Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game Discussion Thread
 

A post has appeared on EN World revealing a huge project we've been working on.

This is your official spot to discuss the forthcoming Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game and its Kickstarter. Let the adventures begin!

EDIT 9/1/16: The Kickstarter is live!

EDIT 9/1/17: Wow! It's been a year since I updated this post! Well, we have a full subforum to discuss all aspects of the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game, so we strongly encourage you all to take part of that subforum. We're not going to lock/close this thread (yet), but we'd like to discourage further posting to this thread for things that would be better spun off to their own thread(s). Thanks for being awesome, everyone!

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For the sake of thus frustrated by lack of link, would you please post a link to the kickstarter?

Thanks in advance,
Nymdok

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First "Yay!!!" and good luck.
Will the revisions include changes to some spells from GURPS Magic?
For example the article Kromm did in Pyramid?

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Post says it starts Sept 1st so probably just waiting on that for the link.

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There's a reason this took him several months... ;-)

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I just hope Kick starter takes my credit card this time. I'm still livid that they stopped taking Amazon Payments and wouldn't take my card, but this is cool enough I'll be motivated to try it

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I'm really looking forward to more of the art. This looks to be heavy on the Brandon Moore, which I regard as a good thing.

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I just hope I can somehow earn some extra money in September...

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Yippe ki yay!
I so do not want that blemish to color this project.

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Speaking as someone who already has all of DF in PDF format, this is a must-back for me. Having DF as a pre-packaged entry into GURPS, as a book I can lend to curious friends, will be a huge asset.

Naturally it will include a lot of content we've already seen before, hopefully it will also include completely new stuff as a bonus for the faithful, too. :-)

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From the YMMV file: I was thrilled when they decoupled from Amazon Payments, because Amazon decided I was a fell miscreant and froze my account and WOULD NOT reactivate it. To this day, I do not know why. They're happy to take exactly that same card for purchases; it was just the Payments side that was recalcitrant.

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This, Discworld and Mars Attacks in the same year? What a time to be alive!

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That is one of the 2 things I dont like about PDFs, and the major one really.
Loaning your books out to a friend was a great help in starting a game.

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Hmm! It'll definitely be interesting to see how this goes.

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The box will have five books in it (!), so you may still have to do it sequentially. :-)

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I've got mixed feelings. Where was this three or four years ago when D&D 4e was floundering? Why fantasy now? It seems to me that superheroes or zombies would be more popular and help it to stand out on the shelves.

Oh well, as a retailer who runs two or three GURPS games a week, I'm stoked to see SJG actually, finally moving forward on GURPS. I might just pledge retailer on this.

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Wow!

Let's see...will their titles be Players Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Dieties and Demigods, Monster Manual, and Fiend Folio? :)

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Judging by the photo on ENworld, those books can't be very thick. Hopefully, the breakdown is something like a templates book, for character generation and advancement, a running-the-game book, a spells book, a monsters book, and, well, something else. So that the different chunks of the game can be passed round a table conveniently.

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One of the five (and the thickest):

Adventurers (128 pages)

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Fantasy RPGs are still the most popular genre of RPGs, so it makes sense that GURPS first foray into 4e standalone products would be not!D&D. I do hope that this rakes in enough cash that SJG will consider doing the same for Monster Hunters and other lines though.

And the timing isn't that off. D&D 5e has been pretty successful at introducing new people to the hobby; additionally, OSR seems to be taking off with both new and established players, which meshes well with DF's classic hack n' slash vibe. This may be the perfect time for GURPS to jump on that bandwagon and ride it as long as they can.

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So here is a question from a GM that will definitely get it but players that likely won't.

Will the update books contained in the DF box be available separately as PDFs? I know this is a print game update of the older PDFs, but it would be nice to have the updated parts used by players most available in digital format as well.

Thanks,

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For those who read my posts on the subject starting back in 2008. It is about damn time :-). I will definitely pick up this kickstarter.

I will remain cautiously optimistic and see what they plan to include in the way of stuff. (spell list, monster list, etc). My hope is that they cover the basics and then layer the more off-beat original stuff along with it.

If winds up being a fleshed out version of what we seen so far then I will definitely be happy with the product.

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Fantasy from what I seen is still the major seller. As for why now, because RPGs have been rising from where the market was a couple of years back according the IVc2. It not happy days are here again yet but the RPG Industry is not staring into the pit of abyss either.

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True to a point, but isn't part of the OSR's goal a "rules-light" style of play where the books spell out little and the referee's discretion is large? Now, for sure, GURPS lends itself well to "roll and shout" play once you know the system... but that's not the usual first impression.

I'm sure SJGames has done their market research. So I'm wondering who the specific target audience(s) is/are for this boxed set. D&D/Pathfinder players looking for more customization and "crunch"? Detail-minded gamers in general who somehow don't know GURPS exists? Previous GURPS players who have fallen away from the fold? New gamers picking up their first RPG? Some combination of the above?

It would be interesting to see the back of the box mock-up, in order to read the ad copy and get a sense of what browsers in the store will see.

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I am honestly more excited for this than for anything else. I already have Dungeon Fantasy and all its supplements and the know-how to kitbash working games from them. What I'll be backing this (to the hilt!) for is a chance to get the fruits of Kromm's brainmeats on a proper 4e rework of GURPS: Magic.

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It only true about PART of the OSR. The only constant is that is centered on classic D&D editions. From there it goes in all sorts of direction and with other games roped in depending on the interest of the publisher. For example Blood & Treasure and Castles and Crusade are two OSR games that are compatible with AD&D 1st but incorporate a lot of 3.X and newer mechanics into their systems.

ACKS core is similar to the old B/X edition of D&D but on top of that bolts on economic/domain mechanics comparable to what Traveller and GURPS Low Tech has released.


Depending on how it written this wind up teaching people how to do "roll and shout" from the get go. I know that this is an issue with the 3rd and 4th edition core books. But it not an issue when I run a campaign with novices because what I teach and the handout I use makes GURPS understandable.

My point of contention over the years that the problem with GURPS is not one of design but of presentation. Now I guess I will see if I was right or will I have to eat crow.


Well GURPS strength used to be customization along with a gritty realism due to the design of the rules and how the relate to real life action. The customization part is pretty much a wash these days. GURPS may be better and more flexible but there are plenty of "good enough" system out there that do the job just as well.

But from publishing and running OSR/3.X/Pathfinder/5e material myself. The simple fact that the hit points systems they use doesn't give those games the same feel as GURPS has. I recently played some campaigns of Fantasy AGE which uses 3d6 and has a lots of ways of customizing characters. But it also has D&D style hit points so the result is more like D&D than GURPS.

My concern isn't that they are doing a powered by GURPS RPG, my concern is that it is a boxed set. While I love the idea, it has to make it more pricey than even a hardback book. I had to guess, I would say there is support for a DF RPG Book, but I am not so sure about a boxed set. The OSR is littered with attempts at doing boxed sets that didn't do well.

Of course they could always combine the interior books and sell that at a later point.

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Before I get myself or Kromm in trouble, I should point out my comment was tongue-in-cheek. I don't know for a fact how much revision Kromm did to GURPS Magic, and I should not have implied what I did. (Maybe he rewrote it stem to stern; I really don't know.) I apologize for any confusion I caused . . . both today and back in my too-hasty editing pass in 2004. ;-)

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I've decided to run as many Dungeon Fantasy posts on my blog as I can. Since I'm rather busy myself I thought I'd get some folks who enjoy GURPS, but lack a blog to help promote GURPS during this time. After all, we want this to fund and maybe do better than both Car Wars and Ogre! If you're interested drop me a PM or quote this and I'll contact you.

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sigh.
However I have faith in Kromm.
There is no way this was a quick compilation and edit, I feel he had to put a lot of thought into commentry and feedback and how he could make it better then the original.
5 books, one being Adventurers so I am betting Magic is another book by itself.
I don't expect it to replace GURPS Magic in its entirety (no Gate college for example) but I fully expect there to be changes. If there are and this is advertised I expect that alone to be cause for increased sales.

In fact lets see what books we can guess at?
Adventures is a definite.
Gamemastering
Magic
Combat
Monsters

Those are my guesses.

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They could, certainly, but I see the five-volume set as a desirable functional feature. The way the content is configured, I can, without thinking about it at all hard, conceive of cases where four of the five books are in use by different players simultaneously rather than waiting to pass a single book around. I see that as a significant point in favor of the goal of ease of use.

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The guiding star or mantra here was, "Keep it straightforward, keep it simple, and keep it standalone (which is to say, include enough so the GM can run a typical group of delvers without needing to buy other books)."

That applies to adventurer creation, system rules, magic, and more.

Since we've already leaked that Adventurers will be the longest book at 128 pages, that should make it obvious that the whole of GURPS Magic will not be included. What will be included is a distillation of that book that is straightforward, simple, and standalone.

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Combat and Game-mastering are probably together in a Campaigns type book. I bet you're right on magic and monsters. That leaves one mystery book. Since the game is "ready to play," I'm betting some sort of campaign, or series of encounters, or something like it.

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I can too, depends on the books of course but Magic would easily and often likely make the rounds during a game.
Hmm wonder if Combat cards are a stretch goal?

Your probably right. I was thinking about the utility of a combat book being passed around at the table but Combat Cards would work too.
Or a common modifier chart.
Maybe a Dungeon book for the adventure? So you have rules for building and populating a dungeon as sort of a generic adventure?

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Or, knowing the Doctor's hobbies, maybe a book on good drinks for perusal during the gaming session.

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Quick aside
Please remember some people don't live in the US when choosing kickstarter rewards etc.

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Yes, a Europe friendly fulfilment option would be greatly appreciated!

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As I've said elsewhere I'm going to want this thing no matter what it contains. It's useful merely as propaganda, if nothing else. But for my own personal uses I do have a question. It may not yet be answerable.

Will it be made clear, either externally or inside the box set itself, what the contents are "replacing" as far as the DF line is concerned? I'd like to know which PDFs I can "retire" to the "not needed" folder once I have this thing in hand.

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What This Is: A standalone roleplaying game, Powered by GURPS – a game created using GURPS as a toolkit. To create it, I had to rewrite big chunks of the GURPS Basic Set, GURPS Dungeon Fantasy (mostly the first three volumes), and – have no fear – GURPS Magic. I also had to write more original material than I realized back in January . . . Whether you're a GURPS fan, a player of other RPGs, or a total newbie to gaming, there's something in the box for you.

What This Is Not: An "update" or a "repackaging" of anything. This is not "all the GURPS Dungeon Fantasy supplements and related Pyramid issues in one place for existing GURPS fans." That would intimidate the living crud out of newbies, who we hope will buy the game! In fact, you don't have to know what a "gurps" is to use this. (Depending on how many house rules you use, you might even be better off if you don't!)

More on this in upcoming weeks . . . I'm still writing the Designer's Notes articles.

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It's related to the grue, I know that much.

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I thought it was a Desi DJ from the London area.

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"Gurps" sounds so much weirder when you put "DJ" in front of it.

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I, for one, think this is huge.

The biggest drawback for GURPS newbies is buying 2 large hardcover books, and then the Dungeon Fantasy PDFs, and having to flip between the books (e.g., character templates and lists of appropriate ads/disads in a PDF, and the definition of those skills/ads/disads in the Characters book). It's somewhat clunky, frankly. Plus there is so much in the core books that don't apply to the setting that it may be confusing as well...

Now I want Monster Hunters, Powered By GURPS. And Action! PBG.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game Discussion Thread
 

Steve Jackson Games' CEO Phil Reed answers a few of my questions about the recently-announced GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Boxed Set over at Gaming Ballistic.

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Will it have in depth examples of how to actually use the rules?

My biggest issue with GURPS presentation (alright, one of them) is that while I think I could easily compete in GURPS Trivial Pursuit and be able to cite many of the rules from memory, actually using them is another story

I've read both the Basic Set, Martial Arts, and Technical Grappling takes on grappling for instance, several times through, and with only a little help could probably cite any rule therein . . . . . but for the life of me my mind freezes up and I couldn't run a grappling fight to save my life

I've really enjoyed example grappling matches I've played in run by someone else, and I actually usually had a better memory of what the rules are . . . but the actual applying of them always falls short for me

Same with the Codex Duello rules for Magical Duels

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Sigh, I've lived this long without a Kickstarter account, and now I have to make one.

Really excited to see this, on the heels of the 4E Discworld announcement.

My small contribution: I plan to run a newbie-friendly drop-in-friendly DF game on Roll20, whenever this comes out. (Okay, I was planning to run one anyway, but a new edition of the rules provides extra motivation.)

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It's great that SJG is finally doing an entry level product. I'd trade a cardboard map for two paper ones in a heart beat and a color one for two black and white ones. I know I'm not in the majority.

I wonder if we'll see cardboard heroes in this.

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I seriously doubt it will use Technical Grappling in any capacity.

Yes. Phil said so, in Doug's Q&A.

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Yes! Finally a third powered by Gurps game to complete my set. This time covering the most popular genre of gaming. I am looking forward to an application of the Gurps toolkit by excellent game designers. Good luck on your kick starter.

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We are a U.S. company and will be shipping a heavy box from our U.S. offices. We do not set international shipping charges and have to work within the shipping rates as they exist.

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I have a similar problem. It's not the individual rules that are the issue, it's the complex interactions among them. I'm regularly baffled by folks here who know how to bring to bear all the different variables without more than a second thought.

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A little more info:

http://www.sjgames.com/dungeonfantasy/

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VERY nice.
Love the cover art, I usually wont let art influence my purchase but I'm in the minority so glad its there.
400 spells covers a whopping part of Magic and glad you used a different name for that book by the way.

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Oh drool, drool, drool. Towel please?

What is the rough total page count?

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More expensive I can cope with (and expect). Being excluded entirely is more what I am concerned about.

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Yeah. This Kickstarter is gonna explode. :)

Looking forward to watching SJG have to get creative in coming up with additional, attainable stretch goals when the initial ones get met. This is going to be "watch everyone's happiness increase exponentially".

Let's get ready...

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From the sounds of it they're more than happy to ship internationally if you eat the shipping costs.

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Judging by the Car Wars Classic Kickstarter, my guess is that the stretch goals are already planned out. I don't think anyone wants another Ogre Kickstarter; it wasn't bad, but I'd say it got pretty crazy.

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Actually, the fifth one will be T1-4: The Temple of Elemental Evil.

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How well does it mesh with the current DF line?

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Exactly. I'm already looking forward to run DF games when this set comes, and plan to chip in the first day the kick starter project starts. I will be very disappointed if they did not ship to Japan.

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I'm not sure you're too far off. Adventurers is character creation, the Players Handbook without spells, or the Men half of Men & Magic. Exploits is the Dungeon Masters Guide without the treasure, or Underworld & Wilderness Adventures. Spells is the Magic half of Men & Magic and the Treasure half of Monsters & Treasure. (GURPS has traditionally paired magic items with the spells needed to make them. Even in Dungeon Fantasy, where mages can't make items, this might hold.) Monsters is the Monsters half of Monsters & Treasure, or the Monster Manual. What's left?

An adventure.

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Well enough, but there will be adaptations needed. Those going from the box to the PDFs will get a wealth of extra stuff, but they'll have to learn some annoying GURPS mechanics that I either pounded flat or swept under the carpet, and will notice that bards aren't quite the same. Those going from the PDFs to the box will notice a lot of replication, but they'll get some surprising new stuff and replacement rules for things that kind of suck in GURPS, and will notice that bards aren't quite the same.

I'd say that (GURPS Fourth Edition + GURPS Dungeon Fantasy) and the box are more compatible than GURPS Fourth Edition and GURPS Third Edition, Revised. But the box is a bit like "GURPS 4.5, only for hack 'n' slash."

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So basically Bards arent quite the same.

The 4.5 for hack & slash bit might raise a few eyebrows.
Seriously though, thanks for the spell book in advance.

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What I found disappointing about the contents was the mention of the map, personally I'd want something similar to the Dungeon Tiles Wizard's did, so that the box comes with multiple dungeons.

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Nope . . . they got even cooler.

(As the current player of a bard, I endorse all changes 100%!)

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So... it's now the 1st*, where's the Kickstarter linkie!

My wallet can't throw money at a Kickstarter without a linkie!




* Timezones may vary.

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LOL
Only 11:21 PM here and in Austin :)

Though Im betting it wont be up till business hours at least.

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That's good to hear. I always thought the bards needed a little something to make them more interesting.

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One thought on the battle map. I hope they looked long and hard at how Milton Bradley's Hero Quest map was set up. You could create a wide range of dungeons just by where you placed the doors. A single adventure, fixed map would be a tragic failure.

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So I guess we know what the 5th book is:

"All this power guarantees epic games in no time . . . starting with the new adventure that comes in the box!"

From the earlier link, way down the page.

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Good point about the doors, but I'd still prefer a modular based approach, because that makes adding expansions to the existing dungeon easier.

And for the Bard, yeah that really needs some help. The 11 presented templates in Adventurers always felt like it was trying to copy D&D, especially 3rd ed

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We prefer "emulate."

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Hmf! Speaking again as the current player of a bard, you're clearly just jealous of how awesome we are. Lyndon Glibtongue has been hailed as MVP on many a successful adventure, to the point where the GM is terrified to include any normal humanoids as foes lest I turn them against their master. :)

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Hi Phil,

Many Kickstarters use fulfilment partners to bulk ship to Europe, then send off packages individually from there. It seems to work out significantly cheaper for the end consumer.

These are the kind of "Europe friendly' practices people are hoping for.

Cheers,
Dan

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Agreed. Bards rule. Barbarians drool. Fighters mule. And wizards kick it old school (Necromancers in the hizouse!).

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That will not happen. Every stretch goal is already planned and completely worked out so the financials work. We wlll not repeat the mistakes of the Ogre Designer's Edition Kickstarter. IF we meet all planned stretch goals then there will not be more. We're not planning to fall into the Ogre Designer's Edition trap again.

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We have seen those. If the project closes successfully, and if there is enough support in any one region of the world, we will look at those options again. BUT we cannot commit to such a thing until we know the level of demand in a region.

Shipping costs for the Kickstarter project will be collected after the project closes during the BackerKit survey. This allows us to determine the actual shipping costs closer to shipment _and_ makes it so that shipping charges don't apply to reaching the goal.

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I mentioned this before in another thread, but I'm formally asking a question: What's the target audience of the DF Box?