For example (using the 10 point threshold), I want to use the Astral Armor psionic ability (Psionic Powers, p.26). To do so, I need the Astral Projection Talent and need to purchase the Astral Armor skill, as well as the Astral Travel skill as a prerequisite. The ability costs 3/level. With only the skill, I can therefore activate up to level 3 at no penalty, up to level 6 at -1, at up level 10 at -2, up to level 13 at -3, etc. I could theoretically, with just 1 point in the Astral Armor skill, attempt to activate an Astral Armor with DR 100... but that would be at -10 to skill.

As another example, using Astral Travel, to get the ability, you only need the Astral Travel skill. Looking at the cost of the ability for levels 1 to 6, to use Astral Travel at level 1 is at -2 to skill, -3 to skill for level 2, -4 for level 3, -5 for level 4, -6 for level 5, and -8 for level 6.

That's what it looks like with a 10 point threshold. Play around to find the levels you like for your game. Perhaps a -1 per 5 points will keep the powers more in check, or you can go for -1 per 20 points if you clearly want super-psis.

You otherwise apply all the usual rules for psionic abilities as per GURPS Psionic Powers. This includes the requirement of Psionic Power Talents as prerequisites, the -1 to skill rolls for every currently active ability of the same power talent, the ability to use psi techniques at a penalty to skill (on top of the penalty based on the cost of the underlying ability) and a cost of 2 FP, etc.

One change I'd recommend for balance purpose is to eliminate the ability to use psionic skills at default. Like mage spells, make them spend at least 1 point on the skill to let them use it.

Anyway, that should let you built a relatively powerful psi with just a few points while still maintaining the flavor of psi defined in GURPS Psionic Powers rather than the flavor provided in GURPS Magic.

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

"Standard TK" is TK-Grab, and having messed with psionic powers for awhile, I can safely say that's 90% of what most people will do with TK. Psionic Powers adds TK bullet (not just throwing things, but throwing small things fast enough that they're better treated as innate attacks) TK-Crush (Which destroys internal organs). I don't know if levitate is included in Telekinetic Control, but the idea of buying it is that it's cheaper to just take flight than to take TK for the purpose of floating around.

So Telekinetic Control is not "GURPS standard telekinesis," it's the sum of Psionic Powers TK rolled into a single ability, which actually makes a lot of sense, because if you're crushing someone's throat, you're probably not using TK-bullet, and if you can only do one of these at a time, conceptually, you're talking about alternative abilities.

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

From my perspective, 4E was ushered in not only to fix some of the game mechanics, but also deal with the issue of pricing abilities higher because people thought some advantages and/or powers were too cheaply priced. Psionics is a perfect example where the cost of old abilities under 3e rules became more costly under 4e rules. My experience with 4e has been such that if all players get the same number of build points, those who take "mundanes" have a lot of points left over to pay for wealth, status, disease resistance, luck, etc because Psi abilities are so much higher. It's sort of a catch 22 situation if you want magic, psionics, etc in the same campaign.


My advice would be to try GURPS CLASSIC PSIONICS and see if it meets your needs. If it does, great. If it doesn't, then it's back to the drawing board, assuming you don't like the 4e version. Frankly? Some things or powers are, in my players minds, too expensive for what they do, that my players won't buy them.

An interesting experiment would be to build a 100 point character in 3e, and price that character under 4e and see how close the 4e version is to 150 points. Both 100 and 150 are suggested base costs for character design for 3e and 4e respectively. Might be interesting to see it side by side.

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

The problem with 3e Psionics is that was most apparent at higher point levels, I ran a Supers game once and the psi easily outclassed all the other characters.

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

I'm curious. What were the point levels being used in your campaign at the time?

I learned early on as part of my "style" - that it is often best to keep a tight rein on the points being granted to players in game play, and to use the time use rules for learning new things etc.

I also made it a point to say that points could not be spent on things not done in game play (Oddly enough, because a player saved up 40 points unspent, and suddenly spent those 40 points on increasing his Psionic abilities in a Harn World campaign - so I agree with you there on the high end psionics being really world shaking!)

The thing that maybe would have saved 3e Psionics, is if the designers of the rules had priced those higher abilities on a scale much like they did with attributes. The lower functionality powers relatively cheap, the higher functionality commensurately higher - instead of a linear cost across the board?

That's old history to be sure, but just my musing "scaled costs instead of linear" might give the original poster a clue on how to resolve those issues if he uses the 3e set instead of the 4e set in his campaign.

I could write more, but that's potentially off topic. ;)

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

I think it was a 500 point campaign, as I think was the recommended starting points in GURPS Supers.

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

For the original poster in case he decides to maybe use Classic Psionics...


What would you recommend as a point cap for points spent on Psionics using the older rules? Or - perhaps, with a short list, list those things that are potentially abusive past a given level of power for a given psionic ability. That's assuming you want to take the time in case it is time consuming.

What might make for a good thread is to explore the topic of the older rules, and listing what is or is not potentially an issue at a given power level.

Just a thought.

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

Probably a hundred or so at most. But honestly, I'd consider using the 4e rules and just giving enough points. Look at GURPS Psis for effective templates and power packages in modest point budgets. Everything was, basically. A telepath built on Supers points could control small armies of people. A telekinetic could out lift (and out-armor) any brick. All powers basically had geometric or logarithmic progressions compared to the linear abilities of other supers.

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

As of Psionics 1e TK lift progression was linear from level 15 on with another 250 lbs per level. This may not have made it into Basic 3e until the Revised version but we're still talking the early 90s.

Re: Alternative Psionics
 

Well whatever it was the psi was out lifting the brick on less points.