Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

I going through my first GURPS campaign right now and have become stumped while reading through the weapons/skills sections of both Characters and Martial Arts. I hope this is not seen as long-winded, but thorough.

Ultimately i wish to design a fighting style similar to what i can assume Matrim Cauthon uses in the Wheel of Time series: using a Naginata weapon with the Staff skill.

Based off of defaults in Characters, the Naginata is a Polearm, and as such, defaults from Staff skill at -4.

The first question i have is: are the benefits and drawbacks listed by the weapon lists in Characters inherent to the use of the actual weapon or the skill? (e.g if i use a naginata with the staff skill, do i get +2 parry and free action reach change because the skill is staff? -or- if i use a quarterstaff with the polearm skill, do i get +2 parry and free action reach change because the weapon is a staff?)

The confusion comes from two differing perspectives.

1. The first is found under the Staff skill in Characters (p. 208) where it defines the skill (and subsequent +2 parry benefit) by defining the weapon used (balanced pole without striking head).

2. The second is found as an example in Martial Arts on p.50 under Form Mastery where it is implied that (using a spear) it would be advantageous to switch to Staff skill to defend (presumably to gain the +2 parry).

The second example promotes the idea that the +2 parry is innate to the use of the skill despite the actual weapon (a spear) having a striking head. This clashes with the first definition.

On a more practical note, even if my character could use a Naginata with the Staff skill and gain the +2 parry and free action reach change, that default is at -4 for polearms. This negates the bonus to parry while also lowering the skill to hit, giving (in my mind) no benefit over just using the Polearm skill other than the free action reach change.

So...

How am I to understand the Weapon Adaptation perk (Martial Arts p.52) and does this solve my problem?

By my understanding, this would allow me to use a Naginata (for cutting and impaling damage) with the benefits of the Staff skill (+2 parry, free action reach change) without a -4 default for Polearms.

Again, sorry for the essay here. I am trying to consolidate several threads for a more holistic understanding.

Edit: I feel like there are two issues here...

1. Does defaulting from the Staff skill grant staff-like qualities (e.g. +2 parry) or are those inherent in specific weapons (e.g. the quarterstaff)?

-and-

2. Does the Weapon Adaptation (Polearm to Staff) provide the +2 parry to a polearm used with the Staff skill?

Thanks for the responses so far. Just be sure to specify to which issue you are adressing.

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

In the Basic Set you can also strike with the butt end of your Naginata at full Staff skill.

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

I am facing an almost precisely similar problem with a character I'm putting together and am just about exactly as confused as you are, despite having read the books carefully and gone on an archive trawl for this forum. I eagerly look forward to the answers the great minds of the forum can give us.

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

Checking my copy of Low Tech, there are weapons that use the Staff skill and do not give +2 Parry. Duelling Polearm is among them, with 0U Parry when swung and 0 Parry when thrusting. It also has [18] which says it's the butt of a two-yard polearm (list includes naginata) used as a staff.

On that basis I would assume no bonus to Parry from using Weapon Adaptation, because the +2 Parry is not universal. One could argue it is the skill and not the weapon… but other weapons on the list have +2 Parry when used with the Staff skill (not when used with Two-Handed Sword for quarterstaff or Broadsword for jo staff), and I doubt they are intended to give +4 total.

In essence, I would only give the +2 Parry if both the skill and weapon are a staff (although I would count spears as a staff unless stabbing).

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

Under Weapon Adaptation it says, "This lets you wield the weapons covered by one weapon skill using a different skill and its techniques, with all the benefits and drawbacks of that skill, provided the replacement skill defaults to the usual one at no worse than -4 and uses the same number of hands (emphasis added)."

Perhaps I just don't know what this perk does.

What are the benefits and drawbacks that are gained from the replacement skill?

What remains from the replaced skill/weapon?

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

It's simple enough: although the rules never actually say so that I can tell, a spear is balanced exactly the same as a staff and simply can be used as one.

This isn't true of polearms.

The staff parry bonus is part of the stat-line. Not all Staff skill stat-lines get it, and using a Staff with another skill doesn't either (see Two-Handed Sword).

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

The +2 to parry is still in the definition of the skill:

"Staff (DX/Average): Any long, balanced pole without a striking head. This skill makes good use of the staff’s extensive parrying surface when defending, giving +2 to your Parry score. Defaults: Polearm-4 or Spear-2." (Basic Set, Characters, page 208).

And I second Bearit's question. If the perk doesn't give this +2 for polearms, what benefit and drawback does it give for them?

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

Here it specifically nominates the staff, not any shaft used a pole.

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

Is the pole of a polearm significantly different from that of a staff?
If so, I'll need to use the weapon modification rules in order to add a spear/polearm head to an actual staff (it's in MA).

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

Yes, on account of having a big thing on the end...

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

I'm drawing a complete bank on the terminology but many polearm heads partially encased a fair bit of the shaft. More so with heavier heads.

Personally as a GM I allowed the use of a spear with the staff skill with a change of grip action. But I ruled most polearms where too heavy for the same treatment and only allowed it with the lighter polearm provided the user had specific training such as a martial art. The was a perk from memory that covered changing grips. (Away from books) not sure if it's a published perk though

How you held the weapon was the defining condition.

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

Yes as Kromm has stated the Unbalanced (+0U) part makes a difference. Only balanced polearms used with the Staff skill get the +2

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

Though Kromm once did approve of Iceland's house rule for staff fighters that might interest you.

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

I love the conversation going on right now. It seems the general consensus considers the intention of the rules to provide the +2 parry bonus when only using a "balanced" pole weapon with the Staff skill. But please do continue to share your opinions.

I am interested in hearing your thoughts on the perk Weapon Adaptation (Polearm to Staff) (Martial Arts p. 52). The book reads:

Each adaptation is a separate perk; e.g., Weapon Adaptation (Shortsword to Smallsword) lets you use the Smallsword skill to fight when equipped with a Shortsword weapon – complete with fencing parries, superior retreats, and encumbrance penalties.

It seems to me that just as a shortsword gains the fencing capabilities listed under the Smallsword skill, so too does a polearm gain the parrying capabilities listed under the Staff skill (i.e. +2 parry).

This also leads to the question of--does anything else transfer over? Are there new damage types and amounts, or do you use the original ones? Are there new Reach restrictions? Essentially: what is innate to the weapon, and what is innate to the skill?

What are your thoughts on this?

Thanks for your replies so far!

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

Note that Kromm allows using the Staff skill with a Bill-head on a Staff staff:

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

The problem is with using that to add +2 to parry to weapon that doesn't have +2 in it's listed parry stat, is by the same argument any weapons that can be used with the staff skill and has +2 in listed parry stat would also get +2 on top of that (.e +4).

It would also disallow anything with an striking head from being used with staff skill and we know that's not the case.

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

You know that Weapon Adaptation allows, say, wielding a weapon in Fencing mode even though the weapon doesn't have a 0F parry in its line, right?
When a benefit or drawback is part of the skill and not part of the weapon, then Weapon Adaptation grants the benefit by wielding a weapon with the chosen skill.

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

This is not specified, and given the number of times it's been asked without being officially clarified I suspect it never will be. Ask the GM.

I find Weapon Adaptation to be much clearer if you ignore the way it is written and interpret it as "Adds a line to the Weapon Table under the extended skill allowing it to be used with some weapon not ordinarily covered". This new line can be borrowed from a line that already exists under another skill, but does not have to be, and can be edited if it is. Yes this requires the GM to determine all the specifics rather than providing some deterministic mechanism for the rules lawyers, but personally I consider that a positive feature.

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

To me, an interpretation of the rules should be in accordance with the intention behind the rule. My post is an example of the traps related to the so called "RAW" attitude.

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

That might tell us that making a Combination Weapon out of a staff and a spearhead while still wielding the blasted thing with Staff rather than Spear would be unreasonable- but it doesn't help us answer the broader point of whether the parry bonus for staffs is inherent in the statline of the weapon or the description of the skill, and what effect Form Mastery is supposed to have. The rules text is sufficiently ambiguous that it's difficult to discern the intent.

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

"This skill makes good use of the staff’s extensive parrying surface when defending, giving +2 to your Parry score."
A (reasonable) combination weapon built with a staff has a no less extensive parrying surface than a staff.

Also, I was being slightly sarcastic with my reference to the combination weapons because I wanted to point out that sharp cutoff points tend to produce results that are, at best, weird.

Anyway, when I PMed Kromm back in the day about various Staff-related things, he said that answers should be evident from the rules. The rules say the skill gives a parry bonus, that Weapon Adaptation lets one enjoy the benefits of a specific skill, and Kromm said it's possible to wield a staff with a bill hook with the Staff skill.

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

This debate is really interesting. I don't know Martial Arts rules enough to discuss about each precise point; all what I can say is what I have already said above. But the counter-arguments are very good too: a pole arm is unbalanced, and it should make a difference ...

Now, what about reality? Let's see kobudo ...

http://www.oshukai.fr/kobudo-okinawa...obudo-dokinawa
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawan_kobud%C5%8D

In kobudo, we learn the bo (quarter staff). It is well simulated in GURPS rules with its +2 to parry, because of his length (parrying surface), but also because of its incredible parry techniques: you can parry gedan (down) while attacking jodan (up) at the same time. The bo can also be used like a spear (several thrusting attack techniques). It is very effective, especially to the foot, the knee or the throat. And the Thrust line of the weapon does the job very well ...

We also learn the nunti bo (it is like a spear with a hook). It is almost as balanced as a bo and many techniques are similar with bo techniques. Thanks to the Weapon Adaptation Perk, it can be used with the Staff skill, or with the Hook skill (every one does agree on that, if I understood things well). Here again, GURPS do the job very well ...

Now, we also learn the eku (paddle). It is a quite heavy weapon, very close from a pole arm. My master says that if it is well sharpened and if you hit your foe strongly enough, you can behead him. Because of its weight, handling such a weapon requires a lot of training. But a lot of techniques are still very close from the bo, especially the parry techniques.

So, would the Weapon Adaptation Perk be sufficient to get the +2 to parry?

Sadly, I'm not experienced enough to answer this question. I didn't learn the eku yet. Neither the nunti bo. All what I know (a bit - only 2 years of training) is the bo (plus the sai and the tonfa, but they are very different) ... Now, when I watch my master or the black belts training with the eku, I see techniques that I also do with the bo.

I don't know if that can help to answer the question, but it is the only input I can do ...

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

There is no Hook skill. There's a Hook technique, which is likely relevant, but doesn't replace an underlying skill to use the weapon the hook is a part of.

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

OK. Thanks for the correction.

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

Look at the statlines for the Two-Handed Sword skill. The same quarterstaff item is there with -1 to Thrust damage and no +2 to Parry.

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

Which sounds to mean that it belongs to the skill, not to the weapon.

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

What happens if you have a variable polearm ? Would you have to separate skills to wield the weapon effectively ?

Playing an 2nd Edition Oriental AD&D Campaign around 20 years ago , another player had a all metal staff weapon that was a sort of 'Swiss Army Polearm' , in that he could decide what configuration he wanted . Mainly Eastern weapons like Monk's Spade , Muck Rake , Naginata etc - but a few Western weapon's he'd observed from travelers at Ports & trade centres like Billhook , Pike , Glaive & Halberd - as well as a humanoid weapon based on the Vulcan Lirpas from Star Trek !
While his Warrior wasn't allowed to specialise in this item - apart from in Monk's Spade mode , which he had already - but with a +2 bonus specialising wasn't really needed . The roleplaying & combat tactic opportunities this polearm presented was fantastic .

How would an item like this work in GURPS ?

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

The Rod of Lordly Might is archtypical DnD magical item like that

and yes you would need speret skills, though most of them would fall under Polearm skill.

However Weapon Bond and Weapon Master(single weapon) can be the variable weapon and will apply to what ever skill you need to use that weapon.

This is the same case as the Bastard sword and Katana that needs both Two-weapon sword and Broadsword skills if you want to use them both ways.

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

I would probably just say that polearms with a U parry become polearms with +2U parries when wielded with Staff.

For my own houserules I reduced a lot of skill clutter by just merging Spear and Staff into a single skill and allowing some polearms to be used with Sword or Hafted as appropriate at no penalty, Staff Grip being found on all weapons with sufficiently long handles as an option that improves the Parry score while reducing Reach and Damage.

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

Except that would be a house rule

Defense Bonus for Staff questions (4e)

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

OK for the house rule.

But the description of the naginata really sounds strange...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naginata

Having said that, I have to admit that I never trained to use a naginata (and didn't see how it is handled).

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

The Naginata is +0U when used used as a swung weapon due to length, however used a Reach 2 thrusting weapon it is only +0

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

Yes but you can't double up on 0F you can double up on +2 so it's not an equal comparison.

Also there is no such thing as a fencing skill (unlike the staff skill) there are melee skills that include fencing weapons.

moreover weapon adaption is not what we're talking about here, we're talking weapons that appear under two skill listings. Which is is kind of inbuilt weapon adaption but with specific stats for each skill, and in general the specific trumps the general.

However we can test the point easily. Staff skill has several weapons with +2 in their listed parry characteristic, and some with 0 or 0U, do you add a blanket +2 to parry on top of all of them?

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

We know the answer to this question:

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

OK so to be clear you give every weapon listed under Staff skill a +2 to parry unless it has U in it's parry stat? So a quarter staff / long staff / Jo all parry at a total +4 at your table?

Also that Kromm quote is a bit odd because it infers* that the only reason staff weapons with 'U' aren't +2 is because they have the 'U'. So what about weapons listed under staff that are just 0?


*or I actually think you over inferring from it. I think his point is just about 'Unbalanced' and your broadening it out to all weapons.

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

Heck NO if there under the staff skill listing on the table then the effects of the staff skill is already refected in their parry stat.

just like when the Sai when listed under the Jitte/Sai skill [Martial arts p.227] is listed at "+0" but when the Sai is listed under the Main-Gauche skill [p.228] is listed as "+0F"

hence why the nagaita while listed under the staff skill isn't "+2U" but "+0U" because it an unbalanced weapon but can be used with the Staff skill to let use cr damage with it

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

I go that the principle that the general rule applies unless a specific one overrides it.
I.e. a weapon wielded with the Staff skill enjoys the benefits of the Staff skill unless stated otherwise. Such 'stated otherwise' cases can be weapons with a U-Parry, or weapons whose statline for Staff overrides the parry modifier.

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

Yep that's pretty much how I see it

So you do have quarterstaffs / Jo etc with +4 to parry?

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

Very differently than a staff. :P


Somewhat between the way Dueling Halberds and Long Spears are used (meaning in some modes of attack/defense a naginata is used like a heavier long spear and in some like a lighter halberd).

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

Why +4? You seem to be offering to apply the general and the specific example of the rule twice. Don't do it twice.

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

Yep hence my point about applying the +2 mentioned in the listing for staff skill to all weapons listed in staff skill (except that those with U, as per the Kromm Klarification you cited)?

You intimated that this is correct (and that you do so), I pointed out that that would mean adding +2 to al those with +2 in their listings, hence +4.

As I said in my first post on this, that is indeed double dipping.

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

I said to add it to all such skills, not to add it twice. The +2 listed in the Staff-skill part of the weapon table is the same instance of the bonus as the +2 added by the skill. It's a case of a specific rule restating a general rule, doing the same thing.
Perhaps we misunderstood each other's wordings, resulting in the double-dip misinterpretation between us.

Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 

Quite likely!

Cheers

TD