KYOS - getting rid of thrust and swing damage
 

With the alternative ST system presented in Pyramid 3/83, trust is always equal to swing-2. So why not get rid of the distinction entirely? Does it interact with any other rules?

Instead, each attack mode of a weapon shifts the character's strength up or down the damage table. For esthetic reasons I suggest fixing the damage at 1d for a ST 10 character. Each +1 to ST gives +1 to damage, with the progression nd-1, nd, nd+1, nd+2, (n+1)d-1, etc.

The only other rule I can think of where the distinction between swinging and thrusting damage matters is the Get Stuck rule. Now, I find this rule a little strange, because it shouldn't matter whether the weapon is swung or thrust. I suggest the rule be amended thusly:
Any impaling damage that crosses a certain threshold - say HP/2 - risks getting stuck, as per the rule on p. B405. Does that make spears worhtless? Or maybe just say that certain damage modes risk getting stuck.

Thoughts?

Re: KYOS - getting rid of thrust and swing damage
 

Well, I do not use KYOS, but have seriously considered getting rid of the two different damages in the standard system but have retained them so far. In my thinking swung weapons would just get a damage bonus.

As for the stuck thing: It is a real thing for swing and not for thrust type attacks. It is much easier to pull a thrust thing out exactly the same way as it went in than a swung thing. In fact it also applies in real life to things like axes when you hit inanimate objects and such.

Re: KYOS - getting rid of thrust and swing damage
 

Then I shall just declare by fiat that certain attack modes risk getting stuck.

Re: KYOS - getting rid of thrust and swing damage
 

Only in combat where you have two people moving around (and one potentially falling over in all sorts of awkward ways because they got a sword or spear in them), it's often not the case that you are withdrawing your weapon at the same relative angle as you thrust it in.

Thrust objects get stuck, they got stuck in combat as well. It was one the points in the C19th thrust vs. swung cavalry sword debate. Modern bayonets are designed so they don't get caught in the rib cage. Lances and spears thrust from horseback had to be careful, or had to dropped if they did hang up. Potentially you could be pulled out of your saddle if you didn't, thanks to a combination of your speed and this happening.


Your right axes certainly get stuck, but that:

a. doesn't mean thrusts don't

b. is more to do with what we hit with our axes

Personally I'd make it a factor of the injury done and what you were hitting. Rather than just the abstract sw imp rule we have. This would still make it an issue for picks etc that can inflict a lot of injury.

Ironically under current rules I could swing an axe at a tree monster all day in GURPS and never risk it getting stuck!

Re: KYOS - getting rid of thrust and swing damage
 

For me the biggest system benefit the Sw/Th distinction gives is that it helps distinguish different ways of using weapons that could be both swung and thrust.

However that could be replaced by simply recognising the difference in what ever unified system that replaced it.

Re: KYOS - getting rid of thrust and swing damage
 

It would be easy to do honestly. Just change all instances of a thrust attack to dealing 2 damage less than what is printed (assuming you keep with the 10 ST = 1d formula).

Re: KYOS - getting rid of thrust and swing damage
 

My big problem with the Thr/Sw system is that the damage progression isn't a pattern that can be defined with one mathematical equation. ST below 10 has its own thing, and once you get to a certain point the damage only changes at multiples of 5, and then at another point it's a different pattern at multiples of 10...

It's super confusing. But I do like having a distinction between Thrust and Swing. I like that a swing weapon at normal ST levels is going to do a fair amount more than a thrust weapon. It makes sense to me that if I swing a baseball bat as an attack, I'm going to do far more damage than if I thrust it.

I don't think just having one damage progression and then saying thrust equals that progression -2 will work... it's not enough of a difference at high ST, and it'll mean there's no good reason to bother with a swung weapon for high damage when a thrusting weapon will do almost as much and might have other benefits that a swung weapon wouldn't have.

I like that there are considerations to make.

This is of enough interest to me, that I'm going to spend some time at work trying to figure out what I would do (and might implement in my current campaign). I'll post the results if you're interested.

Re: KYOS - getting rid of thrust and swing damage
 

That is, in essence, what I'm proposing. For instance, Greatsword (sw+3 cut/thr+3 imp) would change to Greatsword (+3 cut/+1 imp).

That's one of the things fixed by Know Your Own Strength.

Re: KYOS - getting rid of thrust and swing damage
 

Thrust vs. Swing as an attack type matters for unarmed parries (Basic Set) and for fighting in confined spaces (Underground Adventures). I think you need to be using a thrust attack to hold back a charging enemy too (Martial Arts?)

None of which requires keeping Sw/Thr in the damage codes. But distinguishing which sort of movement an attack mode involves does matter for a few things.

Re: KYOS - getting rid of thrust and swing damage
 

What about ST below 10? Is damage for ST 1, 1d-9? I'm actually curious because I'm not familiar with KYOS

Re: KYOS - getting rid of thrust and swing damage
 

Yeah, but there are workarounds. Small creatures are not actually incapable of hurting people.

Re: KYOS - getting rid of thrust and swing damage
 

SW = TH x 1.5 was part of the GULLIVER house rules in the 1990s and oughties, as was making damage double as ST doubles (currently it increases faster than ST, and swung damage is about twice thrust at the ST scores of most adventurers).

One option would be to give each attack mode of a weapon a name and a damage or ST modifier: swing, thrust, pommel strike, back spike, rip, ... Another is to just say that swings increase your effective ST by 50% (for example).

Re: KYOS - getting rid of thrust and swing damage
 

Part of that issue is the 1 HP level of granularity. Dozens of 0.25 HP bites would be very scary, but awkward to model.

Re: KYOS - getting rid of thrust and swing damage
 

The damage mechanism in KYOS is fairly improbable for any ST outside of the range of maybe 5-20.

Re: KYOS - getting rid of thrust and swing damage
 

I think it can work, but you have to rework the bonuses for Weapon Master/Karate-Boxing-Brawling/Hooves/etc. from +1/+2 per die to +1/+2 period. What is your experience with it?

Re: KYOS - getting rid of thrust and swing damage
 

A ST of 70 can pick up a battleship (BL 10,000 tons) and cannot scratch its paint with an attack (Thrust 15d+2). At the other end of things, a rat with a ST of -10 has a Thrust damage of 1d-22, or 1d-12/10 if you use the rule of 10s.

Re: KYOS - getting rid of thrust and swing damage
 

Disallow ST lower than 1. ST 0 means you have BL 0 and damage 0. Yeah it breaks the pattern, but I can live with that. And allow buying Striking ST in unlimited quantities. KYOS isn't perfect, but it's better than Vanilla GURPS.

Re: KYOS - getting rid of thrust and swing damage
 

I think that in the context of KYOSish LogST, it would make sense to have logarithmic damage (e.g. "a gun twice as dangerous as the previous one enjoys a +1d damage increase relative to it"). Without it, the abolishing of thr/sw looks weird. After all, the initial idea of the split was that Swing is the faster progression of damage. Which for some reason was ignored in the table at very-high ST.

Re: KYOS - getting rid of thrust and swing damage
 

Sounds like a lot of work. I'm trying to get through this with as little work as possible. :o)

Re: KYOS - getting rid of thrust and swing damage
 

Levers should really get a per-die damage bonus, scaling with the size of the lever, instead of a separate table. A dagger might get a +1 per die, since the lever is mostly your arm, while most swords might get +2 per die.

Re: KYOS - getting rid of thrust and swing damage
 

Maybe relate it to the Reach of the weapon? Keeping it simple.

Re: KYOS - getting rid of thrust and swing damage
 

A quick glance through the weapon tables and I think you are right, assuming the majority of human warriors are in the 1d damage range a simple +damage/die equal to reach works for most cases. Add a traditional one-time bonus after that for weapons that are especially good or bad and it works quite well. I'd probably format it like this.

sw+X/d+Y injury

With X being per die bonus and Y being one-off bonus. So my fine broadsword would look like this.

sw+1/d+1 cut