Total Cyborg, Life Support System, and how GURPS deal whith it
 

I have a question about how exactly GURPS can emulate the relationship between the cyborg brain with it's Life Support System and the rest of the body.

A brain needs nutrients, oxygen and other things do survive. In science fiction, a total cyborg have a brain case with Life Support System. But in some fictions, they don't give us much detail about. Others, like the original Robocop, show us that the brain still needs some "food" to survive (nutrients and others things), so the cyborg (in this case, Murphy/Robocop), have some form of artificial digestive system.

But in GURPS Ultra-Tech we don't have much details about this kind of stuff. The books says that a total cyborg have a case with Life Supprt System, sure. But what about the rules?

In the Android template it's says that the robot need fuel cells. So, a total cyborg body would need some form of fuel cells to work. But even if the cyborg is Nucllear powered, the brain would still need nutrients, so, in theory, you still need to eat.

Some may think that this details could be included in Maintenance disadvantage (maybe replacing the nutrients used/consumed or something like that), but for me it's doesn't seem quite right.

How we can emulate this in GURPS, at least in a "realistic" way?


And about other thing: it's really necessary to have the Maintenance disadvantage? I mean, it make some sense, but the frequency rate doesn't seem right. I mean, sure, we can assume that they are very complex and needs constant attention. But look and hour computers, cars, etc.. They need some maintenance, sure, but not with this frequency. You can use a car or a computer for more than year without any special attention. This, of course, may differ from movie to movie, book to book, etc.. But... I don't know. Maybe this should be discussed somehow.


Anyway, thanks and sorry for any english mistakes (and I know that there are many).

=)

Re: Total Cyborg, Life Support System, and how GURPS deal whith it
 

I think one of the more realistic ways to handle this would be to leave the cyborg with a need to eat, and have restricted diet nutrient paste (this is something like how Robocop functions). In this case the cyborg body would have a system of processing the nutrient paste so as to provide nutrients to the brain, but it wouldn't be able to process normal food as that would require alot more work to processes.

Additionally I would think there would need to be a system to handle oxygen to the brain as well. This would mean effectively I think they wouldn't have "Doesn't Need to Breathe" or the like, or perhaps a modified version of that for oxygen storage in tanks integrated into the body. Regardless it would need a system to appropriately dissolve the oxygen into a blood delivery system so that the brain cells could properly use the oxygen.

I rather agree about maintenance and feel like it would be more realistic to have it set to something like a yearly thing. But realistically that would really depend on how the cyborg body is built.

Re: Total Cyborg, Life Support System, and how GURPS deal whith it
 

Yes, I was thinking in something like Oxygen Storage and maybe even Reduced Consumption for both food and air. Since your only biological function part is the brain, I think you need less food and air (I read somewhere that brain consumes about 20% of air of your whole body).

For normal humans, you need food and water. Since a cyborg lacks of body, I think we can trade water for Power Cells.

So, the Reduced Consumption advantage would reduced Food and Power Cells consumption (and can even the normal "Food Only" and the new "Power Cell Only" for -50%.

Am I missing something?

As for maintenance, I was thinking in something like a Quirk: Annual Maintenance.

PS: Rules for Reduced Consumption (Air) can be found in Transhuman Space: Changing Times, pg 41.

Re: Total Cyborg, Life Support System, and how GURPS deal whith it
 

The key question to ask is if cyborgs are substantially easier or harder to provide life support for than normal humans.

If they require some sort of nutrient paste that has to be specially prepared (rendered down from proteins, screened for viruses, whatever) they have a Restricted Diet (Common: Nutrient Paste) for -10 points. If they can make do with any sort of normal food but risk damage, they also have the substitution mitigator for -50%. If they can use normal food with no risk of damage, this is just a feature of their condition and not worth any points (although might have a quirk "Processes food noisily before consuming")

If the cyborg requires less life support than a normal human, give them reduced consumption, which also works with restricted diet. For example, if they require one dose of nutrient paste a day (versus 3 normal meals for a human) they would have reduced consumption 2 [4]. Cyborgs commonly have no need for water, so Doesn't Eat or Drink (Drink only -50%) [5] would be a good advantage to take.

If the cyborg requires more life support, increased consumption would be appropriate and applied in a similar way. Perhaps the cyborg brain is overclocked and requires a large amount of nutrient paste to remain active.

Does the cyborg require more skilled labour to maintain than a normal person does from a doctor? If so, maintenance is the appropriate disadvantage. For a sci-fi cyborg a visit to the local worlds bio-programmer once a month seems about right, so give them Maintenance (Bio-Electric Engineering, 1 person, monthly) [-2]. Continuing the progression of maintenance intervals, a once every 3 month check up would be a -1 quirk.

Even if the cyborg does not require maintenance, they very likely have Unhealing (Total, except brain damage -10%) [-27], so if they are damaged they will need someone who can repair them.

If the cyborg also needs a power supply (energy cells, fusion cores, whatever) I would add a second Restricted Diet as an alternate ability to the most expensive one. Combining reduced or increased consumption with the restricted diet first to create a meta-disadvantage is advisable here to make sure the math all works out correctly. I would do this as an alternate ability because generally supply problems are only as bad as the most difficult one (Needing a power cell once a year doesn't matter when you need food once a day and can't get access to it)

As a final example of the whole trait to produce a hardish sci-fi cyborg:

Restricted Diet (Common: Nutrient Paste) + Reduced Consumption 2 [-6]
AA: Restricted Diet (Common: Energy Cell) + Reduced Consumption 3 [-1]
Doesn't Drink [5]
Maintenance (Cyborg Engineering, 1 Person, 1 Month) [-2]
Unhealing (Total, except brain damage -10%) [-27]

Final: Cyborg [-31]

Re: Total Cyborg, Life Support System, and how GURPS deal whith it
 

You can also go the "build the brain as a total quadriplegic parasite to the robot body" route. Remember the rule from THS that requires you to buy your _most expensive_ body at full price.

Doing it that way, you can give the brain its own life-support disads (restricted diet "nutrient paste", doesnt breath (oxygen storage), etc), and give the body the restrictions IT needs (restricted diet: enery cells, doesnt breath, unhealing, maintenance, etc). Without having to A/A disads (which gets weird).

Re: Total Cyborg, Life Support System, and how GURPS deal whith it
 

I would add that water intake is important too. The brain is surrounded by cerebral fluid which helps shield it from injuries, and you need fluid for the blood that delivers nutrients to the brain and dissolves oxygen into a form brain cells can use.

I'd argue that without regular water intake the cyborg's brain would dry up and die.

Re: Total Cyborg, Life Support System, and how GURPS deal whith it
 

We go through around 1/2 liter of cerebrospinal fluid a day. It's produced and reabsorbed constantly.
You only need to take in water if you can't purify what you have or "leak" it for some purpose or injury. Like sweating, urinating, or bleeding. For some desert animals, the one leak they can't do much about is exhalating all the moist lung air.

Re: Total Cyborg, Life Support System, and how GURPS deal whith it
 

Then you get the issue of Daleks. If they're NEVER going to be outside their machines, why count them separately?

I know that I made a thread on this very topic a while back.

I would prefer the Machine template with a modifier for "not the brain" and separate Fatigue score for mental losses, etc.
Dietary restrictions then include both unusual brain foods and electricty/batteries, also etc.

Re: Total Cyborg, Life Support System, and how GURPS deal whith it
 

I guess Ill leave the discussion to that other thread, rather than clutter this one. But just the fact that you dont have to figure out some tiny limitation on Unliving (for the body) to exclude the No Brain part makes it worth it to me. It isnt really about whether they will move body to body, its just about keeping the various different rules easy to decipher. If they CANT move, dump Possession. There was a neat thread on Ettins as two separate characters I started not long ago that could be raided for ideas too.

YMMV though.

Re: Total Cyborg, Life Support System, and how GURPS deal whith it
 

Mobile possession makes me think of the little aliens from Men In Black or when The Thing's head sprouted spider legs and ran away.

I once thought of making a fully robotic version of those.

Re: Total Cyborg, Life Support System, and how GURPS deal whith it
 

I'd think you could design whatever systems are suitable for your campaign. Some variations:

The brain must be submerged in an oxygenated liquid medium and provided with nutrients that can be sprinkled into the medium. The Body runs on moon dust power and is free to maintain while on Luna or other moon.

The brain is supported intravenously with transfused blood at a hideous cost. Additionally, support staff must treat the vessel holding the brain frequently to avoid surface scaring and infection. The body must be tethered or will power down in five minutes.

The brain and body both run off organic matter. A molecular dis/assembler contained in the cyborg digests food into components and assembles them into the required nutrients and fuel. Some models allow the excretion of compounds, restricted by CR, as needed.

I'm pretty sure it works however you want it to.

Re: Total Cyborg, Life Support System, and how GURPS deal whith it
 

You could say that to nearly any question though.
There should be certain assumptions to allow discussion at all.
These should probably be based on stated genre.
I would suggest that, baring contrary specifics, we should assume as realistic a setting as possible given the initial question.

A Total Cyborg then would be a brain/CNS attached to synthetic organs that may function better than, equal to, or even less than natural ones.
Some may function differently too such as lungs that operate on continual aeration rather than our primitive mammalian pumps. Same for cardiovascular systems.

Re: Total Cyborg, Life Support System, and how GURPS deal whith it
 

Yeh, but that could mean bio support paste and a separate fuel cell supply, or using nanos to dis/assemble regular food into the needed compounds. Heck, the support paste might double as fuel for the fuel cells. With synthetic senses, the paste wouldn't need to have a positive flavor. You could have a solid block of minerals or enzyme compounds that will last a year combined with mechanical means of maintaining the rest, fueling the system could be nuclear, solar.

Those are all fairly realistic setups, all within the scope of typical cyborg TL's for GURPS. Given TL8-TL10...you could have all kinds of different setups. The type of tech base you want has more to do with the type of cyborgs that can be in it. The more mature the tech, the lower the maintenance costs. If you don't have molecular assemblers, certain options are off the table. If you don't have long duration bateries, other options are out. Nuke power is prohibited? No nuke cells. Require deep space or undersea endurance? Can't depend on solar.

Heck, I can't even say where food paste would fall in the support options. Is "Government Lab Cyborg Food Paste" the only option, or can drones deliver "Francisco's Status 2 Cyborg Delicacies (human digestion compatible)"? The first is probably a dependency, scarce, expensive, and a lever for contro. The second is a world where food paste is just part of the normal cost of living no more significant than being a strict vegetarian.

Re: Total Cyborg, Life Support System, and how GURPS deal whith it
 

Human bodies use only around 100 Watts on average throughout the day. If your tech can't over power that, then you're not anywhere near advanced enough to start building a total cyborg.

Some of your suggestions skew toward the rubber science end, but where one draws the line is very subjective.

Re: Total Cyborg, Life Support System, and how GURPS deal whith it
 

I could of sworn we output that as waste heat a second, not per day. since on average it takes 2000 calories to fuel the average human, that would translate to a little over 8.3 megajoules (!)
per day.

Re: Total Cyborg, Life Support System, and how GURPS deal whith it
 

How about mixing in biotech? Use a genetweaked organ to convert waste in the bloodstream back into simple sugars and oxygen, when exposed to strong light or possibly even an electric current. Just top off the water and vitamins once every couple years or so to offset any losses.
Basically an everything organ to close the loop with the brain. You'd still need a mechanical pump, but you wouldn't even need free oxygen.

I remember hearing they found a new plant at Chernobyl. One that used melanin to "photosynthesize" radiation.

Found it. Not exactly a plant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiotrophic_fungus
Mind you, you'd probably not want to put a radioisotope source strong enough to power the human brain in anything like a normally scaled full cyborg.

Also a possibility for powering a partial cyborg.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_organ

Re: Total Cyborg, Life Support System, and how GURPS deal whith it
 

We really don't know about the work the cyborg body is expected to do, or the efficiency of the machinery involved. Office worker? Dock worker? Athlete? Combat cyborg with Gatling laser for an arm? These bodies could all be in the same setting and still have different power supplies. Office worker uses a straight capacitor and can plug in anywhere. Dock worker and athlete use the civilian capacitor system, but both have different power cells for high performance tasks. Combat bodies might want extended duration and peak performance. Does that mean bulk, increased battle load, or a different way to get the power? Setting plays a big role in what the available answers are, and purpose tells what requirements are attempted from those available answers.

Energy needed to support the brain is probably straightforward to calculate, but raw energy isn't the problem there, it's providing that fuel in a form the brain can use, without the rest of the normal organs.

Re: Total Cyborg, Life Support System, and how GURPS deal whith it
 

Unless the character has trouble finding 'food' you shouldn't be giving them points for it.

Re: Total Cyborg, Life Support System, and how GURPS deal whith it
 

We don't know if that's the case or not. It could be dependency, maintenance, restricted diet, quirk or feature. It could even be an advantage. Depends largely on the state of cyborgs in the setting.

Re: Total Cyborg, Life Support System, and how GURPS deal whith it
 

Our output varies from 90% basal when sleeping up to a kilowatt for explosive jumps. Overall it averages/equates to a continual 100 Watts.

2000 Calories times 4184 Joules is close to 8.3 megajoules. But turn that into continual power and you get close to 96 Watts.

Re: Total Cyborg, Life Support System, and how GURPS deal whith it
 

So, we need some sort of power and mechanics capable of outputting a kilowatt, providing we want base human performance. If we're confined (for values of confined) to TL8 to TL10, there are a lot of options for putting that much power in a human sized form. Fuel cells and turbines are just two of the options explicitly mentioned in UT for powering portable devices at TL9. TL10 can convert food to electricity. A TL9 fission generator suitable for a military unit fits in a truck bed, so it's not unreasonable to expect a TL10 generator for a cyborg. For all I know the cyborg subscribes to beamed power from orbit and gets his internet through the transmission.

With all the available biotech options, there's a good variety of choices for supporting the organic brain too.