Alternative Skills
 

It's very expensive to build the master-of-all-weapons in GURPS without giving him an astronomical DX. What do you think of the idea (in a highly cinematic game) of borrowing the mechanism for Alternate Abilities and pay only full cost for the most expensive weapon skill and 1/4* for the other skills?

*because it makes the math neater

Re: Alternative Skills
 

Why not use the rules already in place for Buying Skills at Default or Wildcard Skills?

Re: Alternative Skills
 

If they're genuine alternatives, sure, why not? I might insist on unarmed, melee, throwing, and longer range missile weapons in separate categories though. They don't seem like genuine alternatives of each other

But it seems like a lot of extra computation compared to just letting them buy a Wildcard Melee! or Fight! skill. I suppose it lets you have different weapons at different skill levels, but when the point is to build a cinematic master of everything, why would you want that?

Re: Alternative Skills
 

And if you want such variability, well, GURPS Power-Ups 7: Wildcard Skills covers that ground with Improving Standard Skills From Wildcards, p. 5.

Re: Alternative Skills
 

My point exactly. I'd say use Wildcard Skills or else use Buying Abilities at Default. With that, you just train ONE skill to a level where skills using it at default are at a level higher than buying the first level in it. Then just purchase the alternate skill for the difference in cost from the level defaulted and that level plus one. GURPS Action uses this extensively for those that would be highly adept at various guns, since the defaults between most guns are a -2 to each other.

EDIT:

Huh. I always wondered if that could be a thing it sounds like GURPS Power-Ups 7: Wildcard Skills covers a lot more ground than I thought it did! But that in particular sounds like combining the two methods by buying your skills at Default, basing the default off the Wildcard Skill.

Re: Alternative Skills
 

My group has experiment with letting people buy Gun Weapons as DX/A skill and Sword Weapons (or Impact, or Pole, etc) weapons as a DX/H skill. It makes it a little easier to be a master of multiple weapons, especially weapons that have both one-handed and two-handed attack modes, without going to the extremes of Wildcard skills.

I've also introduced a Master of Arms talent that covers all melee weapons for 10 points a level. The combination of the two lets you be a DX+3 master of every melee weapon for around 50 points. After that, you need to start raising DX.

Re: Alternative Skills
 

However, Wildcard skills are very broad. If I want two (A) skills at DX+5, that could cost me 40 points? (IDHMBWM) There's no Wildcard skill that's going to cover two melee skills, for melee use and melee use only. Under my proposal, it would cost 25 points, which I think is fairer. The downside is that you'll have to take a second to adjust when you pick up a new weapon, but I can live with that.

Re: Alternative Skills
 

It covers a great deal of ground! The "skill compendium" part fills only 11 pages out of 39. Rules for designing wildcards, defaults to and from wildcards, additional benefits for wildcards, and using wildcards in play fill 23 pages, or about twice as much space. (The remaining 5 pages consist of end matter: title page, table of contents, introduction, and index.) Speaking as the writer, while I was required to include the skill archive, I was more interested in the expanded rules for design and use.

Re: Alternative Skills
 

Let me echo this from a user's perspective: there's a LOT more in there than the list, and this supplement is a way to make very broadly competent characters. Just remember that "broadly competent in things that have very high adventuring utility" is GURPS-speak for "expensive as hell" from a points accounting perspective.

Re: Alternative Skills
 

Yep. Of course, the GM could let each player define a custom role-based wildcard (p. 7) of the "ultimate template wildcard" variety (p. 18) that allows a roll for anything to do with their place in the campaign; give them full wildcard familiarity (p. 11), loads of implicit perks (p. 12), and a raft of other bonuses, including resistance and damage bonuses (pp. 13-15), within their area of expertise; be liberal about off-label use and negotiations (p. 23) outside their area of expertise; treat easy tasks as trivial (p. 25); open up the critical success range (p. 26); and grant Wildcard Points to spend as meta-game currency (pp. 12-13). That would make the expense a whole lot more justifiable, as the PCs would then be able to see most of the plot as a nail to hammer with their wildcards, enjoy benefits that no non-wildcard skill grants at any level, and have the functional equivalent of a bunch of Luck-related and Higher Purpose advantages. Also, ignoring many penalties and receiving bonuses for simpler tasks would make effective skill levels higher despite the high cost.

Re: Alternative Skills
 

That's what Buying Skills at Default allows. Buy one skill up to a decent level for, say, 16 points. Then pay only 4 points for other skills that can default off of it at a starting level of their default off that skill + 1 (In a lot of cases, this will end up being Base Skill - 1 or Base Skill - 3).

Let's use Broadsword and Shortsword as an example. Both are DX/A skills, so they start at DX - 1 and default to each other at Skill - 2. So let's build Broadsword up to DX + 3 for 12 points. This makes your Shortsword DEFAULT DX + 1. For 4 points (the difference between DX + 1 and DX + 2 for an Average skill), you just bought yourself Shortsword at DX + 2.

Re: Alternative Skills
 

I don't like the buying skills from default, as it rarely makes sense to use them. That's a big fail in the rules. The reason? once skills are high enough, you need 4 points to raise a skill from default. For those same 4 points, you could have raised the main skill by one point, and also raised the defaulted skill by one point. I do have a house rule here: for a perk (of the appropriate kind), I'll let you raise the defaulted skill as a hard technique. Once it's raised, to max skill, you're assumed to have "merged" the bodies of knowledge, and now you can get defaults from both skills covered by the default.

Re: Alternative Skills
 

Hmmm. I like it.

Re: Alternative Skills
 

...This makes way too much sense considering the reason why Techniques exist. Bravo, sir. Bravo.

Re: Alternative Skills
 

There's a RAW way of doing it that is cheaper than that. You have skill A (DX/A) at, say, 16 points for DX+4. Skill B defaults to A-4, so you have it as a default at DX. If you spend just one point on B, which isn't enough to raise the skill to DX+1, you still "know the skill", and can claim defaults from it. This Kromm quote and the surrounding thread explains some more.

Re: Alternative Skills
 

And if I want Broadsword and Axe/Mace? There's no default.

Re: Alternative Skills
 

I have always found the melee weapon skills and defaults to be "strange".

You learn to fight with a 1lb baton and suddenly you are an expert stabber and in hitting with the edge with 2lb shortsword(same skill) after few hours of familiarization, but cannot hit anything with a 1lb large knife(-3).

You learn to hit with a Small Mace where the orientation of the weapon does not matter and suddenly you can keep the blade oriented just fine on an axe after few hours of familiarization, but cannot learn the slightly different balance of a club at all.

As a trained cavalry man with high lance skill you hold you lance in one hand and brace it under the arm or similar and charge.. then your lance breaks and you draw a straight thrusting sword and hold it in one hand and suddenly you are at DX-5 to hit and you cavalry training does not help. That lack of bracing sure hurts a lot..

And the funniest of them all you learn to fight with a large axe and then pick up a Chainsaw and after a few hours you are the best chainsaw killer ever... but in you try to use an axe one handed you miss a lot(-3)..

And so on...

Re: Alternative Skills
 

I'd just allow an "All Melee Weapons" talent for 10/level and be done with it. It's less of a point crock than Magery. It's cheaper than DX! as it should be. And it's comparable in price to raising a wildcard skill minus the limited, built-in destiny point.

Re: Alternative Skills
 

I also default all weapons within a Reach category at -5.

Have you ever actually fought with those weapons?

Batons can 'stab', in particular thrusts to the throat and face are taught at the dojo I attended. Solar plexus and kidneys (if from behind) were also highlighted in the teaching.

Yeah... that ones dodgy. I haven't bothered to make it easier to go from Axe/Mace to Club, but it should be.

I'll have add Clubs to the Axe/Mace (and staffs to the Two-handed Axe/Mace) category in my home chart now that you've mentioned it. :)

And Staves on the Polearm list too.

You really don't want to stab with your sword whilst running someone down, you'll lose your sword at best, get unseated at worst. And there is a very big difference between running someone down with a a couched Lance and swinging on someone with a sword.

Proper cav training should have one at least Dabbling in Broadsword, if not with a full point if they've got points in Lance and Riding.

That one I have addressed: Chainsaws are their own skill, if you want to do really stupid things like use them in melee (unless it's an ACTION! game where such things are genre conventions, then I don't care and tend to default all weapons to Brawling if I really don't care (ala a quick vignette game with premades)).

Re: Alternative Skills
 

Fought with them, no, handled such and trained in defending against them both armed an unarmed: yes.

My armed training is with heavier weapons. I have mostly used what Gurps calls thrusting bastard swords and we just called "one and half handers", though some playing around with various other weapons.

It is the martial artists that train in stabbing with the baton others do predominantly swings unless they have originally trained with some other weapon.

Most people I have seen with batons and the like would likely not:
-Hit with the edge always with the swing the of the short sword instead if a baton.
-Be equally good at stabbing than someone who has actually trained with a "stab primary" weapon.

But they would likely be as good at stabbing with the baton and the large knife.

I did not see any difference in wielders skill between a knife and a baton that switched between them. Maybe they have all bought off the penalty though...

And yet that is a cavalry tactic that has been in actual use at some places and times... and there was apparently a lot of "this is better" "no that is better" back then.. so flame wars are nothing new.. :)

And an overall comment: I do find -3/-4 to be too high penalty between a lot of the weapons. Specially at lower skill levels.

A light rapier to an early small sword should not be a -3 transition as it is about the same as rapier to light rapier, the later dress small swords are then again smaller..

A roman Gladius is counted as a shortsword despite some examples being 85cm long and and some arming swords are shorter, but are pointed broadswords..

In general I would lower the penalties a lot after some familiarization.

As example the historical transition of 1 Rapier->2 shorter rapier(light rapier)->3 small sword->4 smaller smallsword(dress longsword). Gurps draws a big line between transition steps 2 and 3, but treats the two other transitions as only requiring few hours of familiarization compared to the 4*3*200=2400 hours of training for step 2 to 3.

A more proper way would be to either threat all of it as familiarization or make all steps be say -1 similarity and a lot more steps in the transition charts.

Note that there are other cases than the ones I listed:
Like someone who is somewhat trained in say a broadsword and has a skill at DX+2 grabs a smallsword would not be at DX-5 for thrusts after couple of hours of learning the balance.

Re: Alternative Skills
 

I'm trying a houserule where, instead of defaulting a melee weapon skill from DX, you can default it from your best melee skill at the same penalty as DX.

Re: Alternative Skills
 

The Roman gladius and spatha were terms used interchangeably, from what I've been told. Modern scholars and weapon enthusiasts have long after the fact mostly settled on "gladius is a short Roman sword, spatha is a long Roman sword" despite the gradients between the extremes.

Likewise the Japanese terms to (from the Chinese dao), tachi, and katana all simply meaning "sword" or even "knife" depending on the context (tanto for dagger and kaigatana for penknife). This is the sort of thing I picked up on mostly from videogames.