Striking with the flat of the blade
 

So my players are about to go up against skeletons and they'll want to do crushing damage. Can they strike with the flat of the blade or the back of the axe to do this? I seem to remember something about this in Campaigns but I can't find it.

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

Personally, I'd allow it and just change the cutting damage to crushing. The only in-character reason I can think of for not doing that is the worry that it might damage the blade.

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

B401, box "Subduing a Foe", paragraph Turn your blade.

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

There really is zero reason cutting damage will be reduced against skeletons. Remember, it's piercing and impaling that fail horribly against skeletons, not axes!

That said, reality (and history) allows for holding your sword by the blade and bashing some skulls with the guard.

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

Some skeletons have Vulnerable (Crushing) x2. Particularly, those in Magic.

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

Those are the ones I'm going with, basically. I've modified the templates somewhat, but that's the basic idea.

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

There are videos on that (this one by Skallagrim, for example), if you want to show your players.

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

Creatures with Vulnerability (Crushing). As mentioned, skeletons. But also some birdlike creatures, among other things.

Do note that this is likely to change the skill required to Axe/Mace due to making the weapon Unbalanced (U-Parry).

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

Realistically, striking with the flat of your blade should result in a substantial reduction in damage; swords are not meant to be used that way.

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

That seems to amount to 1-2 points of damage on a normal sword (the amount that can be attributed to sharpness of a sword as opposed to just its mass×velocity; compare to a stick of a similar mass, with no edge).

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

Yeah, I'm gonna reduce the damage by a point or two.

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

I'd allow it but reduce the base damage of the sword by a couple of points. Note that battle axes aren't the same as wood axes; they don't really have a flat back to strike with. You'd be hitting with the socket that holds the blade on the haft.

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

Which is still metal and has the mass of the axe head behind it...

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

And if you want to end your opponent rightly, throw your pommel at him!

-1/die seems fair enough, and compensated for when smiting things with Vulnerability (Crushing).

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

Does anyone else kind of feel as if this should attract a -1 penalty to skill, at least until bought off with a technique (or maybe just worked off, like a familiarity penalty) ?

I realize this would a departure from RAW, so obviously, I'm wrong. But I think I would probably rule that way if GMing this: after all, this involves a change of grip, an unfamiliar blade profile, the blade would respond very differently when striking/sliding against surfaces (i.e. when blocked or parried), you'd have to leave out any of your techniques that relied on draw cuts etc, some openings in the flow of combat would no longer be viable, other kinds of opening would become available... and so on.

Any takers?

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

Agree, but probably below the resolution of fun.

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

Yeah, that was a funny one. I still think it was something medieval writers put in as a joke or a trap, though - IIRC, the fechtbuchen were a means of advertising their services as teachers, so they would sometimes leave things out, or add pointless bits, so that people would need to go to them.

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

This is how it is managed in Martial Arts. Swords held by the blade are two-hand round maces.

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

Unfamiliarity maybe - if you never ever used the Broadsword skill with a stick.

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

Its also that a sword is not built to move perpendicular to the plane of the edge, that its flexible in that line, that its very wide in that line so distributes the impact which is left after flexing ... so yes, -1 or -2 damage would be fair. Someone who wants to bludgeon the undead should use the pommel or an actual mace or club.

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

Sadly, that would only work in modern fights... sword pommels weren't screwed on, they were usually riveted on. Ie, the tang wasn't threaded, and was hammered flat over the pommel to hold it all in place tightly.

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

You didn't see the video linked in response to my post, did you? Throwing your pommel at your opponent is listed in a handful of old manuals as a way to "end your opponent rightly."

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

I did, thus the italicized Usually in my post. Non riveted pommels were quite rare.

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

And possibly intended for this specific action. Come to think of it, removing the pommel could expose a sharp piece of metal for some particularly lethal "pommel" strikes...

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

Not any worse than normal pommel strikes. Not to mention the general bad idea that you're likely to lose the rest of the furniture if you don't reattach it before using the weapon. Also if it's loose enough to remove, you have the danger of loose furniture which can cause the weapon to be more susceptible to breakage at the tang, etc.

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

We don't actually know how rare they were, given the context of the Gladiatora fechtbuchen (if it were particulatly rare, one would expect them to say something about it). 'Uncommon' may be a more accurate term.

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

Back-up mace weighs in at 3lbs, all warriors should carry one.

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

Or if they still want to use their Broadsword skill, a light club.

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

Realistically, cutting damage should be no worse than crushing damage against skeletons except that there's no reason to apply the cutting wounding modifier.

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

In cases where you're trying not to cut a living opponent, I'd require a skill element to test for it. Perhaps a separate roll, or a requirement to exceed the normal hit target by a certain amount.

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

The template for skeletons includes Vulnerability (Crushing) in this case. Thus, crushing damage is preferred.

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

It's an unfortunate artifact in the template. They should have advantages that reduce wounding instead.

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

They (should) have an Injury Tolerance, making piercing and impaling quite ineffective.

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

The effect is the same, just the absolute hitpoints they can suffer change.

Basically:
option 1: Injury tolerance(damage reduction) (not vs crushing) (2)
option 2: vulnerability crushing x2

Both options have the same effect except the skeleton in option 1 has double the effective hitpoints. So doubling the hit points for option 2 skeleton would achieve the same effect.

Also note that the standard skeleton template does have Injury Tolerance (unliving) and no vulnerable locations making things like impaling weapons a lot less useful.

That leads to:
Thus the design for the standard skeleton in clearly meant to be really low effective hitpoints against crushing(1-2 hits to first death roll), low effective hit points against cutting(2-3 hits to first death roll) and such and fairly effective hit points against impaling(4-6 to first death roll) and piercing(depends on type).

Examples:
A fantasy warrior in low power campaign(ST 13) where the basic skeleton in fairly suitable enemy uses a club or thrusting broadsword against it(both are 3lb weapons using broadsword skill):
Broadsword thrusting: 1d+2 imp. -2 DR=3.5 average damage Unliving=3.5 injury or 3 hits to go <0, 6 hits to force first death roll, 8 hits to force second death roll
Broadsword swing: 2d cut -2 DR=5 average damage=7.5 injury or 2 hits to go <0, 3 hits to force first death roll, 4 hits to force second death roll
Club swing: 2d crush -2 DR=5 average damage=10 injury or 1 hit to go to 0, 2 hits to force first death roll, 3 hits to force second death roll

Compare that to hitting a living creature with DR 2 and the same 9HP:
Broadsword thrusting: 1d+2 imp. -2 DR=3.5 average damage=7 injury or 2 hits to go <0, 3 hits to force first death roll, 4 hits to force second death roll
Broadsword swing: 2d cut -2 DR=5 average damage=7.5 injury or 2 hits to go to 0, 3 hits to force first death roll, 4 hits to force second death roll
Club swing: 2d crush -2 DR=5 average damage=5 injury or 2 hits to go <0, 4 hits to force first death roll, 6 hits to force second death roll

Note: the reason why I say a ST 13 character finds skeletons suitable is in the number of hits above needed. A ST 16 character would quite likely cause immediate death roll on with one hit of the club and as the skeleton has on average ht 10 it would be destroyed half the time.. making it a true mook.

Thus for the ST 16 character you would likely want to double(Or triple) the hitpoints either directly or with Injury tolerance(damage reduction) or by adjusting the armor value.

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

Point goes to Railstar for experience efficiency!

Re: Striking with the flat of the blade
 

You mean like Homogenous? Which they have.