Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

Can Defensive Imbuements work with advantage DR? I was pretty sure only worked with gear DR

I've had a 25 DR fantasy character, neat yes, but hardly the ticket to immortality in worlds of myriad ways to get armor divisors, majorly brawny weapon masters and super brawny non weapon masters and assorted spells that either can get past DR or are 'Save or X' effects

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

beef·cake
ˈbēfˌkāk
noun informal
an attractive man with well-developed muscles



Emphasis mine. If she is identifying as male... then one shouldn't describe him as female. ;)

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

I played a Mongol-esque (with a touch of Tibetan) horse nomad in a more-or-less Legend of the Five Rings game. I was a nasty, animal-hide wearing person of no delicacy, who might be able to compose good poetry extemporaneously but I still put butter in my tea and smelt of horses.

I also have repeatedly played various kinds of large lunkheads in light armor with big two-handed weapons, although none of them have been particularly shirtless or midriff baring, because that's stupid in most cases (Shirtless Savage barbarians and Coleopterans excepted). I also think sculpted "boob plates" are some sort of bizarre attempt to kill off female warriors.

I'm rather more likely to associate the word "barbarian" with the latter type than any real-world culture, because 1) I'm never in a Roman-style campaign where the real-world context of the word would make sense and 2) it's an insulting term in anything approaching a real-world context.

In a Conan-esque context, Barbarian is a word of pride. It has been reclaimed, so to speak, by the big hairy two-handed-weapon wielding tribal cultures of fantasy worlds.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

That's because Howard didn't cotton much to city-folk's behavior and he was equating 'civilized' with 'lying arsehole weasels' in his Conan stories.

Conanesque barbarians should have a strong steak of honor and pride, and be prepared to back it up with Two-Fisted justice!

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

Okay, guess we just have a lot of assumption clash here. I wouldnt drop Tough Skin, as it is perfectly valid to stack Tough skin underneath normal DR.

Not sure Id stick to a CP total either... the price of the DR isnt how the level of the DR gets limited on the template (on any of the templates mentioned, actually). They just say how much DR you can buy, and then how much it costs. So Shirtless Savage either costs less (because you keep Tough Skin, like I do, but upgrade to Cant Wear Armor, as you suggest), or more (because you dump Tough skin and upgrade to CWA, as you suggest).

Oh, and I was using Colepteran's power up to DR 6 from DF 11. But yes, it would start at DR 5 (CWA) + DR 2 (CWA, TS), and go up as power-ups are allowed to be purchased from there. DR 7 for no weight out of the gate is pretty impressive all on its own though.

I salute your attention to combinations :). That said, beefcake/cheesecake protection may not be allowed to Coleopteran's, as they are Hideous racially, and I dont think it would be something you could buy off... even with the option under Shirtless Savage. Can a "class" template option let you buy off a racial disad? So that is 21 less points to the 500+ point combo you got going there :)

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

Oohoo! That summons an image of the Zaporozhian cossacks with one saying, "no no, we need to confront their oppressive and subalternating discourse! We are barbarians! Then we can shatter their hegemonic paradigm with an axe."

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

I took Beefcake to explicitly indicate that males can have it too, but the main issue with a Coleopterans is the fact that they have Appearance (Hideous), and you need to be at least Attractive for Bulletproof Nudity to kick in.

Now obviously giant bug men (or women) are repulsive to humans, and DF is human-centric - but this does raise the question of how even slightly monstrous barbarian races (like any goblin-kin) gets such a power-up? It should clearly work with each other (if their Appearance is bought up to the equivalence of attractive) even if it doesn't work on humans. Although this does quickly start to enter a the very messy situation where you ask if an orc who is attractive to other orcs is now more or less attractive to humans... and what about to other goblin-kin or elves...

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

If I were GMing this, I think I would avoid this mess by simply ruling that the "Bulletproof Nudity" genre switch is about what's Attractive to the audience, not what's Attractive to any particular in-game individual or species.

After all, there's no realist in-game justification for the Bulletproof Nudity rule. Rather, the rule is a way to model some of cheeseball genre conventions specific to visual media like film, tv, and comics.

Some people who are against all meta- or genre-switches like to justify the rule in-game by saying "you get a defense bonus because the enemy is so distracted!", or similar. In my view, that's not really RAW, since if that were true, then the bonus would only apply against living, sentient targets who find you Attractive, and that's not what the rule says. On the contrary, by RAW, it seems to me that it ought to work against all sorts of things that can't possibly find you Attractive, like zombies, swinging blade deathtraps, etc etc.

I think it's better to justify it by saying "you get the defense bonus because that encourages you to show the audience your buff physique!". That's really much more what is going on in the genres the rule is quoting.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

As noted earlier, shattering unfair hegemonic paradigms with axes is the entire raison d'etre of literary barbarians:

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

There's an anime with cute cockroach girls. That could inspire a take on the idea.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

So does provide a horse nomad type barbarian?

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

Sir, I believe I said "I do not want some". That does not mean "Give it to me".



On topicish: I'm fine with giving Bullet Proof Nudity to a horribly ugly, but unprotected PC.

I am not so keen giving it to a PC that has inbuilt armor...

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

Are we talking ugly-ugly or Hollywood ugly?

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

As per the recent thread here, I don't consider it valid for a PC with natural DR. It's very much missing the point.
If you're already in a game where you're buying natural DR, buy more natural DR.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

Coyote Ugly.




And in seriousness, I'd allow ugly-ugly to get away with Bullet Proof Nudity if I were allowing it. Beauty being in the Beholder's eye(stalk).

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

I don't think self-identity should ever trump biological fact.

I believe unabashedly that coyotes are a top contender for the most beautiful animal in nature.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

So you don't think it's appropriate as newly written up in DF Denizens: Barbarians?

I really like the new RAW on this, because it means that Conan The Destroyer-style Barbarians can get some worthwhile DR* and a bonus to Active Defenses, finally making the I Love To Go Around In Nothing But Furry Underpants look viable for a front-line combatant.

This means that Arnie-style Barbarians are finally viable as characters! (For the first time, in my view.) So I think this option is great!

Interested to hear your views, Bruno...


* Though DR that leaves them vulnerable to poisons, contact agents, etc

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

If only Rinaldo had known that the way to fight tyranny was through literary theory not plots with fat merchants and the commander of the Black Legion, his career might not have been cut short. More evidence that what poets really need is a degree in English.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

The biology isn't as clear-cut as you think. Self-identification is a better golden standard, if only for politeness' sake.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

Beefcake Protection says nothing about DR, so that's not clear what the intent was there. While I'm uncomfortable with the compatibility with Naked Rage, you can't defend when you're Berserk so that's a moot point. I don't think the things that require Berserk accept Enraged instead, but it might be simply "-10 points in Berserk" so Enraged + Battle Fury, or Enraged 6- would count. If so, Enraged allows (penalized) defenses, and I'm back to being uncomfortable.

Sure, DF is a very combat heavy genre. DF is also a genre where being naked isn't a social problem most of the time, and some awfully skimpy clothing seems to be socially acceptable even In Town. That's one of the townsides of the tactic, smooshed right there.

Paying to have access to it is different from it being a campaign wide switch, but there's not a lot of paying for it going on here (one point). I'd be more lenient about non-protective clothing for your perk before I'd be happy being lenient about DR.

I think it's still a very useful perk, and appropriate - there are nimble barbarians who don't rage, and instead of taking axes to the arm they get out of the way. It's very good for them.

I don't like it for the ten-tons-of-natural-DR guy. I don't even like it for the more "normal" 3-5 DR (with limitations) guy.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

At least not as a Perk. Buy Enhanced Defenses (only when naked, -40%)?

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

I would let the knot-of-scar-tissue barbarian buy the equivalent.

The attractive barbarian isn't paying as much with the perk, but they've sunk points into being pretty in a campaign where there may be a lot less social interaction in general, and in the dungeon when you're dealing with dire animals, zombies, goo, golems, rock boarers, 6-armed Things, and so forth, you probably spend a lot of time with stuff that just plain old ignores your Appearance. (Meanwhile the monstrously ugly barbarian is basically subsidizing his DR with that appearance problem).

Actually, makes me think about rebuilding it as a sort of Alternate Ability to appearance (or vice versa, depending on your Appearance level). This would allow natural DR - and people without sufficient Appearance can buy it normally, this way, where they can't buy the perk.

Basic Tools: +1 to active defenses (+1 DB) is 30 points (Enhanced Block, Enhanced Dodge, Enhanced Parry). I'm going to steal Cannot Wear Armor from DR here, for -40%.


The zeroeth level is the Nonprotective Clothing perk that lets you wear clothes even with CWA.

I'd say that the first "level" of "Beefcake Protection", is basically +1 DB, CWA -40%, and a -10% Accessibility for not being able to wear sensible exploring clothing (basic pants protects against scrapes on rocks, thorns, nettles, etc - and you can't wear enough clothes to really be comfortable in a bit of damp, let alone proper winter weather; buy temperature tolerance). [15 points].
The Swimsuit "level" is similar, but the Accessibility is worse - I'm not sure it's worser enough to count as -20% though. -15% therefore. [14 points].
I do think Total Nudity is worth -20%, so the Total Nudity level gives +1 Basic Move [4 points] and +2 Water Move [4 points]

I'm going to handwave the Topless Female as being a gender-specific Total Nudity - so women can buy an extra +1 DB for 12 points.

That's a 38/50 point ability, depending on breasts. I'm willing to argue on the Accessibility values, but most of the nakedness is really already covered by CWA.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

When you calculate the price this way, it certainly does look as if the 1pt that the DF Barbarian is paying for access to the Bullet Proof Nudity rules is ridiculously cheap, even when you take into account the extra 4 pts they have to pay for Attractive in a campaign where that's going to be less useful than normal.

So you make a compelling case!

But to my mind, it's still a good idea to allow the Bullet Proof Nudity option, even for Barbarians who already have some natural DR, because it makes the Arnie-style furry-underpants Barbarian viable as a front-line fighter. And in my view they ought to be viable as front-line fighters in DF, since front-line fighting near-nude barbarians are a pretty important part of the source material.

To me, it seems as if your solution (while very elegant! ) really amounts to charging the Barbarian player a hefty price for the right to change the genre settings to what they ought to be in DF anyway.

Any thoughts?

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

Didn't historical berserkers fight in the nude? Perhaps it was simply distracting to the opponent. I suspect that woad patterns are also mesmerizing on the battlefield.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

I don't see how self-identification can be a golden standard at all, nor why being "polite" to someone who wants to be identified as something he isn't should be held in higher value than making communication as unambiguous as possible.

But maybe this is why I'm doomed to be an outcast and live on the fringes of communities both online and off.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

The historical berserkr (Norse) wore bearskin.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

Thanks for taking the time to work this out Bruno. It is nerdy fun.

The Holy Warrior in his complete suit of magical armour has to pay money for it, it encumbers him when he has to run away or falls into a pit full of water, and it can be dissolved by goo, melted by dragonfire, or stolen by the Thieves' Guild. Someone who wants to be just as safe without all that iron should pay points for it.

Now, a game inspired by Conan in his time as a bandit or thief, where the protagonists can only have what armour they can put on alone and wear all day, and Akbitanian steel driven by barbarian thews can cleave the sturdiest casque, could be fun. Bulletproof Nudity might explain why all the thieves strip to their loincloth or their brass bikini before robbing the Spire of the Rhinoceros. But that would be a bit different from Kromm's vision of Dungeon Fantasy.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

How to put this... did they wear it on their shoulders?

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

I second that!

I agree - but (not to nitpick!) the question is as to how many points.

I think the rules in DF Denizens: Barbarians strike the right balance, and I was really pleased to see them when they came out. But Bruno - whose views I respect - is proposing that it would be fairer to charge the Barbarian much more than the new RAW says. To me, this that has the unfortunate side effect of returning us to the state of things before DF Denizens: Barbarians, when anyone who tried take a Conan-style loincloth-clad barbarian into a front-line fight got slaughtered for lack of defense.

To me, a DF player ought to be able to say "I want to play an Arnie-style Conan!", and be able to do that effectively using the Barbarian template. I don't think that's outside the scope of the source material at all - in fact, I'd put it right at the heart of it! This means that you need to be able to play a big, hulking brute in furry underpants who has no appreciable role except as an effective front-line combat specialist. The rules didn't support this before; now they (sort of) do, so I'm happy with the changes!

In a sense this raises the whole debate about Outdoorsman again - Arnie's Conan is the Barbarian many people think of first, and his schtick is definitely not "woodsman and tracker" - he's a strength-based combat specialist - but let's not open that can of worms again! (though I can't resist adding that the new options for cheaper versions of Outdoorsman seem a step in the right direction here.)

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

/spittake


Like a cloak. If the 'head' hide was intact I believe it was used almost like a hood.

Berserker possibly comes from berserkr, which breaks down into either ber- (bear) serk (shirt) or berr- (naked) serk (shirt). So either someone wearing a 'bear shirt' or someone going unclad into battle (by which was meant bare chested or even just unarmored).

However in most poems they are also referred to as Úlfhéðnar (singular Úlfheðinn), or Wolf Heads, as they also wore wolf pelts and were describe as fighting like mad wolves/hounds.

From Ynglinga saga by Snorri Sturluson: "His (Odin's) men rushed forwards without armour, were as mad as dogs or wolves, bit their shields, and were strong as bears or wild oxen, and killed people at a blow, but neither fire nor iron told upon them. This was called Berserkergang."



It's theorized that berserkers wore the distinctive dress (wolf or bear pelt) so their friends would know to stay back from them in combat.

It's likely the berserkers wore pants and shoes, at the very least.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

Don't overlook the fact that DF describes the genre of cones of dragon's breath, area-effect fireballs, bubbling acid pits, and corridors trapped with so many arrows that you have to soak some of them with DR. There, defense bonuses aren't quite as cool if you have to strip naked (or nearly so) to enjoy them!

The DR limitations that limit armor-wearing match "you don't have armor, or at least as much armor" with "but here's some DR in place of armor," and are thus closer to tradeoffs. They understate the situation for defense bonuses, however, as while "you don't have armor, or at least as much armor" could in theory be a tradeoff with "but you don't get hit as much," that assumes you get to try to avoid most attacks. I'd argue that in DF, you face so many things you cannot avoid, only withstand, that having to be naked to use Enhanced Defenses is in practice a much bigger drawback than having to be naked to use DR. Even -80% might understate the scope, which may well cross the line into 0-point feature territory. I'd definitely invoke Below the Minimum (GURPS Power-Ups 8: Limitations, p. 7) in the hack 'n' slash genre, at any rate.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

As a Conan 'purest' I hate Arnie's Conan.

Fun movie, would watch again (though I prefer Conan The Destroyer)... but... that'sa not my Conan! ;)

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

Well, movie Conan is closer to a hack 'n' slash/dungeon crawl barbarian, while novel Conan is a traditional sword-and-sorcery hero. The first is a better fit to DF than the second. The first is all about personal strength, toughness, and skill at fighting – oh, and showing off muscles. The second belongs in the sort of fantasy where social position, large-scale battles, and so on factor into the heroes' adventures. DF has lots of rules for superhuman ST and resistance and combat ability, but essentially nothing for empire-building thief-kings and generals.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

I like Howard's Conan, too... as well as the old Savage Sword retellings from the 70s. But I still find Arnie's version great, stoopid fun to watch, in a very different way.

For whatever it may or may not be worth, that's my sense of it also.

In any case, I do think that the average casual gamer who picks up GURPS Dungeon Fantasy for the first time and reads "Barbarian" is probably going to think of Arnie first. (For better or worse!) That's one of the reasons I'm so pleased with the new supplement: it allows players to go ahead and play one of the obvious character types in a viable way.


You'll note that I'm oh-so-virtuously resisting asking why all the new Barbarian templates still have to take Outdoorsman, if movie Conan, who is not an Outdoorsman, really is a good example of a hack'n'slash dungeon crawl barbarian, as Kromm has just said he is...

Nope, definitely not trying to open that can of worms again... God, I'm virtuous....

Just jokes; I love the new supplement. :)

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

There's a fellow on YouTube that goes by the name Lindybeige (real name, IINM, Nikolas Lloyd) who posted a video about berserkers that seems pretty well researched. His conclusion was that berserkers were principally the member of a lord's entourage appointed to fight duels in the lord's stead. Only later literature attributed the separately attested blind battle rage as a key trait of berserkers.

And the big displays of madness (howling, gnawing on the shield, etc.) seemed to mostly come before the battle, which you then armored up for. Lloyd compared it to the All Blacks doing a haka before a match to get pumped up and intimidate the other side.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

I've also seen the theory that going berserk was something you did out of desperation, in the hopes that you'd have a better life if you lived and failing that, you'd go straight to Valhalla.

Young men lacking the wealth to buy armour, but very sure of their own valour and ability, as well as possibly house- or clanless warriors, would attempt to impress potential lords and terrify the enemy by making a virtue of necessity and fighting not only unarmoured, but also bare chested or naked.

Pre-gunpowder battles weren't usually quick and people did not spend every turn of them in melee combat. Shield walls might face each other for hours while each side tries to establish a psychological ascendancy. It isn't unreasonable to assume that displays of ferocity, courage and disdain for the other side had an actual military purpose, i.e. causing the other side's formation to stagger or loosen as men were tempted into individual engagements.

Nor is it unreasonable to speculate that warriors with nothing to lose (or believing that they couldn't lose), the drunk, the religiously frenzied and the otherwise desperate might have chosen such a wildly dangerous course as stripping down before (or while) mocking the other side, actually daring them to come out of their shield wall and fight them. It may not be a good way to stay alive for long, especially if you keep going closer and closer, eventually darting in for a clash of arms against their projecting spearpoints, but it's a good way to be noticed if you live.

And that's saying nothing of the effects on the morale of the other side. Screaming maniacs who seem to welcome death might be mechanically easy to deal with in GURPS, but if they charge home just before the clash of shield walls, they might be the straw that breaks the camel's back and cause a wholesale rout.

While it's possible that modern men are fundamentally different from men in other eras, I personally believe that there are enough similarities that the fact that one side or the other usually broke before it came to bayonet combat might indicate that a not insignificant fraction of pre-gunpowder battles might have been won before any actual large-scale melee took place.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

Your argument is circular and you are ignorant of the facts. But this is not the place for a discussion. If you want to continue, PM me.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

I can't comment on a fair price, because I do not have enough rulebooks in this city, and because I have never played a high-powered cinematic style of GURPS like Kromm's DF. His DF is not the kind of DF which I have played or run.

Arnie's Conan could climb and sneak and ride as well as fight, and nobody in Conan the Barbarian wears much more than a helmet and body armour. At the Battle of the Mounds he and Subotai were about as well armoured as their opponents. So maybe a genre switch which discouraged everyone from wearing armour is better than a character ability? Men in Howard's Hyborian Age keep finding excuses to strip to their loincloth, just like women run around in silken skirts and golden breast-plates regardless of cold, dust, and enemies with daggers.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

I agree wholeheartedly.

I also tend to really dislike DF... sorry Kromm. Not my cuppa... I just get all berserk about how Conan is represented.


Oh aye, DF is very much meant for over the top cinematics and action. Which I appreciate... it's just also still not the tone I'm aiming for.

I want something between DF and Banestorm. I tend to have to write them myself, which is fine. i draw from DF, Action, MH, etc... find the right mix.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

You're not alone there - I'm in that boat too. In fact, just from my very casual, nonscientific observations, I get the sense that a lot of people who play DF are actually looking for an easy, plug-and-play way to run more or less traditional RPG fantasy in GURPS, in a more serious way than the DF series envisions.

My suspicion is that the undertone in DF that keeps saying "of course these conventions are silly; we're not taking them very seriously" is more an obstacle to the series' popularity than an aid to it. I suspect that only a relatively small proportion of players really want to play a whole campaign in an ironic mode.

There is also the danger of the series coming off as if it's mocking those who take Fantasy of that kind seriously: as if it's saying "Yes, you can do this in GURPS, but really, mature people can only do it while holding their noses". I don't actually think any of the authors really think this way, but sometimes the tone of the writing might seem to be leaning in that direction.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

That's one thing that keeps me off of it, but really I've just tired of the whole "Fantasy == TL3 combat crawl with zap-pow wizards"

I'm stuck deciding between two settings for my next campaign: 7th Anglo-Saxon England and a 1920s-esque fantasy world. The first may have no magic at all, the second definitely will, but the only system I'm looking at for either is Path/Book.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

Honestly, I think if you get that from the writing, you brought it there yourself. The genre has always been a bit silly - there are in-jokes in stuff going all the way back to Blackmoor, and are there aren't all that many FRP lines that have made as much money as Munchkin. If a little silliness turns you off, you aren't playing in the core of the genre.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

Fair point. I guess all I'm trying to say is that not everyone wants that much silly in their campaign - and also to share my suspicion that a fair proportion of DF players play it with less irony than the tone of the line sometimes seems to suggest one should.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

I may be in the minority, but I actually like the cheese-ball approach that DF takes; the half-naked muscular and oiled barbarians with a smashy two-handed axe and the wizards that throw lightning bolts and fireballs all willy nilly keeps my ADHD attention span on the game.

As much as I enjoy fast and loose hack'n'slash, I do enjoy slight deviation from it; everyone has languages besides just "Common", races have cultures besides "Town" and "Dungeon", and there's some greater significance to the dungeon crawl like a five man attack on a castle to defeat the Dark Lord™ and save the princess... or something more to going in a dungeon besides collecting meat bags of EXP and loot. The PCs aren't just Murder Hobos, but their dungeon crawling also serves a greater purpose, be that collecting artifacts from the deepest depths of dungeons so they can have enough power to face off with the Dark Lord™ or whatever else the GM cooks up.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

Honestly, I can take the entire DF series, RAW, and run both silly cheeseball and deadly serious games with them without changing anything.

It's all in presentation and having your players on board with you. Maybe the naked barbarian has the spirits on his side for this show of boldness, or maybe he's just lucky, or maybe the enemy is having a run of distracting nosebleeds looking at those oiled muscles.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

That's why I pick up the DF line and then lift from it what I find useful.

Like the ENTIRETY of the Wilderness book. I swear that book came out at exactly the right moment for me, just as I was gearing up to do a fantasy wilderness crawl, it was like the GURPS deities had heard my prayers.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

They do that sometimes. The DF Denizens: Barbarians book has been a bit that way for me - just what I was looking for, at just the right moment. Praise Kromm and Crom!

(And Peter D'ell Orto... but that doesn't really fit the joke... Sorry Peter :) )

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

Although "traditional RPG fantasy" is a big ... convention hall. It has always had room for both high fantasy and low fantasy, and for relatively restrained and relatively baroque character abilities, and for different levels of engagement with the world, and for different levels of seriousness (the 1e books had actual cartoons printed in them ...). Even in 1e, when a Fighter or Rogue just got really good at fighting and sneaking as they increased in level, and it was very hard to survive to second level let alone reach ninth, a high level Monk or Magic User could do some funky things, and GMs could always fudge things to let characters survive long enough to have some real power. Kromm just sets each of these dials in a direction which is not my cup of tea, and I tend to use D&D for dungeon fantasy anyways. But I still own one or two DF books to mine for rules ideas.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

And just for an example of how big the tent can be, KenzerCo has published Tellene, a generic fantasy setting, since the 1990s. The canonical version of the setting has little room for spectacular magic or dungeons, although it does have the pseudo-Norse Fhokki who would be excellent for barbarian-themed adventures. But their rules tend to be pre-paradigmatic, with lots of fiddly parallel systems for different situations rather than a core mechanic and they publish both 'serious' (the new Hackmaster, 3.x) and 'humorous' (the old Hackmaster) fantasy rules. Barbarians can appear in either serious or humorous tones.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

Very good points. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with Cannot Wear Armor on it's own being worth more than -80%, but the build involves other limitations as well.
And as mentioned, I suggest treating it as an Alternate Ability with that prerequisite Appearance in pricing - it's not really alternate in that you have to take time to switch, but generally by the time you're getting shot at, your reaction modifiers have failed you (and vice versa, if your reaction mods are helping, you're probably not being shot at).
This just becomes a LOT more relevant if it's a cheaper advantage overall :)
Also, I forgot to put Cannot Wear Armor on the move adjustments for nudity.

So. New build!

Perk: Nonprotective Clothing [1]
Defense Bonus 1 (Cannot Wear Armor, -80%; Accessibility: Must be half naked, -10%) [3]
Defense Bonus +1 (Cannot Wear Armor, -80%; Accessibility: Must be nearly naked, -15%) [1.5]
Basic Move +1 (Cannot Wear Armor, -80%; Accessibility: Must be naked, -20%) [1]
Water Move +2 (Cannot Wear Armor, -80%; Accessibility: Must be naked, -20%) [1]

Total 7 points before going into the AA.

For female characters it is 8 points, for the option of an extra DB 1 when topless. [* footnote]

Putting even Attractive as an AA of this makes the total cost of Attractive + Beef/Cheesecake Protection 8/9 points, so it's only a 4-5 point advantage if you're Attractive.
If you're Handsome/Beautiful or better it's only 2 points, regardless of breasts.

Accessibility: Must be half naked, -10%
Covers the social inconvenience, and more importantly, not being able to wear sensible exploring clothing (basic pants protects against scrapes on rocks, thorns, nettles, etc - and you can't wear enough clothes to really be comfortable in a bit of damp, let alone proper winter weather; buy temperature tolerance).
Accessibility: Must be nearly naked, -15%
As above, but significantly more socially awkward.
Accessibility: Must be naked, -20%
Illegal in many jurisdictions, attracts attention from all the wrong sorts of monsters (and people).
[*] Regarding the topless women get a +1 - I would actually allow men to get the benefit, but they have to be even skimpier dressed than the proverbial barbarian furry bikini. A "posing pouch" or nicely-tailored sock or something. I'm also flexible on the kinds of clothing women can wear to get the bonus.
Basically, the different "levels" are "under-dressed", "pinup calendar", "soft-core porn magazine", "naked". I think this can apply just as well to male characters as to female characters. I know my game group knows what I'm talking about and will think it's equal-opportunity funny, not equal-opportunity offensive. YMMV.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

So what would this* give? Apart from a broken spine.

*picture of Red Sonja in full battle armor

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

's a Pinup picture. Most super-heroine outfits and cover poses are. Some poses are traced right out of porn though, and some costumes might technically cover the nipples and crotch but only because the artist conveniently forgot to draw the exposed anatomy correctly.

I'm not joking about the poses traced out of Playboy or whatever, either. Some of the weirdest problems on Eschergirls or BoobsDon'tWorkThatWay are a result of a photograph of a model lying down being used as a reference for a standing character.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

I had a theory that the reason barbarian women were so hairless and pain-resistant was that they used mail armor that pulled out all the hair from on their arms and legs and armpits, etc.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

Our group has found the two to be compatible. We're a team of newbies to the local Adventurer's Guild in Yrth. The GM uses DF rules (including Kromm's "in town" expansion from Pyramid) for just about everything, but our game is set in Cardiel and has featured plots involving Megalos spies, corrupt nobles, and more. Sometimes we fight and sometimes we just figure out what the problem is and fix it. It's gone quite well.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

Humh, if I ever am part of the right kind of gaming group, I would be tempted to run an over-the-top-pulpy fantasy campaign just as an excuse to use this.

{Echoes of 'and now you know' fade away} And now I suppose I have to search Tumbler don't I? There is the old joke about starting a dating service for male pinup artists because the poor things did not seem very familiar with their subject matter.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

I know a number of artists who make various levels of income drawing pinups and more. They know exactly what they are doing, but apparently realistically drawn women don't sell well.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

There's (un)realistic anatomy as in impossibly buxum or perky or amazing legs or whatever, which is one thing, and for the most part I have no real care about that except to find it sometimes funny. Whether it's attractive, interesting, "good" or whatever is subjective. Meh. "I don't know art but I know what I like etc"

There's un-realistic anatomy, though, which is just bad art - breasts going in various odd directions in an unsexy way or attached on to the abdomen instead of the chest or something really peculiar like that. I've polled various people who are attracted to women, and they usually can't overlook those sorts of problems because it's plain old bad art. Generally the two tumblrs I mentioned are about the second kind, the "Why did anyone pay for this?" sort of thing. That's why they're about professional commercial artists work, not random fan art or the like. It's about not meeting professional standards in a very specific area. I'm sure there's a tumblr devoted to Rob Liefeld's funny looking feet drawings and other such things.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

I'm not sure Google is capable of listing that many sites.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

Well, this always makes me laugh.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

Just Google "The 40 Worst Rob Liefeld Drawings" and then "40 MORE of the Worst Rob Liefeld Drawings". Milk will shoot out of your nose even if you're careful not to be within a mile of a dairy product.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

It's always fun to find some ridiculous parody of someone's work, then discover that it's a genuine example of that person's work. I can only explain that one as an attempt to break the Guinness World Record for number of pouches on a single comic book cover.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

Must Wear Pouches To Conspicuous Excess would be good for about -20% on Gizmos, IMHO. Warns the genre-savvy that you could be carrying anything, and gives a small penalty to Disguise, and maybe Escape situationally.

Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
 

(From my blog.)

This GURPS Dungeon Fantasy supplement expands the Barbarian archetype with new options and powers.

So yeah, it's a splatbook. It combines material from other Dungeon Fantasy volumes, and Pyramid, into a single book, and adds some new material too.

It starts with templates: the standard Barbarian, the Rage Barbarian who's focused on berserk-like actions but with a number of options for ways to channel that (spellcasting, animal transformation, etc.), the Savage Warrior who's more of a war-leader, and the Survivor who's entirely focused on the wilderness, acting as a scout. Lenses such as Berserker, Refined Savage, Sea Raider, Shirtless Savage and Short Barbarian allow further customisation, with side notes explaining how to achieve particular styles of barbarian (like an armoured fighter, a flail specialist, or an unarmed combat type). Next comes Cross-Training, which lets barbarians take on some abilities from other classes (barbarian-bard, barbarian-druid, etc.)

Power-Ups make up chapter two, with things to add on to an existing character: perks like Mountain of Meat and Battle Cry, and new abilities such as Bear Hug and Bone Breaker. Rage Power is a new power modifier with special abilities, both spellcasting and shouts of power. As a GURPS author I find the technical aspects of these power builds fascinating.

The final chapter is Gear: new things for barbarians to drink, paint on themselves, and fight with.

I've said before that I think the basic dungeon bash is better catered for now by computer games than by actual live RPGs. I still feel that way, but if I wanted a dungeon-bashing RPG then GURPS Dungeon Fantasy is definitely the approach I'd take. Since I'm not, though, what I'll get out of this is some interesting power builds, and lists of skills to use as suggestions if I run a less-over-the-top fantasy campaign.

I probably wouldn't have bought this if I weren't a GURPS completist, but there's still interesting stuff here for the non-Dungeon-Fantasy player. Dungeon Fantasy Denizens 1: Barbarians is available from Warehouse 23.