Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

So what? That's the reason it's used today.
Actually, you seem to be falling into the Ethnically Kewl Weapon trap. Yes, there are martial arts that teach the tonfa. There are also martial arts that teach baton, such as escrima.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Why would a hard wood baton that weighs 1.5lbs and is carried with a side handle and swung one handed do the same damage as around mace that weighed 3x as much has a metal weighted striking head and was swung with two hands.


That is indeed a rubbish baton, but that doesn't mean the 1.5lb proper tonfas (thick hardwood) are suddenly these amazing weapons.

Accordingly i'd make that .75 lb aluminium baton a Sw-1 jo

I think there's tendency in modern day to get used to crappy versions of melee weapon, so when a non crappy version comes along we get a bit over excited.

I agree that tonfa's are certainly thicker then the side handled police batons we're used to seeing. But I'd hesitate to say they are always 2x as thick as bo, jo and staves in general (simply because there's a lot of variables not all bo's and staffs are of universal thickness, and they were pretty universal weapons).



Cool, cheers

Thing is I think there's a tendency in RPGs for players to sit with a weapons book open on their lap and perfect freedom of choice. Not a situation that's historically been the choice.

the Tonfa is a mill wheel handle, you don't make a weapon out of mill wheel handle unless you have no choice.

No in the case of hundreds of years of martial arts developments necessity has been turned into virtue here. And the Tonfa has become more than a mill wheel handle. But it's not a combat weapon, you go go to war with it. It's a specialised weapon for specific circumstances. It's a defensive weapon, as many of these adapted MA weapons. They were having to face angry soilders with better kit. It's designed to value add to karate (or rather teh two were developed side by side to complement each other), it enhanced arm blocks and parrys, it enhances punching and grappling, it can be used to entangle more dangerous weapons.

Accordingly it's going to suffer in comparison to all those lovely swords etc, but that ignores it's context

To be great with sword you need to have spent time learning and you need to have the money for one and the access to one.

To be great with a tonfa you also need to have spent time learning, but the rest is somewhat easier.

More over if you japanese peasant you don't even have teh option to learn a sword based MA so even if you get you hand's on one, you'll never be effective with it.

That said someone who is as equally skilled as you but with a proper length sword will in all likelihood chop you to bits (it just won't be as easy for him)

However to answer the question, I'd say to make the tonfa more attractive, engineer situations where it's a more attractive choice. That can be down to the player making character choices in how they fight, or the GM in how that set up the campaign, covert 5th column action during Ikko-ikki uprising probably a good setting for hot tonfa action, mongol invasion, probably less so!
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This is just an example of what a committed attack with a tonfa looks like, other weapons will have their own committed attacks that won't involve spinning etc, but will still favour damage over defence.

To assume this spinning attack is some amazing thing that separates tonfas in GURPS damaging effect from all other weapons is I think to credit it too much.


EDIT: Mods is crappy OK? (will remove if requested)

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Yes. But that is Martial Arts. It is not supposed to speak only about modern days. To take a comparison, what would you think if Martial Arts only spoke about modern fencing for swords?

Modern use of tonfa is also ethnical. The ethnic group is just different...

And for escrima, the baton is precisely far much better detailed than the tonkwa... Two colomns and an lot of realistic techniques. This is precisely the problem. Not that the tonkwa absolutely has to be detailed. Martial Arts cannot speak about everything. But the problem comes from the fact that Martial Arts speaks about tonfa/tonkwa and just forget for what purpose this weapon was historically designed... Making as if the modern use was the only possible one.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

You're right about the diversity of those weapons. But the ratio length/weight still give a good idea of the thickness of the tonkwa. Bos are more easy to break with a sword or an axe, for instance.

Actually, contrary to what I first thought, it doesn't really solve the problem. As very well said above, all other weapons can use commited strong attack. So, it doesn't change anything in the comparison. It only makes the tonkwa damage more realistic.


Quoted for truth.

Yes. That is why the comparison must be made with other "improvised" weapon: bo, jo, nunchakus... and bokken, like Sindri did, because no warrior would go to war with a bokken.

I fully do agree. And this is another problem with GURPS rules about tonfa/tonkwa. To learn tonkwa, you only have to know karate... Which is absolutely wrong.

There are a lot of situation in which someone more trained than me could use a tonkwa more effectively than a bo. Breaking zombie skulls, for instance, in a Walking Dead like campaign... But with GURPS rules, that is not true. The bo sounds far much better to break bones.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

I certainly agree tonkwa (sorry been using tonfa which I think is Anglicised) are thick and tough and solid. But to be honest a proper Jo isn't a dry branch from the ground, but also pretty thick and tough and solid. A Bo of equal thickness to a tonkwa will be easier to break because the structural difference between long and short lengths of wood.


Well what's the problem your trying to solve, to realistically portray that attack, or to give the tonkwa a super attack that carve's it a wider niche in Low tech?

The answer to both will not be the same, neither will the appropriateness of committed attack as an answer.



That's fine but I think the Tonkwa does fine in that crowd. It advantages is not in so much in it's list stats, but in it's versatility and special rules.

I've just noticed Jo with staff skill is +2 parry!? nah

But "karate" is just blanket term for martial arts largely based on unarmed striking and kicking. It benefits the tonkwa as far as GURPS combat is concerned of course. One skill for armed and unarmed combat, plus that nice retreat bonus.

Of course the reality is the hard division between unarmed and armed skills never exited for a lot of martial arts*. But if we're looking for a niche boost for tonkwa in GURPS that seems a good one. And of course because it uses karate you get the karate damage bonus as well (not to mention more damage for reversed grip)

*which is why the write ups in MA make more sense than just the skill in Characters.

That's a matter of skill not inherent tonkwa superiority. Someone with more training that you will be better at the tonkwa than you, but so will someone with more training in the Bo.


well let's look at that, the Bo is the quarter staff and gets a +2 in damage. reach and raw parry bonuses.

But it's 3x as long (Tonkwa approx 2' long IIRC), and 3x as heavy.

It is better lever, and a two handed weapon.

we're talking apples and oranges.

Just because the quarter staff can bust skulls pretty easily doesn't mean the tonkwa can't.

Especially in hands of someone who knows how to use it (as we showed above).

FWIW I think the tonkwa wouldn't be a great weapon against zombies simply because of the reach and the parry. I chose the staff on that basis alone!

But the tonkwa I can use in C, the zombie gets inside the Staff's reach it could get v.nasty.

I can use a tonkwa to parry without risking getting bitten on the arm,

Basically as above you don't chose the tonkwa for sheer damage output (at least not compared to other weapons) but that doesn't mean it not useful, or not damaging.

In the right hand it's both, but ultimately it is a mill wheel handle, again as above it take some value adding in the form of skill to make it shine.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Though it would be worth separating this off.

Gollum you have twice now implied that the tonkwa is in absolute terms a better weapon than the Bo.

How are you supporting that?

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Yes. Thank you. It will be much more easy.

Not better in absolute terms.

The bo is much better for parrying and much better for keeping foes at bay. It's length allows to keep foes at bay. And the usual manner of handling it allows to enhance parries: you can parry gedan (down) while attacking almost at the same time jodan (up).

Side note: the jo could theoretically do that but not in reality; it is too short to allow it (I do agree with you here).

Now, yes, I think that the tonkwa is better for making damage. As I said it, its semi-circular move, its amazing speed (see the video if you can), the thickness of its wood and its very specific shape allows it to break bones quite easily. The tonkwa is more solid and compact than the bo. And when you hit vertically, you take benefit from its full weight while with a bo, the part which goes down is slowed by the part which has to go up. This is the problem with very long weapons. It is harder to give them a great speed. I can see it in all my kobudo trainings. No matter who handles them, the tonkwa really goes faster than the bo. Not just a bit. Really. It goes so much faster than every other weapon, that a specific parry is required when facing a tonkwa attack jodan.

At the limit, if everybody finds that comparison too debatable, I can understand it. But look at the differences in GURPS:

Bo: sw+2 cr / thr+2 cr
Tonkwa: sw cr / thr cr

The tonkwa is just considered as a short staff (Basic Set, page 273)...

I really think that the model that Martial Arts authors had in mind was a modern tonfa. Everything in the description of the skill, as well as in its damage, shows it. That is not a big mistake... But that makes the tonkwa a very bad choice. The short staff does the same thing, is cheaper, and lighter. And it has a skill full described with a lot of realistic techniques, while the bo has nothing really interesting.

This weapon is still taught throughout the world, even nowadays. There must be a good reason.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

I really must re-emphasize that modern polycarbonate police batons are not made of soft, light plastic. Polycarbonate has a density of 1.2-1.22 grams per cubic centimeter: this is comparable to the densest wood known, lignum vitae, at 1.23 grams per cubic centimeter. Most period Japanese wooden weapons were made from Japanese red oak or Japanese white oak, which has a density of about 0.75 grams per cubic centimeter.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

I'm not speaking about its density. I'm speaking about the manner of handling it and especially the manner of striking with it.

In all video I have watched, policemen use it either to disarm or to hit as if it was a mere blackjack. They never hit like the kobudo sensei in the video. Fortunately! If they did, they would kill or send to hospital a lot of people.

Re: Improving the Tonfa
 

Maybe better than a bo staff held by the middle. Held in a 2H sword grip, no way; the bo is longer, heavier, and two-handed.
Actually, it's harder to give them quickness; if you double the length of a weapon, you also double how far it has to move as part of a strike, so unless you double the weapon speed, it's going to take longer to deliver a strike. It still will generally have a higher absolute speed.
Bear in mind that a quarterstaff in GURPS is a 4 lb weapon, possibly shod with metal; I suspect you're imagining a significantly lighter weight staff.
Why? It's the same difficulty skill, the cost differential is insignificant, and it has one set of capabilities that aren't present in the short staff.
That reason isn't 'damage'. Damage isn't even a significant priority for weapons used for police work.
See the above.