Steve Jackson Games Forums - Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game Discussion Thread

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Re: Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game Discussion Thread

For those of you who haven't seen it yet, they've just announced two possibilities for the stretch goal bonus pdf: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects.../posts/1672190

Magic Items is certainly my own preference, because they can be adapted and reused so much more readily than a second dungeon.

Dungeon 2, on the other hand, I have to admit is likely better for an intro product like this. The more content that's ready to be played right out of the box, the longer people will stick with it. It also gives them ideas to draw on when it comes time to design their own dungeons and adventures.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by trooper6 (Post 2035580)

This implies that DF is only about murder-hobo'ing and that if you want any kind of depth of narrative this is not the game for you.

I'd think there would be a note in the box that if you want more, you can always buy the GURPS Basic Set. Which is the point of the Basic Set; it's easy to add that stuff back into the game. Case in point: A few sessions ago, I had one of the characters on trial for unlawful spell dueling (because the character didn't even bother to run). Since it was GURPS, I just whipped open Campaigns (or, more precisely, went into my already-opened copy on my iPad), made the reaction roll for the judge, and handled it accordingly, only having to wing the fine (surprisingly, there's no guidelines for punishment other than incarceration; I went off Cost of Living). Were I running D&D instead, I'd have to either make up something, or try to interpret the section in the Ready Ref Sheets (the layout of which leaves something to be desired) and hope I had the extra stuff from that on the character sheets.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Rasputin (Post 2035588)

D&D also has reaction rolls. It's one of the main functions of charisma.

But, besides that, I think that the point is that, by only using DF, you can have much more variety than simply kicking down doors, killing monsters and looting. The ad copy might be doing DF a disservice by painting it as more limited than it actually is.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game Discussion Thread

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikosandros (Post 2035591)

But, besides that, I think that the point is that, by only using DF, you can have much more variety than simply kicking down doors, killing monsters and looting. The ad copy might be doing DF a disservice by painting it as more limited than it actually is.

This is exactly what I'm saying.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game Discussion Thread

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikosandros (Post 2035591)

D&D also has reaction rolls. It's one of the main functions of charisma.

Uh, everyone knows that. What it doesn't have is how to handle trial by judge (reaction roll) vs. adversarial trial (quick contest of Law) in the main rules.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Rasputin (Post 2035598)

Uh, everyone knows that. What it doesn't have is how to handle trial by judge (reaction roll) vs. adversarial trial (quick contest of Law) in the main rules.

Mild disagreement, in that the first might be handled in 5e by a Persuasion check vs a static difficulty number, or "the better the roll the better the reaction." The contest is explicitly supported.

Where I would hold GURPS superior to the current DnD system is in the narrative/mechanical coherency in both combat and non-combat systems. The DnD hit point system, the overall use of shields, and a few other things like how HP are recovered partially fuel the OSR. GURPS doesn't have those issues (though it has others) because if you get past the hit, the defense, and the armor, you know you've bruised or drawn blood

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by trooper6 (Post 2035580)

The Dungeon Fantasy line has a lot of space to do things beyond murder-hobo. As does D&D. The thing I find most off putting about DF, is its ad copy. For example the Kickstarter describes the game like this: "GURPS (the Generic Universal RolePlaying System) turns 30 this year, and Dungeon Fantasy focuses its award-winning power on hack ‘n’ slash fantasy roleplaying, where stalwart heroes kick down doors, kill monsters, and take their stuff in order to grow powerful enough to tackle the next quest . . . which naturally features stronger doors, tougher monsters, and better stuff!"

This implies that DF is only about murder-hobo'ing and that if you want any kind of depth of narrative this is not the game for you. Even D&D doesn't do that in its language. The D&D 5e Starter Box describes themselves on the back like so: "The Dungeons & Dragons Starter Set is your gateway to action-packed stories of the imagination. This box contains the essential rules of the game plus everything you need to play heroic characters on perilous adventures in worlds of fantasy."

The way DF is consistently described is actively alienating to people who want something other than murder-hobo'ing...it makes it seem like there will be no epic stories, just disconnected dungeon crawling. And this is not representative of the DF line.

I find the DF line much more interesting and flexible than the ad copy keeps insisting. And I really can't fathom why the ad copy continuously insists that it is mindless doors, monster, and loot with no discussion of character, imagination, epic narratives. It is not necessary and I think it costs potential customers--needlessly.

First of all, I gave my support the project with the money I could ($ 36 to get PDFs). I love GURPS, and I've been playing the game since the third edition (and I have many GURPS DF PDFs here).

That said, I think the basic description of the DF a caricature of the old D&D. It's sound like everthing that many World of Darkness players hate in D&D: action and smashing things without any really roleplaying. I can understand the motivations and I even think such style of play fun from time to time. I've play many "hack 'n slash" games back in the third edition times.

And I know too that we today have many "retroclones' of the old D&D, trying to catch this "old school feeling".

But, for me (yes, it's very personal opinion, obvious), it could be more than that. I'm not saying that DF needs an entire social and economic complexity. The game could be fine with all the basic stuff, yes. I love Kromm's work (and other SJG's works as well), and I respect him as a designer. But, again in my opinion, the presentation could be less caricatured. Even in D&D 4th Edition with all it's controversy, the few descriptions that were in the book at least tried to present something more that Hack N' Slash (even if the system pass the opposite impression).

Just to be clear: is not about the rules. It's about the presentation.

And only saying that because I'm afraid that this image could impact the sales. But, I can be wrong. It's just my opinion.

I insist in saying that I'm not here to offend anyone or trying to be a hater. I'm sorry if my words annoyed someone, it was not my intention.

And sorry for any english mistakes (I'm sure there are plenty of them =P)

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game Discussion Thread

I think it would take little effort to tweak the ad copy to point out that if you want more than hack-n-slash, it is easily supported especially with a introductory product like this. Those of us who already play GURPS know how easy it is to tweak, new customers will not.

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by adm (Post 2035617)

That's my concern. It may be obvious for anyone here, but what about fresh and new players? Those who never play anything or those who lack the experience to see that?

Re: Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game Discussion Thread

Well, this is a nice surprise. After Kromm's blog post earlier, I was expecting a 'Powered by GURPS' DF box set, but I wasn't expecting a Kickstarter.

Definitely backed - I just wish there were more add-ons that were useful for me, someone who already owns a bunch of Dungeon Fantasy PDFs, so that I could help the project even more.

I'd think a 'standard Dungeon Fantasy' setting would have been helpful with this Kickstarter, because then you could sell additional things like maps, and I'd be surprised if a compelling-ish setting couldn't help. A nice, slightly-tongue-in-cheek pastiche setting could be fun, anyways.

Also, I'd have seriously considered hooking Munchkin into this in some way - probably a Dungeon Fantasy (powered by GURPS) edition of Munchkin that could be added as an add-on, making use of art used in these books as well as the classes/items/etc that are present in the box set. It wouldn't play any different from standard Munchkin, obviously, but it'd have a slightly different feel - and it'd need to support each of the DF classes in some way.

Another add-on I'd really like would be miniatures of each of the monsters in the box set, along with minis for each of the classes and races (as well as any allies, if they don't fit in either of those things), but that would require you to hook up with an external company like Reaper Miniatures - and if not minis, then something like the Pathfinder Pawns. Then again, I'm the kind of GM who likes to have a mini or pawn suited for any occasion and am willing to pay way too much to be able to do so.

I'm not sure what other add-ons could be reasonable, other than print versions of the various pre-existing PDFs.

Then again, if the goal of this is to gauge market response as well as (hopefully) make money, I'm not sure that adding all that extra crap is necessary.