[RPM] [Sorcery] Merging the Systems
 

This bit over in the release thread for GURPS Thaumatology: Sorcery intrigued me, but I'd like to take it a step further. One issue with it is that Powers (including Sorcery) function differently from RPM Rituals - you can't "hold" a Sorcery Fireball, or deliver it with a punch rather than by flinging it, but you can do both of those things with an RPM Fireball. Another issue is that the methods build the spells differently - a 3d Sorcery Fireball is Innate Attack 3d (Burning, Sorcery -15%) [13], while a 3d RPM Fireball is Greater Create Energy (6) + External Damage 3d Burning (0) = 18 energy (6x3).

I'd prefer to have unity in build (so that each ritual doesn't run the risk of needing to be built twice) and effect. I personally prefer the way RPM rituals are built and work to a Powers approach, although I see the need to maintain the Ritual component of the Sorcery modifier (the bit about gestures, words, and/or FP cost) to prevent Known Rituals from being superpowers.

Ideally, I'd like to have an energy cost to character points conversion factor. I realize no factor is going to be perfect - Powers and Rituals are simply built too differently. For example, we see above that with a 3d fireball, (Energy/1.4) or so will give us an appropriate character point cost. If we bumped this up to 6d, the Sorcery build is [26] and the RPM build is 30 energy - (Energy/1.15) would be a more appropriate conversion factor here. On the other hand, No-Smell (Sorcery 13) is worth [63], but building it under RPM is either 60 energy or 201 energy, depending on if the GM requires the Altered Traits, or if Greater Destroy Matter alone (along with Subject Weight, Range, and Duration) is sufficient to remove scent.

I'm personally leaning toward using (Energy/2) to determine character point cost, primarily because it makes the math extremely easy - divide energy by 10 to determine cost as an Alternate Ability. What do others think?

Re: [RPM] [Sorcery] Merging the Systems
 

I wanted to post something very similar. I think RPM's casting system is waaaay better than Sorcery's, but the latter is much better at spell design, since it relies on a more robust set of rules.

So I'll anxiously wait for people's input. I'm actually surprised that Ghostdancer hasn't shown up yet. He's usually very quick at answering RPM threads.

Re: [RPM] [Sorcery] Merging the Systems
 

I'm pretty sure Ghostdancer is a set of identical triplet authors with how much O.C. he writes.

Re: [RPM] [Sorcery] Merging the Systems
 

Also, something just came to mind. If you want to maintain some sort of Greater/Lesser Effect distinction, you could use different rates to convert the cost. Something like: if the spell deals up to 3d external damage, its energy cost is [point cost/2], if it deals more damage than that, it becomes [point cost].

Re: [RPM] [Sorcery] Merging the Systems
 

I've actually done all the work for you in Pyramid #3/66: The Laws of Magic (pp. 12-13). Simply use the the rules for Ritual Powers to figure out the cost and go from there.

It's been a hard couple of weeks, I've slept about 67 hours in the last 14 (going on 15 days). Writing has been productive, but I'm slipping into madness. I finally got nearly 8 hours of sleep last night so I'm almost back to par.

We aren't. I mean, I'm not.

Re: [RPM] [Sorcery] Merging the Systems
 

My intention is to handle it from the opposite direction, converting from energy to character point cost, in which case the Greater/Lesser Effect bit is already built in. If you wanted to go from the opposite direction, the points -> energy conversion should always be the same, but boosting the cost of high levels (that is, beyond Lesser) of effect on the points side may be appropriate.

That version (which I hadn't noticed before, so thanks for pointing it out) is essentially the same as the RPM+Sorcery system I quoted PK on, with some minor nuances added in. While it's a solid system, it's not what I'm looking for, as it still requires the ritual be built twice, in two different ways - as an RPM Ritual, and as a Power. The Power still functions differently from a Ritual - the example Fireball doesn't have the option of being delivered via touch. I want something where you can build the ritual once, as an RPM Ritual, and allow the character to pay points to make it an innate part of themselves rather than a ritual they have to gather energy for. It's meant to continue functioning exactly as an RPM Ritual.

Pah, the meatbags should know by now that you're an AI designed for churning out Pyramid articles.

Re: [RPM] [Sorcery] Merging the Systems
 

Unfortunately, there's really no direct conversion between RPM energy and the GURPS advantage system. So if you really want to "convert" between the two like that, you've got to do the following:

1. Accept that what you're doing is going to be 100% fiat.

2. Decide which of the two is your standard. Are you going to build every spell as an RPM ritual, or are you going to build every spell as a sorcery ability?

3. Come up with some ratio between the two that seems to produce fairly sane results.

4. Playtest, playtest, playtest, and keep tweaking step 3's ratio -- or come up with a more complex formula ("full cost = 11 + (energy/8.4)") -- until you get the results you want.

I'm afraid that I don't have any specific answers for you past step 1.

Re: [RPM] [Sorcery] Merging the Systems
 

And soon...books. Sooo many books. As many as I can as much as I can. :-)


I'm afraid that PK has the right of it here. It's like trying to turn fruit juice back into fruit. It's easily done one way (Sorcery > RPM), but not so much the other (RPM > Sorcery). Good luck. :-)

Re: [RPM] [Sorcery] Merging the Systems
 

So... What about the points->energy conversion ratio? Any guesses as to what would be a reasonable number?

Re: [RPM] [Sorcery] Merging the Systems
 

Well, I would start with Energy Reserve X (One Ritual Only, -80%) [X] numbers. You just need some other way of regenerating your Energy Reserve really freaking fast or upping the cost of the Sorcery-Ritual-Advantage in order to make up for that. But, anyway, my point is that I would start there.

Re: [RPM] [Sorcery] Merging the Systems
 

Done.

The former.

This is, of course, my current issue. Some experimentation indicates (energy/2) is about right - it overcharges for some spells (like Amplify Injury or Death Touch - these would be around [15] each with Sorcery, but are [32] and [24], respectively, under my proposal), undercharges for some (Fireball would be [13] with Sorcery, and is [9] with my system), and is just right for some others (Air Jet and Alertness are [9] and around [7], respectively, in both systems).

Yeah, I was hoping for some ideas to get close to something workable before going to this step. A more complex formula - particularly one that is different for different builds - might get us something very close to perfectly accurate, but would be annoying and probably negate the whole point of simply converting energy->character points.

An interesting concept. That's [0.6]/level, and would be set up as an Alternate Ability to 80% of the cost of Magery and Ritual Adept (as in the process you're essentially reducing those to One Ritual Only). I've always felt that burning 1 FP for an "instant" energy gathering is probably fair, so you're arguably hovering close to my (energy/2) guideline, although recharging is likely going to either cost more than 1 FP or take longer than being merely instant. It appears I'm in the right ballpark - (energy/1.5) might be closer to the mark, but (energy/2) makes the math a lot easier.

Re: [RPM] [Sorcery] Merging the Systems
 

It has occurred to me that a merging of the two systems would look very similar to the system in GURPS Voodoo: The Shadow War.