Improving the Tonfa
 

The GURPS tonfa seems rather unimpressive. It has a number of cost saving features that could cause a character to end up using one but it doesn't have anything that would push someone to design around it in the first place. Removing the tonfa skill as part of a melee weapon reorganization is nice but doesn't solve the underlying problem.

Is there a realistic benefit that we can give the tonfa to make it more attractive?

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

They always struck me as versatile weapons for people in closer range combat. Not the king of anything, but good for a number of purposes. Also, less threatening than a blade or mace, so there are sometimes social advantages. IMC (non-DF Fantasy), tonfas are used by "town guard" in places that have cultural exposure to the weapon and don't want to use army troops for the purpose. I also allow the Grip Mastery perk to switch between use modes for weapons, ie between a punching and swinging grip, using the separate skills, for a tonfa. This augments their versatility.

There are better weapons for tripping, snagging and disarming. There are better weapons for killing at reach 1 and reach C. There are even better less threatening weapons. However, the tonfa is a decent choice for each of these categories. I think it's a poor primary weapon, but a great backup for an adventurer (as opposed to a soldier).

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

The Tonfa's most interesting feature is probably how it interacts with unarmed combat skills for parrying.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

FWIW it is supposed to be unimpressive. It is a handle from a mill used by a people who were forbidden to use real weapons.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

The modern tonfa seems less impressive than an mace, yes. But the tonkwas, the Okinawan tonfas, were very, very dangerous.

• First, they were crafted in hard wood which made them strike very hardly, especially to the main targets learned for this weapon in kobudo: skull, temple, knee or throat... My masters say that one good swinging blow to the skull is sufficient to kill someone. And the least blow to a bone like a knee would break it very easily.
• Second, because of their quickness. It strikes so fast that parrying a tonkwa attack to the head requires a very specific jodan uke. Without this specific parry, the move is to slow.

Modern tonfas are more soft. They allow policemen, guardians and the likes to use them without risking to kill to easily... It becomes a defensive weapon...

But Okinawan tonkwas were very dangerous weapons. Maybe one of the most lethal in kobudo. Which always teach to use two tonkwas at the same time (one in each hand). It makes them even more dangerous: the foe can't know from which side the attack will come.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Any character designed around using a tonfa is probably going to be in a society where he can't access better weapons and/or be using a cinematic version of the tonfa.

For the first, you're probably talking about something like Social Stigma, low Status, etc. For the latter, you might want to have the tonfa usable in both grips (and even when swinging) with Karate (possibly a Perk) and either let it benefit from both the Karate damage bonus and the Weapon Master damage bonus (a rules exemption probably worth at least [5], arguably more) or make Striking ST (Only when striking with a tonfa) fairly cheap. Let them have the Ninja modifier (DF12, p.13), and have Parrying with a reverse-grip Tonfa be at +1 normally, possibly +3 or higher against a foe who doesn't know you have a tonfa. Spinning the tonfa might allow it to Block as a DB 1 or 2 shield (particularly against light projectiles). Allow characters to use the handle with Hook, and also as a climbing aid. Having a tonfa protect the hand (and forearm, if in reverse grip) passively like a katar or similar weapon might also be worthwhile.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

If they were a generalist weapon that would be fine but nothing about their actual stats makes them versatile. Instead they are a mediocre weapon that for PC purposes are used as a parrying aid by some unarmed specialists and which are cheap, but not actually better at switching in and out of reversed grip.

Yes, the tonfa has some utility as something that karateguy picks up. The problem is that there isn't a reason for there to be a tonfaguy.

However they are also unimpressive compared to other "non-real" weapons.

What is unimpressive is the GURPS tonfa. That represents a tonfa of traditional construction. GURPS doesn't penalize wooden weapons shifted to plastic construction and it probably shouldn't though it's possible cheap examples exist. Not to mention that there are police tonfa made of hard wood.

While real tonfa may be a fine weapon the GURPS tonfa really isn't. Any wooden weapon a PC uses is normally going to be made out of quality wood whether it's a tonfa or bokken and any long object made out of hard wood is something that can kill someone. Likewise any one handed weapon can be used as a pair and tonfa don't get any bonus regarding this.

The GURPS tonfa is dangerous in an objective sense but compared to other weapons it suffers. If the PCs are a group of kobujutsuka the tonfa is probably going to be used less than other weapons and it's going to be even less common if they have a greater variety of weapons and styles to choose from.

It should certainly be able to use the Hook technique and also hook various things such as in climbing. Giving it a chance to protect the forearm in the right grip and maybe the hand is a good idea. A +1 to parry in reverse grip seems a bit strong. Certainly the tonfa is good at parrying in reverse grip but if it gets one there are probably quite a few other weapons that equally deserve it.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Should there be? Does anyone use a tonfa because it is the optimal combat weapon? It's hardly the only thing in the weapons list that is lacking a niche of superiority.

Also, the obvious reason to be tonfaguy that the rules almost can't help but support is that a tonfa is the weapon you have access to...for instance if you're in a police force where they're carried.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

I don't know. I'd like it if it could have some kind of niche even if it's a pretty small one though so I'm hoping we can come up with some realistic benefits to help it out.

That's part of the problem really. If it's just a bad choice on the weapons list that's a shame especially if one of the players likes tonfa but it's not a big problem. However it's frustrating for a PC to have to put up with gear that is mechanically bad though if they are a member of that police force. It's much more pleasant for the PC if their assigned gear has some kind of niche of superiority even if it's overall worse than other choices.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

The whole point of the Police tonfa/baton is that it isn't very effective at killing people. Police carry them because they are less lethal than their sidearm. These days the taser meets that criteria.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

I always thought the only useful part of it was letting somebody with a high unarmed combat skill use an unarmed parry effectively against a weapon. If you have Karate at 20, grab a tonfa if you plan on going against anybody with weapons. Otherwise take Shortsword at 21 and go to town with a long knife or better. The only other nice thing about it is it can easily be hidden under very loose sleeves typical of some places and times, in a ready-to-use position. Trying to pull a sword out of your sleeve will take a bit longer whereas with the tonfa you can still punch with it. If you parry while it is hidden under the sleeves it can help your character develop an 'iron arm' reputation as well.
I basically file it under 'cool martial arts weapon for usually unarmed characters' and leave it at that.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Well I'm not really looking at this from a high tech point of view. From the perspective of not being very effective at killing people the jutte does the same damage but is generally much better.

Yeah the primary point as it stands is as a tool for unarmed fighters. Hiding it under sleeves is a good point, I should keep that in mind.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

A tonfa and short staff can be assembled into a crutch for someone pretending to be crippled.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

It's hard to imagine a place so restrictive on weapons that one would need to smuggle in sticks. Interesting ancient Chinese settings involving sneaking in to assassinate royalty might fit, I suppose.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

...That's just not a reasonable expectation for regulation gear, I think. There's some reason it's the regulation gear, but it's very likely to be one at a policy or political level that is contrary or irrelevant to the PC's direct interests.

And, well, the tonfa does have a niche of 'superiority', if you let the term be flexible enough. You can use it both as a baton and as an arm-guard for 'unarmed' parries. Other weapons don't do that. It is true that that doesn't encourage specializing in Tonfa skill, but it is a merit of the tonfa as a weapon. Police in particular have significant potential use for both modes.

And once the tonfa is your issued weapon, then there's some merit to actually learning to use it well as a weapon, even if in that role it would be outperformed by some other weapon that you are not allowed to carry.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

If the goal is just to make it more mechanically appealing, you could always just declare it an ethnic badass weapon.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

How so? It's got a bonus to a technique you usually won't use, and loses the reach C option on a thrust. It's better if you intend to really use those disarming moves, but do you?

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

To me it seems like a nice bridge between fully unarmed and fully armed. The more realistic the combat, the more useful it is.
Using house rules that reduce damage, anything that improves unarmed force greatly improves effectiveness, as well as removing Karate's absurd ability to parry weapons without risk.
The psychological effects of using a one handed blunt weapon versus a more overtly lethal weapon like blades cannot be ignored in any situation not full out war.
You come at me with a sword, I know that you're trying to kill me, and I must fight with everything I have.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Compared to the bulk of the alternatives, a tonfa really isn't a very good weapon. It was originally used because it was difficult to have access to anything better. Police forces likely adopted it because a) it's a less-lethal truncheon with a handguard and b) it can be used to enhance unarmed combat (and many cops are probably better at Brawling than Shortsword).

If you want tonfaguy to be a decent choice, then just like making sword-chuck guy a decent choice you're going to have to change some things. For tonfaguy, making access to weapons (and weapon-using skills) extremely restricted works. For both, letting the weapon be cinematically useful (in the case of sword-chucks, that's pretty much "usable at all") can give it a leg up. If you're looking for a good reason for realistic, armed-combat-oriented characters with reliable access to other weapons to use one, you'll likely be looking for a long time.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

For wuxia or kung-fu-movie campaigns where everyone is expected to have a degree of skill in both armed and unarmed combat, a tonfa can be a remarkable point-saver, permitting a tonfa-dude to save something in the neighborhood of 2-12 points to invest somewhere else. That benefit isn't small: you can do a lot with those points.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Good point. It's looking more and more that the tonfa's out of combat utility is an important consideration.

Not smuggle in sticks, tonfa are after all a classic weapon to use under a weapon ban, but disguise sticks until you reach striking range. It's rare for people to take no notice that you are carrying around a stout and ergonomic length of wood.

Yes I could, but I want realistic benefits. The alternative is to leave them as is not ethnic cool them. I'm hoping that putting it's features under greater magnification some niche benefits will emerge that will provide justifications for it's use.

Well I don't expect it. I realize that a lot of regulation gear is chosen because it's cheaper or easier to learn. It's nice to try to find some kind of point that the players can point to as superior.

Well yes. It has a significant benefit for NPCs and it will show up with the occasional PC. I'd still like for it to have more value as it's own thing rather than a tool for unarmed fighters.

It's got a real bonus which is useful even if it comes up rarely. The tonfa does thrust crushing at reach C so you can just punch with the jutte to replace that and wear something (or try to acquire a custom jutte with a at least somewhat enclosed hilt) to protect you from Hurting Yourself.

The thing to compare it against isn't a sword though. It's other one handed blunt weapons.

I'm looking for a good reason for guys using blunt mostly wooden weapons to use the tonfa instead of the other choices. Things like swords are being completely ignored.

Saving points is important for NPCs or incidental choices of PCs. Cost saving isn't the sort of thing PCs build around though.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

It is for my players.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Punching doesn't do thr cr unless you're expecting your jutte to double as brass knuckles.

I'd argue that for most baton users, Disarming comes up never. Baton-using high-skill PCs are highly unrepresentative.
Seems to me like the Quarterstaff is likely to be king in that context...
It seems like you're trying to figure out what merits of the tonfa make it suitable for a purpose that there's no evidence that it is at all suitable for.
I strongly disagree with that, but if that's how your group approaches things we'll have to take that into consideration...

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Well games are pretty different. In my experience when given a choice between a weapon with high maximum effectiveness and a weapon with lower maximum effectiveness but greater resource efficiency the best decision is for PCs to take the former because they can actually afford to sink resources into it until they hit the cap and operate in dangerous enough circumstances that the marginal increase in peak power is necessary while many NPCs will end up picking the latter.

It's a fist load and operates like any other punching improving device.

Representation doesn't matter within the contest of PCs.

Quarterstaff is strong but other options such as the jutte or nunchaku are defensible.

Well I can't know whether people have ideas for what niche it might occupy until I ask them. Plus kobujutsuka seem to perceive utility in it when they already train things like the bo, nunchaku and sai.

I'd appreciate that.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Point budgets are like hard drive space for computers. No matter how much you have, developers and new circumstances will push the limits.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

So its competition, among one-handed blunt wooden weapons in the Basic Set, is:
Light Club (sw+1 or thr+1 cr, reach 1, parry 0, cost $5, weight 3, ST 10)
Nunchaku (sw+1 cr, reach 1, parry 0U, cost $20, weight 2, ST 7)
Baton (sw or thr cr, reach 1, parry 0, cost $20, weight 1, ST 6)
Short Staff (sw or thr cr, reach 1, parry 0F, cost $20, weight 1, ST 6)

A tonfa, by comparison, is:
Tonfa (sw cr, reach 1, parry 0, cost $40, weight 1.5, ST 7)
or Tonfa (th cr, reach C,1, parry 0, same)

A tonfa is the only one of these that can work both at close combat and at reach 1. It's the only one that can be used to attack and parry with Tonfa, Brawling, Karate, or DX at no penalty. It's the only one that can be used to attack with an Easy skill, or be used to attack at no default penalty without having any combat skills whatsoever. It's the only one that can switch to Reverse Grip at no penalty for the technique. And Martial Arts p. 61 notes it as an appropriate weapon for using the Arm Lock technique with: if I'm reading the technique description right, you can do this at full skill without needing to buy the technique up or buy a Special Setup perk.

With all this, you want more of a niche?

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Where are you getting maximum effectiveness? Melee weapons don't have a maximum effectiveness, you can always get more out of them by throwing 4 more points into the skill.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Yeah because for PCs most of those that are even positive are terrible benefits and the ones that aren't are just okayish.

"A tonfa is the only one of these that can work both at close combat and at reach 1."

With thrust crushing which as I've pointed out above is a very minor improvement over enhanced and protected punching.

"It's the only one that can be used to attack and parry with Tonfa, Brawling, Karate, or DX at no penalty.

It's the only one that can be used to attack with an Easy skill, or be used to attack at no default penalty without having any combat skills whatsoever."

PCs have skills though. In fact a weapon that's easier to use is actually a disadvantage because it means that some chump who picks up your weapon is more effective with it. Variety of skills with which you can use it doesn't really matter because you either have one of them to use it with or you don't and the skills don't carry much along with them. RAW Tonfa is also a terrible skill because of how narrow it is. Brawling is an easy skill but it more than pays for that with missing features and just means a reduction in cost if you are hitting a skill cap anyway.

"It's the only one that can switch to Reverse Grip at no penalty for the technique."

Which is a nice thing to throw in for an already solid weapon. However it doesn't actually mean any increased efficacy compared to someone who did buy up the technique so this can't support tonfa by itself.

"And Martial Arts p. 61 notes it as an appropriate weapon for using the Arm Lock technique with: if I'm reading the technique description right, you can do this at full skill without needing to buy the technique up or buy a Special Setup perk."

Of course you can do it at full skill. Full skill is where Arm Lock starts no matter what. Martial Arts p. 61 is also noting that Tonfa is the necessary skill for Arm Lock not that it's unusual in being able to use it. Lots of weapons should be able to Arm Lock.

On the other hand look at a nunchaku which does more swing damage, due to it's half flail ability effectively gives bonus skill even past a skill cap and even weighs more. Or a jutte which is an impressive disarming tool while being substantially smaller and incidentally has RAW support for being a kusarijutte instead. Or a bokken which can do more swing or thrust damage, can optionally be used two handed for even more damage and weighs more. Even a short baton allows swing damage at C range.

If you don't have a cap on skill levels then yes. Otherwise you buy the skill to max and then pick up the good techniques and perks. Technically you can keep improving but the other purchases are really quite narrow in applicability.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Yeah, if you're working with a skill cap that is low compared to your available points, that does explain a number of the things you're saying that wouldn't otherwise make sense.

Given your willingness to make a custom Jutte with a protective hilt, why not steal the Jutte's disarming prongs and stick them on the Tonfa? Or whatever other weapon. LTC2 p15.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

It is a great weapon option.

That brings up an important point as well. If the tonfa isn't performing excellently then change it. I'd also be interested in ideas for realistic alterations of a tonfa that might make it perform better.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

If there were realistic options to make the tonfa better then we would already see them in real life. As soon as you put a parrying/disarming prong on a tonfa, you lose half of the other techniques it can be used with.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Another "any useful hoplological improvements must already exist" thing? It's not a bad guideline but it's simply not that absolute. Every improvement people came up with had a period of time before during which it didn't exist, many improvements don't appear until the right need appears, some improvements are marginal enough that not spending the resources on developing them makes sense, not all weaponry options appear everywhere they could be developed and many improvements make something worse in the wrong hands. It's ridiculous to just automatically refuse any possible improvement to low tech equipment because it doesn't already exist.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Even if we suppose that that's true for the real-life purposes, the constraints Sindri is analyzing under are very different from those that lead real people to use tonfas. So there's no reason that the 'optimal' real-world tonfa would be the best version for the purposes here.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

I'll raise you the Compound Bow. A massive improvement in usability that could have been created by Rome, if not earlier.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

I hope the policemen don't know how to use them effectively then... Or know how to use them much more effectively than I can to avoid harming people (which is not hard, actually; I'm just a beginner in kobudo).

Oh, I forgot to tell...

Some people think that tonfas are that:
http://www.google.fr/imgres?imgurl=h...ed=0CCoQrQMwAg

They may be. And these seem not to be very effective, indeed. The tonkwas I am talking about are that:
http://www.google.fr/imgres?imgurl=h...ed=0CCQQrQMwAA

Mine weighs 1 pound (a piece) and are just training tonkwas. If the craftsman who made them (a black belt kobudoka) had to make true weapons, he would use an even harder wood.

Which sounds to mean than the GURPS tonfa's stats are those for the police soft version...

Just note (but I'm sure you already know it) that in Okinawa, the police weapon was the sai, not the tonfa.

As a third dan karateka, I can assure that if someone never learned to use tonfa, he'd better never take it as a weapon. It's quickness to turn around once arm with a little wrist impulse make it a very dangerous weapon for the untrained user!

In kobudo, it is taught after bo (quarterstaff) and sai because it is harder to learn.

The bo is a very good weapon, indeed. Its ability to keep foes at bay and to parry very quickly are good – and very well simulated in GURPS rules.

But it is a pity that GURPS tonkwa has not such a treatment in GURPS rules. As I said previously, it strikes much faster than any other kobudo weapon... It's ability to kill with one blow to the skull or to destroy knees are not really handled, because it doesn't do enough damage. One of my karate and kobudo sensei is a tonkwa specialist. She has something like ST 10, ST 11 at best. So, in GURPS terms, she is only supposed to deal 1d+1 cr with a swinging tonkwa blow. Hard to kill an average guy with that. Even hard to knock him out...

The quickness and the strength of tonkwa's blows is not taken into account. Tonkwa is considered by kobudokas as a much dangerous weapon than a nunchaku. And giving tonkwas the same damage than a light club is not at all realistic.

Furthermore, allowing a karateka to use a tonkwa to punch and parry freely is neither realistic, as I said above. Maintaining the tonkwa firmly on the arm requires a lot of training. And the hikite is very different. A karateka not specifically trained to use tonkwas would inevitably hurt himself. Despite 2 years of kobudo training (and 16 years of karate training), I wouldn't use it in a true combat. I'm not trained enough. I would rather use the bo, which is less dangerous but inflicts (in reality, not in GURPS) less damage.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Realistically, the most obvious improvement is to put a blade on the end of the thing (perhaps a hidden one?), but then we're starting to stray from the 'one-handed wooden crushing weapon' niche that you seem fond of.

You seem somewhat preoccupied with the softness and lightness of polycarbonate police batons. Have you actually handled one? They aren't toys. This example weighs a pound and a half.


Are you ignoring hit location modifiers? 1d+1 cr is (1d-1)x4 damage when applied to the skull. A roll of 1 or 2 will 'only' deal 4 damage, applying the maximum possible shock penalty. A roll of 3 will deal 8 damage, forcing a knockdown roll at -10. A roll of 4 or 5 will deal 12-16 damage, forcing a knockdown roll at -10 and a HT roll to remain concious. And a roll of 6 will deal 20 damage, forcing all of the above plus an HT roll against outright death.

You think it deserves more damage? How much more?

There are some very basic principles of leverage which make that highly unlikely.

You're making an awful lot of authoritative pronouncements about kobudo weapons for a beginner.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

sw cr/thr cr seems to where GURPS pegs the damage for most relatively short lengths of wood. The baton, jo wielded as broadsword, dusack and short staff are all set there. I'm pretty sure that the GURPS tonfa is what is intended to be used for a traditional tonfa. At ST 10 you get the light club and bokken wielded as broadsword with sw+1 cr/thr+1 cr. Do you think the tonfa should edge into that territory?


To be fair, what's being described is totally foregoing the actual Tonfa skill, never changing from honte-mochi and only using it to parry and act as an enhancer for unarmed style strikes. That's presumably easier than actually learning how to use a tonfa for someone who already has skill with unarmed martial arts. Given the broad body of stuff already included in a GURPS unarmed combat skill that doesn't seem unreasonable. I'm sure most karateka would also be nonplussed if handed a bladed hand and expected to fight with it after spending the time to gain familiarity but that's also something that GURPS Karate lets you do.

Do you have any suggestions for how the stats GURPS tonfa might be modified to reflect your experience?

It's a natural modification and a hidden one still looks like a blunt weapon but it also seems like it would be either a bit dangerous in the stabbing-self department or require foregoing the whole grip changing thing the tonfa has going on.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Thank you for that information. I just thought they were softer.

I'm not ignoring hit location modifiers (note than a roll of 1 gives no damage at all). I'm just wondering why a light club do as much damage as a tonkwa. When you make it circle around your twist, the lever effect of the tonkwa is much more effective than the one of the light club.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8V--2H9lj0


Not very much. Something like swing+2 would fit, in my humble opinion. And it would allow to make a difference between heavy and lighters tonkwas.

Precisely. P = 1/2 ms² (P: power; m: mass; s: speed). The speed you can give to the end of a tonkwa by making it circle around your twist is far much greater than the speed you can give to a bo. As I said, a shomen tonkwa attack (vertically on the skull) requires a very specific parry. A shomen bo attack doesn't.

Because I learned a lot. I'm a beginner in term of practice, not in term of theory. And, in GURPS rules, since I learned karate for 16 years, quite intensively, I'm very good with tonkwas!
:-)

To stop kidding, here is another video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILzmQoAkirU

Wait for the kata done at full speed, to understand what I want to mean. And don't be surprised by the posture on one foot. It is not unbalanced because there is a kaisai (hidden technique) inside: a kick that is not shown during the kata.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

I think that swing+2 cr / thrust+1 cr would be perfect.

Yes. But that is very hard to handle a tonkwa. Its ability to circle around the twist makes its strength... But it really becomes a weakness if you are not used to handle it: it can twist during your punch or even on the target, when you hit it. Furthermore, you can easily knock your own ribs when making hikite (taking back the other arm), your other arm when making a parry, etc. It is really a dangerous weapon! Even for the user...

Yes... And it's neihter realistic. Being very good at karate doesn't make someone being very good with tonkwa or any other weapon. It would be like saying than being very good with guns make you being very good with bows (or vice versa) because you learned to aim.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Oh, I forgot to tell... Happy new year to everyone!

I really enjoy GURPS and people here because you all make me think a lot, open my points of view, understand things better... Thank you very, very much to all of you.

Have an amazing year, full of GURPS, of course, and all other things you like!

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

I honestly think what you are describing comes under GURPS resolution as the Weapon Master advantage. The video you linked to gives evidence to this (IMO). It's the difference between someone who is merely skilled (i.e. trained with a light club), vs someone who has the benefit of generations of skilled knowledge passed down in how to generate real power with a light weapon (relative to other battlefield weapons). WM would give a ST 10 user +2 to both swing and thrust, which is enough to bring the damage up to the level you are looking for.

Note that this doesn't mean every real life trained practitioner of the tonfa/tonkwa is a "Weapon Master", it means only that this is how the GURPS game handles this kind of difference.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Weapon Master is not a realistic trait. It does not represent real martial artists, even real martial arts masters.

Personally, I'd just put it to 'martial artists are strong', and the fact that people aren't actually that hard to break. +2 ST over Gollum's expectation explains the results just as well as tonfas actually being way more awesome than other virtually-identical sticks.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Yikes! That's the same as a lot of unbalanced maces (Small Mace or Round Mace), or as a 6-foot staff (4 lbs) being swung in *both* hands. Seems excessive to me - I can't see the available mass and leverage of a tonfa achieving comparable striking force.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

I never claimed it was.
I would make it +2 Striking ST, to represent that 'martial artists know how to hit hard' rather than '...are strong'. YMMV.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Were you not talking about Gollum's claims about the real performance of tonfas?
I probably wouldn't, but some of it could come from Trained ST benefits if one were to generalize those from Technical Grappling.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

I strongly doubt it. The cams on a compound bow are pretty impressive bits of machinery, and likely require higher tolerances (and better steel) than you are going to have before about TL5. I'm not sure that natural fiber strings would be up for it either, at minimum friction with the cam seems like it could be pretty hard on them.

Well, and better understanding of mechanics than exists before then to design in the first place, though that's something that could presumably be done through trial and error.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

The problem of Weapon Master, as said by Ulzgoroth, is that it is not supposed to be a realistic advantage. Having said that, your solution is an elegant one.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

The original compound bow, and cams, were wooden, put together by a tinkerer in his garage. Having seen early ones on display, they could have been built much earlier, not unlike stirrups.

My original point was intended to be that sometimes great ideas can still be found for old designs. The reason something wasn't done sooner may simply be that no one thought of it yet.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Yes... For the 6 feet staff, no problem. We are using bo of about this length and I am almost sure that a tonkwa hits harder*. In my humble opinion, the explanation is simple: the circle move of the tonkwa makes the speed of its end faster than the one that once can reach with a two handed wooden weapon. Furthermore, the specific tonkwa's shape improves its acceleration (with different mass repartitions : the tonkwa, like a mace, is unbalanced)...

But for the comparison with the small mace and the round mace, it is a problem, indeed. It really sounds exaggerated. A metal weapon logically hits harder... Especially against armors!

Having said that, here again, in collisions, the speed is more important than the weight.

We are at the limits of GURPS granularity, actually.

_____

* I never made any scientific experiment to prove it, though.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

There is an argument that it's important for skills to be fairly constant in broadness. +1 skill level in GURPS Karate gives you +1 to hit any location of any kind of foe wielding any weapon with any karate technique while you're in any posture wearing any kind of equipment. Now martial artists certainly do improve in their general skill no matter the circumstances and some of those will provide things like familiarity penalties but a lot of training does also build around certain assumptions below the level of training for things like targeted attacks so that realistically your general combat ability should probably not only be lower but advance slower than fighting within the context that you trained for. Compared to things like skills handling the sciences combat skills are also already super finely grained.

Happy new year.

Weapon Master carries too much baggage with it. ST limited to specific applications in the same manner as the improvements unarmed skill get makes sense. That Technical Grappling's Trained ST continued in the direction of baking in them in to the skill levels rather than having them bought alongside is aggravating but ignoring that it's a mechanic with promise that could easily be applied to weapons.

I could see an argument for a tonfa being increased to sw +1 cr/thr +1 cr but I just can't see a tonfa hitting as hard as weapons longer than it wielded with both hands.

A metal weapon doesn't automatically hit harder at all. It has better material properties for penetrating armour, is easier to make in certain useful shapes and you can stuff more weight into a convenient shape if you want, but metal absolutely doesn't automatically get a damage bonus.

Weight is very important in determining what damage weapons do.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Not really, Force = Mass X Velocity

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

As I wrote it above, physicists say than when dealing with a collision:

Power = 0.5 x Mass x speed ²

If they are right, speed is much more important than weight.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

That's not Force, that's Impulse. Force = Mass × Acceleration.

Anyway, in GURPS, damage seems to be proportional to the square root of kinetic energy (e.g. dice = (move × HP) ).

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

To be complete, momentum is conserved, energy need not be. And generally, force is the rate of change of momentum (that's how newton expressed it, actually F = dP/dt, or d(mv)/dt, and since at usual velocities, mass is constant, F = m dv/dt = ma

Energy is usually involved in penetration and some types of injury; it must be involved in deformation.

Momentum seems very, very important in hand weapons. Not that energy isn't, but you can't discount the impact (so to speak) of the MV quantity when using weapons.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Penetration proportional to sqrt of KE. ST-based injury and penetration are related to ST, which is (more or less) the square root of force, or maybe force over a reach-based distance. Hard to say, since the basic formula for ST-based penetration and injury is basically "one point of ST is one point of swing damage extra. Until you exit a certain regime. Then it changes."

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Wow... Thank you for that physics lesson. The formula I quote just came from very distant memory of my secondary school... About 30 years ago...

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

I skipped that one... Sorry...
I fully do agree with you here.

It's even worse! In GURPS, strength is only one basic attribute. In reality, every sport, martial art or other physical activity makes you improve your muscle in a way that would't really fit to another activity. A very good karateka, for instance, would make a very poor climber, runner and vie versa.

GURPS correct that a bit with the optional striking and lifting strength. But even then, a good weight lifter would make a poor karateka. And even if we remain in martial arts, a good karateka would make a poor fencer and vice versa...

All these people do a lot of muscle training exercises... But their musculatures are still very different...

Having said that, GURPS has to be a playable game.

This is right too.

That is still what I learned. A tonkwa hit harder than a bo... The problem with two handed weapons is that even if you can put more strength in your blows, your move is less free, somewhat hemmed or slowed down, especially when the weapon is very long.

The difference of speed between the bo and the tonkwa when I look the black belt during my kobudo trainings is really awesome.

I fully do agree. The problem of armor is still very important. A tonkwa may be almost as effective as a small mace when hitting a target without armor, its ability to damage a target with armor is obviously not the same.

Yes, especially when the difference of speed is not great (even when it is easily perceptible).

My main problem with the tonkwa damage as they are written in GURPS rules remains the comparison with the light club. It is impossible to give to a light club the impulse and force you can give to tonkwa. Unless I really don't understand what GURPS calls a light club.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

A lot of that might just be muscle dynamics; a heavier weapon lets you apply more total force (I wrote about this a while back here). There are also issues of impact dynamics, where a compact striking head produces higher peak force than a rod or blade even if the total energy and momentum is the same.
What GURPS calls a 'light club' is actually a rather heavy club.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Well, yeah. Penetration equals damage for normal penetrators (i.e. not APHC or 'bodkin' or armour-piercer blade shape or something like that).

And yeah, ST damage is funny. Needs rescale in the mythical 5e / maybe some Alternate GURPS. Probably will need scaling up HP and firearms damage, since a +1 to ST still needs to provide a meaningful difference to damage (otherwise it's a very disappointing buy).

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

I'll give you an alternative. We keep hearing about the tonfa's speed in one particular strike. Special strikes that do more damage than basic ones are common in MA. See Uppercut for just one example.

So giving the tonfa +1 damage on this strike only might be a good option. It might change the tonfa from Thrust to Swing. In most grips the tonfa will be doing only Thrust.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

think thats a good call. Since the Op talks abut how hard it is to learn just give it a special technique.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Trained Strength is a fairly playable mechanic as is bought up ST with limitations.

Specifically it's a 3 pound weapon, starts at reach 1, requires ST 10 and can't be used with Knife. That's twice the weight of the GURPS tonfa, longer reach than it on a thrust and 3 ST higher of a requirement.

Or for another weapon specific technique like this there is Crack.

I'm the OP, not Gollum.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

The standard intro physics textbook (Halliday&Resnick) at one time analyzed the kinematics of brick/board-breaking in karate. The short version is that the brick could absorb 50% less energy before breaking than the board, but required 20% greater fist speed in order to transfer enough momentum to achieve that energy transfer.

Breaking bone (or bending armour) is likely to have similarities, which is likely one reason momentum is so important for hand weapons.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Thank you for the informations about the light club. It is a far much heavier weapon that what I imagined...

What I realized this morning, while reading again (and more attentively) the whole list of melee weapons in Martial Arts, is that the tonkwa is supposed to deal less damage than the jo. The comparison with the bo may be debatable... But the one with the jo is certainly not.

So, I fully do agree with Sindri now. The tonkwa could be raised to sw+1 cr (instead of sw+2). It would make it as powerful as the jo handled with two hands, which would take into account its very specific speed when turning around the wrist, without making it as powerful as a small or round mace.

For the thrusting damage, I wouldn't change anything. As far as I know, it has no special quality when punching with it (except being harder than a naked fist).

This would give:

• Tonkwa, sw+1 cr
• Or, thr cr

And would perfectly fit to that weapon, in my humble opinion.

Yes. Building some specific techniques for the jo could also make the job. And the Uppercut one, with its improve damage, is a very good example.

Swirling attack*, average, +1 to damage.

After all, designing a couple of interesting techniques may be the way to make the Tonfa skill more attractive, Sindri.

_____

* I don't know if swirling is the word that really fit.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

You're right. I often claim how adaptable is GURPS but sometimes still forget to what amazing point it really is.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Alright, let's put together some of Gollum's statements about the tonfa/tonkwa to generate a technique.

First, we're talking about a technique of spinning the tonfa to strike. I'm going to assume we're starting with it in a normal (Reach 1) grip and making a full circle to build up speed and hit.

Gollum's statements imply something like +2 to sw damage. He's also made note of the tonfa being unbalanced when used like this, implying difficulty in following up the maneuver with a Parry.

Altogether, I'd say this is probably a Hard Technique with a +1 to damage, typically used as part of a Committed or All Out Attack (Strong). The spinning may make it a bit more difficult to avoid - a -1 to Parry and Dodge may be appropriate. You can easily screw up the spin, and it's the same basic motion as Reverse Grip, so I'd say the ability requires an "activation roll" at full skill, which is probably good for a +1. That means it's either at -1 (just damage bonus) or -4 (damage bonus and defense penalty). I'll leave it to those with more experience with combat and/or physics to determine if it's Realistic or Cinematic - but if the latter, it's probably only lightly cinematic (meaning it's probably appropriate in a realistic game, but not in one using Harsh Realism). A more cinematic version would get a further +1 to damage (for +2 or +1/die total) and be at a further -2 to skill.

Someone with Striking ST 11 (skilled martial artists probably tend to have at least this) can thus use this Technique as a Defensive Attack at 1d+1, an Attack at 1d+2, a Committed Attack (Strong) at 1d+3/2d-1, or an All Out Attack (Strong) at 1d+4/2d. Striking a foe in the Skull with even a Defensive Attack has over a 60% chance of knocking the foe out outright (17% chance of 0 injury, 17% chance of 4 injury, 67% chance of a Major Wound; against a foe with HT 12, the first means no chance of knockout, the second only a 1.5% chance, but the third has a 91% chance of dealing a knockout), while the more common Committed Attack (Strong) has either a 91% or 76% chance of scoring a knockout, depending on if you convert the adds to dice.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Well this has been an interesting read. I've got some questions and comments, but I don't want to completely derail the Technique building... so skip this if you don't think you can (or just don't want) to try to answer some of my questions while working on Technique design.

...

Okay, still reading? I don't have GURPS Martial Arts for 4e. Long story short I want it (like I want many things in life), but I'm a bum lucky to have a roof over his head right now (let alone internet access) so I'm not getting to read it anytime soon (s'okay, I still need to make time to read Social Engineering ;) ).

Reading this got me glancing at the handful of 3e books I still have on hand (they were too beat up to sell off) I noticed something. Now 3e has some obvious mechanical differences but they shouldn't come up unless we get into a very detailed discussion that even I am not expecting right now. Still, if clarification or further explanation is needed, just ask. The big thing is under 3e Rules, the damage for certain things is different, but other things remain the same. Going through some of the weapons discussed earlier in this thread, nunchaku do +1 damage (that is, sw+2) and even more relevant, the 3e damage rules for tonfa are that when used to augment Karate strikes, it eliminates the usual -2 to damage for unarmed punches and otherwise does thr+1/sw+1. This makes me wonder if it was either intentionally "nerfed" or was simply a victim of trying to save space in the 4e Basic Set rules: there isn't an actual line for Tonfa on the weapons table (well, that I could find). The text for the skill cites treating it as a baton when used that way or holding it alongside your forearm and jabbing with it for thr+1 damage.

So... anyone know why this change happened? There are some other ideas I had, but I'd better keep it as narrow a focus as I'm good with.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

I'd say that if spinning the tonfa gives more damage at the expense of defending with it, it sounds like a text book committed (strong) attack.

And this works well in IMO as you use these things in pairs so you do that with one and parry with the other.

so even at current stats Gollum's ST11 teacher is doing 1d+2 on such a committed attack that on average is a major wound on the Skull of similar target.

At the end of the day the tonfa is baton that's traded reach and an awkward grip for some clever techniques that take skill to leverage.

While I can happily see that a good tonfa strike to the skull or joint is disabling, we are ultimately taking about locations with either a really high damage multiplier, or really low HP threshold for crippling.


Ultimately it's niche weapon and I'd hesitate to up it's damage as it risks being all things to all people. Especially as in terms of weight and size it's closer match to a baton than a small club and its already the same basic Sw damage

FWIW while I can accept the swinging circular attack (relying on momentum induced centripetal force) gets some benefit, I not sure it over compensate for the loss of force from reduced arc length and wrist snap form a more traditional weapon strike. (certainly it doesn't match a 6' staff swung at full extension which I think has been claimed).

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

My problem with using Staff damage as a benchmark is that I think that typical strikes made while enjoying the +2 Parry bonus from using a Staff is far from being a full extension strike.

There ought to be a difference in the damage of a staff used with Staff skill and one used with Two-Handed Sword skill. The former gives up some reach with the swing and significant leverage for increased defensive utility, but in the rules as written, there is no penalty to doing so. Staff does sw+2 and has Reach up to 2 cr no matter how you hold it, so there is no GURPS benefit to styles that also teach Two-Handed Sword skill with the staff.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

I noticed that myself when looking at the damage for 3e versus 4e. That didn't change for Staff but it got me wondering how many weapons are having their damage bench marked based on actual observed weapon use and how much are just gaming estimates, tweaked according to other similar weapons. Also how much of this is 1 point of damage in GURPS is itself a sizable unit. In real life you'd definitely notice the difference of something doing a "fractional" point of damage difference. Hypothetically speaking (I would not do this for gaming purposes) if a tonfa did something like cr+0.5, that could get pretty significant on skull hits.

Again... I'm clueless about this so please understand that I should probably have a bunch of question marks somewhere in there to make it clear I'm asking as much or more than I'm stating these things. >.>

For a better game world representation... I'm wondering if fractional Armor Divisors (Armor Multipliers) would be worth the hassle to better represent some of these things. Higher base damage (for example) but then an Armor Multiplier means against an unarmored foe its quite effective but pretty pointless striking that guy with a breastplate. Does that match the reality at all?

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

that's a good point, and to be fair it's not exactly clear what was being claimed in regards to the full length staff vs. tonfa

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

I'd give it Sw+3 like a great sword maybe

One of my former coworkers refused to carry the issue baton considering it only useful for pulling his pants down. It was about 3ft long, .75 lb, aluminum with no side handle, and was hollow and made lovely ringing noises whenever it struck something hard like a chair by accident

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

My mental image when the word "club" is mentioned is something like an SM+1 knobbed club, or perhaps a tetsubo with the metal studs replaced with the wood just being knotty. The "light club" is a very light weapon in comparison to that.

In my campaign I allow staves, spears, and polearms to be held in "two-handed weapon grip" or in "staff grip" - the former gives full damage and reach while the latter penalizes damage and reach while granting a parry bonus (+2 for the quarterstaff and spear, +1 for most polearms).

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

No problem for the reach. This technique can't be use in close combat. But a full circle is not necessary. Usually, this kind of attack makes half a circle. As shown on the video, the speed is reached thanks to an ankle, elbow and wrist move.

+1 to sw damage in the last post.

Yes. That's why budokas use two tonkwas at the same time. One to attack and the second one to parry.

An all-out attack would be exaggerated, indeed, since this specific attack still allows to parry (with the second tonkwa). But committed attack really fits because the parry may not be so easy...

Hey! But you've got it. No need to improve damage in the rules. The committed attack could just handle this kind of technique...

Wow... GURPS is really great...

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Yes. As said in my post above, I now agree with that.

Not exactly. The tonkwa is much more thick than the bo and the jo. At minimum two times. And, as I said above, its shape is very specific which may improve even more its speed while turning.

Yes. I do agree now. And with the +1 for committed strong attack, it makes the job.

But all that doesn't answer to Sindri questions about how to make tonkwa skill more attractive. After all, it was considered as a very good weapon in Okinawa. Good enough to remain in all kobudo training around the world... So, it surely has some interesting advantages...

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Except all melee weapons can be used with Committed Attack (Strong), and this is meant to be something only tonfas can do (thanks to their peculiar design). A Technique fits the bill nicely. Making it only usable with Committed/All Out Attack (Strong) may be realistic, but I opted to err on the side of usability.

Fair enough. From your description (YouTube tends to be rather laggy for me, so I'm not going to bother with the video), it does sound like this should require a Committed/All Out Attack. The skill roll (really, Reverse Grip roll) that precedes the technique switching from a reversed to normal grip is probably alright.

As for further options for utilizing/improving the tonfa, if katars and patas are usable with Knife, Shortsword, and Broadsword, the tonfa should probably be usable with Shortsword, and the Tonfa skill - like Jitte/Sai, Lance, and Saber - should go away. Cinematic characters may be able to use the tonfa with Smallsword instead (probably a Weapon Adaptation). Another thing to note about the tonfa is that with its low MinST a character with ST 11 is at +1 to make or resist a Feint, suffers only -3 (rather than -4) when making subsequent Parries, and is at +1 for A Matter of Inches (MA110). A character with ST 14 (common for cinematic tonfa users) is instead at +2, -2, +2 above.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Yeah, the problem I have with Staff, Two-handed sword and Polearm is that they all use very similar techniques and body mechanics, so they should be very close in defaults and capabilities. I feel like a staff's defensive awesomeness primarily comes from the length of the weapon and the strength of the grip or stance to apply leverage even at distant points.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Kobudo teaches two manners of handling a bo.

The ordinary one, in which the parry is enhanced because the length of the weapon is the same on both side of your body. You can for instance parry an attack to the knee with one side of the weapon while attacking the neck at the same time with the other side of the weapon...

And a handling like a long two-handed sword. The reach is then longer and the damage may be improve (the lever effect is higher).

When I was comparing tonkwa and bo damage, I was speaking about the ordinary use... Like Icelander, I'm not sure you can have both advantages at the same time...

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

It's probably a victim of space constraints. Martial Arts and Low-Tech allow the tonfa to be used with Brawling, Karate or DX for the grip where the long arm is pointed back to get the fist load/heavy gloves/hilt guard damage bonus and to get protection when using the arm to parry and also to be used with Tonfa to allow the improved Reverse Grip technique and damage and reach deemed appropriate for hitting with the long arm. Presumably holding it like a sword or kama should not give the bonus to Reverse Grip but that's unaddressed.

sw +2 cr is also the damage of a bokken used with two hands.

And it's not like it's kobujutsu's token inconspicuous weapon which could conceivably allow it to stick around without competition in it's niche. Kobujutsu is famous for having the sort of weapons that compete with the tonfa. It does seem like one of the styles that likes to collect weapons but when it comes to slimming down the number of weapons being trained it's my impression that tonfa are really not one of the ones to go.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Bokken are not 6 foot lengths of hardwood. I make my own wasters from cherry, hickory, ash and walnut on occasion, and while lighter in construction, they are extremely powerful great swords, to the point that unarmored, full power exercise with them will produce real injury. A 6-7 foot length of a good hardwood is going to deliver more damage if I hold it at a high guard as a longsword, and deliver a massive overhead strike. That's the sort of strike can cleave a 90 or 100lb deer in half with an actual sword, but will also crack a man's skull wide open with a staff or waster.

There's a big difference from a bokken that's maybe 42" in length and a 58" or 72" length of hardwood.