Old-School D&D style game
 

Hello there,

A local Old School RPG group found itself without a d&d GM. They generally play D&D and/or traveller.
I've suggested that I'm happy to run a few old-school dungeons using GURPS.

Obviously Dungeon Fantasy came to mind but two things put me off it in this situation:

1) 250 points characters are complex for beginners
2) Old school 1st level characters aren't that complex

I'm really keen to let GURPS shine so other things I need to figure out:

1) Progression (what's a good progression rate for such a game?
2) Adventure: can you suggest an old published D&D adventure that doesn't involve too many different type of creatures (lots of conversion work) and that they would enjoy?
3) Anything else I should think about and I'm not?

Thank you guys!

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

1. 250 points isn't that complex when using templates
2. DF is ~lvl 5-6 in D&D, which is only a couple murder hobo adventures into most campaigns anyway.
3. ~10 points/session works out ok for D&D leveling.
4. Can't help ya too much on that one, but, some DF players rather enjoy Yrth as their setting. Comes with a nice timeline of events and such.
5. We'll get back to ya on this one!

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

As I recently found out, Dungeon Fantasy does "old school" Dungeons and Dragons better than Dungeons and Dragons. I think you'll think the same after a few sessions.

Not really. While you can't put a DnD level to GURPS points, the templates as listed are probably between 5th and 7th level. When I GMed D&D I rarely started characters below 4 levels and I only remember two GMs who started at level one in nearly 25 years of gaming. That said the "leveling up" dynamic for GURPS is so radically different from D&D that players might actually become frustrated if you start them off at "low level" and use the guidelines for normal advancement (GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 3: The Next Level, p. 42).


No, but they really aren't that much fun either. It's incredibly annoying to play a 1d4 HP mage and die requring you to create a new character. That said, check out GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 15: Henchmen for lower value characters.


To keep it similiar to D&D I'd offer up at least twice what is listed in DF3 so you can "level up" every session.

I always liked Expedition to the Barrier Peaks myself, but Against the Cult of the Reptile God might work better if you use lower-point value characters.

I have a ton of worked up critters on my blog which might prove helpful.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

Thank you for the quick a useful answers.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

+1. I wasn't all that keen on D&D before my GURPS group ran our dungeon tribute game for Gary Gygax seven years ago, and now I use (some variation on) GURPS DF templates and rules for probably half of the games I run, including my current one, because it's such an effective way to ease people into high-powered violent fantasy, even if they're a little iffy on the rules.

ETA: Obligatory link to Mailanka's excellent Homebrew Monster thread.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

I was a huge fan of D&D. Huge. It was my first RPG and it has a special place in my heart. I was in the RPGA and ran Raven's Bluff living campaigns so long...well - it was a long time. I stopped playing D&D when WoTC said "we're doing a new edition" not even a year after I swallowed the need for 3.5. I just quit. Never looked back. My players pretty much did the same. We were over it. Went fully to GURPS. But being able to capture the feel of tunnel-crawling with GURPS didn't occur to us until I demoed it for my local FLGS. They were hooked. Of course, I run DF like I used to run D&D - far more serious than "leveling up." I like to think of it as using Dungeon Fantasy as framework for running "high fantasy." It works quite well and I fully intend to write some on that specific subject since nearly all the other folks who run DF seem to do something very similiar.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

I was working on a GURPS Lite supplement a couple years ago that was a stripped down action fantasy.

Really, you can do it pretty well with just GURPS Lite and the magic rules from the Basic Set. The trick is avoiding advantage and skill bloat.

Characters should look like this:

Fighter 150 points
ST 15 [50];
DX 13 [60];
IQ 10 [0];
HT 13 [30].

Advantages:
Combat Reflexes [15];
Comfortable Wealth [10].

Disadvantages:
Code of Honor (Soldier's) [-10];
Enemy (Orc Champion) [-10];
Over Confidence [-10].

Skills
Axe / Mace 12 [1];
Brawling 14 [2];
Climbing 12 [1];
Broad Sword 14 [4];
Riding 13 [2];
Shield 14 [2];
Spear 12 [1];
Spear Throwing 13 [1];
Swimming 13 [1].

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

You can easily simplify from the DF baseline by making a few alterations to the templates too. Forbid options other than the Knight, Swashbuckler, Wizard, and Cleric for pure oldschoolness and make True Faith w/ Turning mandatory on the Cleric template instead of the usual chunk of character points to choose from various Holy abilities. Or go with the Henchmen that turn into those classes (Squire, Skirmisher, Initiate, and the like).

If you want the oldschool races, the list is pretty simple:
One of the lists chosen from

• Humans only
• Human, Dwarf, High Elf, Halfling
• Human, Dwarf, High Elf, Forest Elf, Half-Elf, Halfling, Half-Orc, Gnome

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

I really love Dungeon Fantasy. Seriously, I have not enough words to say how much I love it.

My only "complain", however, is that unarmed martial arts don't receive enough love, despite the fact that not only D&D but many other games presents monks that use his bare hands in their whacking way. I may be wrong, but at least for what I recall from my PMs/posts to Kromms about unarmed martial artists, it seems he thinks that such character is a foolish way to be a martial artists. Again, I may be wrong.

I also wish to see how good would be a DF wizard using Ritual Path Magic. I never had the chance to play using that system and I wonder how good is RPM to a setting where magic is everywhere. I really would love to try one day. The only thing is that RPG seems much more complicated (and therefore, less newbie-friend) than the standard magic system. Perhaps "sophisticated" would be a better word.

Just wondering... If those DF templates would be equivalent to level 5th or 7th to D&D, what would be a 1st level D&D character to GURPS? 50 points??? How would you create a monk with that?

A level 20 D&D character would be a 1000 cp GURPS character? Geez, I can't even imagine how would be Elminster in GURPS.

That's why there are those templates on Dungeon Fantasy 1. Kromm created them just to make things eaiser. Players just need to customize their characters spending some few points and everything is done. It's not that hard.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

I started running D&D games using 3e GURPS nearly 20 years ago and never looked back. This system is just so much nicer for fantasy ultra-violence than D&D.

Now I'm moving over to GURPS 4e because of course it's better than 3e. Martial Arts adds some great depth to fighters.

I've run everything from 150 point characters, up to 1,000 points and it's always been fun.

I just ran Expedition to the Barrier Peaks and it was great BTW.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

Run, not walk, to the D&D Conversion page at the GURPS Repository.

My personal guideline for converting D&D levels to GURPS CPs is:

GURPS CP = 25 x (D&D level) + 75

Thus, a 1st-level D&D character would be 100 points, a typical "heroic" GURPS character with 150 points would be level 3, while a starting Dungeon Fantasy character would be level 7.

Sounds about right to me.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

A 1st-level D&D character could be anywhere from -100 to 150 points depending on class. Or even way higher with good rolls for high ability scores.

A first-level D&D monk in GURPS could just be Karate(DX)[4]-11, 2-4 points each in a handful of melee weapon skills like Staff and Tonfa, Trained by a Master[35], and Disciplines of Faith(Chi Rituals)[-10]. Just look at the lenses in DF3 and think "apply this to an average joe off the street" rather than "apply this to an accomplished super-competent DF character". Or it could be the full monstrosity in DF1.

A first-level wizard might easily have only Magery 0[5], one of Knife, Thrown Weapon(dart or knife), Shortsword, Broadsword, Axe/Mace, or Staff at DX, one spell known at (IQ)[4]-10, and the Vows: Knives, Darts, and Clubs Only[-5], Do Not Wear Armor[-15], and Do Not Use Shields[-5].

A first-level fighter would likely have almost every weapon skill at DX (everything other than weapons deemed "exotic", all low-tech weapons, all weapons ever, all things that are remotely related to killing people, or four+INT bonus distinct proficiencies depending on edition).

Really we're a lot better off recreating the spirit and flavor of the D&D archetypes in GURPS than we are trying to port them over on a mechanical level. I do think 250 is crazy high as a starting point, but I always was one for preferring to play D&D as first-level characters and generally got bored once we started hitting level 4 or so.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

... And survivability is important. That said, 250 point GURPS Df template characters obviously aren't going to play the same way as 1st level AD&D or D&D3 characters. Probably not like 4th or 5th Edition D&D characters either.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

I saw some discussion on this matter a while back and the general consensus was that 1lvl in D&D would roughly translate to 50-ish pts in Gurps.

The problem though, is that Gurps can't really be measured by points alone. The rule options used and accessible to players, where those points are spent and a lot more plays a much bigger role defining "power" in Gurps.

It's the same old same old 250pts librarian against the 50pts fighter.

What I'll be doing in my soon to start high fantasy campaign is award 1 XP point each session and 30-ish XP pts for completions (quests, archs, major objectives, finish dungeons...)

That way they know they're increasing each session (like Gurps normally is) and also have big bursts of power (like D&D levels).

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

He largely does; apparently it's just not a concept he was regularly exposed to in his gaming history (videogame or otherwise) - at least as competing on equal ground with armed characters. And IRL it's kinda nutty.

It does seem to be basically a special trope of D&D and co. and some kinds of anime/manga (not all - most unarmed friendly settings have everyone unarmed with optional superpowers, not a mixture).

BUT! There was a bit of complaining about the subject on the forum here, which I think brought it up to Kromms and Peter Del'Orto's attention (he'd been on the same page as Kromm AFAIK), and ho, Pyramid to the rescue!

Pyramid vol3 #61 Way of the Warrior has the article "More Power to Dungeon Warriors" (by Peter and Sean) lavishes much attention on the Monk template.

Another idea floated about has been to make a metatrait bundling a vow to fight unarmed and another to fight unarmoured (which is a pretty BIG problem in DF, even more so than real life what with the toxic goop, acid-skinned slimes, man-eating swarms, and so forth). You'd combine them with... something (the suggestion I've seen is the Imbue advantage, possibly limiting it to folks with those disadvantages and even applying Pact to boot).

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

There's one DF adventure, Mirror of the Fire Demon, that you can find at http://www.warehouse23.com/products/...the-fire-demon. No conversions needed.

Kromm has made a few posts that could be useful. In http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...885#post751885 he suggests 50 points + 50 points per level, which would make 250 points a level 4 character.

In http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=84477&page=4 he says that not wearing armor is a -10 point vow as there are spells that grant DR. Not using any DR whatsoever would be -15 points.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

You can also do Dungeon Fantasy on the cheap. You would need to make the templates a full conversion with descriptions and full templates.

When I wanted to create a new world I started with Dungeon Fantasy on the cheap, typed up a full description of each template and racial template. I'm a big fan of Divine Favor so I also converted Clerics to Divine Favor and reworked druids but all fit within the 150 point template.

As the points decrease so do the choices and therefore the complexity. Though the adventures you can do are smaller in scale too.

You should also consider the Mailanka's Homebrew Monster Creator for enemies. I've found it very useful for thinking about enemies.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

If you are going to try to do AD&D in GURPS, I'd make a point of checking out not just the GURPS Dungeon Fantasy series, but also the various Pyramid articles intended to support it. Notably:

• I offer additional quasi-official templates in issues #3/10, #3/36, #3/50, #3/60, #3/64, and #3/68. Other authors offer more in issues #3/13, #3/36, and #3/47. Many of these touch on beloved old-timey character classes.
  
  
• There are useful power-ups in issues #3/19, #3/50, and #3/60, if you need to customize further to get the feel you want.
  
  
• There are higher-powered treasures in issues #3/38 and #3/75, which might be a better match than standard GURPS enchanted items if you want an old-school game.
  
  
• I add more depth to town in issue #3/58, which provides the resources you'd need to track high-level characters into their follower-attracting, title-holding phase.
  
  
• I revisit spell lists in issue #3/60, which many gamers feel is necessary to get a better caster/non-caster balance.
  
  
• As others have said, issue #3/61 is not to be missed if you want more love for barehanded warriors (or really, any warriors).
  
  
• And if you find character points a pain, be sure to check out issue #3/72, where I reinvent the entire series in a menu-based form that makes character creation and advancement easier, vastly simplifies the skill list, and removes the need for detailed accounting from the table.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

I cant second enough that GURPS does old school DF more enjoyably than old school DF does.

To that end, there have been a few conversions done, I did Tomb of Horrors 1E

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=76221


and I think Rasputin did the 3e WHite PLume Mountain

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...1&postcount=14

Note that I did my by the Percentages where as I believe Rasputin did his by 'feel and suitability'.

I know there must be others.....

At any rate, Dungeon Fanasy on the cheap allows you that 'leveling up feeling' and my personal advice is to start at around 150 points.

I dont know if its still available, but someone should do a rigorous write up of Gorgolands gauntlet becasue that module is a helluva good time and should convert quite easily. (Is that one still free?)

Abandon any notions of Points to Level conversions as they will only lead you to madness.

There you have it. You have rules. You have at least 2 adventures. You have players. Assuming you have dice, you're on your way :)

Nymdok
p.s. Eveytime I post these links I get the wild hair to redo Castle Amber....that hair once again is feeling wild....

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

If you want fewer points, there's always Dungeon Fantasy on the cheap.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

Wow even Kromm replied to my thread.
So I've decided that I'm going to build 150 templates based on Dungeons Fantasy 1. I don't own Dungeon Fantasy: Henchmen. Would that save me time creating 150 points templates?

Now I'm thinking about purchasing the famous T1-4: Temple of Elemental Evil... What do you guys think?

PS
I love gurps, in the last month I've run a Cthulhu adventure, a cyberpunk adventure and now I'm looking into a dungeon crawl. Next must be sci-fi :)

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

Almost certainly. The main henchman templates are 125, so you tend could potentially just raise the optional advantage limit and you're good to go.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

Again, someone has already done the job for you.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

Anders that's amazing, thanks.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

Well, it's your game, but... Why just don't use DF 1?

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

Having run quite a bit at low (125-160+ so far) point levels, characters are weak. I'd call 125 points to be 1st level, which dovetails nicely with the templates in DF15. Lots of foes will swamp them faster, but their magic comes back faster, though the limitations in the healing spells will slow them like in D&D.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

That's pretty much why. If they're new to GURPS, the tactical combat might overwhelm them at first. He should stick to the Combat Lite chapter at the end of Characters for the first session or two, then add back in options.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

Wildcard skills are another way to simplify. Knight!, Thief! and Barbarian! (made into a generic Survivor! skill) are pretty cost effective and make good class markers. In general if you want to keep it simple it's mostly a matter of stripping away Advantages and some of the templates.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

While low point value characters are weak, so are 1st level D&D characters (except maybe in 4E). At 3rd level (150 points in my scheme) they stop being utterly fragile, and at 5th level (200 points) they start being fairly tough and competent.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

Well, I don't think it's complex. It's not like they will take 250 cp and start from zero. With all those DF1 templates, in fact they will just spend some few points after all in order to customize their characters.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

I am currently running a long term "DF-style" campaign where we have had so far 173 gaming sessions with normal length of about 9 hours.

The campaign started with 100 point characters and the characters are now almost 2000 points.

What I found was that at least my players appreciate fairly rapid advancement as it gives a feeling of character developing, So I am basically giving 1 point/hour of play+some extra bonus points.

I did find that the Gurps default magic system does not scale well to high points, as it becomes a game of:
fire away as many as possible tries of "save or you lose"-spells, preferably as low as possible cost so you can repeat them many times. Things like:
Sleep: 4 FP and allows a free kill.
Sickness: 3 FP. But the enemy can still run away just not fight.
Basically when a lot of the enemies have saves close to 16, the mage will mostly need defenses to survive and as many as possible tries for the enemy to roll badly and lose.

Other parts of the system do not break at higher points, but actually scale fairly well. (Of course some parts of the system like the sense rolls and stealth are broken from the start...)

The 100 point characters definitely felt like "1st level":ish and the current 1900 point characters feel like maybe "15th-20th level":ish in personal power.

The starting skills were in the 10-14 range, where even the basic actions often failed. Currently the best skills are slightly above 40, with a lot of skills in the 30s, where a mere -10 is a low penalty.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

How does a DF character spend 2000 points? Buying all attributes to 20 only costs 600 points, and buying a few skills to 40 or so is only another 80-ish per skill, so where do the other 1000 or more points go? I ask because I've been fiddling around with creating a "DF supers" type 1000 point game, but I have no idea what kinds of very expensive power-ups a Swashbuckler (for example) would buy...

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

Something tells me attributes are going above 20 by that point.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

Ideall, the combined Pact of No Weapons and No Worn Armour should act as a Power Modifier on a bunch of advantages, such as lots of Striking ST, Enhanced Dodge, DR with a Conscious/Aware Only Limitation (to represent actively rolling with blows) and so forth.

In fact given that some of those levelled traits are quite cheap themselves, Stroking ST Limited to Unarmed Only, and levels of Hard To Kill (as well as severely Limited levels of DR), it might be possible to gather all of them into a (levelled) Meta-Trait so that the Pact PM can more fully be applied to them. But that might be a bit cheesey, and even if it's not deemed cheesy it's very important not to apply the PM twice. For a typical PM little damage is done but I imagine this PM is going to be -25% or thereabouts.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

Well, my DF-ish characters are around* 1,500 points or so and none of them have Attributes higher than 20 without magical effects. Granted, they have easy access to potions, spells and magical items that often give them +3 or more to multiple traits for a given combat, but none have bought an Attribute at such a high level.

I do impose an Unusual Background cost for exceeding racial norms in the campaign, which absent a racial modifier are 15 for all Attributes except ST, which can be 20.

The UB ranges from a 1-point Special Exercises Perk for plausible Secondary Attributes (or what amount to sub-Attrubutes, e.g. Lifting ST) raised by a couple of levels as part of a Style to a gradually increasing 5-20 point Unusual Background per level of Attribute above racial maxima.

I have a couple of PCs with IQ, Per and/or Will 16 and one with DX 17, but none higher. I expect to see further gradual increases, but fairly slow, as there are always other power-ups to get, skills to improve and niche-specific awesome stuff to get more awesome at.

2,000 points barely covers a truly powerful wizard or priest in my setting. The PCs are mostly warriors or rogues with a few supernatural tricks, maybe a smattering of spellcasting ability. None of them have the Magery/Power Investiture 7+, Energy Reserve 300+ and hundreds of points of Modular Ability as well as hundreds of learned spells needed to truly rank among the great spellcasters of the setting.


*Since the winning of Wealth, fame (Reputation), social position and influence (Status, Allies, Contacts, Favors, etc.) is kind of the point of the game, I don't charge points for loot, earnings, investments, friends made, allegiances made and such, but instead track such things as part of the game world and the PCs' ongoing impact on it. The GCA write-ups of the PCs accordingly lack the appropriate Wealth level for their astronomical levels of loot, awesome magic items and legions of loyal followers. Only relationships that the players deliberatly spent earned points on to get a meta-game insurance from betrayal or imperfect memories for prior favours are counted in the 'official' point values of PCs, which range from 1,050 to just over 1,260. All the same, I think their Wealth and magic gear alone is worth 300+ points above that and a case could be made for adding at least 500 points in Wealth and other social and influence traits to the main PCs.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

Ok, I have no trouble imagining a caster at that level, since you could always use more ER, higher Magery, etc. I still can't imagine a fighter-type, unless everyone's buying attributes into the 30s, skills into the 50s, etc.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

Buying every single power-up in Dungeon Fantasy (from the core PDFs to the Pyramid articles) - they'll keep you plenty busy enough.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

I don't have most of the pyramids, but buying every swashbuckler power-up in DF11 is only going to cost about 250 points or so. That added to ~500 for attributes and ~100 or so for skills still isn't adding up to 1000, never mind 2000. And if I want people to make 1000 point DF characters and not have every character look identical, there should at least be some options (in other words, not every Swashbuckler should look exactly the same). I'm not sure how high-powered or expensive these pyramid power-ups are, but I don't see them making much of a dent in a 1000 point budget...

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

Multi-classing with other Lenses, perhaps?

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

This is a 1,005 point character with no attribute at 20:

ST 11 (10) DX 14 (80) IQ 17 (140) HT 14 (40)

Will 17 (0) Perception 17 (0) HP 11 (0) Fatigue 14 (0) Fatigue (Magic Only) 9 (27)

Basic Lift: 24 lb Basic Speed: 7 Move: 7 Dodge: 11 Swing Damage: 1d+1 Thrust Damage: 1d-1

Languages (Native): Common Aerdi, Elvish, High Aerdi (2x4+LT)

Languages (Accented): Aegyptian, Anglish, Arabic, Argossean, Baklunish, Cold Tongue, Drow, Dwarvish,
East Oeridian, Flan, FR Common, Garethi, Gnomish, Goblin, Gorean, High Temung, Illyon, Low Talislan,
Novarian, Orcish, Tsolyanu, Vendhyan, West Oeridian, Wolsan (21x2+LT)

Language (Written Only, Native): Suloise (2+LT)

Languages (Written Only, Accented): Ancient Baklunish, Old Oeridian (2x1+LT)

Languages (Spoken Only, Accented): Hepmona (1+LT)

Cultural Familiarities: Cultural Adaptability (Xeno-Adaptability) (20)

Wealth: Filthy Rich (50) Status: 1 (0) Reaction: +2 Diplomacy, +2 Fast Talk, +2 Voice, +/- Status

Advantages: Absolute Direction (5), Absolute Timing (2), Ambidexterity (5), Combat Reflexes (15), Danger Sense (15), Empathy (15), Fit (5), High Pain Threshold (10), Language Talent (10), Luck (15), Recovery (10), Unfazeable (15), Voice (10)

Perks: Alcohol Tolerance (1), Deep Sleeper (1), No Hangover (1)

Disadvantages: Compulsive Carousing (12) (-5), Compulsive Spending (12) (-5), Curious (12) (-5), Laziness (-10), Lecherousness (12) (-15), Xenophilia (12) (-10)

Talent: Smooth Operator: (Diplomacy, Fast Talk, Intimidation, Savoir-Faire, Sex Appeal, Streetwise) +2 (10)

Skills: Acting IQ/A –16 (1), Administration IQ/A – 16 (1), Alchemy/TL3+4 IQ/VH – 15 (2x2), Archeology IQ/H – 15 (1), Area Knowledge (Magira) IQ/E – 18 (2), Bow DX/A – 18 (16), Brawling DX/E – 14 (1), Breath Control HT/H – 14 (4), Broadsword DX/A – 18 (16), Carousing HT/E – 18 (12), Climbing DX/A – 14 (2), Connoisseur (Wine) IQ/A – 17 (2), Crossbow DX/E – 16 (4), Detect Lies Per/H – 15 (1), Diplomacy IQ/H – 20 (2+Voice+Talent), Disguise/TL3 IQ/A – 16 (1), Engineer/TL4 (Clockwork) IQ/H – 15 (1), Erotic Art DX/A – 14 (2), Esoteric Medicine Per/H – 16 (2), Expert (Magic) IQ/H – 15 (1), Expert (Natural Philosophy) IQ/H – 17 (4), Fast Talk IQ/A – 20 (1+Voice+Talent), Fortune-Telling (Feng Shui) IQ/A – 18 (1+Charisma), Gambling IQ/A – 16 (1), Herb Lore /TL3 IQ/VH – 14 (1), Hiking HT/A – 14 (1), History (Magic) IQ/H – 16 (2), Innate Attack (Beam) DX/E – 16 (4), Interrogation IQ/A – 17 (2), Intimidation Will/A – 18 (1+Talent), Judo DX/H – 13 (2), Innate Attack (Projectile) DX/E – 17 (8), Karate DX/H – 13 (2), Knife DX/E – 14 (1), Knot Tying DX/E – 15 (2), Leadership IQ/A – 16 (1), Mathematics TL3 (Applied) IQ/H – 15 (1), Mental Strength Will/E – 18 (2), Merchant IQ/A – 20 (12), Meteorology/TL3 (Weathersense) IQ/A – 16 (1), Mind Block Will/A – 17 (2), Naturalist IQ/H – 16 (2), Navigation/TL3 (Sea) IQ/A – 19 (1+AbsDir), Observation Per/A – 17 (2), Occultism IQ/A – 17 (2), Pharmacy/TL3 (Herbal) IQ/H – 15 (1), Public Speaking IQ/A – 20 (4+Voice), Research/TL3 IQ/A – 16 (1), Riding (Horse) DX/A – 13 (1), Savoir Faire (High Society) IQ/E – 19 (1+Talent), Seamanship/TL3 IQ/E – 17 (1), Sex Appeal HT/A – 17 (1+Voice+Talent), Shield DX/E – 14 (1), Shiphandling/TL3 (Sea) IQ/H – 15 (1), Staff DX/A – 15 (4), Streetwise IQ/A – 18 (1+Talent), Swimming HT/E – 14 (1), Tactics IQ/H – 16 (2), Theology (Comparative) IQ/H – 15 (1), Theology (Oerth Pantheon) IQ/H – 15 (1), Throwing DX/A – 13 (1), Traps/TL3 IQ/A – 16 (1), Urban Survival Per/A – 16 (1)

Magic:
Magery 5 (55)
Inextinguishable Power (DF 11/36) (5)
Mana Enhancer 1 (50)
Wild Talent 1 (Retention, Magic Only, Costs 1 FP) (20)
Thaumatology IQ/VH – 20 (2)
Spells: (188):
Air (10): Purify Air – 20 (1), Create Air – 20 (1), Shape Air – 20 (1), Body of Air – 20 (1), Concussion – 20 (1),
No-Smell – 20 (1), Odor – 20 (1), Windstorm – 20 (1), Lightning – 20 (1), Ball of Lightning – 20 (1),
Summon Air Elemental – 20 (1), Control Air Elemental – 20 (1), Create Air Elemental – 20 (1)
Body Control (13): Itch – 20 (1), Spasm – 20 (1), Pain – 20 (1), Stun – 20 (1), Sensitize – 20 (1), Agonize – 20 (1),
Clumsiness – 20 (1), Paralyze Limb – 20 (1), Total Paralysis – 20 (1), Wither Limb – 20 (1), Deathtouch – 20 (1),
Hair Growth –20 (1), Haircut – 20 (1)
Communication & Empathy (14): Sense Foes – 20 (1), Sense Emotion – 20 (1), Truthsayer – 20 (1),
Compel Truth – 20 (1), Mind-Reading – 20 (1), Mind-Search VH – 19 (1), Mind-Sending – 20 (1),
Telepathy VH – 19 (1), Persuasion – 20 (1), Communication VH – 19 (1), Lend Language – 20 (1),
Borrow Language – 20 (1), Gift of Letters VH – 19 (1), Gift of Tongues VH – 19 (1)
Earth (8): Seek Earth – 20 (1), Shape Earth – 20 (1), Earth to Stone – 20 (1), Create Earth – 20 (1),
Walk through Earth – 20 (1),
Summon Earth Elemental – 20 (1), Control Earth Elemental – 20 (1), Create Earth Elemental – 20 (1)
Enchantment (4): Enchant VH – 19 (1), Powerstone – 20 (1), Manastone VH – 19 (1), Scroll – 20 (1)
Fire (13): Ignite Fire – 20 (1), Shape Fire – 20 (1), Create Fire – 20 (1), Extinguish Fire – 20 (1), Fireball – 20 (1),
Explosive Fireball – 20 (1), Heat – 20 (1), Flaming Weapons – 20 (1), Flaming Missiles – 20 (1), Flame Jet – 20 (1),
Summon Fire Elemental – 20 (1), Control Fire Elemental – 20 (1), Create Fire Elemental – 20 (1)
Food (9): Test Food – 20 (1), Seek Food – 20 (1), Cook – 20 (1), Create Food – 20 (1), Decay – 20 (1),
Purify Food – 20 (1), Mature – 20 (1), Water to Wine – 20 (1), Distill – 20 (1)
Gate (5): Seek Gate – 20 (1), Scry Gate – 20 (1), Control Gate – 20 (1), Teleport VH – 19 (1),
Teleport Other VH – 19 (1)
Healing (9): Lend Energy – 20 (1), Recover Energy – 20 (1), Lend Vitality – 20 (1), Minor Healing – 20 (1),
Major Healing VH – 19 (1), Relieve Sickness – 20 (1), Cure Disease – 20 (1), Detect Poison – 20 (1),
Neutralize Poison – 20 (1)
Illusion & Creation (3): Simple Illusion – 20 (1), Complex Illusion – 20 (1), Know Illusion – 20 (1)
Knowledge (13): Detect Magic – 20 (1), Seek Magic – 20 (1), Mage Sight – 20 (1), Mage Sense – 20 (1),
Aura – 20 (1), See Secrets – 20 (1), Seeker – 20 (1), Pathfinder – 20 (1), Trace – 20 (1), History – 20 (1),
Ancient History – 20 (1), Wizard Eye – 20 (1), Invisible Wizard Eye – 20 (1)
Light & Darkness (10): Light – 20 (1), Continual Light – 20 (1), Darkness – 20 (1), Blur – 20 (1), Hide – 20 (1),
Colors – 20 (1), Flash – 20 (1), Night Vision – 20 (1), Dark Vision – 20 (1), Invisibility – 20 (1)
Making & Breaking (7): Find Weakness – 20 (1), Weaken – 20 (1), Restore – 20 (1), Rejoin – 20 (1),
Repair – 20 (1), Clean – 20 (1), Dye – 20 (1)
Meta (13): Counterspell – 20 (1), Dispel Magic – 20 (1), Delay – 20 (1), Link – 20 (1), Maintain Spell VH – 19 (1),
Hang Spell VH – 19 (1), Telecast VH – 19 (1), Bless – 20 (1), Magic Resistance – 20 (1), Scryguard – 20 (1),
Scrywall – 20 (1), Spell Shield – 20 (1), Pentagram – 20 (1)
Mind Control (17): Keen Vision – 20 (1), Foolishness – 20 (1), Daze – 20 (1), Mass Daze – 20 (1),
Forgetfulness – 20 (1), Sleep – 20 (1), Mass Sleep – 20 (1), Fear – 20 (1), Bravery – 20 (1), Loyalty – 20 (1),
Charm – 20 (1), Enslave VH – 19 (1), Mental Stun – 20 (1), Emotion Control – 20 (1), Ecstasy VH – 19 (1),
Suggestion – 20 (1), Mass Suggestion – 20 (1)
Movement (4): Apportation – 20 (1), Levitation – 20 (1), Poltergeist – 20 (1), Winged Knife – 20 (1)
Necromantic (3): Steal Energy – 20 (1), Steal Vitality – 20 (1), Summon Demon – 20 (1)
Protection & Warning (9): Weather Dome – 20 (1), Shield – 20 (1), Missile Shield – 20 (1),
Reverse Missiles – 20 (1), Sense Danger – 20 (1), Watchdog – 20 (1), Sense Observation – 20 (1),
Umbrella – 20 (1), Magelock – 20 (1)
Sound (10): Sound – 20 (1), Keen Hearing – 20 (1), Voices – 20 (1), Thunderclap – 20 (1), Great Voice – 20 (1),
Message – 20 (1), Far-Hearing –20 (1), Sound Vision – 20 (1), Wizard Ear – 20 (1), Invisible Wizard Ear – 20 (1)
Water (10): Seek Water – 20 (1), Seek Coastline – 20 (1), Purify Water – 20 (1), Create Water – 20 (1),
Destroy Water – 20 (1), Dehydrate – 20 (1), Breathe Water – 20 (1),
Summon Water Elemental – 20 (1), Control Water Elemental – 20 (1), Create Water Elemental – 20 (1)
Weather (3): Predict Weather – 20 (1), Current – 20 (1), Wind – 20 (1)

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

I think I mentioned upthread that I'm having no trouble imagining a caster spending all those points. There are a lot of spells to buy, for starters! I'm having more trouble with the more mundane types (Scout, Swashbuckler, Thief, etc.).

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

Yes, I thought of that. But if I'm going to run a game like this and have people make 1000 point characters, then I don't want them to HAVE to multi-class. But maybe the mundane templates will need to...

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

Having played a 1000-point archer (granted in a superhero game rather than DF), I can tell you that imbuement skills help keep the Scout up to par with wizard types without actually being "multi-class" types at that level. Knight also benefits from imbuements; not sure about Thief.

And don't forget certain types of gear. A Thief with a ring of invisibility can be quite useful.

My biggest question is, in the 1000-2000 point spread, what exactly are you going up against? Demigods? Cthulhu?

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

Remember that suitably steep Unusual Background costs can make any budget seem modest! I've met GMs who charged human PCs a 100-point premium per DX, IQ, or HT level past 20. Then there are things like Unusual Background (Demigod) at several hundred points in return for access to powerful exotic and supernatural advantages off a suitably fantasy-themed list. If the only way to get Burning Attack 10d [50] or any Telekinesis at all is to be the bastard offspring of a god for 500 points, then players will pay it.

Taking that last point further, it's common enough to let delvers evolve into fantasy-themed supers – not via mutations and super-sera, but through the effects of divine, magical, and cosmic forces. Again, the GM probably won't be handing out unlimited access, but even sticking to what suits myth, a cleric with Super Luck 3 (Alter Reality, +75%; Wishing, +100%) [825] is pretty powerful . . . and needs a lot of points! Ditto a wizard with Snatcher (Creation, +100%; Large Items, +50%; More Weight, 100 lbs., +40%; Permanent, +300%) [472], who can do the classic "snap my fingers and make stuff appear" trick.

Even without super-powers, going well beyond sane limits on open-ended abilities is a thing. A 2,000-point warrior may actually be able to have up to ST 50 [400], DX 30 [400], HT 20 [100], HP 200 [300], Basic Speed 20.00 [150], and Basic Move 30 [50] among his abilities, and go around one-shotting multiple dragons per turn with a big stack of Extra Attacks. A mega-wizard or mega-cleric might just be able to cast permanent Alter Body or Resurrection casually with Energy Reserve 200 or 300 [600 or 900].

The GM of such madness really has to reimagine what "dungeon fantasy" means, but it isn't all that far from the highest reaches of old-school FRPGs. I imagine that a few of us here remember groups that included clerics who could resurrect on demand, fighters who could one-shot giants, and wizards who could cast multiple Time Stop and Wish spells . . . taking on demon lords and gods just to slaughter them and take their stuff. Such PCs had typically used scads of wishes to ratchet a few attributes up to 25 on the old 3-18 scale, which was That Other Game's code for "as good as you can get," which in an open-ended game like GURPS might correspond to, say, a DX or IQ of 30 or 50 or 100.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

I know a group that has summoned and killed Yeenoghu, Demon Lord of Gnolls, three times, at the appropriate intervals for his recovering the ability to visit the material world. The first time it was an accident and they had a very tough time of it. The second time, it was a planned part of a war. The third time was on stage, having sold tickets.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

That's helpful. I thought of charging Unusual Background costs for going above race/template maximum, although I was thinking 10 points/level...but having big, huge UBs that open up crazy abilities is a good idea that for some reason escaped me.
Because GURPS is more concrete than DnD, I have more trouble imagining what this looks like. For some reason, the high level of abstraction of DnD made it so that I thought of a 20th level fighter as really good at fighting without imagining that he's swinging a sword nine times a second, moving the speed of a motorcycle on a highway, etc.
Yes, that's exactly why I asked this question here (and hijacked the thread a bit--sorry, OP). I remember what very "high-level" characters looked like in AD&D 2nd Edition, the game of my childhood, and I was trying to recreate that feeling.
Maybe it's because I was young, but I don't recall having the same issues with high DnD attributes that I have with high GURPS attributes. Again, I think it's because GURPS is so clear about what you can achieve with a DX of 30 or a ST of 50. I realize that even 250-point DF characters are utterly unrealistic, but I at least feel I can imagine them in a fictional universe. I'm not sure what GURPS HP 200 would even look like, while DnD HPs include GURPS's defenses, HP, and to some extent HT, so I was able to kind of gloss it over and just think of all the numbers only relative to each other.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

I wouldn't say that anyone in my game has felt that he was required to 'multi-class' as such, if his original concept didn't call for it.

Sir Michael Carragher* was conceived as a warrior with some wilderness survival, mountaineering and archery. In D&D terms, he would probably have been a Fighter with a level of Ranger or something. In Dungeon Fantasy terms, a junior Knight with maybe a lens for Scout or Barbarian.

This was back when he was a tall but gangling 150 point tyro swordsman who went to the Big City for the first time and met his cousin Murlak, launching their famous adventuring careers.

Murlak Solstice, meanwhile, was a young, but promising swashbuckling rogue and con man who belonged to the Thieves' Guild in the city. In D&D terms, most certainly a Rogue or Thief, depending on edition. In Dungeon Fantasy terms, either a Thief or the Rogue from Pyramid #64.

Some 1,200+ points later, Sir Michael Carrager is still, in D&D terms, a Fighter with a level or two of Ranger. He is an accredited knight, has followers, owns land where he is building a castle and settling farmers and villagers and he's marrying a titled noblewoman, but he remains a recognisable Knight in DF terms and a Fighter in D&D terms.

Murlak Solstice is most certainly still a Rogue or Thief, but if we were to imagine him in terms of D&D multi-classing, we might find some Prestige Classes to model his swashbuckling fencing and command of a privateer ship** (Duellist? Swashbuckler? Dread Pirate?) and his plutocratic power in the setting (Merchant Prince).

That points out a tendency of high-level play, actually. A Warrior, Fighter or Knight can remain a Warrior, Fighter or Knight at high power-levels, but should probably aim to become a general, condottieri, warlord or feudal lord as well, something to allow him to lead other men into battle. A Thief or Rogue would do well to become a more subtle mover-and-shaker in the world, either in the underworld, the legitimate business world or both.

*Who oringally went by the name Brash Mickey and still answers to that in private.
**As well as, ah, that whole 'secret pirate alter ego' and command of a pirate fleet after defeating their previous pirate lord.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

Here's what GURPS HP 100 looks like:

GM: Tactical Teddybear rolls against Guns (Rocket Launcher) and gets... an eight! He gets a direct hit unless Santa dodges... with an eleven! Fail! A fiery explosion blows enormous chunks out of Santa's torso. Roll damage!

PLAYERS: [general cheering]

GM: You seem to have finally inflicted a Major Wound! Santa's facial expression appears somewhat distracted, and he rolls HT vs Stun+Knockdown... with a fourteen! He's still on his feet!

PLAYERS: [general looks of bewildered disbelief]

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

It sounds like you're talking about their significant social advantages, but earlier you seemed to be saying you weren't even counting those towards the 1000 points. Of course DF doesn't really consider social advantages (other than Ally)...but I could see how huge levels of Reputation, Wealth, large groups of Allies, etc. might add up to a lot.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

Actually, now that I think about it, it was only 80 in that example. 200 HP is kind of a lot.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

Things common to all: Luck, combat reflexes, high pain threshold, very fit and some ranks in some organisations.

They are all really multiclassed

One is Reactions+Melee with minor spell casting(control and fascination type+some combat buffs magic):
684 points are in advantages, 157 in spells, 115 points in combat skills, 61 in physical skills, 184 mental skills.
Things of note: Charisma 9. appearance 5, empathy, 61 points in talents, weapon master. Also has recently acquired alternate form to water elemental.

One is light fencer type melee with lore skills some knowledge and illusion magic and thief skills:
583 points advantages, 152 points in spells, 164 points in combat skills,120 in physical skills, 289 mental skills.
Things of note: warp, dark vision, weapon master. 52 points in smallsword, Bardic lore 48 points, stealth+traps+locks+acrobatics all around 20 points.

One is then a wizard/cleric with knowledge skills and fairly good melee skills to survive until he can win the fight. Funny enough he has really low number of points in spells:
679 points advantages, 178 points in spells, 112 points in combat skills,64 in physical skills, 257 mental skills.
Things of note: Regeneration, peripheral vision, Dark vision. 40 points in thaumatology, 36 points in Humanities! 33 points in innate attack, 28 points in smallsword.

One is tankish holy warrior type, but also the best sneaker in the group and fair archer and really many types of magic(but badly), really built to do everything(badly) except tank well:
952 points advantages, 139 points in spells, 101 points in combat skills,166 in physical skills, 196 mental skills.
Things of note: Alternate form(fire giant),Regeneration,Holy glory, resistant to evil super natural weapons, spirit weapon, Innate attack type sword, 65 points in sword!, stealth 24 points
Has total DR of 23 and injury tolerance /2 in fire giant mode and stealth almost 40 in elf form.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

Or not enough, depending. When the Invisible wizard with Magery 10 shoots you in the skull with his 30d+30 Stone Missile and you suffer 500 HP of injury even with your helmet. Or when 1,000 orcs rain down arrows on you, the GM uses stats to say that you take 10 hits/volley even considering the range and your Dodge, you have to dash through three volleys to start killing the army, and you get plinked for 270 HP before you reach them. Or when Zeus hits you with his 200d lightning bolt.

That's the thing with this kind of fantasy . . . The GM really, really needs to challenge the PCs. Of course, not everyone will survive via lots of HP. Some will retcon a miss with enhanced Super Luck, some will be insubstantial, and so on. And of course the GM will need things to challenge those guys, too.

It's nuts, which is why Dungeon Fantasy doesn't go there, officially. ;)

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

The characters in this campaign are worth from 1,050 to 1,260 points in GCA. I'm guessing that around 300-500+ extra points in Wealth and social advantages would be counted if I was to represent in GCA, as opposed to just in game world terms, their ownership of a merchant house, shipping fleet, mercenary organisation and general East India Company -esque powerhouse, not to mention their personal reputations, contact networks, followers, allies, henchmen and hundreds of various friends, business partners and acquintances.

Each of them is worth at least a solid 1,000 points without social advantages. It's not cheap to learn all the skills needed to be such things as an awesome warrior with any weapon*; military leader or an architect of societies; polished courtier, crowd-pleasing entertainer or rabble rousing orator; heroic sailor, explorer, tinker, tailor, soldier, spy.**

Sir Michael has 455 points in skills and techniques and he has just over 100 individual skills and techniques.

Murlak has invested slightly less in terms of skill points, with 357 points in skills and techniques and his skill list has just under a 100 individual skills and techniques.

Their Attributes as ST 20; DX 14; IQ 12; HT 15 for Sir Michael and ST 12; DX 17; IQ 15; HT 13 for Murlak. Both have multiple Talents relating to their niches at high levels.

Murlak has a total of 539 points in Advantages, ranging from a wide range of Languages to various Power-Ups relating to roguish things and a 'Shadow Step' Warp power granted by the god of rogues and shadows.

Sir Michael has 455 points in Advantages, of which the most expensive, apart form Talents, are his Injury Tolerance: Damage Reduction /3 [75] and Weapon Master [45].

Both have at least Extraordinary Luck (all characters in the campaign have at least Luck and I suppose Extraordinary Luck is about the average level) and Murlak has both Ridiculous Luck [60] and Serendipity.

Sir Michael has skill 22-25 in more or less all combat skills.
**Note, no one is actually a tinker or tailor.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

Which is pretty much what playing epic D&D 3 was like. I played a bunch about ten years ago, with a druid/ranger who wild shaped himself into a gold dragon and carried the others on his back, and made foes sitting ducks for the arcane archer with multiple reverse gravity spells (there's a spell that would be fun in GURPS…). Which was nothing compared to the cleric who regularly healed a thousand hit points in a single round.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

Injury Tolerance (No Brain) for 5 points.. helps a lot.. :p

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

Well, in my campaign the basic storyline is one of many ancient evils raising, and the players are trying to stop that, or at least to stop as many as possible of them.

There is clearly a cataclysmic war coming, all the signs and prophesies point to it, but most people see it as something that will happen at some far future time, the players are among the groups that see the signs as imminent threat and are trying tilt the balance of the coming big war.

Currently the campaign is towards end of "book 5" of a 13 "book" saga.

They have recently fought dragons, cultists, beholders, powerful demons and drow. Have been instrumental in turning the tide of one war and similar things. (Really in that way also similar to upper heroic levels in D&D)

They have been visited by and courted by demigods and lieutenants of major gods, but they have not yet fought any demigods directly, though they have stopped several of the truly powerful forces by striking before the force has awakened or regained it's true power.

In the campaign world typical demigod power levels are in the 3000-5000 point ranges, so they are approaching those levels "soon"(as in: not this year but next year or the year after)

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

Many of them are extremely cool, or very class- (or species-) appropriate, or both (I like DF11 a lot), but I don't seem to recall a lot of them being very expensive. So yeah, I'm with Gnome here, unless I failed my Eidetic Memory roll (and I ain't got the full +5 bonus; mine is a Limited version), none of them adds up to two thousand points.

Is it that the Pyramid expansions add a bunch of very expensive power-ups?

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

I was in a IIRC level 60 D&D game. GM just upped and said "Make level 60 equivalent characters, I don't care how." I hate going through all the actual levelling process, even with PCGen, so I slapped like six different templates on a minotaur and ended up with a four-headed four armed clawed semidivine paragon half-troll half-fiend half-minotaur[1] monstrosity or some such beast. Which was basically a superhero. Or a superbeing anyways, dubiously heroic.

The catgirl bard had a Diplomacy score over 100 and talked down Catastrophy dragons into becoming our loyal cohorts.

I nearly earned that for my minotaur when he took arrows to the eyesockets and through to the brain on multiple occasions, and kept on fighting. It was less "and now you have No Brain" and more "... I guess you had No Brain all along. Explains some things."

Chasing the hysterical archer around the battlefield via Discriminatory Smell with an arrow sticking out of each of his eyesockets was definitely a high point in his career.


[1] Shut up, BAM-ofet was terrible with math.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

I have lot of experience with this due to running my Majestic Wilderlands under GURPS since 1988.

Well template do help. However I use 100 to 150 as my starting point.

The key to make a set of template and explain the option. For example this for a Myrmidon of Set.

http://www.batintheattic.com/downloa...20Template.pdf

I typically go to the 4e Historical Folk netbook that is floating around as a starting point.

http://www.mygurps.com/historical_folks_4e.pdf


2 Points plus 2 or more point for achieving a character or group goal.

My own Scourge of the Demon Wolf. It actually a GURPS adventure I ran converted and playtested to use classic D&D in the form of Swords & Wizardry. Just swap out the stats for GURPS equivalents, There is a roster in the back of the book. Pretty all you will need for certain are bandits, wolves, a demon wolf, and a demon.

http://www.batintheattic.com/scourge_demon_wolf.html

As for TSR or Wizards, I find using the the basic dungeons found in core books like the Porttown Dungeon in Holmes Basic D&D to be well suited for an initial foray for GURPS dungeon crawling.

As that may hard to find, I recommend the dungeon in Swords & Wizardry quick start. http://www.black-blade-publishing.co...tart-pdf-.aspx



My campaign have magic shops including healing potion. They are not cheap about $120 each, but a typical party in my campaign will have 2 to 6 of them as they are one of the first things they invest in.

Even with healing potions, forays into well-populated dungeon tend to be hit and run affairs. The group will scout out an area, pick a target, and hit it. If injured enough they will run and recuperate. Scouting and understanding the situation in the locale or dungeon becomes very important.

Because of this the dungeon tend to be more background heavy in my campaign. So that doing this has a clear payoff.

I stress that the key to make GURPS work for novices is clear, well written templates. Start out with the traditional set of Fighter, Priest, Thief, and Mage and go from there. I recommend Dungeon Fantasy Henchmen as a starting point for sub 250 point campaigns.

As for Dungeon Fantasy, what 250 points gets you is characters with endurance. They get injured, and badly. It is still GURPS after all. However they have just enough extra that they can last 3 or 4 encounters before recuperating. Similar to classic D&D except of course Combat takes longer to resolve most times. With my starting point of 100 to 150 points that number is one or two encounters.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

Which is to say, more old-school (not necessarily GURPS) hit points. At 250 character points, you can avoid, bounce, absorb, heal, or just function despite more incoming damage. Each character type does so differently – higher active defenses, more wealth for buying armor (and healing potions), more ST for lugging armor (and giving more HP), naked DR, defensive buffs, healing abilities, not being seen in the first place, Luck, or just being a berserker with ridiculous HT and HP – but all that stuff costs points. If you stick to the way points are spent on the canonical DF templates, then with one or two exceptions (bard . . .), the closest old-school-to-GURPS correspondence is between old-school hit points and GURPS character points – not 1:1, obviously, but there's clearly a relationship.

Re: Old-School D&D style game
 

It tricky to balance deadliness, endurance, etc in dungeon fantasy. One thing I notice since playing, playtesting, and publishing for classic editions of D&D is that OD&D (1974 3 booklets) has a far more gritty and deadly feel than AD&D 1st 2nd, and 3.X. Character are vulnerable for far longer than later editions. Even with the addition of the Greyhawk supplement the OD&D power curve is more flat and threats are more credible to higher levels.

I think DF does a good job of emulating AD&D 1st edition. But for OD&D 150 pt templates are a better fit. Which is ultimately why I when I adapted my Majestic Wilderlands from my GURPS notes I went with Swords & Wizardry as the base rather than OSRIC (AD&D) or d20.