Re: Pyramid #3/72: Alternate Dungeons
 

Pretty much.

QFT. Getting folks involved is good - and these "pointless" options are perfect for it. But as you said this is GURPS. People who want FATE-style playing will play FATE. GURPS enthusiasts will obviously want GURPS. I don't run any of the lines strictly as is - I need to make my own changes and I like to think that most GURPS folk are exactly like that.

Re: Pyramid #3/72: Alternate Dungeons
 

A bard would be Minor Wizardry plus the Bardic Arts Wildcard.

Heroic Archer is the tax since it boosts the Archery Wildcard. There's simply a lack of abilities that depend upon it.

Warrior Training is essentially a replacement for Weapon Mastery, since you can get similar benefits from the Wildcards. But yes, it is mostly a tax to keep people from cherry picking one or two awesome combat abilities while also not restricting them to only Chi Mastery.

Re: Pyramid #3/72: Alternate Dungeons
 

Huh, I will admit I never have considered a RPM wildcard as I have usually encouraged RPMists to take 'IQ to the skies and beyond!' as the way to go about raising RPM skill. I may have to try messing around with it some.

Re: Pyramid #3/72: Alternate Dungeons
 

I think many folks are missing the point of the advantage of the pointless options. That it is quicker to get going with a GURPS campaign with them than the traditional method or even templates.

I don't see to make GURPS like anything else. In fact about the only think I dislike about the Dungeon Fantasy line is that the default is oriented towards 250 pts and not 100 to 150 points. It tries to much to be D&D style fantasy rather than being GURPS Fantasy with Dungeons.

I understand the design reason for 250 pt I happen not to agree with it.

The #1 complaint I get from players is that GURPS has too many options, takes too much time for a prospective referee to make a campaign.

Before I advocated for an all in one book as a leader for each GURPS genre. Fantasy, Horror, and Sci Fi. That character creations revolve around template with copious explanation of the options. The pointless system of Pyramid is even better.

Each package can be built from the core book so character can seamlessly be moved to points when the groups wants to go into that level of detail. In addition allows experienced GURPS players to freely mix in their point based character with other players using the pointless system.

Something that D&D 5e has having great success with the Basic Rules versus the full PHB rules.

Plus the compact format will allow SJ Games preference for GURPS Lite quickstarts to be viable approach as an all in one "try GURPS" instead of having to shepherd a full book through the production process.

Re: Pyramid #3/72: Alternate Dungeons
 

It depends on the DM, and on the settings and such

Starslayer can turn out a fully done and trimmed out character, usually with wonky abilities, to someone else's specifications in about 15 mins

Myself? Ha. No. Nowhere close.

RPMists are extremely easy to create, but that is because they instead shuffle all the nightmarish agony into the torture that is crafting spell load outs. But the charge is easy, you know you want gobs of IQ, imagery, and luck and maybe ritual adept

Re: Pyramid #3/72: Alternate Dungeons
 

Pretty much this. I made 12 DF pregens in 5 hours - full gear, power-ups, etc. That is the normal time it takes for me to make 1 character in one of my typical campaigns.


It emulates DnD because that is what the market wants. People don't want gritty fantasy where cholerea kills them before they go on a adventure. People want to emulate movies like Lord of the Rings or video games like WoW or Diablo. I recently ran a demo at my FLGS for a game system that one out of twenty people I asked to play or who asked to play had heard about. I introduced DF as "sort of like DnD, but more freeform with elements of rogue-like games like Diablo and Torchlight." That pitch brought in five players (which I consider outstanding), made one convert who made me promise to come back next month so his friends could play, and drew a crowd of people from the magic the gathering tournement that watched us play. That right there tells me DF is spot on with those who've never heard of GURPS. I'm sorry you don't like the set-up - perhaps consider using Henchman as starting characters? But it works. And I've seen it work. It's by no means enough information - but it is a data point which reveals much.

This is the GM's job to trim down - not the players.


As I stated - this is a good idea for quick-starts to the line - but not as the basic option for campaigns.

Re: Pyramid #3/72: Alternate Dungeons
 

There's no need to worry/argue about the "pointless" approach replacing GURPS as we know it, changing its direction, or whatever. My article is in an issue with "Alternate" in the title for good reason: it's "Alternate GURPS" (in the Pyramid #3/34, #3/44, and #3/65 sense) for GURPS Dungeon Fantasy.

As for Warrior Training, note that it essentially fills the Weapon Master role, giving access to high-end combat abilities. You do not need this to be a fighter! Every combat Wildcard remains available to those who opt out . . . they just won't get bonus damage from high levels. They can use that slot for Gear or Strong 1 or Strong-Arm instead and get extra damage from fine blades or lots of muscle.

Heroic Archer is a major Ability instead because it does all the usual fancy stuff, enabling rapid shooting and so on. And yes, it's the gateway trait for scouts. Chi Mastery fills a similar role for martial artists and ninja.

Bards are easy: Brainy or Versatile + Minor Wizardry (Mind Control) + remaining Ability slots for one's choice of Charm, Empath, Learned, Linguist, and Negotiator + Heroic Flaws like Inquisitive and Self-Indulgent + Bardic Arts!, Mind Control!, Socialize!, and Swordplay! + remaining Wildcard slots for a few of Arcane Lore!, Con-Man!, Fixer!, Sage!, and Street-Savvy!, depending on your vision. Obviously, you can't do it all at once. Fortunately, you'll gain slots.

Re: Pyramid #3/72: Alternate Dungeons
 

I hadn't delved too deeply into the Wildcard list, but I see now that Warrior Training does indeed give something akin to the old Weapon Master damage bonus - I had thought Weapon Master was dead in this variant, but I see it's very much alive and kicking! In fact, Chi Mastery gets in on that action while it's at it.

I wonder what the other part of Weapon Master - halved penalties for rapid strike and cumulative parries - would be worth. At first glance, a Minor Ability for a single weapon, a Major Ability for a single Wildcard, and a Greater Ability (3 slots) for all weapons might work. Combined with Warrior Training, that puts the single weapon version at [20] (same as One Weapon), the single Wildcard version at [30] (same as Small Class), and the all weapons version at [40] (same as Large Class). A Wildcard is probably more appropriately a Medium Class for [35], and the all weapons version should of course be [45], so we're just a bit outside of our +10% comfort zone. Perhaps not allowing it to apply to ranged attacks is sufficient to make up for this shortcoming?

Here's how it might look. Note this would be a Minor Ability.

Weapon Master 1-3 [Chi Mastery or Warrior Training]. At level 1, this halves the penalties for Rapid Strike and Cumulative Parries for one specific melee weapon - axe, broadsword, halberd, katana, maul, nunchaku, pick, quarterstaff, rapier, spear, etc. For this purpose, all knives count as one weapon. At level 2, this works for a single Wildcard, and only for armed melee applications. At level 3, this works for all melee weapons. For those with [Chi Mastery], the first level may instead apply to all unarmed attacks/parries, and later levels automatically include the same benefit to unarmed attacks/parries.

Re: Pyramid #3/72: Alternate Dungeons
 

Yes, this precisely, especially if the player isn't that familiar with GURPS, or either the player OR GM are in a hurry or pressed for time.

This was my point, which I feel has been misconstrued. I didn't say "GURPS should be like this." I said "GURPS genre treatments should be like this." And I hold to that. The lists of abilities, archetypes, flaws, and skills, plus some loadout options, would be even better than the current template system. It allows a lot of customization while still presenting the user with the basic choices that are inherent in the "pointless" (or really, hidden points) system Sean presented.

Full-on flexible GURPS is at the system's core, which is one of the things that make it so great.


Yeah, you could easily do the lead chapter as "this is what this genre/worldbook/quickstart is about." Second chapter are the choices available for quickstart characters. Four to eight archetypes, then the major and minor abilities, genre-appropriate flaws, and wildcard skills.

Heck, the list of wildcard skills - which are really just lists of GURPS skills available for free using the GURPS Skill Categories document anyway - could be available online as pre-selected by genre with a click-box to add/remove them to taste.

I don't expect GURPS genre treatments to go this way. But I will stand by my belief that GURPS would spread more to new players if it did, especially backed with the already-strong Fourth Edition and supplements.

Re: Pyramid #3/72: Alternate Dungeons
 

I think it's a good idea to point out that the whole Pointless GURPS idea can make creating fleshed-out NPC characters very fast, which is probably one of the best things about it.