[PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

From over here:
If Low-Tech also covered political organization, economic systems, everyday crafts, medical technology, military tactics, and maybe even some population dynamics couldn't it pad out 240 pages?

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Oh My Good Lord, No!

Kromm hypothizes Low-Tech will be replaced by Fantasy-Tech (or something like that). I can't hide my disappointment, and I must contribute to spread my little word.

I was so eagerly waiting Low-Tech, it's about research and accuracy. Now I'm scared as hell. What's Fantasy-Tech? How can you prevent it being a mess, with all kinds of (weird, fantasy) ideas mixed together: mithril? It's sooooo setting dependent!

I don't want 100 pages of material I'm not going to use. And I don't want the book to turn into a fantasy gear collection -- tied to very specific, arbitrary assumptions. I want solid information on economy, agriculture, society and technology. Also mixing real world and fantasy will inevitably change the tone of the book, sort of D&Desque compendium -- with virtually no hope to get armors made right.

You say there is not enough material?

You can add Pyramid articles (Matt Riggsby and Mortimer wrote a lot of good articles) and material from the historical (TL0-3) sourcebooks; review, revise and update them to fourth edition. There are plenty of good informations about society, technology and human sciences in the following:

• GURPS Egypt
• GURPS Greece
• GURPS Imperial Rome
• GURPS Celtic Myth
• GURPS Middle Ages
• GURPS Arabian Nights
• GURPS Camelot
• GURPS Robin Hood
• GURPS Ice Age
• GURPS Japan
• GURPS Russia
• GURPS Vikings

Also you can include a Mass Combat system for archaic warfare.

Please give GURPS Low-Tech the treatment it deserves. Please.

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

You tell 'em!

Didn't Stoddard say that the reason he included orichalcum in Fantasy was to have a more generic/mythic version of mithral? Besides isn't mithral part of the Tolkien estate?

This is where I'm confused. You could write 240 pages on the gathering patterns of stone-age tribes, or the development of the guild system or social organization in the Roman Empire. I think Hal has written 240 pages on the economics of medievil villages in this forum alone! Really I don't see how there is a shortage of this kind of useful information. If this version of Low-Tech does not finally fix the armor weights, I predict there is going to be one seriously PO'd Dan Howard.

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

One more thing:

I personally would find a gamer oriented discussion of agriculture, economics, medicine, social classes ect. much more useful than weapon stats. It is a lot easier for me to look up the weight of a pollarm in the Wallace collection than it is for me to figure out how many surgeons there are in a 8th century kingdom, what they can do, who they treat, and how they are paid. Information on military esoterica is much more accessible than sociological data, IME.

Which is not to say that I don't want the sharp n' pointies. I do. I just don't think that a lot of fantastical gear is really needed. After all, it's setting dependent and it can be extrapolated from real equipment.

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

At this point, I've given up hope that the SJG team can be influenced to alter their decided-upon course(s) of action (or rather, publication) by virtue of posts made to this message board. There are undoubtedly many reasons for this, not the least of which is the fact that everyone always wants something different.

So . . . is this just a bull session, or does anyone think that their opinion will have any effect upon what does or does not get published? I'm just wondering, because I see a lot of posts like this, and they never amount to much more than mental masturbation.

I'm not trying to be a party-pooper, but I think you should consider the potential fruitlessness of this debate before you devote too much time to it.

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

As Fantasy-Tech doesn't even have an author assigned yet, it is certainly possible to influence it. GURPS books have been changed due to playtester concerns after they've been written, for cryin' out loud.

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Doktor,

Kromm was pretty esplicit, they haven't settled with Fantasy-Tech, so I think our feedback can mean something to SJG. I'm not surprised they do not changed their mind when a project had already started. But now the situation is different.

Give feedback, folks.

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

I hate to be a voice of dissent among those opposed to Fantasy-Tech, but I think FT is a good idea in all but name. I'd prefer the concept of Fantasy Tech, but to retain the Low Tech moniker. The additional fantasy material should be clearly marked as such, by sidebox or chapter as necessary. The name Fantasy-Tech to me implies something like TL5+1, rather than TL0-4.

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Look, if it has some fantasy stuff, I'm not going to have kittens but if it doesn't at least:

• Fix the armor weights once and for all
• Have weapon and armor customization rules
• Cover demographics to some extent
• Cover non-military (medicine, agriculture, manufacturing ect.) technology at each TL

then I will be very disappointed.

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Yep, I definitely agree.
A chapter or two on fantasy stuff is fine, as long as it's clearly marked, but the prime juicy parts of the book should be those four.
As well as more information on things like X-bows at different TL levels, after all a TL2 X-bow is not the same as a TL4 X-bow.

Besides, Fantasy-Tech is a lousy name.

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Counting index, Low Tech came in at the old standard of 128 pages. Add in stuff from the various historical worldbooks and Pyramid articles, update everything for 4e, and add in a chapter or two focusing on fantasy materials and equipment and there should be enough for new standard of 240 pages. If there isn't, you can always add a chapter of weird or anachronistic items that otherwise don't fit.

But I think the name Low Tech should stay. While a fantasy campaign GM will readily identify a book named Low Tech as a useful resource, a name like Fantasy Tech might cause that same book to get overlooked by a GM working up a historical campaign. (Yes, I know that historicals are only a small percentage of what fantasy is...but we are out there nevertheless.)

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Although it might be considered as padding by some, one thing that I think could be added to Low-Tech is something that many people overlook as a driving element of low-tech times, architecture. Illustrations with detail and schematics will be needed.
Matt Riggsby did his GURPS architecture, but with some to the sharp minds that SJ has on the hook, that work could be expanded.
As for the arguement that Low Tech shouldn't include Fantasy Tech, please consider that although its basis may come from reality elements, GURPS needs to remain a Universal system and there are going to be people running a variety of games, everything from non-fantasy to high fantasy that need Low-Tech. For the elements that deviate from reality, the good old TLX+Y nomenclature will keep things clear and provide good quality material for a wide variety of players.

RH

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

I'm curious about the fantasy stuff -- Kromm wrote 100 pages, ouch! What would you include?

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Agreed, that should be the core of the book.

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

I liked the format and coverge of material in GURPS Low-Tech much better than GURPS High-Tech. The latter read like Progress of Weapons with some little bits on how the rest of technology and how it works (and with society) and progressed. So for 4e I hope that *both* Low and High tech are more than just lists of weapons and armor. Perhaps more material on alternative tech possible at each tech level but not found on Earth (or not really developed) and more detailed examination of some of the tech in Low-Tech, along the lines of 3e High-Tech and more guidelines on how to use the book for exceptions (cultures like the Aztecs with several TLs present at the same time) and for cultures that don't develop the same as Earth.

A problem with combining Fantasy tech with Low tech is that to me, not all Fantasy tech is low tech. What about sub-genres like Urban Fantasy, Planetary Romance, and Science-Fantasy? So is the intent to split Fantasy bits up into each X Tech book, based on TL?

Personally I'd split all the Fantasy stuff into a seperate book (Fantasy Tech or Magic Tech or Magic Items?) along with more coverage of creating magic items, etc. if needed, if the Tech books can be beefed up. That would mean a fantasy gamer might be buying a Fantasy book with 1-2/3rds of material they may not want though. ><

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

You aren't going to gain much from the historical worldbooks. Believe me, I went through every single worldbook I owned—which was the great majority of the historical sourcebooks—back when I was revising Low-Tech, picking out useful information from the chapter on gear. There isn't much material to be found there that didn't get into the existing version of Low-Tech. Except for the really wild stuff in GURPS China, hardly any of which was properly authenticated.

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

I like the idea of Fantasy Tech and think it would be a smart move on marketing such a book in terms of what types of campaigns people tend to play. But I do agree that the name Fantasy-Tech kind of is misleading.

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

I certainly hope that the new Low Tech will have even more of the sorts of goodies that the old one had (the 3e Low-Tech was good but a bit brief, and armour weights weren't fixed, for example). I wouldn't mind some fantasy/cinematic technology in it, as long as it is clearly marked and doesn't take up too much space from the real world things. Making up fantasy equipment is relatively easy compared to doing the research for the everyday aspects of a preindustrial society. Low Tech may have less gadgets to cover than the other tech books, but the details of preindustrial society, economics etc. should make up for it.

If worldbuilding advice etc. will go somewhere else, of course, I wouldn't mind more of Low Tech going to fantasy gear.

I am very hopeful about a real High Tech, rather than GURPS Guns getting written, incidentally. The firearms rules were interesting and covered some gaps in the rules, but as several have said they drowned everything else out. The lack of generic weapons didn't help matters.

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Hey, please remember a few things:

• I simply suggested that this was one possible strategy. We haven't an author, a firm title, a concrete plan, or anything. I only even suggested this because people were poking around and I'm not fond of keeping secrets.
• I did not say that the Low-Tech material would get less space than in 3e. Au contraire . . . we could boost it from 128 pages to 140-150 pages and still have almost 100 pages to fill.
• Contrary to what everyone but Bill Stoddard has said, the low-tech material in the 3e historical worldbooks is included in that 128 pages of Low-Tech for 3e. Bill is right, and he should know -- he compiled it all.
• Historical gamers are few and far between. We barely broke even on historical worldbooks (and didn't, on some . . .). Fantasy gamers are legion. Trying to sell a book on low-tech economics and demographics in the current games market would be laughable. Sorry, but it's true.

If you analyze all of that, you'll realize that the extremely hypothetical book would have more low-tech content than Low-Tech for 3e, cover all the tech material from 3e historical worldbooks, and still add fantasy material. The main benefit of calling it Fantasy-Tech would be that, you know, people would buy it. This doesn't mean that less of the tech would be realistic . . . for most gamers who aren't demographics and economics nuts -- that is, almost all of them -- "low-tech armor, tools, transportation, and weapons" = "fantasy armor, tools, transportation, and weapons."

Those who want realistic analyses of crop yields, etc., are welcome to write e23 or Pyramid items. Fixing adventure-useful gear -- like armor, tools, transportation, and weapons -- was always on the agenda for Low-Tech for 4e. Specialized historical economics and demographics were never on said agenda. The entire Tech series always was and always will be catalogs of gear. That's what those books are for. Specific historical info is topical for historical worldbooks, which are now potential e23 material.

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Of course. Just like Low-Tech for 3e, it'll cover armor, weapons, and non-military tech. And sure, it can make fixes. So far, we're still playing within the 128 pages of Low-Tech for 3e, though. We're just tweaking a few numbers and stats.

Not just no, but hell, no. It's a tech book. Tech books are catalogs of tech. Demographics no more belong in Low-Tech or its replacement than in High-Tech. And High-Tech will be a catalog . . . just not "all guns, all the time" this time around. The place for analyses of crops, towns, etc., is appropriate historical worldbooks on e23.

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Sure. But it isn't remotely topical for a tech catalog. The Tech books are catalogs, it's really that simple. We're not discussing GURPS Societies here (and not discounting something like that, either).

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

A name like "Fantasy Gear" or something like that might be better.

In any case, I'd be really excited about such a book. In addition to...

... and things such as data for materials such as adamantium, moon silver and orichalcum (expanding on what is given in Fantasy), it could include a better way of handling gameworld economics at low tech levels- for example, by simply giving a price for each TL (which is simply done by adding four columns of prices to the chart) and proposed costs of living per TL (and possibly per degree of a society's organization/urbanization such as Imperial Rome vs Dark Ages).

I wonder, however, who'd be both qualified and willing to write such a gem...

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

But would that distinction make sense in this case?

I mean, with 240-p.-books, I can hardly imagine filling it all with stat and price charts. Not even 3e Low Tech is only that, it also includes some additional information to allow the reader to understand the environment that the tools were developed for. Why not expand on that a litte for those who might care? Those who just want to look up their customized "chain mail of moon silver" will find it in there anyway, having some 40-80 pages with GM aid of the proposed kind won't bother those people...

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

I believe what Sir Pudding wanted to emphasize is the "weapons and armor customization" part, with a very fat C. Low Tech in 3e listed lots of stuff, but it did not tell us how to make a plate armor with twice the DR or one-third the weight, for example.

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Aren't you confusing tech and gadgets? Three-shift agriculture is technology, but it's not gagdets is what I'm saying. I loved Low-Tech but OTOH I understand if you want to make a profit from the books.

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Sorry if I was at all unclear: The purpose of Tech books is gadgetry, yes. This has nothing to do with confusing "tech" and "gadgets." It has to do with there being a long tradition of GURPS books with Tech in the title being catalogs. Note very carefully that I did not discount other books on societies. In point of fact, there's at least one brewing that probably will pick up societies. I'll let the author comment if he wishes. That book isn't a Tech book, that's all.

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Frankly, Kromm is right, some of the minutae that power GMs (and I include myself in that group) find cool is dry as dust for most players. Agriculture and population growth and migration patterns are all fine for world building and opperation, but is that what your game sessions are about, is that what the players want?
(Odd vissions of poeple sitting around quietly rolling dice and scribbling on paper swim before my eyes, one triumphantly thrusting his fist in air with a cry of glee, then yelling, "YES! A bumper crop for the shire thanks to three field rotation!!! How many points is that worth?") :)

That data has a place and a use, but I think it belongs in Pyramid. If fact I think that would make a great e23 book, "The Best of Pyramid World Building" or some such.
I'm not going to bust Kromm's huavos on this and I don't think others should either. Face it, when was the last time that Kromm, Pulver, Master, JS, and so on didn't deliver? When did you feel you got screwed to the post? There are always going to be armchair editors (geek varient of armchair quarterbacks) but I have yet to find a book that I didn't get my money worth. These folks are professionals, they've proven their chops, they ask for respectful input and are responsive to their audience. I think they deserve more trust than some folks give them.

RH

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

I agree I been long waiting of something like GURPS Societies as a homebrewer. Ever sense I have was introduced into GURPS quality books its been one of my dream books to get published, and would join my 1e AD&D wilderness survival guide, FASA Star Trek Game Operations Manual, and GURPS Space is "any system World design kit". I would be greatly disappointed that it would treated as Filler for a Tech book 8(

GURPS Fantasy 3ed (For 4th Edition) treatment if anything heightened my Want for this book to be a GURPS book.

Edit: Hyrneson it would not be an in play book, but a design book like Space and Fantasy. A Guide so that you not blind sided by would assumption that take your campaign in a direction you did no want the world to be like.

it for when you PCs start using the Hero's rep for Social Power...

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Mithril might well be. Mithral, however, is a silvery metal, not unlike Tolkein's mithril, that appears in D&D.

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

I don't have access to the current low-tech to know if it already has this, but i would quite like to see the coverage of the various types of weapons with good clear scaled diagrams, histories, why they get developed, common usage (both tactics and stance etc), strengths and weaknesses etc. I'm not normally a weapons nut and as a result a sword is an axe is a hammer is a glave. If i had a bit more information than just it does X damage of type Y and reaches Z*, i would be more keen to use this sort of information in my games, especially when designing the military side of a given culture.

Secondly, I don't really see the problem with adding in the fantasy tech element, clearly marked of course. And the book really should have a 'tech' in the title to give it orthogonality with the rest of the series if there are going to be 3 or 4 other Tech books (Bio, High, Ultra).

*yes, i am aware that i am making a gross and unfair oversimplication of a GURPS stat block

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Personally, I think this has something to do with how much an individual matters in the world. A pre-industrial superheroine with form-fitting armor and a body by Ron Spencer is usually a lot more fun to play than Nameless Conscript #3,455,671, whose 15 minutes of fame will be as an autopsied skeleton in an equally nameless History Channel documentary.

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

I'm primarily a fantasy gamer, yet I would be much more interested in a book of low-tech rather than fantasy-tech. I prefer to add my own fantasy, and gear based on standard GURPS magic would be of very little use to me.

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Oh really ... take a look at ICE's ".. and a 10 foot pole", nothing but price lists for each period in history.

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Well, I'd thought I'd add a couple things:

I picked out two archaeological texts from my bookshelf. Ancient North America (Brian Fagan) is over 500 pages long and describes just the societies and technologies in North America during the 12,000 (or so) years between initial settlement and European contact. A Guide to Artifacts of Colonial America (Ivor Noel Hume) covers, what in GURPS terms, is TL 4 and part of TL 5, and weighs in at 319 pages. I probably read over 1000 pages of articles on just Classic period Maya ceramics for my thesis. So the information to fill a 240 page book (with illustrations) is out there, but parsing out what's useful in a historical or fantasy game and putting it in a form that is useful and digestible to gamers is the challenge. I can't imagine how Classic Maya ceramics technology and Colonial wig curlers would really be all that useful to gamers. But weapons, traveling kits, traps and ships could be covered in more detail. I, personally, am fairly indifferent to being able to customize a broadsword, but a more through discussion of transportation technology and the sort of boots and backpacks adventurers are likely to have would be very useful to me, were I inclined to run a Historical or Fantasy game.

I like the idea of starting with the old Low-Tech's equipment descriptions and lists and expanding them out too 150 pages, then adding 100 pages of fantasy equipment and explanations of how various degrees of fantasy would affect everyday life.

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

<donning the Mere Fan hat>

I suspect that if Fantasy Tech got a subtitle, there could be a nod to "from realistic to fantastic" or some such?

<taking off the Mere Fan hat>

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Quoted for Truth.

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Kromm,

the old Low-Tech isn't a gear catalog (weapons, armors, tools, equipment, vehicles). It has a lot of useful information about environment, technologies, society, learning, warfare and transportation. I want the new book to expand upon these things.

As other posters pointed out, there is a lot of material to to fill the gaps. The following is a list of things that need to be added or greatly expanded, off the top of my head:

• Arms and Armors Customization rules.
• Specialized Arms and Armors Breakage rules.
• Arms and Armors Size and Scaling rules.
• Detailed Arms and Armors descriptions.
• Arms and Armors illustrations.
• Expanded bow/crossbow/arrows rules.
• Archaic Mass Combat Rules.

You said High-Tech is so packed that you have to publish the Firearms Design System as a separate product. Well, if you have space to fill, you have the opportunity to include a fully fledged Archaic Weapon Design System.

I don't want Fantasy in a tech book. I can make Fantasy myself, it's far, far easier to come up with fancy stuff, than research historically accurate information. I don't want 100 pages of random, arbitrary ideas.

Expand upon the old Low-Tech, add Pyramid material, gear illustrations and descriptions, the items discussed above, and you are almost done. If you still need to fill space, maybe add a chapter about common fantasy gear (sigh), but please keep the book focused on low tech and historical accuracy.

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

GURPS Fantastic Cities is on the "future releases" page. I'm guessing it's what you're looking for, as well as containing some information on societies.

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

I don't like the "Fantasy-Tech" title at all.
I wouldn't know what to expect from that- what is fantasy tech?

Is is technology of an alternate history?
Gadgets involving materials like mithril or adamantite?
Something along the lines of Steamtech for fantasy?
Historically incorrect but cinematically popular things (like the infamous chainmail-bikini)?

As I understand it, Magic items will be handled separately- so what would a Fantasy Tech item be?

So- I can't imagine a title like that would indeed attract fantasy gamers; just adding the "fantasy" tag to a product probably won't be enough or the right thing to do.

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

And either would be a case of reading someone too literally. The battleaxe could be made of cheese and still illustrate my point. ;)

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

So, when exactly is the last time that anyone actually read 3e Low Tech?

First of all, I disagree that it's a catalog of gadgets, and if the 4e equivalent is keeping all of the information that is present in 3e, I think there is already quite a lot of discussion regarding the infrastructure that supports the gadgets. If anything, I would like to see MORE space devoted to lists of equipment with prices and game stats. However, rather than putting them all in the last 10 pages, perhaps they could be separated out by TL and placed near the appropriate bits of text discussion in the relevant chapter.

Also, I found the discussion of technologies in each of the TL chapters to be overly attached to particular cultures, which is fine if that happens to be the culture you're interested in for that TL, but not so good otherwise. I suggest that the 4e book keep the format of having the four sections; one for each TL within the scope of the book, but broaden the discussion to talk about the achievements, abilities and limitations of each TL in more general terms, then somewhere in each section, include as large and exhaustive list as you can of times and places that fit this TL.

e.g. TL2 Scandinavia ??? AD - ??? AD
Roman Republic/Empire ??? BC - ??? AD
Central Europe (France and Germany) ??? AD - ??? AD
etc.

Or perhaps have only one chart/table, in a prominent location, with an entry for each cultural/geographic region, and a brief paragraph detailing its overall technological progress at various dates, and including notes about deviations from overall TL in specific areas. e.g. Scandinavia can generally be considered to be TL0 until about ??? BC, then TL1 until ???. The early Viking period (~400AD - 700AD) is mostly TL2, but definitely TL3 in the area of sea transport and possibly in some specific areas of arms and armour technology... etc.

This way, no matter what cultural inspiration the reader has in mind, they can identify with it and read the more general information through a lens that resonates with them. This also caters more to the reader that is more interested in Fantasy gaming than Historical gaming, as it allows them to more readily adapt the elements from each TL to an entirely fictional culture.

Then, at the end of each TL section, have about 10-15 pages devoted exclusively to Fantasy considerations and how myth and magic might affect the technology at this level, as well as lists of fantastic/magical gadgets that fit best with that TL, to supplement the more mundane items in the main part.

So, if you keep all of the supporting information that exists in 3e, but generalise it so that it is less culture-specific, increase the information on arms, armour, adventuring supplies, and transport, integrated with weights, prices and game stats throughout the book, and supplemented with game-relevant rules on customisation (especially with respect to melee weapons, armour and bows/crossbows), and tack on 10-15 pages of Fantasy-specific stuff at each TL, I think you should have more than enough to fill 240 pages.

In particular, expanding on game rules for smithing, armoury and bow-making, both in mundane and fantasy aspects, would be invaluable.

Finally, expanding the Job Table from the 3e version to be consistent with existing rules on wealth by TL, and including info on Cost of Living by TL, that would be great.

...

...

Yep, I think I'm about done.

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Let me point out that what Fantasy Gear is to Low-Tech gear, Superscience is to Hard Science. But I assume no one wanted Ultra-Tech without the superscience part, right? So I can see Fantasy Gear fit right into Low Tech.

While I'm personally very interested in a gamer-friendly version of demographics and stuff, I think this is so important and massive it merits a book of its own, not just a chapter (or a text box) somewhere in a book. To those who can't wait at all, there are a few tidbits in Infinite Worlds on how to design societies and whole libraries on social history in the RL.
So I agree with Rogue: Gurps Societies would be a coooool thing. A definite buy. Though it'd need a catchier title :)

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

No, not quite done.

I see I was pre-empted a little in pointing this out...

...but I think, given the marketing realities pointed out by Sean and Paul, I think that expanding on these areas might be pushing the boundaries of real expectations, into wishy-dreamy territory. As I said, maybe not expand on it, but *definitely* don't rduce it, just re-phrase the information to make it more generally applicable and less culture specific.

Yep. 'nuff said on that, I think.

Again, the message I'm getting from what Sean and Paul have said is that this just isn't realistically gonna happen. Still, Luther has a point, to a certain extent, in that the mundane "this is how a sword works" kind of stuff is more necessary to those whose primary focus is Fantasy, than the Fantasy stuff is necessary for us history nerds. So, package the whole book as "Tech for Mediaeval Fantasy", make 3/4 of the book the realistic, historically accurate stuff us really vocal and annoying folks are drooling for more of, but *present* it as the necessary foundational information that the 1/4 of the book that is aimed at the Fantasy Gamer market is built upon. I mean, Fantasy Gamers (TM) need swords and bows and armour and stuff too, right? So why not write up all the historically accurate stuff as a foundation, then add on the section that says "and here's how you make that TL2 mail hauberk into the Incredibly Wonderful Chain-Mail (sic) Armour of the One True King." (!!!) (!)

BTW, for what it's worth, I have a friend who has been playing d20 all his life, who told me recently that, while the whole idea of GURPS as a gaming system kinda turns him off, he did go out and buy Low Tech, which he finds incredibly useful and might even have gotten him thinking about giving GURPS as a whole another look-see. I know, I know, "my friend" doesn't even count as a percent of a percent of a percent of your marketing figures, but there you go.

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

I disagree, Ultra-Tech is already about fictional stuff, it's all about fictional stuff. Low-Tech is about historical tech. One of the most difficult and time consuming task, as a GM, is researching and finding good historical information useful in gaming, without all the extra, boring details.

Low tech info will help to save my time; fantasy tech stuff will not.

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

I suspect Kromm et al do not agree to this sharp division. If they would, we wouldn't need the Superscience ^, right? After all, all scifi stuff is fictional, as you correctly point out.

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

No, it isn't right.

All sci-fi stuff is fictional, that's a fact. This fictional stuff can be more or less likely to happen.

Low tech happened, and you need to research for it, and searching takes time, and I (as many of you) don't have a lot of gaming time. So putting fantasy stuff into the book, detracts from its utility.

Personally I don't want fantasy stuff into Low-Tech, not even a page. It already have GURPS Fantasy, Fantastic Cities, Modern Fantasy, Banestorm, (a likely) Magic Items and so on. However if having a (little) content of fantasy tech is the only way to get the book done, I'll resign. But, keep the title Low-Tech, I can already envision arguments shot down, hypothetical example:

"Hey, Mr. Playtester Complainer, the book is not GURPS Realistic Historical Stuff, it's Fantasy Tech, the armors and weapons should be fun and gameable above all"

OMG. Beware of Fantasy-Tech title.


PS: has someone a clear idea of what's fantasy tech?

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Kromm pointed out this wasn't the actual title, but more like a working title. Let's not get too worked up about the title of the book, OK?

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Of course, and my point is every title that contains the word FANTASY or not explicitly says it's about realistic stuff, can change the tone of the book.

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Explain this, please. I don't see how having fantasy tech (which I presume will be clearly marked) makes the historical information less useful, any more than putting information about mythology into GURPS Greece invalidated the information about actual Greek history.

Well, it should. A cumbersome and dull book does not serve the game or the people who play it. The simulationism should be there for the people who want it, but it absolutely should not be the primary goal.

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

You seem to be misinterpreting what Andrew said for your own argument.

As I read it, he's saying (to paraphrase), "Gameability and fun should take precedence over simulationism in GURPS." You're interpreting this as, "Simulationism should not be a consideration."

In other words, yes, things like armor weights, etc., should be as accurate as possible. However, if there's ever a need to choose between a 100% accurate presentation of something and a gameable and fun presentation of it, GURPS should/will choose the latter.

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Low-Tech didn't have a version-control problem. I was the Line Editor then and it was on my watch -- I know the facts. There were a few playtesters who recommended different changes to armor weights, and they didn't reach a consensus in time to affect the published book . . . and there were just as many people who wanted to leave the stats alone. The author couldn't do a lot with multiple, conflicting claims. I didn't read the claims; I simply declared that the book had to get to the printer and cut the Gordian knot by saying, "Too bad they couldn't agree. Leave things alone." Moreover, SJ Games doesn't keep ancient playtest archives. The results of that playtest were gone by the time David and I were drafting 4e, and it's unfair to imply that we were somehow aware of long-lost Low-Tech playtest reports and chose to ignore them. In fact, neither of us even read them the first time. The first genuine opportunity to fix certain items -- if they're indeed broken -- will be the book on low technology for 4e. And whether we title it Low-Tech, Fantasy-Tech, or Cabaret Chicks on Ice is wholly immaterial to the issue of whether we make fixes or not.

I'm quite open to criticism and suggestions, but please don't pass off theory as fact or suggest that we deliberately ignore input just because we can. That's unfair and incorrect. Armor weights were nowhere close to being a solved problem during the Low-Tech playtest, and the Basic Set, Fourth Edition wasn't a natural continuation of that playtest. For the most part, that playtest reached no consensus on armor and its lack of consensus wasn't exactly a great inspiration for David and I to revisit some zipped, 8,000-item news archive from a third party.

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

For the most part I agree with you. However I do think Luther's right in that "Fantasy" can easily become an excuse for zero historical accuracy. We were told armor weights might be fixed in Low-Tech. Now there is not going to be a Low-Tech. Are the following topical for Fantasy-Tech?

• Accurate Armor Weights
• Armor and Weapons Customization
• Civillian Technology (especially agriculture, medicine, finance, and manufacturing)

It seems to me that to each of these you could say "this book is Fantasy-Tech so that real-life stuff isn't relevant."

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Yes. While focusing on historical accuracy and simulationism has garnered GURPS a lion's share of the historical, simulationist gamer crowd, that's a huge share of one of the smallest demographics in gaming. We must reach other gamers or we can say kiss RPGs goodbye at SJ Games. It's like that. The games market is too "soft" for us to afford to rank gameable fun behind anything else. If somebody in the historical simulationism crowd wants to put up $1M-$2M, we'll reconsider.

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Sorry Kromm, I guess I'm out of line. I'll edit my posts. Just please, take a look at actual museum collections before deciding not to change the armor wieghts this time.

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Didn't you read this post?

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Yes, I did. I'm just being overly excitable today I guess. Sorry. Luther got me all worked up. :)

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

With regards to fantasy tech are we talking about TL x+y items, like in the steamtech book?

Shouldn't High-Tech and Ultra-tech also include 'fantasy' items? 'Magitech' or whatever constitutes fantasy items are equally valid for all tech levels?

Then again can magical items be given a tech level? A palantir that allows remote viewing and communication is what TL for example?

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Fantasy Tech also includes the possibly of items that are whole realistic for low tech materials, but require High Tech understandings to conceive 8)

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Don't we have the "Magic Items" series for this stuff?

BTW how popular was Low-Tech? What percentage of fantasy roleplayers (particularly those who don't play GURPS) bought the book and got some use from it? If it was a popular title then it doesn't make sense to upset a winning formula. Make the 4e version the same as 3e but expand it and fix the inaccuracies - such as weapon and armour weights. Scatter a few textboxes with suggestions on what to do if you want to replicate low-tech gear with fantasy materials such as mithril swords, or spidersilk armour, or Essential Wood boats, and it is done. Keep the magic stuff for "Magic Items" or the various Fantasy world books.

Personally I'd rather see a layout that has a separate chapter for each technology rather than for each TL. Have separate chapters on warfare, navigation and sailing, engineering, metallurgy, agriculture, etc. and describe the tech advancement of each technology in the same chapter. Low Tech 3e was no good for world building. If I wanted to work out what sort of agriculture I might want for a certain culture, I have to go through the entire book and pull out the relevant info. Once I have it in front of me then I can decide how advanced to make this culture regarding this particular tech.

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Oooohh... Please tell me you're gonna name it Cabaret Chicks on Ice. That'd settle the title question immediately. Or, I suppose CCoI might make a good title for a Munchkin RPG sourcebook <grin>.
...
Seriously, my 2 cents says go ahead and throw the fantasy stuff in. Make sure that said fantasy stuff is marked as such (TL^ or TL* notation). On the other hand, I'd buy a Tech Through the Ages product (for GURPS or otherwise) that covered the realistic development of technology (and it's related tools, weapons, and equipment). I'd especially like to see something that broke the TL system down a bit into seperate scales:(for example) Materials, Power, Manufacturing, Agriculture, Architechture, Transportation, Communication, Medicine, Social Orginization, etc...

Then you could include a block on each piece of equipment that listed which categorical TL's were necessary to make that equipment possible, available, or easy to get. For instance, no glass and silver mirrors until Materials-3, Manufacturing-5... Aluminum goes from being more valuble than gold to cheap enough to throw away at Materials-5, Power-6. As an assist to the worldbuilding crowd, you can even throw in trinkets like "Social Orginization doesn't go to TL-4 until Agriculture hits TL-4, representing the invention of the horse collar. Once Social Orginization-4 is in place, fewer farmers can feed more non-farmers, so the number of specialists (including full-time troops) goes up by 70%."

And if you ever get the urge to print a 4e GURPS Timeline product, you could throw in a running graphic that shows which categorical TL's are available to which societies at which points in history.
+++|<=== Lord Carnifex ---

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Having fantasy stuff in Low-Tech doesn't make historical information less useful, it makes the book less useful, because there is less space for historical information.
Cumbersome? Dull? What a weak reply from you. Also I never wrote that simulationism should be the primary goal, just that the book should focus on historical accuracy, and as far as gear data this doesn't detract from fun and gameability. Choosing a Fantasyesque title can shift book's focus and become an excuse for poor historical research.

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Well, but you aren't considering the following:

• Arms and Armors size and scaling rules
• Arms and Armors breakage rules
• TL0-3 Mass Combat

Is the book going to include the above?

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Scaling is a good topic . . . but note that it's of no historical value. On Earth, in its history, wars have been fought by precisely one race -- the human one -- and armies have been pretty serious about not accepting too many people who aren't soldier-sized. All told, scaling rules for equipment would be a waste of time in a purely historical book. Fortunately, they're useful in fantasy . . .

Breakage is covered in the Basic Set. Detailed breakage, and rules for armor maintenance, are very likely. No problem.

Mass combat is utterly off-topic. We have a Military book in our future, and mass combat is earmarked for that supplement.

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

I believe Luther is referring to human scaling.
It's rather unrealistic to have armor for a 5'2" 125 lbs Phoenician weigh as much as armor for a 6'4" Norseman.

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Since armor weight affects combat performance (namely, Dodge via encumbrance) and height is a roleplaying decision, canonically unlinked to ST, it's unlikely we'll do this. "Sorry, you're 6'4" and ST 12, so you're hosed next to the 5'4", ST 12 guy" is precisely the sort of simulation > fun decision I refuse to let happen on my watch. It's up there with making all female characters ST 8 or going back to Fat giving extra encumbrance.

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

That's your opinion. I think a guide which includes purely historical sections as well as sections that show how to incorporate this information into a fantasy game would be a hot seller. Like it or not (and you clearly don't), fantasy is far and away the most popular genre for RPGs.

It is my experience and my opinion that as soon as people start talking about wanting more gear, the fun and gameability of the supplement plummets. Bor-r-r-ring. If two swords are almost identical, but one is 90 cm long and one is 95 cm long, I don't care. I can count on all the fingers of my left foot the number of times that distinction would matter in a game I ran or would be interested in playing in. Give a decent representative of a given class of weapon, give stats for any especially interesting variants, and let the rest be handled in an equipment list. ("The foo-sword is just like the bar-sword, except that the grip uses horsehide rather than cowhide.") To me, the important thing is not list after list of barely differentiated gear; the important thing is how to use that gear in a game-appropriate way. And, again, the most popular genre is fantasy, and this is the book that will have the gear most appropriate to a typical fantasy game.

That's what the playtest is for -- get yourself involved in it and make sure that doesn't happen. But don't slag a book that, as far as any of us knows, hasn't even been written yet, just because Kromm proposed a title that you don't like. At least wait for the cover before you judge the book, Luther!

Since you're so hopped up on the title, let me ask this: if the book were still called LOW-TECH but included boxes on how the various gear could be used in a fantasy game -- which, from how I'm reading Kromm's note, is essentially the plan anyway -- would you be as annoyed?

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

That's more of an issue with Dodge really, now isn't it? *grin*

It'd be something which would help pull players into playing more appropriately sized humans.

GM: Sure you can play a 6'4" Roman Legionnaire, just be aware that the general issue armor will not fit you, and the custom built pieces will cost and weigh $xx more.
Player: Um, I think being 5'2" to 5'4" is looking more and more attractive.


Oh, and the real point is that sure if you're 6'4" you may have to be ST 12 to carry that armor, but if you're 5'4" maybe you can get away with only being ST 10 to carry that armor.

Which means you're not penalizing someone for being smaller, and you're not penalizing female characters for choosing not to play bricks.

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

I have no issues with the way encumbrance affects Move and Dodge, sorry.

First, no, you're wrong. It's the perfect way to get the Squad of Four-Foot-Nothing Midgets with ST 18.

Second, it isn't the place of Low-Tech to dictate biomechanics.

The book was never intended to be the Holy Grail of Realism with all the crunchy rules for demographics, human biology, warfare, etc. It was always meant as a gear catalog. That's set in stone, and not open to discussion. It isn't a statement that there won't be books on those topics, however. It's just pointing out that whether we call it Low-Tech, Fantasy-Tech, or Tofurkey, it won't be in the business of talking about human beings, communities, etc. Those are character and campaign issues, for suitable e23 supplements for realism freaks.

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

No. Far less annoyed. If the focus is historically accurate low tech, with fantasy as an addition, and the title isn't fantasyesque, I can make up my mind on the issue.

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

(I disagree that scaling rules are worthless in a historical book: armors had to be sized individually, a ST 15 HP 15 warrior is going to be very different from the average soldier. However you are the Line Editor, and you decide, so . . . )
OK, I can see this topic interesting for a low tech book with fantasy bits in:
Arms and Armors Scaling Rules, From Dwarves to Giants. Are you going to include them?I have Low-Tech 3e in front of me, it's far from being a gear catalog.
Is this going to change with the new 4e version?

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Hey!!! ;-P

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Agreed, but, thinking about it: Maybe the old Low Tech is one of the books that "did not break even"?

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

So, you're judging the book by one small part of its cover, before you even see it?

A bit shallow, perhaps?

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

So to sum up the discussion to this point:

• There will be a GURPS4e book about TL0-4 gear some day, and it will include not only historical, but also Fantasy gear of those TL's.
• That book will not be a "society book". It will be about lots of gear, and gear alone.
• Maybe it will include guidelines and tips for customzing armor and weapons as in "my DR8 plate armor is 1/3 heavier than your DR6 plate armor, and will cost 10% more".
• The name of that book is as yet undecided. (I assume suggestions are welcome?) It might be called "Fantasy Tech" to keep it in line with the "High Tech" and "Ultra Tech" catalog books. That name does not seem to be all too telling to most posters here, though.

Re: Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

It was a joke. (Points at uberthread.)

So that's where the Dwarves come from, they're gaming munchkins.

Not expecting it to be, but a small table with an optional rule for gear modification for height and body type will allow you to outfit anyone from fairies to giants for the fantasy crowd and if it's sufficiently and properly done, everyone else can decide whether or not to apply it to general human builds too.

After all, as a gear catalog, just like any other equipment or clothing catalog, sizes and the ability to customize are pretty important.

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Actually differences in weight proposed by various playtesters of Low Tech 3e might really stem from different DR armor (which is hard to measure for museum pieces, after all), so a set of guidelines to adjust DR, weight and price accordingly could really solve the issue once and for all...

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

No. Read again my posts.

I'm not judging the book, I'm annoyed by the proposed content, the fantasy part. And I'm annoyed by its proposed, hypothetical name, for the reasons I've alredy explained. From the posts here, I'm not the only one who dislikes Fantasy-Tech title.

Do you want to argue that's to early to complain?

Well, no, I don't think so. If we beat the horse at this early stage we are more likely to not beat it again when it will be dead. You are free to disagree, but don't misread my words.

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Oooh!! Yes. I wanna change my vote in favour of this organisation.

(But I still want the discussion to be more generalised, with a separate table/chart/timeline that connects each TL to as many different historical cultures/periods as possible)

Heh. A palpable hit.

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

Low-Tech was one of my better sellers. I believe it has had a second printing, and that's always a good sign.

Re: [PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech
 

I think this is a great idea. I would prefer a purely historical Low Tech. The reason for this is that most so-called Fantasy Tech is just inefficient modifications on historical technology that I could make up myself if I chose to run that style of game. However, a closing section (or boxed text) by TL or culture that describes tech variations or methods for implementing fantasy genre tropes etc. would not be a waste of space, but would make the book more useful since it would now serve two styles of games.