When to use Observation skill and not Perception roll?
 

You need 4 poitns in the Observation skill for it to be more effecient than your normal Percaption and so my players quikly decided that it was better to just have a high Perception than any points in Observation.

I can't really figure out when to make them do Observation checks and when to make them do Perception checks.

So when do you require Obeservation, and when is Perception enough?

Re: When to use Observation skill and not Perception roll?
 

I would say perception is for SEEING something, Observation for actually working with the data and making sense out of it.

With perception you may be able to see the enemies, with observation you will be a lot better in telling the distance (for an artillery strike), or making out how many there are.

Perception: You see something in the woods on the other end of the valley.
Observation: In the woods on the other end of the valley there seems to be an ambush. You would say there are about two dozen men. The tholw thing does not lead to riders, but on the left it looks like a good position for some archers.

More details.

Re: When to use Observation skill and not Perception roll?
 

This example is how I have interpreted the rules:

You sit in a bar and roll a successful Perception: You notice a lone man sitting in a booth.

After observing the man (succesful Observation-roll): You notice the man having a metal suitcase.

Maybe followed up by a succesful Body Language roll: You notice he is nervously guarding the suitcase.

This is how I handle the difference between Perception and Observation. You roll Perception roll to notice something you was not aware of.

Observation you roll to gather further information of something you are aware of. This is often followed by an appropiate skill to interpret the information you gather with Observation.

Also from what I understand if you have a higher Observation than Perception you can use Observation instead of Perception.

Re: When to use Observation skill and not Perception roll?
 

Perception is seeing (or hearing, smelling, tasting, or feeling) stuff. Observation is doing so over an extended period, without making it obvious that you're looking (so there's a small element of stealth or acting involved), and pre-processing the data in a useful fashion.

It's a skill for undercover cops, facts-on-the-ground spies, highly professional bank robbers, military scouts, and investigative reporters. (While Per is the characteristic of the pet dog or cat, as much as anything.) Anyone can walk past a bank and notice, with a Per roll, that it's got armed guards; a good Per roll will say how many there were at that moment, and maybe let a character with some knowledge of guns spot what they're packing. Observation skill lets you sit in the cafe opposite with a newspaper, looking like somebody who's waiting for a friend or just killing time - and come back with a fair idea of the guards' duty schedule, patrol route, and state of alertness, all neatly tied up with a ribbon to hand off to the rest of the team.

Re: When to use Observation skill and not Perception roll?
 

thona, but when do you use either? Or do you jsut chose before you roll? Or do you think like Chorpa, that you first use one, then the other?

Chorpa, So you always have to roll twice, doesn't this become a bit much?

And yes, you can use the higher of the the two, but for 10 poitns you can either have 12 per or Observartion 11. For 20 poitns you can have Per 14 or Observation 15.
And Percaption covers all the other senses as well. It's not worth buying observation unless you sometimes need it.

Re: When to use Observation skill and not Perception roll?
 

From what I've gathered,

Player spots something, GM secretly rolls PER,
Player examines an area and wishes to spot something, again GM secretly rolls PER,
Player examines an area to gather information - not to spot the guards but to see how they behave, their shifts etc - again GM secretly rolls against PER-5 or the mighty high observation skill the player has instead of default :)

Cheers...

Re: When to use Observation skill and not Perception roll?
 

Good resume Phil. Worth quoting.

Re: When to use Observation skill and not Perception roll?
 

Hi,
I thought that Observation skill work against skills like camouflage, stealth, shadowing.
And it not!!
We used this skill completely wrong. :o(

So this skill not helps you to Sense (notice) something, but it is good for figure out, what it means.

Re: When to use Observation skill and not Perception roll?
 

Nope, interpreting is IQ, wherther you figuer what something means, where it's going or whatever. It's understanding of a more complex sort.
Er... no. This is just to examples of a really bad perception and good one. You're just seeing better. The two examples are identical, only the level of detail is changed. Imagine you, in that same spot, wherther you have observation or not, you will SEE this, or you will NOT see this. If you perceive the number of horses, you can count them, skill or not, if you cannot perceive them, then observation will do you no good. Seein it's an ambush, though, is adequate use. Good place to position archers too.
Yes, definately.
Nope, this is just perception as well. All your doing is seeing a metal suitcase.
Definately, this is an excelent example of Body Language, to infer psychological and emotional knowledge, from signs given out by posture, movement, sweating, etc... A good perception roll could tell you the man was sweating, but it would tell you it's because of the suitcase. Body Language will.

Yeah, Observation is about long observations, analysing and infering stuff. Like Body Language, but you evaluate situations instead of posture and the like. For instance, an observation roll might let you notice that there's a lot of preocupation about one of the tellers, or that this or that room is particularly cared for. All the while it also garantees that no one figures you are observing. If you were setting up a stake out, to photograph, film, etc.. this is the skill you'd use. It reveals the habits, routine, behaviours without tipping whoever you're observing that you are watching them.

Re: When to use Observation skill and not Perception roll?
 

An example....

Perception:
There's a camp in the end of the valey, between the trees. There are about 20 men and 25 horses. The men are wearing scale armor, and look like it's quite heavy. They are wearing swords and bows, for the most part, some are using spears, and there are shields straped on the horses gears. There are half a dozen tents, and a fire pit in the middle.

Observation:
By the position of the camp, it looks as thought they didn't want to limit their vision in the valley, camping in the entrance probably waiting for something, or otherwise wary of something. The men seem to make an effort to support their armor, yet they do not take it off. It seems that they are tired after many days ride and, try to keep as alert as they can. The number of horses indicates that there are at least half a dozen individuals that are not in sight. They are well armed, and looks like gear apropriate for soldiers, mercenaries or other professional force. The fire pit is billowing a lot of smoke, they probably gathered green or weat wood, wich would indicate that they don't want to venture very far from camp to get good kindling. By the way they patrol, it seems that theyr leader, or whoever they want to protect is in the third tent from the right.