Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

Greetings, all!

Sure, lots of game settings have clerics and believers, but very often that is little more than just another dressing for the very concrete things which are fully supported by evidence. It doesn't take faith to rely on the favour of the Deity Of War when said god regularly casts pillars of flame at the request of its high priests.

Conversely, there are a few games which seem to make a point of ensuring that faith is supposed to be faith, and not something that is concrete/provable. They tend to have traits like "Faith. 10 points cost. Your character has a belief in a higher power. It's up to your GM to decide whether this ever makes any sort of difference in the game or not."

In a less mechanistic, more fluffy example, it has been recently pointed out to me that while Mage the Ascension is a game in which Ascension plays a major role, the books provide no (or very little) evidence that Ascension is in fact achievable. Which, IMHO, is totally compatible with the themes of MtA, since MtA is a game where belief/faith also plays a major role, and is in fact the source of immense power.

Finally, there's the case of characters who have faith in campaigns where the players have been clearly told that the setting does not include supernatural elements. In this case, it's purely a matter of roleplaying. I consider this case not as interesting as the previous two, because it doesn't require/encourage having faith, only roleplaying it.

What role does faith play in your games? What's your stance on these three, or perhaps on other related, cases of involving faith in the RPGaming process and why?

Thanks in advance to all who answer!

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

I think in GURPS terms what you're talking about seems a lot like a Delusion, worth negative points. If faith makes no difference in the game, it's no more than a zero point feature, and it would then be something you roleplay because you choose to.

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

A Feature (or Delusion) would be similar to the third case I described. But I'm more interested in the first two cases, i.e. where there is no [conclusive] evidence that would [reliably] confirm or deny the hypothesis that a supernatural power (or equivalent) to has an effect on the natural world.

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

The earlier answer; No one in my gaming group enjoys faith or religion in roleplaying. It usually leaves a bad taste in their mouth. And I usually find it mostly boring, when the main two results always end up "No, your god doesn't exist" or "Your god is the antagonist". I do blame a small amount of this on newer fiction in general, where people tend to use faith to justify evil.

The newer answer; Recently a couple of my players and I have been trying to 'reapproach' religion and faith for roleplaying. My most recent example is where I am a player with a fierce fanaticism to a goddess, but not the church, something she is yet unaware of. What's incredible is how much 'dumb luck' seems to happen to her, especially after praying. In a meta sense, my GM is as baffled as me at the timing of good rolls, but it only gives my character more 'evidence' in the divine.

To compare, when faith and religion aren't the same (where worship gives workable benefits such as powers), it's slightly less bad for my players, but realistically that style of religion just lines up better with 'spiritual magic' than 'religious gifts', even if the fluff is different.

EDIT: I use GURPS mostly. Using meta traits like Luck and Destiny works well because even though the player knows the mechanical effects, the character does not. However, some people don't like there being such a contrast of player/character knowledge.

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

The thing is that this, and similar stuff like the perpetual how to make magic "mysterious" argument, does not work very well in a game.

A game needs rules, and if there are any differences in effects between characters for them, you need to tell the players at least the outline of those rules when they are opting in or out of them in order for them to be fair.

"This trait it may or may not do something" either cheats everybody who took it (or didn't), or it has a fair cost, and if it has a fair cost, it's automatically relatively apparent if it will have much effect or not.

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

I've played a character who was a devout christian in a grimdark historical fantasy setting. He had no supernatural advantages but his faith served as a justification to make him rather minmaxed to fit the "martyr" stereotype - absurdly hard to kill or intimidate, with strong social skills, but insignificant in a fight and almost pathologically selfless and naive.

That was fun for me because I am the method actor/tactician type of player. My fun isn't particularly tied to my character's success in absolute terms, and I enjoy the challenge of overcoming handicaps more than the glory of being the most effective member of the party.

If you want faith to have concrete game mechanical effects while still capturing the feel of genuine faith, you want to use subtle mechanics like rerolls or serendipitous coincidences, or things like GURPS's higher purpose and daredevil advantages, where the faithful can't count on any particular concrete effect but just do better across the board when acting according to their faith.

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

I'm not sure what distinction you're making between 'having' faith and 'roleplaying' faith. In general, if 'faith' has a meaning, its effects can be either direct (if you have faith, you get plusses) or indirect (if you have faith, certain entities react differently towards you). Note that faith can have indirect effects even if there are no supernatural forces associated with it (entirely mundane entities might still care about your faith), it's just that supernatural entities often have supernatural means of detecting your faith.

However, if you're charging points for faith, it should have reasonably defined concrete effects. Even if the only concrete effect is "you detect as faithful".

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

Roleplaying faith as in "I have read the setting materials / paid points / etc. and so I know if I play my character like this, the supernatural entities of the setting will provide goodies". Having faith is more along the lines of "there's this story from NPC preachers, who say that doing such-and-such provides supernatural benefits; I don't have proof, and there aren't any OOC signs to confirm that there's a mechanical effect, but I have faith that the benefits are true and thus will behave accordingly". In both cases, roleplaying a PC with faith is a thing; in one case the player doesn't have faith (due to having proof one way or another), in another the player does.

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

Why is the player expected to have faith?

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

I've never done it as a player. I don't think playing NPC's, even major NPC's counts (I've totally done that). I also suspect its cheating if you wield great social power via your station as the high priest.

I'll have to try that some time. Usually I don't think of it when character creation comes up. And I'm always a little cautious about it, as I'm almost always the most religious player in the room.

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

In Mage how could you know Ascension was real even if you experienced it? :) "Is this real?" questions are why I starting ignoring Mage almost as soon as I heard of it.

I'm about to start playing a Pathfinder Cleric again. Idunno Szralic Cleric of Desna, Lady of the Stars. Idunno definitely thinks the Lady of the stars is real because he talks to her when he's outside at night. He thinks She answers him too.

Members of any organized religion based around Her may be a little dubious. Idunno doesn't do "organized" very well. Somebody/Something is giving him magic powers but I don't need to know if She is real even in game terms.

Is that even close to what you are asking (if you even have a question in there somewhere)?

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

Expected? Not in most campaigns.

But I found it interesting that in some games, the exploration of faith can go deeper than the PC and reach all the way towards testing the faith of the player.

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

Such questions seem to be the reason why MtA is quite relevant to the exploration of faith.

That seems somewhat related and somewhat not. Notably, a Pathfinder (or D&D, for that matter) Cleric seems to be only vaguely related to matters of faith because in those settings, evidence exists that confirms the reality of divine and supernatural powers.

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

Idunno doesn't believe because he gets stuff and he didn't become a Cleric so he could get stuff. He experienced a spontaneous epiphany around the campfire one night. All the stuff is just because the Lady of the Stars is generous.

_His_ faith is absolute. Mine is irrelevant.

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

It still seems like either a purely roleplaying choice or some player's going to get ******. Either the Faithful spending points for something that has no effect, or the non-Faithful watching someone that didn't spend points on something that does have an effect.

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

Even if his motivation isn't selfish, he still lives in a world where the supernatural is a proven fact, not a matter of faith. Him accepting the clerical role would require about as much faith as me accepting a programmer role: "computers work, and everybody knows it for a fact and there is no doubt"; "gods exist and do miracle, everybody knows it and there is no doubt".

Now, about that: I'm wondering how much such an attitude can be a barrier to the exploration of faith by a player/the players of an RPG.

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

That sounds more like psychotherapy than gaming.
I had a GM that brought way too much personal baggage to the game. Didn't really lead to players' fun.

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

Rereading everything, you're interested in getting the player to trust the GM will probably give him concrete benefits for certain gaming choices?

Because that's eventually what it boils down to. The GM has decided to give hidden benefits or not to give them, and the player doesn't know if he's going to get them or not. Because the GM isn't a mysterious force, but a person, it comes to trust in the GM.

I can think of one game where that would fit right in: paranoia.

Which highlights that such a game is about risk taking and embracing the unknown, and that theme fits dark gritty games best-- which don't lend themselves to religion.

By contrast, a GM could say: "This trait will be beneficial to you, but I'm never going to tell you exactly how." The GM is now duty bound to actually give the bonus. I suppose you could play around with that, but in some ways its just as effective at breaking out of the game as a bonus that you can see.

I don't see either of these as really working with "Faith". Instead they deal with trust, risk, and reading your GM's poker face.

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

In general I would say that this is the type of thing that is a truly terrible idea to incorporate in a game unless all the players already share a faith, and maybe even then. As in, the type of thing that may cause the entire gaming group to self-destruct.

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

Well, there's a huge difference between some forms of magic existing in world and mysterious omni(potent/science/benevolent) entities.

I can see someone accepting all magic or even all healing arts as divine and proof of gods while another would use and abuse such abilities. But that also falls to roleplaying.

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

Yeah, I'm trying to imagine how this could possibly play out and not coming up with anything at all positive. It seems like the basic form is "You can play your characters with whatever faiths you like, I the GM may arbitrarily decide one or more of them is true (or outstandingly false) and secretly reward (or punish) the players who picked those." I can't see that ending well. What is even the goal here? Inducing every player to wonder every time something goes against his character if it is because the GM is cheating because I disagreed with his choice of faith?

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

For example, Cidri and Yrth. In both settings fatigue-spending book-learned wizards cast spells as skills that can objectively affect the world. Demons are proven to exist in both settings and hell is likely, but there is no proof in either that the Christian God nor any similar entity is real. Yet people there still have faith in a God or do not the same as here, where there is likewise no concrete proof.

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

If there are ANY supernatural entities who will do you a solid if you suck up to them enough, that's more than enough basis for a religion. They don't have to be omnipotent, omniscient or benevolent. Just more powerful than you and aware of the things you do to try to win their favour

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

That depends on what you consider religion to be, what "supernatural" means, and a whole bunch of other questions. But in any case a cleric who just has that is a DF cleric.

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

Ask yourself, what faith would be like when applied to a human and extend it. For interest, do you have faith that your daughter won't do drugs, or your love interest won't cheat behind your back?

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

I think partly the problem is the source of events. In the real world, these things are decided by factors you don't know and couldn't possibly ever determine. No matter how much you know about your daughter, you can't get inside her head to know all the thoughts that contribute to her decision. Maybe some part of the unknown factor in any event is a supernatural power that can like you if you flatter it enough.

RPGs though, you don't have that. This stuff is all determined either by the decisions of the GM or the roll of the dice. The only points of application of religious ritual are flattering the GM with worship (which will not be an issue of faith, he clearly does exist and control stuff, no leap of faith there, and it's usually pretty obvious when sucking up works too) or hoping supernatural powers alter the dice (which some gamers do have rituals for, but the fundamental assumption required to use dice to resolve stuff is the outcomes are more or less random, if you didn't mostly believe that, you wouldn't use them in an application where being random is the *point*)

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

Those are all possible events though. Nothing supernatural. It's more like asking do you have faith that your daughter won't sprout wings, or your love interest's human mask fall off to reveal an interdimensional alien.
I trust my love won't cheat on me, because I have evidence of her past behavior for the last 18 years.
And neither trust nor faith are hopes or guesses like me saying what color eyes you have.

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

We will accept your presumption of evidence though I suspect that you just have faith in reason and so are making excuses for yourself for those moments when in fact you are demanding investigatory discipline for yourself in the wrong context. Which is not really to the point.

But the point is that when the word was made it would have meant what it meant to the hearers which is roughly the same as I described even if only by analogy. It is not what I would mean by "faith" in the theological context because there was no theological context. Faith is something of a postpagan idea. Zeus did not demand faith of people as we know it. He demanded an homage that was subtly different from it which involved rote performance rather then faith. Many Theological concepts are metaphors because there was not a word for them when they arrived. Even the term "God" is an evolution of small letter "god" which was the only form they knew and meant roughly "big spirit" or possibly "authority"(if I recall a human chief could be called a "godi" but would surely know he was not Odin). The point is that the fact that God or a god(from the gaming pov) has supernatural power matters less then the fact that He said he did and that He would look after you if you trust Him-in the long run. The supernatural power is irrelevant. If I said I had supernatural power it would not matter that I don't. It would matter that I am either lying or fictionalizing for entertainment purposes or simply daft because I pretty obviously don't have supernatural power other then possession of human reason, and don't particularly want it. If you have faith in me you will accept that I am telling the truth that I do not have any power you would term supernatural, that is I am not a secret warlock. But it is the declaration that is important not the supernatural. Jesus' disciples saw him directly, so they did in fact have as much reason to have faith in Him as you do to trust your love interest. I have to deal with a combination of a large number of less blatant things. However Faith is not believing against reason, it is believing against the vageries of emotional turmoil. If you have faith in your love interest because you know her for 18 years or faith in reason because you find it dependable you do well.

Part of the problem is the fault of the rather simplistic theology that comes from Sunday School that seems to imply there is supposed to be something magic about believing hard enough even though that is really more attempted psionics then faith. an interpretation that is really an extrapolation of a few Bible verses despite the evidence of history not to mention Bible verses to the contrary(surely all the citizens of Constantinople in 1453 cannot have been culpably lacking in faith in that sense). Job had faith, even though he is a poster boy for the point that having faith might still be unpleasant for the faithful.

All this sounds overly preachy and threatens to bring the thread off course. However I had to spend a lot of time defining faith because it was a complicated concept and someone has to define it if it is to be roleplayed. From Gurps terms it should be played like any virtue a cleric might have. Give the cleric Divine Favor, and make him pay for it in Disciplines of Faith. Which is probably something like what would be done with a cleric anyway. Then force him to roleplay faith in the course of his adventures. Or treat the god as a Patron and have trust be one of the demands he makes. Or something of the kind.

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

I think the big, big issue here is; who has the faith? Characters have faith in all sorts of things (gods, people, gravity, etc.). Just like real people. Asking that the PCs all have faith is no different than asking that all PCs be emotion-filled teens or supers with secret identities or parents.

But the players themselves? That does go pretty hard against most rpgs. The rules exist for many reasons, but one is knowing what your character is capable of and to take as many unknown variables away. I can look at my character sheet in a system I know well and intuitively know what the character is capable of almost as well as I know what I am capable of. The almost is to point out that it will always be less than how well I know my own capabilities, and those surprise me enough.

Since I know GURPS the best, I'll talk mechanically there. Disads of faith already exist aplenty, and quirks cover near the rest. Faith is a personality trait. Either the GM and/or player can interweave it into the story. As for advantages, the best way to have a clear 'benefit' of faith without knowing what it is would be to take meta-traits or Patron, where the deity in question is clearly backing you up but you don't know how, and plays well into the whole 'I don't know if Deity is there, but i have faith'. But none of this will give the players any sense of faith. No more than a combat scene make them bleed. But they can get caught up in it, same as a great leader's speech or the attractive NPC who hits on them.

Lastly, do the players want to have faith? I think that's the most important question of them all. Because otherwise, all the faith-based mechanics will do is either create player/character knowledge differences or 'hidden mechanics' that's no better than relying on dice rolls.

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

Uh-huh. That is basically it. Roleplaying faith is like roleplaying any personal quality. It is an appropriate part of the CoH of a cleric or pallidin but it is not something that can be measured in a way that it will have a one-to-one effect on what a god does for a PC. It can be demanded by a god and reward by one but what it cannot be is measured.

Possibly the problem here is that we are talking about the difficulty that makes RPG magic so ludicrously scientific when literary magic demands nothing of the kind and when it does often has an uncanny bit that cannot be treated that way. RPGs are a mathematical device and this is not really a concept that can be quite rendered into formula.

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

You are mistaking faith for trust again. I don't think we can discuss this without ticking someone off though. This entire topic is the reason for more than a few wars after all.

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

I am not MISTAKING anything and it is irritating to be told you know more then me about something you deny. However as your said you ask for allowances in regard to your speech and I would want such myself. In any case if you go to a real theologian you will find that he draws the distinction between faith and credulity at a similar place. I am posting an INTERPRETATION which is in fact reasonable and fits within tradition. You are free to make another interpretation, but do not say I am MISTAKEN when I am perfectly aware of the interpretation you are giving and am simply rejecting it as unsophisticated theology.

From the point of view of roleplaying which is the pov, however impossibly, we wish to remain lest we get a lightning bolt from the Great God Hackard either method can be arranged. The first way to simulate faith is simply to make a Will role. Another is to have it as part of Disciplines of Faith, or Code of Honor. The second is a lot more complicated but it can be fruitful in good gaming.

Re: Faith, actual *faith* in RPGaming
 

<MOD>

The closing of GenChat does not mean that debates about faith and religion have become on-topic here. They aren't. And adding a disclaimer that you know you're veering into forbidden territory (e.g., "You're clearly wrong because of this reason and that reason. But that's getting off-topic, so let's focus on the RPG side, everyone.") doesn't make it better; if anything, it makes it worse.

And I think you'll find I can be angrier than Andrew when it comes to my favorite forum, so don't pollute it.

</MOD>