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-   -   Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation (https://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=141294)

(E) 01-28-2016 04:41 AM
Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 
I'm drawing a complete bank on the terminology but many polearm heads partially encased a fair bit of the shaft. More so with heavier heads.

Personally as a GM I allowed the use of a spear with the staff skill with a change of grip action. But I ruled most polearms where too heavy for the same treatment and only allowed it with the lighter polearm provided the user had specific training such as a martial art. The was a perk from memory that covered changing grips. (Away from books) not sure if it's a published perk though

How you held the weapon was the defining condition.

roguebfl 01-28-2016 05:02 AM
Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh (Post 1974350)
Is the pole of a polearm significantly different from that of a staff?
If so, I'll need to use the weapon modification rules in order to add a spear/polearm head to an actual staff (it's in MA).
Yes as Kromm has stated the Unbalanced (+0U) part makes a difference. Only balanced polearms used with the Staff skill get the +2

roguebfl 01-28-2016 05:22 AM
Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 
Though Kromm once did approve of Iceland's house rule for staff fighters that might interest you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm (Post 1030411)
I somewhat like the idea of a sliding +2 bonus: Base damage is unmodified swing or thrust crushing, base Parry is 0, and you get +2 – total – to allocate between damage and Parry at the start of each turn. This would reflect various transitional grips, and be independent of whether you selected All-Out Attack, Committed Attack, Attack, Defensive Attack, or All-Out Defense, which would give all their usual bonuses and penalties . . . although naturally, someone who planned to pick All-Out Attack (Strong) or All-Out Defense (Increased Parry) would lump the +2 into damage or Parry, respectively. It would also be independent of combat options. Thus, a staff fighter could get the listed damage with no special Parry bonus, the listed Parry with weak damage, or something in between, and the justification for this extra level of trim would be the relative ease with which one can adjust staff grips.

bearit 01-28-2016 05:46 AM
Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 
I love the conversation going on right now. It seems the general consensus considers the intention of the rules to provide the +2 parry bonus when only using a "balanced" pole weapon with the Staff skill. But please do continue to share your opinions.

I am interested in hearing your thoughts on the perk Weapon Adaptation (Polearm to Staff) (Martial Arts p. 52). The book reads:
Each adaptation is a separate perk; e.g., Weapon Adaptation (Shortsword to Smallsword) lets you use the Smallsword skill to fight when equipped with a Shortsword weapon – complete with fencing parries, superior retreats, and encumbrance penalties.
It seems to me that just as a shortsword gains the fencing capabilities listed under the Smallsword skill, so too does a polearm gain the parrying capabilities listed under the Staff skill (i.e. +2 parry).

This also leads to the question of--does anything else transfer over? Are there new damage types and amounts, or do you use the original ones? Are there new Reach restrictions? Essentially: what is innate to the weapon, and what is innate to the skill?

What are your thoughts on this?

Thanks for your replies so far!

vicky_molokh 01-28-2016 05:55 AM
Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 
Note that Kromm allows using the Staff skill with a Bill-head on a Staff staff:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm (Post 1912560)
GURPS Martial Arts, p. 74: "You can learn [Hook] for any Melee Weapon skill, but you’ll need a suitable weapon to use it."

GURPS Martial Arts, p. 214 (or GURPS Low-Tech Companion 2, p. 14): "Any swung weapon [...] can have a small hook to permit use of the Hook technique."

A quarterstaff is a swung weapon, so it can have a hook for +$25 and negligible weight. If you want to go nuts and give it a full-on bill head for +$90 ($100 for dueling bill minus $10 for quarterstaff) and +2 lbs. (6 lbs. for dueling bill minus 4 lbs. for quarterstaff), then you've gone above and beyond the call of duty. Go ahead and learn Hook (Staff) to wield it.

Tomsdad 01-28-2016 07:09 AM
Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gollum (Post 1974320)
The +2 to parry is still in the definition of the skill:
"Staff (DX/Average): Any long, balanced pole without a striking head. This skill makes good use of the staff’s extensive parrying surface when defending, giving +2 to your Parry score. Defaults: Polearm-4 or Spear-2." (Basic Set, Characters, page 208).
And I second Bearit's question. If the perk doesn't give this +2 for polearms, what benefit and drawback does it give for them?
The problem is with using that to add +2 to parry to weapon that doesn't have +2 in it's listed parry stat, is by the same argument any weapons that can be used with the staff skill and has +2 in listed parry stat would also get +2 on top of that (.e +4).

It would also disallow anything with an striking head from being used with staff skill and we know that's not the case.

vicky_molokh 01-28-2016 08:15 AM
Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad (Post 1974369)
The problem is with using that to add +2 to parry to weapon that doesn't have +2 in it's listed parry stat, is by the same argument any weapons that can be used with the staff skill and has +2 in listed parry stat would also get +2 on top of that (.e +4).

It would also disallow anything with an striking head from being used with staff skill and we know that's not the case.
You know that Weapon Adaptation allows, say, wielding a weapon in Fencing mode even though the weapon doesn't have a 0F parry in its line, right?
When a benefit or drawback is part of the skill and not part of the weapon, then Weapon Adaptation grants the benefit by wielding a weapon with the chosen skill.

malloyd 01-28-2016 09:15 AM
Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bearit (Post 1974312)

What are the benefits and drawbacks that are gained from the replacement skill?

What remains from the replaced skill/weapon?
This is not specified, and given the number of times it's been asked without being officially clarified I suspect it never will be. Ask the GM.

I find Weapon Adaptation to be much clearer if you ignore the way it is written and interpret it as "Adds a line to the Weapon Table under the extended skill allowing it to be used with some weapon not ordinarily covered". This new line can be borrowed from a line that already exists under another skill, but does not have to be, and can be edited if it is. Yes this requires the GM to determine all the specifics rather than providing some deterministic mechanism for the rules lawyers, but personally I consider that a positive feature.

Ji ji 01-28-2016 10:01 AM
Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh (Post 1974350)
Is the pole of a polearm significantly different from that of a staff?
If so, I'll need to use the weapon modification rules in order to add a spear/polearm head to an actual staff (it's in MA).
To me, an interpretation of the rules should be in accordance with the intention behind the rule. My post is an example of the traps related to the so called "RAW" attitude.

Toptomcat 01-28-2016 10:13 AM
Re: Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ji ji (Post 1974395)
To me, an interpretation of the rules should be in accordance with the intention behind the rule. My post is an example of the traps related to the so called "RAW" attitude.
That might tell us that making a Combination Weapon out of a staff and a spearhead while still wielding the blasted thing with Staff rather than Spear would be unreasonable- but it doesn't help us answer the broader point of whether the parry bonus for staffs is inherent in the statline of the weapon or the description of the skill, and what effect Form Mastery is supposed to have. The rules text is sufficiently ambiguous that it's difficult to discern the intent.


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