Mind Control Question
 

I watched the "Jessica Jones" series recently with Kilgrave. Granted he's sort of in the unstoppable mind control category that just doesn't work in a game. Until Jessica, it's as if nobody ever ever rolled a critical success or he ever fumbled (in game terms, of course). That's fine for a story but it doesn't work in a game.

But it got me to looking at the new (4e) version of Mind Control. Now, I really haven't gamed since the 4e stuff came out so I've read it but haven't explored it in detail. However, the impression I get is that Mind Control in the new rules is, well, pretty useless. What I mean is that, reading the advantage, it is basically the Mind Controller rolling his IQ versus the Will (IQ + Will) of the target. It would seem that, in most situations against another player or significant NPC, the Mind Controller is going to have way less than a 50-50 chance of having any effect. In my experience, players like to have resistance to things like mind control and it's far cheaper than buying IQ. Plus you've got the rule of 20 though people can still buy Mind Shield.

I was wondering if this is fairly accurate or are there a lot of qualifiers and boosts to mind control that I don't know about?

Thanks in advance. It's really just an academic question. While I don't get much chance to roleplay anymore, I'm still fascinated with it.

Re: Mind Control Question
 

You can add Reliable to if you like, also Powers and GURPS Psionics have additional modifiiers. Including one where there not Immune if you crit fail.

Re: Mind Control Question
 

Not against IQ+Will, just against Will. That will usually be equal to IQ, of course. A dedicated mind controller won't have a lower IQ then most targets.

Re: Mind Control Question
 

Will =/= Will + IQ. Will is, by default, equal to IQ unless bought up or down from IQ with character points.


The average person has both IQ and Will at 10, so it is exactly a 50-50 chance assuming average people.

That's because buying up IQ for 20 points increases the effective skill level of about 180 skills, not counting the 800 magic spells potentially available, not to mention increasing Perception and Will, plus giving better resistant to mental stun and a variety of other mental effects. So of course, Resistant to Mind Control is cheaper.

The rule of 20 is for Spells, iirc. IDHMBWM. But the general idea is that there's still a chance to defend. If you really want to ignore Mind Shield, buy Cosmic for your Mind Control.

Anything that lowers IQ or Will helps the mind controller break through resistance. If the GM allows Skills for Everyone from Powers, you can also buy up your skill with Mind Control as a Hard IQ-based skill. Lastly, see Possessions Under Control from Alternate Gurps IV for a more detailed treatment of Possession and a way to apply the rules to mind reading and mind control. In the lattermost, a common trick is to apply irritating or incapacitating conditions to the subject via mental control points. Of course, you can always use afflictions or magic for that, too.

Re: Mind Control Question
 

Yeeeah. No. Even assuming that you were just using Characters and nothing else, a mind controller like Kilgrave would certainly have a +4 on his roll from a talent and by dumping his entire point total into maximising his IQ, he'd surely overwhelm the defenses of a comparable point-total character who can actually do other things. That's the advantage of being a one-trick pony. Nor is the Rule of 20 relevant. That only affects statistics for the purpose of calculating default rolls. An IQ mind control roll is not a default roll.

Of course being a mind controlling one trick pony with a big point budget produces bizarre results like IQ 40 mind controllers, so you need to look to Powers to find "based on skill" and "reliable"

Re: Mind Control Question
 

If it's just a matter of the cost of buying things up, then you could base Mind Control on Will. Or base it on a an IQ/H skill, as is done in Psionic Powers. (That will be cheaper than Will.)

The Rule of 20 (B173) is for skill defaults (which are based on a max of 20 if the base attribute is higher).

The Rule of 16 (B349) is for resistance rolls, and limits the attacker's effective skill to the max of the defender's resistance or 16. The text says "supernatural attacks" and cites both magic and psi (along with "etc") for context, so it would clearly apply to Mind Control of Kilgrave's sort.

Re: Mind Control Question
 

Of course a 50-50 chance means success in short order until you get punched out in the first couple of seconds.

Re: Mind Control Question
 

Agreed. It does seem to be fairly absolute. However, there is a way to get that sort of control if you've got the points for it.

The Rule of 20 for defaults doesn't come into this at all. The Rule of 16, however, does. What makes Kilgrave dangerous is not that he's trying to affect PCs - that's something that anyone would expect - no, he uses NPCs as weapons, shields, and general throwaway cardboard people. Kilgrave knows that the best way to attack others is through there morality and personal held beliefs. He's essentially a master manipulator who also just happens to have bloody mind control. That's a horrific combination.

Again, don't attack the PCs. Attack the NPCs in the world. If they are any kind of hero then this will affect them worse than if they themselves were attacked. If they're not, then still use people - mob them with everyday joes - eventually the dice will result in a critical and it will be ugly.

Overall, were I building Kilgrave's powers from the show I'd do something like...


Kilgrave Control: Mind Control (Accessibility, Commands will be followed literally, -10%; Based on Lower of IQ or Will, +40%; Based on Will, Own Roll, +20%; Cosmic, No Rule of 16, +50%; Cosmic, Irresistible Attack, +300%; Decreased Immunity 3, +150%; Extended Duration, 300x, +100%; Fixed Margin, +0%; Hearing-Based, -20%; Independent, +70%; Long-Range 1, +50%; Nuisance Effect, Trauma and a successful Will roll make subject immune*, -5%; Rationalization, +20%; Reliable 10, +50%; Smell-Based, -20%) [428]. Notes: So basically a subject needs to hear him and inhale the virus (that's why they were safe when he was in the hermetically sealed room). He didn't seem to take Range penalties or have the usual 24 hour immunity for retrying to give a order- as long as you could smell and hear him he could give you a command and then you'd make a roll against the lower of IQ or Will vs. his Will+10. Fail and you do what he says. Since it's described as being a virus - Resistance to Disease, Sickness, or Metabolic Hazards would add their usual bonus. Immunity would add +14 and guarantee that you couldn't be "Kilgraved" even though normally Irresistible Attack would blast through them. 458 points.
* As a set of loose guidelines, follow those found under Extra Effort, p. B357.

You add that to Kilgrave's Will, which was described as "iron" by the surgeon who operated on him (while he was awake mind you!) and you're good to go. I'd pin his Will at at least 16 and probably an 18 or 20. It's why no one can resist him usually - he's rolling at 26 or higher and gets to ignore mental shields. That's without Talent (he may not have one - he seems like a one-trick pony).

Re: Mind Control Question
 

Based on Lower of IQ or Will, +40%; Since this is a Virus, you could throw in HT; "Based on Lower of IQ, Will, or HT" +60%

Cosmic, Irresistible Attack, +300%; Why are you adding this? It looks like a 0-point feature to say mind shields don't protect but resistance to Disease, Sickness, or Metabolic Hazards do protect.


Why would Immunity only grant +14?

If it's a power then it could be skill based allowing him to buy up effective skills and he could have power talent further boosting those numbers.

Re: Mind Control Question
 

It's not cosmic because J Jones resists it.

It is an HT attack because it is pheromones.

Of course it can be adapted to a psi attack.

Also the attacker must speak directly to the victim.

Moreover the skill is based on margins of success and therefore it should not be limited to the rule of 16.

Now for TV the cinematic effect of the victim killing themselves is not so geat in a game. Therefore resistance rolls could have bonuses against taking their own lives.

Re: Mind Control Question
 

Thanks to all of you. There are obviously a lot of "toys" to play with in 4e I didn't know about. I also agree that Kilgrave's biggest advantage is that he is an NPC villain and a psychotic one at that who has no qualms about throwing people in front of trains literally and making them attack the heroes. Basically, he can and will use his power in a way that a player-character can't (or darn well better not).

Of course, since we only see him use his power against normals and against two metahumans and one of the two develops an "immunity", we don't really know what would happen if he tried it on someone like Thor or Captain America with that level of will or other factors. To be sure, some of the feeling that his power is unstoppable comes from that.

But these are some good ideas of how to handle his power. Definitely, if this were ever brought into a game rather than being just an academic task of making him up for the fun of it, there would need to be major penalties for trying to make people do things totally against their principles or kill themselves. It might be okay if he does that to incidental characters as a plot device power but definitely not against the PCs or any major character.

Re: Mind Control Question
 

I'd appreciate some clarification on what some of these mean.

Decreased Immunity 3, +150%

Does this mean the target receives 3 less than the bonus listed for "Resistant"? Would this have any effect on "Immunity"?

Fixed Margin.

Is this a reference to the fact that his power always has a set time it lasts rather than a variable one? (Though it actually does vary from 10-12 hours).

I would say his range, before the increase at the end of the story, was maybe 10-20 yards. They spoke of his gaining a range of 50-100 yards as a massive increase.

Rationalization. +20%

Not sure what that refers to.

Anyway, thanks for helping.

Re: Mind Control Question
 

This is a possibility, but I felt it was more a mental component than a combination of a physical and mental one. Again, Kilgrave is supposed to have a will of iron so if he ever comes up against a HT 20 mutant or whatever he's gonna have as much of a problem if he faced off against Professor X - that seems odd to me.

Because it's clear the writers intended for his character to blast through whatever defenses his targets might have. I agree that swapping mind shields and the like is a -0% feature to have the ability be affected by physical resistances. The more I think about this, the more I think that perhaps the virus part is just fluff and I'm reading into it. So yeah, he sheds a virus and it gets into your brain and that's why he can give you verbal commands. That's it. The virus itself might be "harmless" so it likely doesn't set off a immune response.


Normally those with Immunity would just shrug off something like this, but Zombies suggests that an Immunity can provide some measure of protection if one has to make a roll.

Yes. That's possible, but a highly optional rule. If it were me I'd just off a power perk that acts as a Talent for one ability using the Smooth Talent costs from Power-Ups 3.

Who if she failed to resist would result in a very boring plot. No, the way the writers wrote Kilgrave he's supposed to be an unstoppable force. Irresistible Attack represents that.

No entirely, there is a verbal component to it that requires you hear and smell the target. So that's a toss up. You're free to create your own, but this is my interpretation of an ability presented in a TV show and how it could be made gameable.


A case could be made to add Hearing-Based, Reversed (-20%), but if the target must hear you in the first place that seems a bit of crockery. No, I stick by needing just hearing-based for this.

That's what "Cosmic, No Rule of 16" is for. Otherwise Rule of 16 always applies regardless of whether it's skill-based on not. Go reread the the box on p. B349.

Honestly, I'll probably use it at one point in my Aeon supers campaign, but doubtfully as a totally written.

Sure!

Normally, if you successful resist Mind Control you get a 24 hours immunity to that controller. Kilgrave appears to have no such waiting period. See p. 21 of Psionic Powers.

Correct Fixed Margin (Which should be Fixed DURATION) means regardless of how well you rolled or how bad the duration is always the same. Add Extended Duration to increase the length of that time. In Kilgrave's case about 10 to 12 hours. So to turn three minutes (normal time of one minute per point of margin) into 12 hours you need EXtended Duration 300x. See p. 21 of Psionic Powers.

This something I forgot last night. You'd need to add Area Effect 4 (+200%) and Selective Area (+20%) so he can control mobs of people at once - which is does do on a few occasions.


See p. 15 of Psionic Powers. Basically, the target remembers wht he did, but did it because he thought he wanted to vs. outside influence.

Sure. :-)

Re: Mind Control Question
 

Rationalization helps him here as the victom tries to come up with justification to obey the commands.
In the comics he was originally a Daredevil enemy but he pretty much fought everyone at one time or another.
Dr. Doom was immune because of his Will.
Spiderwoman because she had a master telepath change her brains response.
Iron Man when prepared for it sealed his armor.
Nova and others could pull that trick to and the Corrupter who took over Thor was a similar villain.
Wonder Man was also immune because hes pretty much an energy being.

Re: Mind Control Question
 

If he faced off against Thor or the Hulk, I would expect him to have problems, but without seeing that fight we can't know, but if it's described as a virus it's a reasonable assumption. And it might be the reason Jessica became immune, she's got a pretty high HT.

An airtight room stops it.

Well that's your interpretation, we only see him face off against normal people and two supers, one that becomes immune and the other who's only under his influence for a short while.



It's used as standard in the GURPS psionics series

Re: Mind Control Question
 

Maybe. Wanda got into Banner's head and Thor's too and Kilgrave is easily in her range.

An airtight, soundproof room stops it.

Yup. It sure is. :-) But the way Kilgrave is written makes it seem like he is an unstoppable force. A force that two very strong-minded people could not resist even with their enhanced biology.

Yes, but that's psionics, this is supers. PK has already stated if a superpowers system was ever done he'd prefer a different approach to the one he took in Psionic Powers. Were I doing it (and I've thought about it), I'd create a system to translate powers as skills, have a static "power" attribute, and then create a list of modifiers to "stunt" your power to.

TL;DR Someone asked for opinions on how Kilgrave's power was written up I gave it. I spent part of my Christmas Day answering the question. This is how I would do it. It's expensive, but it should be. It's an "I win button" in most cases.

Re: Mind Control Question
 

A large part of the expense comes from the +300% Cosmic Irresistible, but we don't see him go up against anyone who has a mind shield or anything that the Cosmic Irresistible would actually help with, so you could drop that and have pretty much the same effect.

Re: Mind Control Question
 

This is a fair point - but again, the way the story is constructed implies (to me at least) that the writers meant that Kilgrave should be able to affect just about anyone he comes in contact with. That's why I threw the Cosmic up there. Since Kilgrave is dead now it's doubtful we'll ever see him go up against someone like the Hulk, Thor, or Cap (who I think probably has the highest Will).

Re: Mind Control Question
 

Based on what everyone has said, this is what I've come up with so far.

Mind Control
(Area Effect 4. +200%;
Based on lowest of IQ, Will or HT (Virus-based). +60%;
Based on his own Will. +20%;
Cosmic: No Rule of 16. +50%;
Decreased Immunity 3. +150%;
Extended Duration: x300. +100%;
Fixed Margin. 0%;
Increased Range x2. +10%;
Independent. +70%;
Rationalization. +20%;
Reliable 10. +50%;
Selective Area. +20%;
Accessibility: Commands will be followed literally (which allows some leeway for a clever target). -10%;
Emanation. -20%;
Hearing-Based. -20%;
Nuisance Effect: Extreme trauma of doing something way against their principles or survival and a successful Will roll will make the subject immune. -5%;
Smell-Based. -20%

[388 pts.]

Notes: Ignores Mind Shields is a Zero points Feature because, as a tradeoff, Resistance to Disease and/ or Metabolic Hazards gives a resistance bonus as listed under “Resistant” and either Immunity to Disease or Immunity to Metabolic Hazards gives complete immunity to his power. Being virus-based and not telepathic in nature, it is a reasonable assumption that a mind shield would not protect;

Selective Area is because he can make it clear he is ordering one person to do something. Everyone who hears him does not have to do it unless it is clear he was speaking to everyone.

I would think Kilgrave has a very high Will considering he stayed awake through hours of surgery with nothing killing the pain. His effective Mind Control roll could literally be 30. It could be combined with a huge level of Luck to explain why he never misses a roll (or maybe he does and immediately tries again since people don't have the 24 hour immunity).

I may go ahead and try to make up the whole character sheet. But not tonight. :)

Re: Mind Control Question
 

Is it in one of the power ups for rule of 17 etc

Iirc it was a perk.

Re: Mind Control Question
 

The enhancement - which is what I was referencing - is "Cosmic, No Rule of 16" and is in GURPS Psionic Campaigns, p. 26

Re: Mind Control Question
 

I think it needs Reduced Time is in order as well. He doesn't seem to take any Concentrate maneuvers and uses his powers pretty effortlessly. There might also be Always On limitation, but I don't think it should be worth any points in this case.

Re: Mind Control Question
 

True. If we were talking about a hero with the same powers, it could be Always on: social. -10% for always having to be careful of how he words everything, always having a strange pause to everything he says while he thinks about it and makes sure it isn't telling somebody to do something. But for Kilgrave, Always on really isn't a limitation even though he mentioned being careful how he words things. He kills without remorse so not very limiting for him.

Re: Mind Control Question
 

It's still limiting in how society will react to him. From a PC perspective, it's limiting.

Re: Mind Control Question
 

It would also eventually out Him as a "super" : sooner or later He would casually manipulate folk in an obvious manner in a location under remote surveillance were He not careful .

Re: Mind Control Question
 

In a way, I regret that they probably won't have him return. Main villains are pretty much one-shots in the MCU. Understandable but I'd love to see S.H.I.E.L.D. encounter him and prep a defense which should really be easy and he'd have no chance unless he had total surprise. I'd love to see if Thor or Cap or even DD could resist him.

He was presented as sort of having almost the vampire advantage. In other words, the biggest advantage of a vampire is that nobody believes they exist. Kilgrave's biggest advantage was that, in spite of alien invasions, gods and monsters, people unfathomably won't buy the existence of a mind controller.

Re: Mind Control Question
 

(fnorded)
Unless they're adding some unique new physical powers, you can probably leave off "probably" there. :)

Canonically, Daredevil can resist the Purple Man. Something about how his senses are wired differently from other people.

In game terms, that would be the GM declaring that certain powers don't exist (at least including Mind Control and, according to Agents of SHIELD, Precognition), and then letting Kilgrave's player take a special 100-point Unusual Background (Ha-ha, I'm the Exception to the Rules!).

Re: Mind Control Question
 

I don't think they'll ever have him return. It would be repetitive to do it in the Netflix stuff and the Netflix stuff is sooooo dark, grim and gritty that I doubt they'll ever bring any of it into the movies or Agents of Shield.

I liked that first DD story with the Purple Man. I think I read it as a kid and just reread it. I smiled at one of the metaphors Stan Lee used. To Matt's and Foggy's secretary, something along the lines of: "You're very beautiful and I have need of a- secretary. You will accompany me and- take dictation." Perfect, almost 1960's Batman way of disguising something to be acceptable to show to 8-10 year olds.

In that first story, it was purely how strong willed DD was though it was probably retconned later to be something about how his senses work.Then again, Netflix DD and Kilgrave are different characters.