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-   -   [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C. (https://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=151157)

Rasna 08-01-2017 08:39 AM

[Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
I've tried to reconstruct some loadouts based only on strictly historical evidence. I think there are some grammatical errors. Unfortunately, my English is far from perfection.

Main Sources:
- Archaeological Museum of Florence
- G. Camporeale, “Etruscans: History and Civilization”
- M. Martinelli, “The spear, the sword, the horse. The phenomenon of war in Etruria and Central Italy between Bronze Age and Iron Age”
- S. Menchelli, F. Magno, G. Piero Orsingher, “Etruscan Warriors”

Etruscans adopted the hoplite phalanx from Greeks around early 7th century B.C., a period which also saw the rise of urban centres in Etruria. The model of citizen phalanx became prevalent over the model of aristocratic war bands without replacing it completely (as an example, in the disastrous defeat of Roman gens Fabia by the hands of the Etruscan city of Veii, occurred in 477 B.C.). According to prescriptions of Libri Rituales, soldiers were divided into classes based on census: 1st class soldiers (Status 1-2) fought as hoplites in full panoply; 2nd class soldiers (Status 0) and 3rd class soldiers (Status -1) were less armored hoplites: they had no bronze cuirass (replaced by a smaller pectoral, a quilted linen or layered leather corselets or - for some soldiers of the 3rd class - not replaced at all), they may had no bronze greaves and they were often equipped with rectangular shields greater than the Argive. The 4th class included a wide variety of troops: archers, axemen (men in full hoplitic armour armed with two-handed axes, employed for breaking the spears of enemy phalanxes but lately discarded in the Classical Era), light cavalry, skirmishers, slingers and mercenaries. Most of the latter were engaged from Italic populations, but some of them were Greeks, Gauls, Sardinians and possibly Illyrians. Heavy cavalrymen didn't actually fought on horseback: they were mounted infantry and they often constituted the commander's bodyguards.

Armour
Broadly speaking, Etruscan Hoplites were armed in a similar manner of their Greek counterparts: a long spear with butt spike (dory), a shortsword (both straight and recurved types were in use), the Argive shield (aspis), a variety of bronze helmets (both open and closed, often crested), cuirass (bronze plate – thorax, bronze or iron scale, quilted linen – linothorax and layered leather spolas), a kilt of overlapping quilted linen stripes (pteruges) and bronze greaves (knèmides). Despite strong Greek influence, there were some differences in clothing and weaponry. Etruscan chitôn, made of wool or linen, usually covered the shoulders, and local leather shoes were usually preferred over Greek-style sandals. Iron or bronze scale cuirasses seemed to be more common in Etruria than in Greece (as shown in the bronze statue of Mars of Todi and several other statues and paintings). Rarely, pteruges could be replaced by a sort of mail skirt made of butted rings, attached to the bottom of the bronze cuirass or a wide bronze belt – which is probably the most ancient kind of mail armour having archaeological evidence. Two 5th century terracotta statues of Falerii represent warriors in full panoply, featuring a linothorax with shoulder guards and bronze thigh guards that wrap around the upper thighs (the latter probably considered obsolete in coeval Greece).

Helmets
Several types of helmets were in use: “Attic” and “Calcidian” (treat both as Pot Helm + Nape Guard + Cheek Guards; ears are left unprotected, and sometimes “Attic” helmets had no cheek guards), several variations of “Corinthian” (treat full enclosed models as Full Helm; treat more open models, some of them astonishing similar to the late medieval “Barbuta”, as Bascinet + Cheek Guards, sometimes with a Nasal), “Etruscan-Corinthian” (shaped like the “Corinthian” helmet but worn like a skullcap; treat as Pot Helm, with the possible addition of the Nape Guard), “Negau” (treat as Pot Helm + Brim) and, from 4th century B.C., the Gaulish “Montefortino” (treat as Pot Helm + Cheek Guards; sometimes it had a brim, and cheek guards may be non-metallic). Simple bronze skullcaps were also in use both before and after the introduction of the phalanx. Villanovan pot helms had very high bronze crests and were often decorated with geometrical motives, while another ancient form of helmet consisted in a base made of wicker reinforced with bronze phaleras.

Shields
As for the Greeks, the Argive shield (aspis) was the shield of choice for hoplites (see Argive Shield, Low-Tech, p. 115). Treat rectangular shields used by 2nd and 3rd class infantry as Heavy Large Shield (Low-Tech, p. 114) with the Shield (Buckler) specialty. More ancient shields and shields used by light cavalry should qualify as Medium Homeric Buckler (Low-Tech, p. 115), while other shields used by Italic and Gaulish mercenaries should qualify as Light or Heavy Medium Shield (Low-Tech, p. 114) with the Shield (Buckler) specialty.

Aspis: DB 2, $ 120, 15 lbs, DR 4, HP 20, Cover DR 9, +1 DB when used in a shield wall.
Large Infantry Shield: DB 3, $ 90, 20 lbs, DR 4, HP 22, Cover DR 9.
Villanovan Shield: DB 2, $ 100, 16 lbs, DR 4, HP 21, Cover DR 9.
Medium Infantry Shield, Light: DB 2, $ 45, 7 lbs, DR 2, HP 16, Cover DR 6.
Medium Infantry Shield, Heavy: DB 2, $ 60, 14 lbs, DR 4, HP 20, Cover DR 9.

Weapons
Spears, shortswords and knives made of bronze or iron were the weapons of choice for the majority of soldiers, especially for 1st, 2nd and 3rd classes. Usually, spears used by hoplites were similar to Greek Dory, including a butt spike at the end (treat them as Long Spear with Butt Spike), but shorter spears were used as well, especially from skirmishers and light cavalry (treat them as Spear, some of them also having Butt Spike, or as Javelin). Some spears had impressive bronze long spikes more than 70 cm long, like the one exposed in the Archeological Museum of Florence (treat them as Spear with Long Spike). The Pilum, which was lately adopted by Romans for centuries, was already in use in 5th century Etruria, as shown by several grave findings.
Shortswords were straight thrusting swords (treat them as Long Knife or Shortsword), recurved chopping swords with concave blades (treat them as Kukri, Small Falchion or Falchion) or short heavy sabres (treat them as Shortsword with the Falchion modify). Some chopping swords were of broadsword size (treat them as Large Falchion). Gaulish mercenaries used straight broadswords, often with no proper point (treat them as Broadsword, more rarely as Thrusting Broadsword). Weapons assimilable to Dagger, Small Knife and Large Knife were ubiquitous.
Axes were also in use. Axemen of 4th class were armed with two-handed axes (treat them as Axe; Long Axe is also possible, but it's unlikely), and smaller axes were in use both as weapons and as utensils (treat them as Hatchet or Small Axe). Double-bitted axes were brought by commanders as symbol of authority but it's unlikely they were actually used in combat (treat them as Small Axe with an adjunctive Axe Head). Stone-head maces and wooden clubs weren't weapons of choice for the vast majority of fighters during the Italian Iron Age, with the possible exception of Sardinians.
Javelins and slings were the main ranged weapons during this period. Most bows used in warfare were self-bows of short or average size (treat them as Short Bow or Regular Bow). Longbows were known in Europe since the Neolithic, but they don't seem to be in use in the Mediterranean area, or at least their use was very infrequent. Some bows imported from Egypt and the Levant might qualify as Straight Composite Bow or as Reflex Bow.

AXE/MACE (Low-Tech, p. 65)
* Axe
* Hatchet
* Small Axe
* Small Axe + Axe Head (Rare/Ceremonial) (see Axe Head, Low-Tech, Companion 2: Weapons and Warriors pp. 13-14)
* Small Round Mace

BROADSWORD (Low-Tech, pp. 65-66)
* Large Falchion

KNIFE (Low-Tech, p. 67)
* Dagger
* Kukri
* Large Knife
* Long Knife
* Short Baton
* Small Knife

SHORTSWORD (Low-Tech, p. 69)
* Baton
* Falchion
* Shortsword
* Shortsword + Falchion modify (see Falchion, Low-Tech, Companion 2: Weapons and Warriors p. 12)
* Small Falchion

SPEAR (Low-Tech, p. 69)
* Javelin
* Long Spear
* Long Spear + Butt Spike (see Butt Spike – Small Spear Point, Low-Tech, Companion 2: Weapons and Warriors p. 14)
* Pilum (see Pilum, Low-Tech, p. 73)
* Spear
* Spear + Butt Spike (see Butt Spike – Small Spear Point, Low-Tech, Companion 2: Weapons and Warriors p. 14)
* Spear + Long Spike (see Spearhead – Long Spike, Low-Tech, Companion 2: Weapons and Warriors p. 15)
* Spear + Butt Spike + Long Spike (see Butt Spike – Small Spear Point and Spearhead – Long Spike, Low-Tech, Companion 2: Weapons and Warriors pp. 14-15)

TWO-HANDED AXE/MACE (Low-Tech, p. 70)
* Axe

BOW (Low-Tech, p. 76)
* Regular Bow
* Short Bow

SLING (Low-Tech, p. 76)
* Heavy Sling
* Sling

OTHER POSSIBLE WEAPONS
* Axe + Axe Head (Rare/Ceremonial) (see Axe Head, Low-Tech, Companion 2: Weapons and Warriors pp. 13-14)
* Broadsword (Gaulish)
* Great Axe (Rare/Ceremonial)
* Heavy Spear
* Heavy Spear + Butt Spike (see Butt Spike – Small Spear Point, Low-Tech, Companion 2: Weapons and Warriors p. 14)
* Knobbed Club
* Long Axe (Rare)
* Long Axe + Axe Head (Rare/Ceremonial) (see Axe Head, Low-Tech, Companion 2: Weapons and Warriors pp. 13-14)
* Longbow (Germanic)
* Pike (Macedonian)
* Reflex Bow (Eastern)
* Round Mace
* Short Spear
* Sickle
* Straight Composite Bow (Eastern)
* Thrusting Broadsword (Gaulish)

Rasna 08-01-2017 08:40 AM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
LOADOUTS

NOTES
Ethnic Names: All the ethnic names are Greeks, not Etruscans, because not very much Etruscan words are known and only very few of them do refer to military lexicon (Cilth = Fortress, Husrna/Huzrna = Army, Macstrevc = Military Command, Zat- = Axe, Zatlath = Bodyguard).
Nape Guard: Some helmets have a protection for the nape that doesn't include the ears. A Nape Guard protects the back of the head (the back of area 5) but not the ears. Cost and weight are 20% of base Pot Helm (4% of torso armor).
Scale Armor: In GURPS Low-Tech, Medium Scale Armor weights as much as Heavy Layered Cloth and it had the same DR 4, with an additional -1 DR vs. crushing. In order to correct these bad stats, in my HRs:
- Light Scale Armor: DR 3 (2 vs. crushing), 16 lbs, $ 400 [LT: $ 320].
- Medium Scale Armor: DR 4 (3 vs. crushing), 24 lbs [LT: 28 lbs], $ 600 [LT: $ 550].
- Heavy Scale Armor: DR 5 (4 vs. crushing) [LT: DR 5], 32 lbs [LT: 40 lbs], $ 800 [LT: $1,100].
Both Low-Tech and House Rules stats are reported when necessary (anyway, only in one of four loadouts below).

Etruscan 2nd Class Hoplite, 5th to 3rd century (reconstructed from 5th century archeological findings)

ARMOUR AND CLOTHING

*) Tunic – Chitôn.
Type: Ordinary Clothing (Status 0) || Locations: Torso, shoulders (110%) || DR 0 || Holdout 0 || Don 17 || Weight: 1.76 lbs || Cost: $52.8

*) Shoes – Armula.
Type: Shoes || Locations: Feet (20%) || DR 1* (0* vs. impaling) || Holdout -3 || Don 10 || Weight: 2 lbs || Cost: $40 || Notes: The soles, being thicker, give DR 2 vs. all attacks.

*) Greaves – Knèmides.
Type: Plate, Light (Bronze) || Locations: Knees, shins (55%) || DR 3 || Holdout -3 || Don 24 || Weight: 4.4 lbs || Cost: $2,200 || Notes: Protects the legs on a roll of 1-4 on 1d.

*) Helmet (Negau) [Pot Helm + Brim].
Type: Plate, Light (Bronze, One-Piece Helmet) || Locations: Skull, eyes (23%) || DR 3 || Holdout -4 || Don 11 || Weight: 1.38 lbs || Cost: $2,990 || Notes: Protects the face a roll of 6 on 1d. If the threat originates from above, the brim protects the face on a roll of 2-6 on 1d.
- Helmet Padding (skull only): DR 1* || + 1.2 lbs || + $10
- Total: DR 4 (skull), DR 3 (face, 6 to 2-6 on 1d) || Don 11 || 2.58 lbs || $3,000

*) Pectoral – Cardiophylax.
Type: Plate, DR 4 (Bronze) || Locations: Upper chest (front, partial) (10%) || DR 4 || Holdout -4 || Don 5 || Weight: 1.2 lbs || Cost: $600 || Notes: Protects the upper chest (front, including vitals) on a roll of 1-3 on 1d. An attack to the upper chest aimed at avoiding it takes -3; one targeting chinks in armor on the vitals takes -9.

TOTAL (ARMOUR AND CLOTHING): Don 67 || 11.94 lbs || $5,892.8

WEAPONS

*) Large Shield, Heavy: DB 3, $90, 20 lbs, Don 1, DR 4, HP 22, Cover DR 9.

*) Long Knife: $120, 1.5 lbs, Don 1.

*) Pilum: $40, 4 lbs, Don 1.

*) Shortsword: $400, 2 lbs, Don 1.

TOTAL (WEAPONS): Don 4 || 27.5 lbs || $650

TOTAL (WEAPONS, ARMOUR AND CLOTHING): Don 71 || 39.44 lbs || $6,542.8

-

Etruscan 1st Class Hoplite, 6th to 4th century (based on Terracotta Warriors from Temple of Fallen Stones, Falerii)

ARMOUR AND CLOTHING

*) Tunic – Chitôn.
Type: Ordinary Clothing (Status 1) || Locations: Torso, shoulders (110%) || DR 0 || Holdout 0 || Don 17 || Weight: 1.76 lbs || Cost: $105.6

*) Shoes – Armula.
Type: Shoes || Locations: Feet (20%) || DR 1* (0* vs. impaling) || Holdout -3 || Don 10 || Weight: 2 lbs || Cost: $40 || Notes: The soles, being thicker, give DR 2 vs. all attacks.

*) Corselet – Linothorax.
Type: Layered Cloth, Medium || Locations: Chest, shoulders (85%) || DR 3 || Holdout -2 || Don 26 || Weight: 17 lbs || Cost: $297.5 || Notes: Protects the arms on a roll of 6 on 1d.

*) Greaves – Knèmides.
Type: Plate, Light (Bronze) || Locations: Knees, shins (55%) || DR 3 || Holdout -3 || Don 24 || Weight: 4.4 lbs || Cost: $2,200 || Notes: Protects the legs on a roll of 1-4 on 1d.

*) Helmet (Calcidian) – Pilos [Pot Helm + Cheek Guards + Nape Guard + Crest].
Type: Plate, Light (Bronze, One-Piece Helmet) || Locations: Skull, head (back), cheeks (26%) || DR 3 || Holdout -8 || Don 12 || Weight: 2.56 lbs || Cost: $3,400 || Notes: Protects the face a roll of 4-5 on 1d. Crest gives +1 SM for Intimidation.
- Helmet Padding: DR 1* || + 1.56 lbs || + $13
- Total: DR 4 || Don 12 || 4.12 lbs || $3,413

*) Kilt – Pteruges.
Type: Layered Cloth, Light || Locations: Abdomen (25%) || DR 2* || Holdout 0 || Don 5 || Weight: 3 lbs || Cost: $37.5

*) Thigh Guards – Paramèridion.
Type: Plate, Light (Bronze) || Locations: Upper thighs (25%) || DR 3 || Holdout -3 || Don 12 || Weight: 2 lbs || Cost: $1,000 || Notes: Protects the legs on a roll of 6 on 1d. Inside thigh is exposed when on foot (see Loadouts: Low-Tech Armor, Armor Gap – Inside Thigh, p. 4).

TOTAL (ARMOUR AND CLOTHING): Don 106 || 34.28 lbs || $7,093.6

WEAPONS

*) Argive Shield: DB 2, $120, 15 lbs, Don 2, DR 4, HP 20, Cover DR 9, +1 DB when used in a shield wall.

*) Long Knife: $120, 1.5 lbs, Don 1.

*) Long Spear + Butt Spike: $80, 5 lbs, Don 1.

*) Small Falchion: $200, 2 lbs, Don 1.

TOTAL (WEAPONS): Don 5 || 23.5 lbs || $520

TOTAL (WEAPONS, ARMOUR AND CLOTHING): Don 111 || 57.78 lbs || $7,613.6

ericthered 08-01-2017 08:48 AM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Are you sure the shin guards and helmet are $2000 each? that sounds a little excessive. especially given that the breastplate is $600.

Rasna 08-01-2017 08:50 AM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Etruscan 1st Class Hoplite, 6th to 4th century (based on Bronze Statue of Mars of Todi, Volsinii)

ARMOUR AND CLOTHING

*) Tunic – Chitôn.
Type: Ordinary Clothing (Status 2) || Locations: Torso, shoulders (110%) || DR 0 || Holdout 0 || Don 17 || Weight: 1.76 lbs || Cost: $264

*) Shoes – Armula.
Type: Shoes || Locations: Feet (20%) || DR 1* (0* vs. impaling) || Holdout -3 || Don 10 || Weight: 2 lbs || Cost: $40 || Notes: The soles, being thicker, give DR 2 vs. all attacks.

*) Corselet – Pholidôtós.
Type: Scale, Medium (Bronze) || Locations: Chest, upper abdomen (87.5%) || DR 4 (3 vs. crushing) || Holdout -4 || Don 27 || Weight: 24.5 lbs (GURPS Low-Tech) / 21 lbs (House Rules) || Cost: $1,925 (GURPS Low-Tech) / $2,100 (House Rules) || Notes: Protects the abdomen on a roll of 1-3 on 1d.

*) Greaves – Knèmides.
Type: Plate, Light (Bronze) || Locations: Knees, shins (55%) || DR 3 || Holdout -3 || Don 24 || Weight: 4.4 lbs || Cost: $2,200 || Notes: Protects the legs on a roll of 1-4 on 1d.

*) Helmet (Corinthian) – Kranos [Bascinet + Cheek Guards + Nasal + Crest].
Type: Plate, DR 4 (Bronze, One-Piece Helmet) || Locations: Skull, head (back), cheeks, ears, nose || DR 4 || Holdout -9 || Don 13 || Weight: 3.52 lbs || Cost: $5,480 || Notes: Protects the face on a roll of 2-5 on 1d. Gives Hard of Hearing (p. B138). Crest gives +1 SM for Intimidation.
- Helmet Padding: DR 1* || + 1.68 lbs || + $14
- Total: DR 5 || Don 13 || 5.2 lbs || $ 5,494

*) Kilt – Pteruges.
Type: Layered Cloth, Light || Locations: Lower abdomen, groin (12.5%) || DR 2* || Holdout 0 || Don 3 || Weight: 1.5 lbs || Cost: $18.75 || Notes: Protects the abdomen on a roll of 4-6 on 1d.

*) Thigh Guards – Paramèridion.
Type: Plate, Light (Bronze) || Locations: Upper thighs (25%) || DR 3 || Holdout -3 || Don 12 || Weight: 2 lbs || Cost: $1,000 || Notes: Protects the legs on a roll of 6 on 1d. Inside thigh is exposed when on foot (see Loadouts: Low-Tech Armor, Armor Gap – Inside Thigh, p. 4).

TOTAL (ARMOUR AND CLOTHING): Don 106 || 41.36 lbs (GURPS Low-Tech) / 37.86 lbs (House Rules) || $10,941.75 (GURPS Low-Tech) / $11,116.75 (House Rules)

WEAPONS

*) Argive Shield: DB 2, $120, 15 lbs, Don 2, DR 4, HP 20, Cover DR 9, +1 DB when used in a shield wall.

*) Long Knife: $120, 1.5 lbs, Don 1.

*) Long Spear + Butt Spike: $80, 5 lbs, Don 1.

*) Shortsword + Falchion modify: $500, 3 lbs, Don 1.

TOTAL (WEAPONS): Don 5 || 24.5 lbs || $820

TOTAL (WEAPONS, ARMOUR AND CLOTHING): Don 111 || 65.86 lbs (GURPS Low Tech) / 62.36 lbs (House Rules) || $11,761.75 (GURPS Low Tech) / $11,936.75 (House Rules)

-

Etruscan Heavy Cavalryman (Zatlath), 5th to 4th century (reconstructed from 5th century archeological findings)

ARMOUR AND CLOTHING

*) Tunic – Chitôn.
Type: Ordinary Clothing (Status 2) || Locations: Torso, shoulders (110%) || DR 0 || Holdout 0 || Don 17 || Weight: 1.76 lbs || Cost: $264

*) Cloak – Tebenna.
Type: Cloak (Purple-Dyed, +9 CF) || Locations: Torso (back), shoulders, thighs (back) (82.5%) || DR 0 || Holdout 0 || Don 20 || Weight: 2 lbs || Cost: $400

*) Short Boots – Calcei.
Type: Shoes, Medium Leather || Locations: Feet (20%) || DR 2* (1* vs. impaling) || Holdout -4 || Don 10 || Weight: 2.5 lbs || Cost: $45 || Notes: The soles, being thicker, give DR 2 vs. all attacks.

*) Cuirass – Thorax.
Type: Plate, DR 4 (Bronze) || Locations: Neck (back), chest (78%) || DR 4 || Holdout -5 || Don 36 || Weight: 9.36 lbs || Cost: $4,680

*) Girdle – Zoster.
Type: Plate, Light (Bronze) || Locations: Upper abdomen (12.5%) || DR 3 || Holdout -3 || Don 6 || Weight: 1 lbs || Cost: $500 || Notes: Protects the abdomen on a roll of 1-3 on 1d.

*) Greaves – Knèmides.
Type: Plate, Light (Bronze) || Locations: Knees, shins (55%) || DR 3 || Holdout -3 || Don 24 || Weight: 4.4 lbs || Cost: $2,200 || Notes: Protects the legs on a roll of 1-4 on 1d.

*) Helmet (Corinthian) – Kranos [Full Helm + Crest].
Type: Plate, DR 4 (Bronze, One-Piece Helmet) || Locations: Skull, face || DR 4 || Holdout -9 || Don 14 || Weight: 3.7 lbs || Cost: $ 5,870 || Notes: Gives Hard of Hearing (p. B138) and No Peripheral Vision (p. B151). Crest gives +1 SM for Intimidation.
- Helmet Padding (skull only): DR 1* || + 1.2 lbs || + $10
- Total: DR 5 on skull, DR 4 over the entire face || Don 17 || 4.9 lbs || $5,880

*) Mail Skirt – Pteruges.
Type: Mail, Light (Butted Mail) || Locations: Lower abdomen, groin (12.5%) || DR 3* (1* vs crushing and impaling) || Holdout -1 || Don 3 || Weight: 1.5 lbs || Cost: $25 || Notes: Protects the abdomen on a roll of 4-6 on 1d.

*) Thigh Guards – Paramèridion.
Type: Plate, Light (Bronze) || Locations: Upper thighs (25%) || DR 3 || Holdout -3 || Don 12 || Weight: 2 lbs || Cost: $1,000 || Notes: Protects the legs on a roll of 6 on 1d. Inside thigh is exposed when on foot (see Loadouts: Low-Tech Armor, Armor Gap – Inside Thigh, p. 4).

TOTAL (ARMOUR AND CLOTHING): Don 142 || 29.42 lbs || $14,994

WEAPONS

*) Argive Shield: DB 2, $120, 15 lbs, Don 2, DR 4, HP 20, Cover DR 9, +1 DB when used in a shield wall.

*) Large Falchion: $625, 4.5 lbs, Don 1.

*) Long Knife: $120, 1.5 lbs, Don 1.

*) Long Spear + Butt Spike: $80, 5 lbs, Don 1.

*) Ceremonial Double-Bitted Axe (Small Axe + Axe Head): $75, 4 lbs, Don 1

TOTAL (WEAPONS): Don 6 || 30 lbs || $1,020

TOTAL (WEAPONS, ARMOUR AND CLOTHING): Don 148 || 59.42 lbs || $16,014

Rasna 08-01-2017 08:51 AM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ericthered (Post 2114034)
Are you sure the shin guards and helmet are $2000 each? that sounds a little excessive. especially given that the breastplate is $600.

Yes, because of Bronze (+3 CF), and Helms are One-Piece Helmets (+9 CF).

ericthered 08-01-2017 09:28 AM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasna (Post 2114037)
Yes, because of Bronze (+3 CF), and Helms are One-Piece Helmets (+9 CF).

Wow that's expensive. Though it is bronze, so fair is fair. I wouldn't expect this to be typical armament though.

One piece helmets... that's what Raw says. Though if you're using bronze, the numbers should probably change: you can cast a bronze helmet, just not an good iron one.

Rasna 08-01-2017 09:39 AM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ericthered (Post 2114044)
Wow that's expensive. Though it is bronze, so fair is fair. I wouldn't expect this to be typical armament though.

One piece helmets... that's what Raw says. Though if you're using bronze, the numbers should probably change: you can cast a bronze helmet, just not an good iron one.

True. These prices just fit with those of GURPS Low-Tech. They can be customarily raised or lowered in order to fit with the historical reality (ex. in 1600's mail armour was by far more expensive than plate).

Anyway, Etruscan elites were incredibly rich. They had very fertile lands, rich mines of iron, copper, silver, sulphur and mercury and the near monopoly of the Mediterranean tin trade from Central Europe. They were plenty of bronze since Villanovan era (9th - 8th century B.C.).

Anders 08-01-2017 09:45 AM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasna (Post 2114046)
True. These prices just fit with those of GURPS Low-Tech. They can be customarily raised or lowered in order to fit with the historical reality (ex. in 1600's mail armour was by far more expensive than plate)

The prices in Low-Tech are not historical, they are based on utility. Otherwise no one would use mail and that's not realistic. The problem is that GURPS doesn't reflect many of the advantages of mail like being comfortable to wear and transport.

DanHoward 08-01-2017 09:48 AM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasna (Post 2114037)
Yes, because of Bronze (+3 CF), and Helms are One-Piece Helmets (+9 CF).

The rule for one piece helmets should only apply to iron, not bronze and only before TL4. One piece helmets are standard equipment at TL4.

Quote:

*) Helmet (Corinthian) – Kranos. Full Helm + Crest
LT Armor Loadouts (p. 13) lists a Greek Corinthian kranos as DR4, $3,930, 4 lbs. [2][3][4]

[2] -1 DR over the entire face.
[3] Gives Hard of Hearing (p. B138) and No Peripheral Vision (p. B151).
[4] Crest gives +1 SM for Intimidation (see Low-Tech, p. 113).

Rasna 08-01-2017 09:53 AM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DanHoward (Post 2114051)
The +9CF rule for one piece helmets only applies to iron, not bronze.

Well, in that case I have to correct a bit the loadouts.
In your work - which is the base for mine - I've noticed that the +9 CF apply to bronze helmets too.

Please, if you notice some historical errors, report them. My goal is to be more historically accurate as possible.

I've considered the "Etruscan mail skirt" as Butted Light Mail to fit it with Low-Tech rules.

The listed price of Kranos reflects +9 CF of One-Piece Construction ($ 3,900). Without it, it should be $ 1,200. Regarding the Kranos, I've seen some exemplars a little thicker than DR 3 (they're thick as the cuirasses, so they're DR 4), and I've used two of them for the last two loadouts.

DanHoward 08-01-2017 10:16 AM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
You're right about the loadouts. They use +9CF for one-piece bronze helmets.

The Etruscan skirt consisted of long chains connected by a few cross-links hanging off the bottom of a cuirass. It isn't really mail because it doesn't form an interconnected mesh but Butted Light Mail seems a decent approximation for the type of protection it would afford. IMO it was an attempt to create pteryges out of metal.

Rasna 08-01-2017 10:20 AM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DanHoward (Post 2114057)
The skirt consisted of long chains connected by a few cross-links hanging off the bottom of a cuirass. It isn't really mail because it doesn't form an interconnected mesh. IMO it was an attempt to create ptyruges out of metal.

I know, I read your intervention some time ago. I've considered this as "Butted Light Mail" in GURPS terms because I don't know how to handle it. Surely it must have some protective value. Probably performs better than layered linen pteruges against cutting attacks, but it may be less protective than linen pteruges against crushing and impaling attacks.

DanHoward 08-01-2017 10:26 AM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Butted Light Mail seems a decent approximation.

Rasna 08-01-2017 10:38 AM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Thanks. I'm glad that my work appears to be decent!

I've also read about bronze shoulder guards and pteruges as shoulder guards, but I haven't found material evidence for the period, so I haven't included them in loadouts. I've seen a bas-relief from an Hellenistic period Etruscan grave which shows an Etruscan light cavalryman equipped with linothorax and short shoulder pteruges, but 1) IDK if they're ornamental like some Roman ones or actual armor 2) It may be an idealization rather than a genuine portrait.

Rasna 08-01-2017 11:32 AM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
PS: It's possible that the "mail skirt" was worn with a sort of padding or together with lighter linen pteruges? The absence of any form of padding would rend them not very desirable over quilted linen ones.

safisher 08-01-2017 01:33 PM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anders (Post 2114049)
The problem is that GURPS doesn't reflect many of the advantages of mail like being comfortable to wear and transport.

I'm not sure what else can be done to make it more desirable from a comfort standpoint. From an economic standpoint, mail was also easy to repair, and easy to re-fit to someone else. Repair work can be done with minimal tools, and that's important. A few extra links is all that's needed in way of supplies. For a warband, this is a highly desirable situation -- in fact, I'd treat this sort of repair as Soldier +4, meaning the band does not need smithy, wagon, etc. to repair battle damage. In any event, from the standpoint of desirability, rpgs and real life often never correlate precisely. GURPS, and Dan's work, gets close enough.

Rasna 08-01-2017 04:45 PM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by safisher (Post 2114087)
I'm not sure what else can be done to make it more desirable from a comfort standpoint. From an economic standpoint, mail was also easy to repair, and easy to re-fit to someone else. Repair work can be done with minimal tools, and that's important. A few extra links is all that's needed in way of supplies. For a warband, this is a highly desirable situation -- in fact, I'd treat this sort of repair as Soldier +4, meaning the band does not need smithy, wagon, etc. to repair battle damage. In any event, from the standpoint of desirability, rpgs and real life often never correlate precisely. GURPS, and Dan's work, gets close enough.

The problem is more pronounced in fantasy campaigns. In historical ones, from mid TL2 to very early european TL4, mail is prevalent among anyone can afford it, and regardless of price, is the best Low-Tech flexible armour and can be layered with other rigid armors. Effectively, in semi-historical, fanta-historical and fantasy settings, the other non-combat advantages (easiness of maintenance and reparation and the fact that rings allow the heat to escape) should be actively implemented.

DanHoward 08-01-2017 05:12 PM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Heat and climate have never really been a problem for any kind of armour. We know that some of the heaviest and most stifling armours ever invented were worn on summer campaigns in the Middle East. I've worn them in Australian summers with no more discomfort than heavy clothing. The main problem with heat comes from enclosed helmets.

DanHoward 08-01-2017 05:19 PM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasna (Post 2114075)
PS: It's possible that the "mail skirt" was worn with a sort of padding or together with lighter linen pteruges? The absence of any form of padding would rend them not very desirable over quilted linen ones.

I think it was an experiment that never went anywhere. The development of mail makes this redundant.

Rasna 08-01-2017 05:34 PM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DanHoward (Post 2114155)
Heat and climate have never really been a problem for any kind of armour. We know that some of the heaviest and most stifling armours ever invented were worn on summer campaigns in the Middle East. I've worn them in Australian summers with no more discomfort than heavy clothing. The main problem with heat comes from enclosed helmets.

I know. But, in your experience, aren't shape and material of armour at least a bit influent over both heat and cold tolerance?

DanHoward 08-01-2017 05:40 PM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasna (Post 2114160)
I know. But, in your experience, aren't shape and material of armour at least a bit influent over both heat and cold tolerance?

Not enough to have any influence over a soldier's choice of armour.

Rasna 08-01-2017 05:48 PM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
My personal experience is limited almost exclusively to mail hauberks and thick aketons. Naturally, if I was a TL3 soldier and I had to choose between the two, I'd always pick the hauberk, regardless the weather. Out of real battle necessity, I prefer the mail hauberk for almost all the year and aketon in cold winter days. But this is going off-topic.

I think I'll publish other loadouts soon. Thank you very much for your suggestions, Dan!

DanHoward 08-01-2017 06:08 PM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Always good to see more historical loadouts - especially if they lead to more sales of my book :)

Don't expect me to comment too much on them though. Researching, writing, and the subsequent playtest of that book burnt me out so badly that my eyes glaze over whenenver I see a loadout these days. I have a lot of sympathy for David Pulver and his VDS project.

RyanW 08-01-2017 07:15 PM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DanHoward (Post 2114155)
Heat and climate have never really been a problem for any kind of armour. We know that some of the heaviest and most stifling armours ever invented were worn on summer campaigns in the Middle East. I've worn them in Australian summers with no more discomfort than heavy clothing. The main problem with heat comes from enclosed helmets.

Weren't there quite a few casualties at the Battle of Towton due to heat exhaustion, despite it taking place during a snowstorm?

DanHoward 08-01-2017 09:31 PM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RyanW (Post 2114188)
Weren't there quite a few casualties at the Battle of Towton due to heat exhaustion, despite it taking place during a snowstorm?

Yep. It is a good example to support the argument that climate is largely irrelevant. If you wear enclosed helmets for a prolonged battle then there will be heat issues no matter what the weather is like.

Rasna 08-03-2017 07:32 AM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Samnite Warrior, 5th to 3rd century (reconstructed from 4th century archeological findings)

ARMOUR AND CLOTHING

*) Tunic – Chitôn.
Type: Ordinary Clothing (Status 1) || Locations: Torso, shoulders (110%) || DR 0 || Holdout 0 || Don 17 || Weight: 1.76 lbs || Cost: $105.6

*) Sandals – Sandalon.
Type: Sandals || Locations: Feet (bottom) (10%) || DR 1* || Holdout -2 || Don 10 || Weight: 0.5 lbs || Cost: $25

*) Greaves – Knèmides.
Type: Plate, Light (Bronze) || Locations: Knees, shins (55%) || DR 3 || Holdout -3 || Don 24 || Weight: 4.4 lbs || Cost: $2,200 || Notes: Protects the legs on a roll of 1-4 on 1d.

*) Helmet (Horned Samnite) [Pot Helm + Brim + “Crest” (= Metal Horns)].
Type: Plate, Light (Bronze, One-Piece Helmet) || Locations: Skull, eyes (23%) || DR 3 || Holdout -8 || Don 11 || Weight: 2.13 lbs || Cost: $3,250 || Notes: Protects the face a roll of 6 on 1d. If the threat originates from above, the brim protects the face on a roll of 2-6 on 1d. Crest gives +1 SM for Intimidation. +12 CF for both Bronze and One-Piece Helmet and -25% weight for One-Piece Helmet also apply to the “Crest” (0.75 lbs, $ 260, already counted on stats).
- Helmet Padding (skull only): DR 1* || + 1.2 lbs || + $ 10
- Total: DR 4 (skull), DR 3 (face, 6 to 2-6 on 1d) || Don 11 || 3.33 lbs || $3,260

*) Pectoral (Breastplate) – Cardiophylax.
Type: Plate, DR 4 (Bronze) || Locations: Upper chest (front, partial) (13%) || DR 4 || Holdout -4 || Don 6 || Weight: 1.56 lbs || Cost: $780 || Notes: Protects the upper chest (front, including vitals) on a roll of 1-4 on 1d. An attack to the upper chest aimed at avoiding it takes -3; one targeting chinks in armor on the vitals takes -9.

*) Pectoral (Backplate) – Pneumophylax (?).
Type: Plate, DR 4 (Bronze) || Locations: Upper chest (back, partial) (13%) || DR 4 || Holdout -4 || Don 6 || Weight: 1.56 lbs || Cost: $780 || Notes: Protects the upper chest (back, including vitals) on a roll of 1-4 on 1d. An attack to the upper chest aimed at avoiding it takes -3; one targeting chinks in armor on the vitals takes -9.

TOTAL (ARMOUR AND CLOTHING): Don 74 || 13.11 lbs || $7,150.6

WEAPONS

*) Roman Scutum, Large: DB 3, $200, 20 lbs, Don 1, DR 4, HP 27, Cover DR 10.

*) Long Knife: $120, 1.5 lbs, Don 1.

*) Shortsword: $400, 2 lbs, Don 1.

*) Spear: $40, 4 lbs, Don 1.

TOTAL (WEAPONS): Don 4 || 29.5 lbs || $760

TOTAL (WEAPONS, ARMOUR AND CLOTHING): Don 78 || 42.61 lbs || $7,910.6


Based on https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...745a44ce11.jpg

-

I have also found an Etruscan cuirass with a guard for the back of the neck, Greek anatomical bronze feet guards and a Samnite neck guard.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...3d39fb9823.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...505d506a81.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...8633e88c81.jpg

Bronze feet guards look very thin. In GURPS terms they may be DR 2.

Anders 08-03-2017 03:05 PM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Would such a helmet be practical on the battlefield? IIRC, horns on helmets are a very bad idea for several reasons. Maybe it's a ceremonial helmet.

sir_pudding 08-03-2017 03:16 PM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anders (Post 2114686)
Would such a helmet be practical on the battlefield? IIRC, horns on helmets are a very bad idea for several reasons. Maybe it's a ceremonial helmet.

Yeah, the horns-on-helmets thing is probably overstated because of pushback against bad Norse. Lots of warriors in lots of cultures definitely went into actual fights of various significance with decorated helmets. Bronze-age Mediterranean dudes appear to be some of them.

DanHoward 08-03-2017 05:13 PM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anders (Post 2114686)
Would such a helmet be practical on the battlefield? IIRC, horns on helmets are a very bad idea for several reasons. Maybe it's a ceremonial helmet.

The word "ceremonial" is a term that archaeologists use when they can't work out the function of an item. A far as I can tell there was no such thing as ceremonial armour or helmets until the late Renaissance. Horned helmets were definitely worn in battle. Most people have seen the ones that the Japanese wore but plenty of other cultures from the Bronze Age onwards used them. Their practicality is questionable but fashion plays just as much a role in armour design as function. There is a passage in the Iliad where Menelaus raises his sword to strike Paris and his blade clips one of the horns on his helmet and breaks.

DanHoward 08-03-2017 05:21 PM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasna (Post 2114560)
Bronze feet guards look very thin. In GURPS terms they may be DR 2.

All metal armour was lined with some kind of padding or was worn over a separate padded garment. The padding wouldn't be enough to provide DR 1 by itself but combined with these thin plates the result is probably DR 3.

Rasna 08-03-2017 06:56 PM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DanHoward (Post 2114747)
All metal armour was lined with some kind of padding or was worn over a separate padded garment. The padding wouldn't be enough to provide DR 1 by itself but combined with these thin plates the result is probably DR 3.

Yep, I mean DR 2 WITH padding, because, on eye, they appear to be thinner than greaves (which are DR 3 with incorporate padding). But of course DR 3 is also acceptable in order to don't make the things too complicate in GURPS context.

RyanW 08-03-2017 11:26 PM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DanHoward (Post 2114743)
Horned helmets were definitely worn in battle.

A lot of examples I see from a few brief searches have horns or wings as small decorative flourishes. Think Jay Garrick rather than the stereotypical Brünnhilde helmet.

Wouldn't be surprised if the conception of larger horns on such helmets owes much to them being recreated in art, theater, and gladiatorial matches or knightly tournaments with deliberate exaggeration for identification and appeal purpose, much like modern movies representing similar periods underrepresent the use of helmets and especially facial protection (no sense spending millions of dollars on an actor only to make him largely unrecognizable).

DanHoward 08-04-2017 03:30 AM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Here are a few examples from various cultures that were worn in battle

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...or-persian.jpg
http://www.hixenbaugh.net/images/gal...rg/6327a-l.jpg
http://www.hurstwic.org/history/arti...lmet_vikso.jpg
http://exquisiteafricanart.com/wp-co...bys-1969-2.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rloohelmet.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...ient-greek.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...6f071abf3e.jpg

They are all pretty substantial. A couple of large helmet horns were found in a Mycenaean grave shaft that were made from lead.

Þorkell 08-04-2017 12:45 PM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DanHoward (Post 2114889)
Here are a few examples from various cultures that were worn in battle

How is it known that they were worn in battle rather than being some sort of ceremonial helmet?

Rasna 08-04-2017 04:41 PM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
I understand why there are some math errors in your book, Dan. They come even in my loadouts and I had to correct some of them. It's very easy to have an oversight with these cumbersome calculations.

Samnite Warlord, 5th to 3rd century (reconstructed from 4th century sources)

ARMOUR AND CLOTHING

*) Tunic – Chitôn.
Type: Ordinary Clothing (Status 2) || Locations: Torso, shoulders (110%) || DR 0 || Holdout 0 || Don 17 || Weight: 1.76 lbs || Cost: $264

*) Sandals – Sandalon.
Type: Sandals || Locations: Feet (bottom) (10%) || DR 1* || Holdout -2 || Don 10 || Weight: 0.5 lbs || Cost: $25

*) Breastplate – Cardiophylax.
Type: Plate, DR 4 (Bronze) || Locations: Chest (front, partial) (32%) || DR 4 || Holdout -4 || Don 15 || Weight: 3.84 lbs || Cost: $1,920 || Notes: Protects the chest (front, including vitals) on a roll of 1-5 on 1d. An attack to the chest aimed at avoiding it takes -3; one targeting chinks in armor on the vitals takes -10.

*) Backplate – Pneumophylax (?).
Type: Plate, DR 4 (Bronze) || Locations: Chest (back, partial) (32%) || DR 4 || Holdout -4 || Don 15 || Weight: 3.84 lbs || Cost: $1,920 || Notes: Protects the chest (back, including vitals) on a roll of 1-5 on 1d. An attack to the chest aimed at avoiding it takes -3; one targeting chinks in armor on the vitals takes -10.

*) Girdle – Zoster.
Type: Plate, Light (Bronze) || Locations: Upper abdomen (12.5%) || DR 3 || Holdout -3 || Don 6 || Weight: 1 lbs || Cost: $500 || Notes: Protects the abdomen on a roll of 1-3 on 1d.

*) Greaves – Knèmides.
Type: Plate, Light (Bronze) || Locations: Knees, shins (55%) || DR 3 || Holdout -3 || Don 24 || Weight: 4.4 lbs || Cost: $2,200 || Notes: Protects the legs on a roll of 1-4 on 1d.

*) Helmet (Horned Attic) – Pilos [Pot Helm + Cheek Guards + Nape Guard + “Crest” (= Metal Horns)].
Type: Plate, DR 4 (Bronze, One-Piece Helmet) || Locations: Skull, head (back), cheeks (26%) || DR 4 || Holdout -9 || Don 12 || Weight: 3.09 lbs || Cost: $5,330 || Notes: Protects the face a roll of 4-5 on 1d. Crest gives +1 SM for Intimidation. +12 CF for both Bronze and One-Piece Helmet and -25% weight for One-Piece Helmet also apply to the “Crest” (0.75 lbs, $ 260, already counted on stats).
- Helmet Padding: DR 1* || + 1.56 lbs || + $13
- Total: DR 5 || Don 12 || 4.65 lbs || $5,343

*) Neck Guard ["Primitive" Gorget].
Type: Plate, DR 4 (Bronze) || Locations: Neck (5%) || DR 4 || Holdout -5 || Don 3 || Weight: 0.6 lbs || Cost: $300 || Notes: -1 to combat rolls. +2 to target chinks in armor.

TOTAL (ARMOUR AND CLOTHING): Don 102 || 20.59 lbs || $12,472

WEAPONS

*) Roman Scutum, Large: DB 3, $200, 20 lbs, Don 1, DR 4, HP 27, Cover DR 10.

*) Long Knife: $120, 1.5 lbs, Don 1.

*) Shortsword: $400, 2 lbs, Don 1.

*) Spear: $40, 4 lbs, Don 1.

TOTAL (WEAPONS): Don 4 || 29.5 lbs || $760

TOTAL (WEAPONS, ARMOUR AND CLOTHING): Don 106 || 50.09 lbs || $13,232

Based on:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...8633e88c81.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...3341e0f6f0.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...entury_BCE.jpg

I don't know if this primitive kind of gorget would impede a little the head movements (giving -1 to combat rolls like the Bevor).
Strangely, archaeological findings and artistic depictions of neck guards are very rare in Europe for the Iron Age (TL2).

DanHoward 08-04-2017 05:11 PM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Þorkell (Post 2114977)
How is it known that they were worn in battle rather than being some sort of ceremonial helmet?

To prove a historical fact we need evidence that generally comes from one of three sources: archaeological, iconographical, or textual. In this case we have all three

1) Some physical examples have damage that is consistent with being hit with a weapon.
2) We have illustrations depicting horned helmets being worn in battle.
3) We have texts describing horned helmets being worn in battle.

Rasna 08-04-2017 05:37 PM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
In all these loadouts, warriors don't wear any kind of protection for the arms (with the exception of the second loadout which features a linothorax with shoulder guards). Considering the fact that neck guards were very if not extremely rare, no wonder if chopping swords were so popular in early TL2 Italy, Spain and Greece.

Is there a precise reason for the abandonment of bronze armguards (pauldrons, rerebraces, vambraces, wrist guards) and cuisses during the Archaic Age? It was a matter of cost, practicality, both of them or another reason?

sir_pudding 08-04-2017 06:12 PM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Þorkell (Post 2114977)
How is it known that they were worn in battle rather than being some sort of ceremonial helmet?

There is photography of both samurai and plains indians wearing them.

Just because it is true that the Norse not doing so doesn't mean nobody did. It's overcorrection.

DanHoward 08-05-2017 02:33 AM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasna (Post 2115102)
Is there a precise reason for the abandonment of bronze armguards (pauldrons, rerebraces, vambraces, wrist guards) and cuisses during the Archaic Age? It was a matter of cost, practicality, both of them or another reason?

They are uncomfortable and rarely stay in place if they aren't articulated to other pieces of harness.

DanHoward 08-05-2017 02:42 AM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding (Post 2115114)
There is photography of both samurai and plains indians wearing them.

Just because it is true that the Norse not doing so doesn't mean nobody did. It's overcorrection.

The Norse wore horned helmets, but in the Bronze and Iron Ages, not the Medieval period.

Rasna 08-05-2017 06:40 AM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DanHoward (Post 2115207)
They are uncomfortable and rarely stay in place if they aren't articulated to other pieces of harness.

So basically it's a matter of armor construction. This explain why bronze TL2 gorgets, pauldrons, rerebraces, vambraces and cuisses were rare. If they had been constructed like TL4 ones, they probably wouldn't get discarded so widely, am I right?

In GURPS terms, these TL2 pieces (in particular the gorget) should they give some sort of malus?

DanHoward 08-05-2017 06:43 AM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasna (Post 2115229)
So basically it's a matter of armor construction. This explain why bronze TL2 gorgets, pauldrons, rerebraces, vambraces and cuisses were rare. If they had been constructed like TL4 ones, they probably wouldn't get discarded so widely, am I right?

This is my opinion. We don't know for sure.

Quote:

In GURPS terms, these TL2 pieces (in particular the gorget) should they give some sort of malus?
You could treat them as if they don't fit properly and have a DX penalty.

Rasna 08-05-2017 06:56 AM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DanHoward (Post 2115230)
You could treat them as if they don't fit properly and have a DX penalty.

Thanks. I think I'll assign -1 to combat rolls to the Samnite gorget. Regarding cuisses, I'm not sure if assign the -1 DX penalty for actions involving legs, because 1) the thigh guards don't cover the entire thigh but only - and not completely - the upper part; 2) seems that they allow to bend the legs without much problems, as shown here: https://www.mytuscia.com/blog/wp-con...10/Falisci.jpg

sir_pudding 08-05-2017 03:17 PM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DanHoward (Post 2115208)
The Norse wore horned helmets, but in the Bronze and Iron Ages, not the Medieval period.

Sure (although I am not sure if there are any Bronze-age people that were technically Norse yet), but the vikinger was a medieval profession. So we go from the popular image of vikings in horned helmets -> Norse didn't do horned helmets during the period that some of them went viking -> nobody wore horned helmets. The last is overcorrection for the first.

Þorkell 08-05-2017 09:37 PM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding (Post 2115296)
Sure (although I am not sure if there are any Bronze-age people that were technically Norse yet), but the vikinger was a medieval profession. So we go from the popular image of vikings in horned helmets -> Norse didn't do horned helmets during the period that some of them went viking -> nobody wore horned helmets. The last is overcorrection for the first.

And, FWIW, I said none of that.

Rasna 08-06-2017 10:35 AM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Here are another three loadouts. Latin Warrior, Etruscan 3rd Class Soldier (armed in a similar manner of poorest Hastati) and Etruscan 4th Class Axeman (similar to Etruscan Heavy Cavalryman, but without tebenna and calcei, with a more open helmet, linen pteruges instead of "mail" ones and a bronze cuirass featuring a guard for the back of the neck and finally a pretty short two-handed axe instead of spear and shield).
For a total of nine loadouts about early TL2 Italy, but fortunately they're pretty similar between them. I think I'll add the Villanovan Chieftain and the Gaulish Senon or Boius Warrior, for a total of 11 loadouts. Unfortunately I haven't much material about Nuragic Sardinians, Umbrians, Venetics and others, and I'd prefer to not make purely speculative historical loadouts.


Latin Warlord, 7th to 5th century (reconstructed from 5th century Tomb of Lanuvio)

ARMOUR AND CLOTHING

*) Tunic – Chitôn.
Type: Ordinary Clothing (Status 2) || Locations: Torso, shoulders (110%) || DR 0 || Holdout 0 || Don 17 || Weight: 1.76 lbs || Cost: $264

*) Sandals – Sandalon.
Type: Sandals || Locations: Feet (bottom) (10%) || DR 1* || Holdout -2 || Don 10 || Weight: 0.5 lbs || Cost: $25

*) Cuirass – Thorax.
Type: Plate, DR 4 (Bronze) || Locations: Chest (75%) || DR 4 || Holdout -4 || Don 34 || Weight: 9 lbs || Cost: $4,500

*) Girdle – Zoster.
Type: Plate, Light (Bronze) || Locations: Upper abdomen (12.5%) || DR 3 || Holdout -3 || Don 6 || Weight: 1 lbs || Cost: $500 || Notes: Protects the abdomen on a roll of 1-3 on 1d.

*) Greaves – Knèmides.
Type: Plate, Light (Bronze) || Locations: Knees, shins (55%) || DR 3 || Holdout -3 || Don 24 || Weight: 4.4 lbs || Cost: $2,200 || Notes: Protects the legs on a roll of 1-4 on 1d.

*) Helmet (Negau) [Pot Helm].
Type: Plate, DR 4 (Bronze, One-Piece Helmet, Ornate) || Locations: Skull, face || DR 4 || Holdout -5 || Don 9 || Weight: 1.8 lbs || Cost: $5,100 || Notes: Ornate: +2 to reaction rolls to impress.
- Helmet Padding: DR 1* || + 1.2 lbs || + $10
- Total: DR 5 || Don 9 || 3 lbs || $5,110

TOTAL (ARMOUR AND CLOTHING): Don 100 || 19.66 lbs || $12,599

WEAPONS

*) Argive Shield: DB 2, $120, 15 lbs, Don 2, DR 4, HP 20, Cover DR 9, +1 DB when used in a shield wall.

*) Large Falchion: $625, 4.5 lbs, Don 1.

*) Long Knife: $120, 1.5 lbs, Don 1.

*) Long Spear + Butt Spike: $80, 5 lbs, Don 1.

*) Small Axe: $45, 3 lbs, Don 1.

TOTAL (WEAPONS): Don 6 || 29 lbs || $990

TOTAL (ARMOUR AND CLOTHING): Don 106 || 48.66 lbs || $13,589

Based on http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~dpd/italica/twlanuvium.html

Rasna 08-06-2017 10:39 AM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
Etruscan 3rd Class Soldier, 7th to 3rd century

ARMOUR AND CLOTHING

*) Tunic – Chitôn.
Type: Ordinary Clothing (Status -1) || Locations: Torso, shoulders (110%) || DR 0 || Holdout 0 || Don 17 || Weight: 1.76 lbs || Cost: $26.4

*) Shoes – Armula.
Type: Shoes || Locations: Feet (20%) || DR 1* (0* vs. impaling) || Holdout -3 || Don 10 || Weight: 2 lbs || Cost: $40 || Notes: The soles, being thicker, give DR 2 vs. all attacks.

*) Helmet (Negau) [Pot Helm].
Type: Plate, Light (Bronze) || Locations: Skull (20%) || DR 3 || Holdout -4 || Don 9 || Weight: 1.6 lbs || Cost: $800
- Helmet Padding: DR 1* || + 1.2 lbs || + $10
- Total: DR 4 || Don 9 || 2.8 lbs || $810

TOTAL (ARMOUR AND CLOTHING): Don 36 || 6.56 lbs || $876.4

WEAPONS

*) Large Shield, Heavy: DB 3, $90, 20 lbs, Don 1, DR 4, HP 22, Cover DR 9.

*) Long Knife: $120, 1.5 lbs, Don 1.

*) Small Falchion: $200, 2 lbs, Don 1.

*) Spear: $40, 4 lbs, Don 1.

TOTAL (WEAPONS): Don 4 || 27.5 lbs || $450

TOTAL (WEAPONS, ARMOUR AND CLOTHING): Don 40 || 34.06 lbs || $1,326.4

-

Etruscan 4th Class Axeman, 7th to 5th century (reconstructed from 6th century archeological findings)

ARMOUR AND CLOTHING

*) Tunic – Chitôn.
Type: Ordinary Clothing (Status 2) || Locations: Torso, shoulders (110%) || DR 0 || Holdout 0 || Don 17 || Weight: 1.76 lbs || Cost: $264

*) Shoes – Armula.
Type: Shoes || Locations: Feet (20%) || DR 1* (0* vs. impaling) || Holdout -3 || Don 10 || Weight: 2 lbs || Cost: $40 || Notes: The soles, being thicker, give DR 2 vs. all attacks.

*) Cuirass – Thorax.
Type: Plate, DR 4 (Bronze) || Locations: Chest (75%) || DR 4 || Holdout -4 || Don 34 || Weight: 9 lbs || Cost: $4,500

*) Girdle – Zoster.
Type: Plate, Light (Bronze) || Locations: Upper abdomen (12.5%) || DR 3 || Holdout -3 || Don 6 || Weight: 1 lbs || Cost: $500 || Notes: Protects the abdomen on a roll of 1-3 on 1d.

*) Greaves – Knèmides.
Type: Plate, Light (Bronze) || Locations: Knees, shins (55%) || DR 3 || Holdout -3 || Don 24 || Weight: 4.4 lbs || Cost: $2,200 || Notes: Protects the legs on a roll of 1-4 on 1d.

*) Helmet (Corinthian) – Kranos [Bascinet + Cheek Guards + Nasal + Crest].
Type: Plate, DR 4 (Bronze, One-Piece Helmet) || Locations: Skull, head (back), cheeks, ears, nose || DR 4 || Holdout -9 || Don 13 || Weight: 3.52 lbs || Cost: $5,480 || Notes: Protects the face on a roll of 2-5 on 1d. Gives Hard of Hearing (p. B138). Crest gives +1 SM for Intimidation.
- Helmet Padding: DR 1* || + 1.68 lbs || + $14
- Total: DR 5 || Don 13 || 5.2 lbs || $ 5,494

*) Kilt – Pteruges.
Type: Layered Cloth, Light || Locations: Lower abdomen (12.5%) || DR 2* || Holdout 0 || Don 3 || Weight: 1.5 lbs || Cost: $18.75 || Notes: Protects the abdomen on a roll of 4-6 on 1d.

TOTAL (ARMOUR AND CLOTHING): Don 107 || 23.86 lbs || $13,016.75

WEAPONS

*) Axe: $45, 4 lbs, Don 1.

*) Long Knife: $120, 1.5 lbs, Don 1.

TOTAL (WEAPONS): Don 2 || 5.5 lbs || $165

TOTAL (WEAPONS, ARMOUR AND CLOTHING): Don 109 || 29.36 lbs || $13,181.75

Rasna 08-15-2017 12:56 PM

Re: [Low-Tech Loadouts] Etruscan Warrior, 7th to 3rd century B.C.
 
As promised, Gauls. These are the last loadouts dedicated to Iron Age Italy. For Greeks, there are already two loadouts in Howard's work and unfortunately at the moment I haven't sufficient sources to make another sufficiently historically accurate loadouts on theme. Hope you folk could enjoy my work in your historical campaigns.

Gaulish Warrior (Boii or Senones), 4th to 3rd century

ARMOUR AND CLOTHING

*) Trousers.
Type: Ordinary Clothing (Status 0) || Locations: Groin, legs (105%) || DR 0 || Holdout 0 || Don 16 || Weight: 1.68 lbs || Cost: $50.4

*) Shoes.
Type: Shoes || Locations: Feet (20%) || DR 1* (0* vs. impaling) || Holdout -3 || Don 10 || Weight: 2 lbs || Cost: $40 || Notes: The soles, being thicker, give DR 2 vs. all attacks.

*) Helmet (Montefortino) [Pot Helm + Cheek Guards].
Type: Plate, Light (Bronze) || Locations: Skull, cheeks (22%) || DR 3 || Holdout -4 || Don 10 || Weight: 1.76 lbs || Cost: $880 || Notes: Protects the face a roll of 4-5 on 1d.
- Helmet Padding: DR 1* || + 1.32 lbs || + $11
- Total: DR 4 || Don 10 || 3.08 lbs || $ 891

TOTAL (ARMOUR AND CLOTHING): Don 36 || 6.76 lbs || $981.4

WEAPONS

*) Medium Shield, Light (Buckler): DB 2, $45, 7 lbs, Don 1, DR 2, HP 16, Cover DR 6.

*) Broadsword: $500, 3 lbs, Don 1.

*) Long Knife: $120, 1.5 lbs, Don 1.

*) Spear: $40, 4 lbs, Don 1.

TOTAL (WEAPONS): Don 4 || 15.5 lbs || $705

TOTAL (WEAPONS, ARMOUR AND CLOTHING): Don 40 || 22.26 lbs || $1,686.4

-

Gaulish Cavalryman (Boii or Senones), 4th to 3rd century

ARMOUR AND CLOTHING

*) Shirt.
Type: Ordinary Clothing (Status 2) || Locations: Torso, arms (150%) || DR 0 || Holdout 0 || Don 23 || Weight: 2.4 lbs || Cost: $360

*) Trousers.
Type: Ordinary Clothing (Status 2) || Locations: Groin, legs (105%) || DR 0 || Holdout 0 || Don 16 || Weight: 1.68 lbs || Cost: $252

*) Cloak.
Type: Cloak || Locations: Torso (back), shoulders, thighs (back) (82.5%) || DR 0 || Holdout 0 || Don 20 || Weight: 2 lbs || Cost: $40

*) Boots.
Type: Boots. || Locations: Feet, ankles (25%) || DR 2* (1* vs. impaling) || Holdout -4 || Don 6 || Weight: 3 lbs || Cost: $80 || Notes: Protects the legs on a roll of 1 on 1d. The soles, being thicker, give DR 2 vs. all attacks.

*) Helmet (Montefortino) [Pot Helm + Brim + Cheek Guards + Nape Guard].
Type: Plate, Light (Bronze) || Locations: Skull, head (back), cheeks, eyes (29%) || DR 3 || Holdout -4 || Don 14 || Weight: 2.32 lbs || Cost: $1,160 || Notes: Protects the face a roll of 4-6 on 1d. If the threat originates from above, the Brim protects the face on a roll of 2-6 on 1d.
- Helmet Padding (without Brim): DR 1* || + 1.56 lbs || + $13
- Total: DR 4 (skull, head [back], face 4-5 on 1d), DR 3 (face 6 on 1d to 2-3, 6 on 1d if the threat originates from above), DR 7 (face 4-5 on 1d if the threat originates from above – cheeks are protected by both Brim and Cheek Guards) || Don 14 || 3.88 lbs || $1,173

*) Mail Corselet.
Type: Mail, Heavy || Locations: Torso, shoulders (110%) || DR 5* (3* vs. crushing) || Holdout -3 || Don 17 || Weight: 19.8 lbs || Cost: $1,320 || Notes: Protects the arms on a roll of 6 on 1d.

TOTAL (ARMOUR AND CLOTHING): Don 100 || 32.76 lbs || $3,225

WEAPONS

*) Medium Shield, Light (Buckler): DB 2, $45, 7 lbs, Don 1, DR 2, HP 16, Cover DR 6.

*) Thrusting Broadsword: $600, 3 lbs, Don 1.

*) [x2] Javelin: 2*($30, 2 lbs, Don 1) = $60, 4 lbs, Don 2.

*) Long Knife: $120, 1.5 lbs, Don 1.

*) Spear: $40, 4 lbs, Don 1.

TOTAL (WEAPONS): Don 6 || 19.5 lbs || $865

TOTAL (WEAPONS, ARMOUR AND CLOTHING): Don 106 || 52.26 lbs || $4,090


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