[Basic] Advantage of the Week (#34): Destiny
 

Last Week: Danger Sense, Precognition, Psychometry
Next Week: Detect

One of the difficulties I have been experiencing with this series is the order of topics for review. Following the alphabetical order from the Advantages Trait list found on p. B297-298 seems obvious, but I haven’t been doing that because some traits are so closely related, I am hard pressed to justify not reviewing them together. We also have a long way to go before we get through this list, so I am inclined to group up when I can. Sometimes two closely related traits, traits even traits that are listed together in the Advantages section of Basic Set: Characters can be very far apart alphabetically, and thus in the index. This can be problematic is the most iconic one is not the one under which the CotD will be filed.

All of this is to help explain why even though Daredevil, Dark Vision, and even Deep Sleeper are in front of it in the index, we’ll be covering Destiny today. Daredevil will most likely be reviewed alongside “Luck”, as I don’t think it is too confusing to hide it there. Dark Vision is one of several vision-related Advantages we have yet to cover, many of which are subsets of another. I am thinking of saving those all for a Week using the heading “Vision-Based Advantages” because that seems like something people might search out (and there is not enough room to list all in the thread’s title or tags). If anyone would like to discuss this further with me, feel free to PM me. If it turns out several would like to weigh in, I can start a thread over it.

Basic

Destiny can be either a Supernatural Mental Advantage (p. B48) or Disadvantage (p.B131-132), though it has aspects that are Social or “Other”, as well. Destiny can also be divided between Minor, Major, and Great, worth +/- 5, 10, or 15 points depending on whether it is taken as an Advantage or a Disadvantage. Destiny preordains a particular fate for the character in question, and is basically you agreeing to the GM putting your adventure somewhat “on the rails”. Trying to circumvent your Destiny, even a positive one, invites the GM to arrange a punishment as a matter of RAW (p.B48).

Once you fulfill an advantageous Destiny, the GM ought to allow you to transfer the points to positive Reputation based upon it. If you fulfill a disadvantageous Destiny, and it fails to strip you of appropriate Advantages (like Allies, a good Reputation, Wealth, etc.) worth the inverse of its value, then the GM is to require you pay off the difference. If you don’t, then the GM is free to assign your character Unluckiness or Divine Curse, even if they are worth less (negative numbers here) than your Destiny was. Not sure if the end compensation was intended as the only options or just guidelines.

The GM is allowed to change your Destiny, so long as it is still point value appropriate, and you don’t get to decide the specifics anyway, so one should be careful not to make assumptions. An advantageous Destiny may help keep you alive through a situation where you ought to have died, so you may live to fulfill it, but the text in [Basic] makes it clear that the GM may also find a way to make your death fit your destiny, even Major Destiny [15]. Likewise, if you have the points to pay off your negative Destiny (whatever level it is), you may escape with your honor, or perhaps with your life.

As an Advantage, a Great Destiny means that by the time it is fulfilled, everyone will know your name and sing your praises. As a Disadvantage, it means you’re in for a bad time, either death or ruin, and in a way that it affects those around you as well (possibly the entire campaign setting). A Major Destiny is a slightly less impressive version of a Great Destiny. This level is suggested for someone who is fated to die a heroic death in a certain way and can protect your character from dying in any other way. As a Disadvantage, a Major Destiny means playing a key role in a poor turn of events. An example from the text is being tasked with delivering an important message, and tragedy occurring because you arrive with it too late. A Minor Destiny (as an Advantage) basically guarantees one notable victory, while as a Disadvantage it means one notable failure.

Other Supplements

Focusing on what I own, as usual; feel free to mention things from books I don’t have available, and if all goes well, I’ll Edit it in here. From Powers, I’ve got nothing more than a reference here or there, involving Destiny interacting with other traits like Precognition. Power-Ups 2: Perks includes a Perk level Destiny or two. Power-Ups 3: Talents has Destiny as an appropriate Enabler or Prerequisite (if those rules are being used) for Intuitive Salesmen Talent.

Useful Links

Once again, I have to post this now or run so late we’ll end up skipping a week, so please forgive me for not having any of these researched yet. Do suggest ones for me to add in here, as it saves me a lot of time searching myself.

Discusion Starters

Have you ever taken Destiny? How about been in the group (even the GM) when someone else took it? How did it work out? If you’ve never played with it at all, what do you think of it? Are there any traits I ought to have included besides Destiny in this week’s discussion? I almost included Serendipity, but decided against it.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#34): Destiny
 

I think you forgot that Monster Hunters includes a variation on Destiny, instead creating a pool of points that you or your enemies can use to buy success.

As a GM, I love Destiny. It's one of those plot hook Dis/Advantages that makes it easy to tie a PC into planned events. Unfortunately, I don't think any player of mine has ever taken it in any game that actually got off the ground.

The only time I can currently recall seeing Destiny being used, was on an NPC in a game I was a player in. He was a friend to us PCs and we unfortunately failed to prevent his bad destiny for occurring, being used as the host body for the Resurrection for the first real villain of the game (there was the implication that we could save them, but the game came to an unfortunately early end due to real life reasons). The GM was especially amused at how well the dice and events around the time that said NPC's Destiny happened just seemed to work to allow said Destiny to happen without having to GM fudge anything.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#34): Destiny
 

Power-Ups 5: Impulse Points completely changes what Destiny does and instead makes it into a refillable pool of cp that can be spent on effects such as Flesh Wounds (B417). It keeps a similar 'feel' that you are destined for greatness.

As for actual use, I've never taken it as per Basic. I don't know what it does. I'm not sure what the difference between having Destiny and 'being the protagonist' is (or is that what Destiny is supposed to symbolize?). My players have never taken it, and a fellow GM of mine has discussed it with me and others and we aren't sure what it is. I believe this is because it is probably the most ambiguous trait in Gurps. To compare, Unusual Background literally does nothing and I've taken it on roughly 1/4 of my characters.

However, the version in PU5 is incredibly fun and at this point my players are always taking it, and sometimes I just give it to the entire party freely.

Serendipity is a different trait altogether in Basic, but very similar in PU5.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#34): Destiny
 

The conclusion that I came to (even though I've never been able to test it), is that Destiny would actually work like Serendipity, but only towards fulfilling your Destiny (I imagine it's probably 1 un/lucky coincidice a session per +/- 5 points).

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#34): Destiny
 

None of my players have ever chosen Destiny. I do have it as a prerequisite if they want to buy Talents above level 4 or any of the Force Talents (Force Sensitivity, Alter, Control, Sense, Telekinetic Affinity, etc. above 4).

I would love to see a player taking a destiny and really role-plays it. I think having a Destiny as a PC brings the character to another heroic level.

So I only use it for my NPCs (e.g., Anakin Skywalker has Force Talents above 4 and therefore he has a Destiny "Bring Balance to the Force", Darth Bane is another one being the "Sith'ari").

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#34): Destiny
 

I actually really like Destiny, and took it on my favorite GURPS character I ever played, a Dungeon Fantasy cleric; I took the max level of it, Great Destiny (because go big or go home :P ).

I never took any tangible benefit from the advantage itself - no bonuses to rolls, or anything like that. I also used a variant on the blessed advantage (in the form of praying to my deity), to get premonitions to help the GM push me along on the "right" path to reach my destiny, whatever it was.

I seriously didn't expect anything except a truly incredible and meaningful end to my character (I had a feeling my destiny would eventually kill me, whatever it was, so I was prepared for it). But regardless, I was just looking forward to the thing my PC would eventually do, whatever it was. I really think this should mostly be considered a RP advantage, taken because you want to make sure you do something great, or must struggle through a bad rap for a failure on your part.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#34): Destiny
 

The moment I saw the thread title, I feared that the MH/IB rewrite will come up, and totally displace any discussion of GMing Basic Set Destiny. Oh well, seems I shouldn't have worried as much as I did, but still.

I like the concept of Basic Set Destiny, but the thing that prevents me from taking it is that (a) it doesn't offer the opportunity to even vaguely decide what sort of Destiny it will be and (b) because it is so fuzzy that I have no idea how it will play out in an actual campaign (a notable fear is that the campaign will shut down months to years before I get to experience the benefits of this 15-point investment).

When thinking of Destiny, I'm thinking of being able to ask for stuff like "I want to be the next Temujin of this world!" and the GM going "Okay, something like that". Because Genghis Khaan is what I consider to be one of the more iconic examples of persons who would have Destiny if played in a campaign. Other examples would be Gautama, Jesus etc. on the religious front, Gates on the technological front etc. People who had beginnings with low point totals (or points spent not on what they became famous for, like Gautama), but managed to achieve great heights despite that. Or something like that.

I'm not happy about it being 100% GM-chosen because it means that there is a big chance that it'll be something that the player will not find fun to play.

I've had a player take Destiny once. A negative one, though. I made it be about world conquest, but in such a way that he was supposed to be a leader of a faction which he disagreed with philosophically. So on one hand the player was happy because he liked the idea of world domination, on the other it was still a disad because his character's whole philosophy was that one should resist one's destiny if he has one. The player seemed to be happy about the way it went thus far. Alas, the campaign encountered problems and was eventually cancelled.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#34): Destiny
 

The best way I think to handle Destiny in GURPS isn't as a promise that something will happen (because it often doesn't, whether the campaign ends too early or it shifts in a different direction, and then you're left with a stewing player who wanted his cool moment that never came). It's too inflexible.

Rather, I think you're better off treating them as Bonds from Nobilis: statements about your character are always true. For example, instead of having "Destiny: Become the World's Greatest Swordsman," you get "Destiny: Win every sword fight." Then if you get into a swordfight, you have to "win," whatever that means.

Nobilis handles this by giving you a bonus and some level of miraculous power, but Nobilis is a game dictated by fiat, so it handles this very well. In GURPS, I find it harder to execute this sort of thing. Impulse Buy puts it in the hands of the player by saying "Okay, you're destined to win every swordfight? Here's 3 impulse buy points you can spend to win swordfights." That's why I like that approach: it plays well with the die system and it puts the system directly in the hands of the player.

Another, perhaps better, example of how to use this is "You will die of a heart attack on October 21st, 2070," which means you can't actually die any other way. It becomes a little more easy to fiat that sort of thing away, and I think it's the intent behind the "Precognition as Detect Destiny" rules from GURPS Supers, where you see something, and then the people involved gain that Destiny ("I saw a future where... you betrayed us!" becomes Destiny "Betrays the Group"), but that can be awfully difficult to work into a campaign, and disallows for player choice. Like, what happens if the heart attack PC makes a heroic self-sacrifice that isn't all that self-sacrificial since he knows he cannot die, or does things like plays Russian roulette with a fully loaded revolver and just grins as the gun keeps clicking? I think some games and groups can handle that sort of thing (I'd totally allow it), but I can see why a lot of GMs are leery of it. I mean, how do you even price some of these things?

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#34): Destiny
 

I think that undermines one of the main reasons why people want Destiny. They want a promise that something will happen, and they want events to take steps towards this event with some regularity. E.g. if playing with a Temujinian Destiny, I'd want my character to get visibly one step closer to ruling my own empire every few sessions.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#34): Destiny
 

On the other hand, I think a lot of people avoid Destiny because they're pretty sure that they're not going to eventually get the Destined Thing.

There's a few reasons that happens. First, you can just tell the GM "I'd like to become the Whatever. That's my goal!" Then you can move in that direction when you can, and you should able to trust that the GM is more-or-less on board with it (depending on the game conceits of course, but in my games it usually works that way: if you're playing the game where you want to eventually become king, then I should be giving you the opportunity to become king). Second, what if you change your mind later? What if you get this other cooler idea ("No, not king. I mean, I lost my eye and I'm fighting all these demons! I think this is way better than running a kingdom!")? Destiny locks you in. Finally, what if you don't know what you want and you sort of what to feel things out, and it you become a king or a famed demon hunter or whatever, it's cool with you?

This is the same logic behind why Terminal Illness is a bad idea. Either the campaign ends before it triggers, or the player just makes a new character that solves the problem. If you want to be a king, why not... be a king? If you want to be a king eventually, why not take heir? And what do you do with the Destiny once it triggers? Just get those points back and spend them on your new traits? And if you don't have the points, does Destiny give you those points for free? Or do you have to pay the rest out of your pocket? If the former, how is that not point crock, and if the latter, what's the difference between just building your character as a king in the first place?

This sort of Destiny becomes a "I want to have a bit of a say in where the campaign is going," but in my opinion, the players should always have a bit of a say in where the campaign is going. The only way to make Destiny worthwhile, then, is either to be cut throat ("You have no control over this story unless you pay points for it") or to add some sort of supernatural power gained via your Destiny ("Of course you can become King, but Destiny makes it a sure thing!")

But if Destiny is already going to offer you a sure thing, why offer it to someone as a tantalizing "Maybe, eventually, you can have the cool thing" when you can offer it now? I believe you should, as much as possible, let players pay for what they have now, not for what they might eventually benefit from, eventually. That's one reason I don't like Unaging (it deals largely with a non-problem, because your character isn't in his 80s now). Don't give them the Destiny "Will get the magic sword" when they can have the magic sword. Don't give them the destiny "Can get a cool power" when you can either give them the cool power, or Latent Power [1], which means they can freely buy the power in the future if they want.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#34): Destiny
 

This is why I'm very saddened by discussion veering into IB/MH. Because I want more insight into ensuring that Destiny-characters get their Destined Thing.

I suppose it should be okay for a player to opt out of a positive Destiny (except the die-at-X one), much in the same way as a player can opt out of any other concept into which points have been sunk (e.g. get Gunslinger and then give up on guns).

In many ways, Heir is similar to a low-key Destiny game-mechanically, so I don't see much of a contradiction with 'take Heir'. These are two ways of game mechanizing the same outcome based on whether being a hidden prince is important to the concept.

I prefer the interpretation that Destiny should be an investment that offers more say in where the campaign is going (relative to whatever the base level of control is). Whether it does so through metagame means or supernatural in-game means is a matter of specific character concepts.

Uh, the whole point is that Destiny is meant to be a promise that you will get Destiny Thing. You probably can't afford to buy Destiny Thing now, and since you don't start with it, you normally have no guarantee that you will be able to achieve the Thing. E.g. you can't become the World's Best Runner in a Cold War (1970) campaign if your character loses legs after being shot by a Soviet Spy . . . but wait, the character has Destiny, so there's some random inventor who develops suitable running prostheses in 1971 (like the ones Oscar Pistorius used in more recent years), and then when your use of a 'technological device' is challenged as cheating, Destiny says that the committees and courts rule in your favour, and by 1974 you break the world's 400m record.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#34): Destiny
 

How can I forget what I don't own and haven't read? ;)

There are a lot of things I am vaguely aware of from general board discussion and this is one of them, but there is so much more I don't know about it that I figured someone else should bring it up. Thank you though; this is why I made sure to ask for others to mention these things. :)

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#34): Destiny
 

Destiny either feels like a special kind of unusual background, or it feels like it violates the "pay what for what you get, get what you pay for" design philosophy.

The impulse Buy/ Monster Hunters version is a completely different advantage, and I wouldn't mind it being discussed in a different place and time.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#34): Destiny
 

One idea is to let the PC know he has destiny but don't tell him what it is. Instead give hints from crazy women, an old wizard with a spear, what not. Destiny can be kind of like a mystery story and some ideas can even be gotten from the Mysteries volume. The main rule is that it be dramatic when it comes, unless you are pulling a one time prank.

Also don't choose a destiny the GM can't bring about. The PC cannot have a destiny to kill his father and marry his mother because he can kill your plan with mere celibacy. Unless of course you have an allegorical meaning("The PC's mother was his nation and by becoming king he married it"). In fact you can have lots of fun with those and that is in the tradition. After all Crossous was never told which empire he would destroy.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#34): Destiny
 

I made use of Destiny as a complement to Precognition: If you succeed in a Precognition roll toward another character, whatever you foresee becomes a Destiny for them. I favor doing a reaction roll, with Good being a minor favorable Destiny, Very Good an in-between one, Excellent a major one, and likewise for low numbers; if the roll comes up 10-12 you spot something really trivial that isn't worth points.

The protection against other people's Precognition is having your own. If they foresee what you're going to be doing, and *take any action* based on that, you can foresee that action, and modify your own actions, which will disrupt the future they foresaw. This could be a contest, either Quick or regular. (It's kind of like having broken the other side's codes, but knowing that if you do things that reveal you have inside information, they'll change their codes. . . .)

I used Destiny once in a campaign: Every one of the five PCs who strayed into Faerie had an advantage unknown to them. One of them was a favorable Destiny.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#34): Destiny
 

There is only one character I've seen in a game I was in that took Destiny. The Destiny: "Must one day kill his sister." In his case it was taken as a Disadvantage.

The same character showed up in three games actually, with the same Destiny, though the flavor was different. In the first game, the sister had been rendered Brainwashed, Brain-Rinsed, and Brain-Dry-Cleaned by the setting's BBEG to be the BBEG's ninja assassin, with no memory of anything besides being the BBEG's adopted daughter and assassin. The second and third time, in two different Monster Hunting games, she'd been turned into a vampire as a young teen.

I was the GM for the first one, and didn't actually spring the full details on the player until much later. I was a player in the second game, and GM for the third; in both cases I worked to explain the Destiny to the others in the game, including the second game's GM.

Although, I don't think the Destiny was ever fulfilled due to the games folding due someone's work schedule getting in the way of the game.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#34): Destiny
 

I found your rule a very good way of giving Precognition some very concrete effects. I also allow it to act as a sort of "Detect Destiny" (that is, if someone HAS a destiny, if you have precognition of some form, you'll probably pick up on what that destiny is), and this works fairly well with the Impulse Buy version (that is, someone who uses precognition can directly contribute impulse buy points to the party), though this isn't strictly necessary by the rules in Supers.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#34): Destiny
 

Could you explain about the Impulse Buy version, or give a page reference? Obviously that wasn't in Supers; Impulse Buys hadn't come out when I wrote Supers, and in fact I suspect that Kromm's advice on Supers helped shape the ideas that went into IB.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#34): Destiny
 

See PU5:5 under the heading Wild, Wild Destiny, in the box, Paying Fate's Price. Basically, instead of getting the destiny advantage as written, you get a stipend of points earmarked for Impulse Buys, on the grounds that this helps you accomplish your destiny.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#34): Destiny
 

I've never had a problem running games with Destinies, but I'm pretty manipulative and fast on my feet when I'm the GM. And my players and I are willing to metagame in support of a Destiny. We cut our teeth in very narrative style story-focused games, in the "collaborative storytelling" mindset.

IMO that's the only way you can do this, because otherwise your players will be wriggling on the fishing hook trying to either get our of their Destiny or to use the fact that they're Destined to bail them out of trouble that comes before their doom is full-wrought. The perverse incentives and vagueness are to me the major problem.

And of course, the IB/MH approaches appeared because this really is very hard to run at the gaming table, especially in gamier styles of play. Even for my style of play I appreciate having some of the storytelling plot contrivances that get the PCs back on track being in the hands of the players. With original Destiny, the whole problem is dropped into the GM's lap.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#34): Destiny
 

I think "How do I ensure that campaigns reach a conclusion with all the same players?" is probably outside the scope of this thread.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#34): Destiny
 

In my current campaign all the PCs have destiny at 15 or 5 point levels by their choice. The destiny is treated basically as a combination of unusual background and how much the story/world focuses on the characters.

For the focus I use following descriptions based on movie character types.

15 pt. Title role In film credits: in large letters: “Starring XX as XX” This means that you are one of the primary beings in the legend, this is both good and bad. Good in that if the group is successful you will go to history, bad in that there will be way less freedom to chose character development.

5pt Name Role In films your character is named in the credits by name "XX as XX" This means that your name will be remembered by scholars if all things go well.

0pt Supporting character In films your role is mentioned like: “XX as Cop #1” No special effects. History will not remember you.
-10pt Mundane background Spear carrier In films not even your role is listed in credits. Do not roll any special background events, you were born normally and had a boring childhood/adolescence/early adulthood. You are also very unlikely to be singled out in a group. Thus when talking to your group the elven princess will likely not even look at you(not to mention acknowledge you).

As for the unusual background part: The campaign focuses on the ascension to divinity for a group of new deities when a huge cataclysm happens. Those with the 15 point version will become the deities and those with 5 points can become their lieutenants/demigods and similar lower level divine things. Anyone of the two lower level categories could not get any divine traits and thus no Player selected such.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#34): Destiny
 

These are really evocative descriptions and I like how they immediately set your expectations. Very cool!

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#34): Destiny
 

This series is now indexed under "Index to threads with lasting value" in GURPS Resources.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#34): Destiny
 

On the note of Heir, I kind of like a similar approach. You figure out what your Destiny is in point total, pay for half of it, and get it for free later on. I'd still want some 'known' factor of when you'll get it (at the end of the first adventure, which is a hanful of campaigns, or maybe you 'accrue' the free points at a fraction of the speed you get actual points?), but it's a good start.

Also, Unusual Background: 'Destined to X' sounds like a good substitution. Actually, it works with plenty of traits. Unluckiness could be flavored as Destiny. So could an Ally Group that you continue to pour points into (I will conquer the world!), an Innate Attack (I have the Master Sword that will slay the true evil!), even Gadgeteer (I will invent the internet!). Higher Purpose works as a 'continued' destiny.

As for the trait itself, it might work if I knew the character would always be a part of the campaign. Then I would steer it that way without xem having a choice and eventually they will fulfill the destiny.

On that note, I don't think positive Destinies can end with your death unless the purpose of the destiny is a 'plot protection' version of Unkillable (oh wait, I've used Unkillable that way).

As for story-telling, you don't need to pay points to be a PC. PCs already are destined for conflict and (theoretically) greatness because that's how stories usually are. (Random example and spoilers:) Mulan wasn't trying to save China, but rather take her father's place in the army. The story went the way it did because that was the story being told. I don't know how taking a 15pt trait changes that.

Lastly, if PCs buy anything and don't know what they are buying, they should be getting it at half price (or double effectiveness). I know there is a rule in Basic about that, but I don't recall where. This is especially true for Destiny; If I knew I could spend 15pts now and get a 60pt package later for doing something (my destiny) without knowing what I'm getting and my destiny being hard to figure out, I... might do it.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#34): Destiny
 

Just a quick update; the next BAotW should be Detect, and I hope to finally post it tomorrow. If it doesn't happen, I will likely wait until the weekend and effectively have taken this week "off", as perhaps I should have scheduled a break given some stuff I knew was coming up.

My apologies for the wait.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#34): Destiny
 

I allow players to pick their heading when it comes to destiny. I let them pick the magnitude by the points. Then I use their Advantage as a pool of points to fuel their progression toward destiny.

Examples include; a crucial ally, wealth, status, a dramatically discovered talent, or even Extra Life. I tend to think the penalty of the delay and less control is countered by the ability to spend emergency points, but I still tend toward generosity on advantages gained through play.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#34): Destiny
 

I love the idea of grouping vision-based advantages under one heading