[Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

What is the cutoff between the Boating (Sailboat) and Shiphandling skills? In Low-Tech, vessels up to the size of the 50' brig are listed as using Boating (Sailboat), but in LTC 3 the 30' dhow and fishing junk are both listed as using Shiphandling. I had supposed that Boating pretty much only applied to vessels that one could at least theoretically singlehand, and Shiphandling/Crewman was needed for vessels that need a multi-person crew, but this appears to not be the case, since there's no way that one person can run a 50' brig, for instance.

Re: [Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

I think the cutoff is not the size of the vessel but crew. If it requires a crew it requires shiphandling.
Whoops: Just noticed your comment about the brig. Maybe it is the size of the crew?

Re: [Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

You might check this thread. I think there was a discussion or something in there.

Re: [Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

That thread appears to initially agree with me, gruundehn and LTC3, and then bogs down into a wrangle about what skill would be used specifically to be the helmsman of a ship run with Shiphandling (I'd call it Seamanship, personally).

Re: [Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

My theory would be that the skill for the brig is in error.
Isn't that explicit in the rules?

Re: [Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

Well, threads usually bog down in some minutia or another. I was pretty sure some sort of distinction was made before it got totally threadjacked into the never never.

My own feeling has always been that Boating is for individual boathandling, and Shiphandling was for managing a crew. I'd go so far as to say that LT is in error with regard to a Brig, unless one can be feasibly sailed by one person (I'm not sailor of any sort). But that's where I draw the line in the game at any rate.

Re: [Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

I will just say that any interpretation that requires the cox of a rowing eight to take Shiphandling skill jars with me very badly for aesthetic reasons...

Re: [Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

Never paid that much attention to rowing crews, does the cox of a rowing 8 steer or is that race just straight line?

Re: [Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

He could take Sports (Rowing) and get a reasonable default to "real" rowing skills.

Re: [Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

True for me, too. I take "boat" to mean all sorts of small craft, not just craft that one person can handle.

The brig in LT is debatable; at best it's at the upper end of anything that could be handled with Boating, and there's a fair case that it ought to require Shiphandling and Seamanship. There does seem to be a plausible zone of overlap, where big boats may sometimes be bigger than the smallest ships. It's a matter not of absolute size but of the organization of work.

Bill Stoddard

Re: [Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

But the question remains, what trait of the organization is it that governs which skill is used? What leads a 30' single-masted fore-and aft-rigged Badan (LTC 3 p.41) to use Shiphandling, while a 21' single-masted fore-and aft-rigged sloop and a 50' two masted square-rigged Brig both use Boating (Low-Tech, p. 142)? When assigning skills to vessels not mentioned in the books, how does one determine which skill is relevant?

Re: [Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

It's very often the case when it is not clear which skill applies to a particular task that the correct answer is either one. I'd usually divide it that if the captain helps with the steering or sail handling, he's using Boating, if he stands aside and gives orders, it's Shiphandling, and if he changes from one to the other in the middle of the day, he could change the skill he rolls against to do exactly the same thing with exactly the same ship and crew.

Re: [Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

And do the crew then switch off between using Boating and using Crewman, or how would you figure that?

Re: [Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

That sounds plausible to me, at least at a first look.

Bill Stoddard

Re: [Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

I suppose that works. The reason I happened to notice is that I've got a character who owns a ship, and I'm trying to work out what skills to use, but in the end it's up to the GM, I suppose.

Re: [Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

They steer, keep time for the rowing and make the tactical decisions, such as "look for a part of the river where the current is more favourable, at the risk of a slightly longer route?"

It's a highly skilled job, it just doesn't involve much physical effort, unlike everyone else in the boat.

Re: [Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

Possibly the Coxswain uses Boating and the rowers use Oarsman?

Re: [Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

At that point, what are we gaining by the Coxswain not using a form of Shiphandling?

Re: [Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

Yes, last I looked the cox was operating a rudder. Even straight-line races require sticking to that line.

To be honest, I'd probably go for the Sports (Rowing Cox) option in that case. It's a highly specialised sort of boating. But it's certainly not Handling a Ship.

Re: [Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

Like I said, aesthetics. The vessel in question is basically a highly refined TL8 plank of wood, with seating. It is not by any sane stretch of semantics a "ship".

Re: [Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

I think in GURPS, you really don't want to get hung up on the names of Skills any more than you do on the names of Advantages.

Re: [Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

That's pretty decisive, as Shiphandling is specified as not involving any physical activity; you give orders to the guy at the wheel or the rudder or the steering oar. Actually handling the rudder is either an aspect of Boating or an aspect of Crewman. And that means you don't have any separate person in command. So the skill of Shiphandling doesn't apply.

Take just an ordinary rowboat. It can have half a dozen guys at the oars, and maybe one at the rudder, if it has one. But it's pretty obviously Boating. There's nothing in Boating that says it only applies to one-man craft.

Bill Stoddard

Re: [Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

So basically, if there's a guy in charge who doesn't physically help with ship operations, use Shiphandling/Crewman, but if the guy in charge helps physically, use Boating? That's an easy delineation to make. It might raise some eyebrows when it comes to sailors switching between Boating and Crewman based on if the captain is physically helping or not, but it works nicely for the captain.

Perhaps crewmen should use the better of Crewman or Boating? But that doesn't sit well with a sailor on a nuclear aircraft carrier performing duties with Boating. That break actually seems more problematic than the one between Shiphandling and Boating.

Re: [Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

I used to assume that "boat" means a sailing vehicle that didn't carry auxiliary craft, but that appears not to be correct.

Re: [Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

Boating/Crewman=Operation of the vessel
Shiphandling=Operation of the crew operating the vessel

Might make more sense to think of Shiphandling as Crewhandling. And you can do both at the same time, Shiphandling and Crewman, you just get the "doing two things at once" penalty. IMO, you could have a version of Shiphandling to manage the crew of a multi-oared boat, but I would probably default it to Shiphandling as-is, since they're really accomplishing the same thing.

My 2¢

(Sorry, no references right now.)

Re: [Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

After rereading the two descriptions, I don't see Seaman applies to small craft - although if it did, it'd make life easier. Boating looks to include Seaman and Shiphandling, where for large vessels, the two are split. Boating does mention that you use Crewman/Shiphandling split when the vessel's "bridge" requires multiple crew and a captain:

Perhaps that is the simple dividing line: when bridge duties get split among multiple people. Perhaps Crewman represents working together and following orders as much as anything. I'm really not sure and am largely just babbling at this point. I'd be curious to see a Krommunication on this matter.

Re: [Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

I'm not sure they do, though; AFAIK on tall ships it's mostly the captain shouting orders and everyone else following them, or the first mate if the captain's asleep or otherwise occupied.
So would I.

That throws a rowing cox back to shiphandling, which several people are arguing against, though. For those who've done competitive rowing, would you say that being a rower is a significantly different skill than being a coxwain?

It's the same break, I think.

Re: [Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

The one arguing against it said it was "aesthetic"—the problem is that we don't have a skill specific to "commanding the crew of a small oar-driven boat," which is remedied one of two ways: use Shiphandling (the closest analogue), or make a new one (which is just going to be a version of Shiphandling). Whichever makes you (non-specific) feel better.

Re: [Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

I've not done competitive rowing, but I've talked to them a fair bit. I'd say there's a default between the skills, because they deal with the same environment and circumstances, but that they are separate. This is partly because the optimum people for them are very different. Rowers are big and strong, and have very high aerobic fitness; there are competitive classes based on their weight, like boxing, though not as complicated. A cox is selected for being small and light: there are often rules setting a minimum weight. The cox's physical effort is minimal, it's an IQ skill.

An important part of the cox's job is to assist the teamwork of the rowers, by keeping the time and advising them during the race: in the usual setup, the cox is the only one who can see all the rowers, and the only one who can see any of their faces. Eight-rower boats are always coxed, and can't coordinate well enough to make good speed without one. Coxless four-rower is a separate event from coxed four-rower and coxless is harder. Two-rower is sometimes coxed, but my impression is that it's just less useful for pairs.

When people start learning to row in fours and eights, the first thing to learn seems to be the teamwork and taking direction from the cox. Every autumn on the River Cam, the sight of eights of freshman students completely failing to coordinate provides free entertainment.

Re: [Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

I did competitive rowing at school, and I'd modify that a little. A team of eight competent oarsmen will take their time from the stroke (the rower closest to the stern), not the cox; the cox will tell him when to take it relatively easy and when to go for a sprint, but the stroke-to-stroke timing is his job.

So without a cox the eight can certainly make good speed, but what it won't do is go in anything like a straight line.

Re: [Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

I'd really tend to solve this by making competitive rowing into two Sports skills ("Oarsman" and "Cox"), although I'd then allow reasonably generous defaults to and from Boating (Oared). The setup is so artificial when compared to practical, getting-from-A-to-B rowing that this doesn't feel like a kludge. I mean, we'd do cricket or baseball with Sports skills, not with uncomfortable distortions of Throwing and Two-Handed Axe/Mace.

I don't think that one often if ever sees coxing as a refined skill in itself outside of a sporting environment, so we don't really need Shiphandling for things too small to be called a "ship" with a straight face. The chap in the back of the pirate longboat yelling "Row, ye scurvy whoresons, or we'll all swing from a Navy yardarm!" at the mob on the oars is just using Boating (floated to IQ), or Leadership, or Intimidation.

Re: [Low-Tech] Boating vs Shiphandling
 

That sounds right to me. I was thinking about making a similar point, but hadn't gotten my thoughts so well organized.

In a larger craft, say a trireme, you have the skill of Crewman (Oarsman), which lets you act as crew on a large galley. But the same skill is used to steer the ship, because the tasks aren't so finely divided up game mechanically as to have two different skills. Probably the rowers base their rolls on HT, though, where the steersman bases his on DX or IQ.

Bill Stoddard