[Basic] Advantage of the Week (#9): Ambidexterity
 

Last Week: Alternate Identity; Temporary Identity; Zeroed
Next Week: Amphibious; Aquatic; Semi-Aquatic

Ambidexterity (p.B39) is one of those Advantages where the name is spot on: for 5 CP your character is equally proficient using his right or left hand (surprisingly, no rules handy for if you have more than that). This might seem like a Perk level Advantage except the penalty for offhand Skill use is -4. Said penalty is interesting because it is the starting point for the the Off-Hand Weapon Training Technique, which takes 5 points to train a single weapon Skill to the point that you can attack with the offhand at no penalty.

In real life, people can learn to be ambidextrous, and to varying degrees of efficiency; the number I've heard tossed around for those people naturally able to use either hand equally well is about 1 in 100, but tracking down a suitable source for that "fact" is proving trickier than I'd hoped, so take that with a grain of salt. Especially when dealing with older relatives, I've heard stories of how the left-hand dominant kids were forced to learn how to use their right hand in school, and even without the imposition it apparently is a common thing: some devices are just trickier/more expensive to make without favoring a single hand, and since most of the population is right-handed, the left-handed have to adapt or pay more.

Anyway, that little tangent was brought up because Ambidexterity is one of those Advantages that I assumed could be "learned", but it isn't part of the list on p.B294. I think my gaming group from 15-20 years ago, using 3e, allowed it as a house rule, but at the same time I don't think anyone ever bothered; Ambidexterity was priced at 10 CP under 3e rules, plus if you only really needed it for a single weapon, in 3e Off-Hand Weapon Training was 6 CP: one point more than in 4e, but four points less than 3e Ambidexterity.

So...

1. How often do you take Ambidexterity for characters you run?
2. Does it seem useful (especially if you have taken it)?
3. What about other players you know, NPCs, etc.: is it rarely seen or a frequent choice, and does it seem like it is worth it?
4. Does it seem under-, over- or correctly priced to you?
5. What circumstances might justify tweaking the price?

Based on my limited personal experience, for many characters the off-hand penalty comes up so rarely that it would practically seem like Perk territory. For anyone with a combat emphasis (let alone focus), it can be quite the CP saver, however if you've only got one or two Melee skills where it would matter, one might be better off sinking starting CP into another Advantage only available at character creation, and just learning Off-Handed Weapon Training (even if in the long run you're overpaying).

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

Yes ... this is a bug that was fixed in Martial Arts, on p50, because 5 points is totally overpriced for a technique for one weapon when actual Ambidexterity is the same price.

Off-Hand Weapon Training is now a perk that eliminates the penalty entirely for a single skill. Anyone dedicated enough to buy five of these is allowed to trade them in for Ambidexterity, making it a learnable advantage.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

If someone finds their right hand offensive and cuts it off, would you require them to buy full Ambidexterity to lose the -4 penalty to everything or would you do it some other way.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

[5] feels right for the advantage. Any time I wanted to make a character who uses both hands, I buy it without question. Mind, it's almost always more efficient to just get the perk, but I like ambidextrous characters. The only reason I don't think it is too cheap is because no one takes it unless they want it, and it's cheap enough to never question.

One thing I would change is, you should have dominant hands equal to half of what you have, rounded up, e.g. a four-armed person has two dominant arms, either their 'right' or 'left'. I don't know where, but Kromm pointed out you aren't dominant with any Extra Arms unless you get Ambidexterity. Which I only accept because once a race has six+ arms, they probably are ambidextrous, or took Extra Flexible on their arms (which 'includes' Ambidexterity).

Depends on realism level and player want. In a cinematic campaign, I'd make the -4 a familiarity penalty and let them 'exchange' their dominant hand (in case it would ever come back). This would even naturally happen over time in realistic campaigns. They may also buy it if they want the benefits right now, and then they keep the full trait if their hand comes back.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

Handedness is a zero point feature, so I doubt any GM would have a problem with allowing the character to switch, with at most a training montage.

I couldn't being far far too left handed. I would have to suffer one arm and greatly reduced manual dexterity.
Ham handed might work rather well I think for effects.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

Does anybody know whether amputation actually results in opposite-handedness over time in humans, as with the fiddler crab?

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

I think that's too subjective to pertain to Gurps objective numbers.
In reality, handedness is more about preference than untrained coordination or strength, despite that being the common assumption.
Whether, and how long after removal, preference changes is probably just as much an issue of personal interpretation than clinical test results.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

That varies from person to person, really.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

I find that some players seem to be obsessed with this advantage and take in on all characters. Myself, I don't see it as especially useful at all, compared to Off-Hand Weapon Training for whatever it is you are actually planning on using off-handed.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

I worked for some months with a fellow who had lost the use of his right arm in a shooting accident at the age of sixteen. At fifty-six his writing with his left hand was still very much what you'd expect of someone writing with his off hand.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

My brother still writes like a 5 year old despite having both hands. Then again he actually decided to be left handed to be different. My right handed brother and I had a weird childhood tug of war with his handedness.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

Wonderful! That really sounds just about right, if not spot on, as a they way to handle it. On the other hand... still no idea how to handle it in multi-limbed races/supers.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

Half your limbs are "off". Off-Hand Weapon Training ignores "off" penalties regardless of limb used.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

That works for games, but I don't think it's realistic. Multiple limbs of hand level coordination takes an enormous amount of brain power. Even octopuses have a single preferred arm.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

I would want the end state to be Ambidexterity on the character sheet, because it would be really strange for you to get so used to it that you'd need to work at it to change back if you ended up regenerating the lost hand.

Absent actual therapy, I think some analog of the rule for absorbing languages by immersion works well - some number of hours per day (probably lots, you use your hands a lot) counts as on the job study time toward buying Ambidexterity, or whatever other reasonable compensatory advantage the GM thinks you might reasonably acquire to offset a loss.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

The fact is that the OHW technique is priced fairly compared to other techniques to buy off situational penalties. That it's not a good deal compared to Ambidexterity probably means that Ambidexterity isn't priced correctly since its basically a wildcard technique to buy off all off-hand penalties. 15 points might be a better choice.

At 5 points it is a too-obvious pick for anyone who wants to do any double-handing. There's no question whether to take it or not. At 15 points it's more of a character-defining trait, and more appropriate for its actual rarity in real life.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

It's only truly useful in niche occasions where you can't use your primary. I don't see 15 points of utility on par with Combat Reflexes or Empathy.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

Yeah, assuming a combatant, switch to Rapid Strikes and/or Combinations. Ambidexterity is a dubious deal with TbaM as-is, it's gonna be near-useless at [15].

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

In essence it turns your mediocre back up into a really good one. I would demand added primary function for 15 points.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

One of the things I mentioned before was that back in 3e, it only cost 10 points and the general impression was that it was overpriced. You raise a good point, but perhaps you should consider it going the opposite direction:

If Ambidexterity is fair at [5], then perhaps Off-Hand Weapon Technique is overpriced, the penalty for using the offhand is too severe and/or Techniques aren't quite properly priced? In this case, RAW has revealed that at least Off-Hand Weapon Technique is overpriced, as it is now available as a penalty eliminating Perk.

I am kind of counting on the rest of the board showing me the error in my thinking, but I wonder if -2 penalty is more accurate for using your off hand; I mean it is kind of like having an "unfamiliar model" penalty for your own hand since it is still your hand, just not the dominant one with which you are "more familiar". A +2 circumstantial bonus seems inline with a Perk. I still wonder if we shouldn't have "Easy" Techniques as an option to reflect those things that you do still perform at a penalty (or equal to skill) but that you can rapidly raise disproportionate to the control skill's level.

In case I sound far more confident and demanding than I mean to be, I haven't even jotted this down before to give it a good once over, let alone tested it in play or real life, so... yeah. Mostly for entertainment value and to underscore why sometimes, specific mechanics don't play nice with each other. XD

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

It's common opinion that the offhand weapon perk is the best way to go and that the technique was unfairly priced.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

It's clearly more significant than mere familiarity penalties. I shoot much much worse off-hand with a weapon that I've probably justified Weapon Bond with than I do even with a wholly unfamiliar firearm (which GURPS RAW gives ridiculous penalties for). Isn't a perk that removes a penalty the same thing as an "Easy" technique? Either way it's not going to cost less than a point.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

And getting rid of off hand penalties certainly takes more training than acquiring familiarity does...

How many times in your life have you been able to shoot a wholely unfamiliar firearm by GURPS standards? It's a fairly high bar...

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

I didn't mean for it to cost less than a point; my poor idea was designed so that the Perk would be Akin to an Easy Technique... but don't worry, I believe you! My idea just makes it more complicated, not less, and is thus a failure.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

Nah, it means all techniques are overpriced. Note how it is never worthwhile to have more than 3 per skill. At 1/4 the price of raising the entire skill they'd need to apply to something like a quarter of the uses of the skill to be reasonably priced.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

That might lead to technique booms like 3rd's skill bloat issue.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

Is it? Even changing cartridges invokes a RAW familiarity penalty. The Colt SAA, the M9, the M4, the M249, the AKM, and .50 cal. matchlock muskets all have penalties from each other for at least one of the things on B199 and that's just a few of the different weapons I've fired off the top of my head.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

I think guns have one of the shortest familiarizing time frame out of all skills.
They're carefully designed to be as user friendly and idiot proof as possible. Of course that doesn't help when the designers are "idiots".

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

I was taking "wholely unfamiliar" to mean achieving the maximal unfamiliarity penalty, not achieving any unfamiliarity penalty.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

Well, okay. I don't think that it matters in comparison to handedness. I shoot better with default and familiarity penalties than I do with a familiar weapon and skill left handed.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

Is this what we see in nature? First - do animals have handedeness issues? Second- do animals with more than four limbs limbs have handedeness issues? Third - do radially symmetrical animals have handedeness issues? Fourth - why do humans have a handedeness issue?

Looking at making ambidexterity a species trait for extraterrestrial species.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

The more linguistically adept a species is the more handed individuals there are. Parrots have similar proportions to us 85/15 but reversed. Left clawed more common.
The asymmetry tilts with which hemisphere hold the language centers most often. In humans it's the left, with parrots its the right.
I've read that most other animals have an 80/10/10 split with no preference being the most common.
I've read of octopuses having a single preferred limb.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

I've been told — but I did not see the research paper myself — that people with ambidexterity perform slightly worse than people with a distinct handedness at tasks that involve co-ordinated use of both hands, such as aiming a rifle.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

Well then it would seem that terrestrial handedness is generally a function of the growth of one part of the brain for language and the basic model of brains being very similar (though the octopi do bear watching) accounts for it. That may not hold true for extraterrestrial species so I am thinking there is no onus to letting them be ambidextrous. Unless of course handedness would be a trait that crosses species lines because of ancient life seeding programs with the same root stock.....(Cue portentous music)

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

If it's supposed to be feature instead of just the Ambidexterity advantage, it needs to have some kind of downside. GURPS racial templates represent differences from humans, not some kind of universal basis.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

Handedness is merely specialization. And it's hard to imagine a species that gets the best of both sides without any drawbacks. But life is full of no-fairs, both good and bad.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

I long ago decided that _Ambidexterity_ was a _Hard Technique_ of life. Thus one could buy-off the off-hand penalty in levels.

Though rather than making it 2/3/4/5 I make it 1/2/3/5 to encourage people to take it but leave it at -1. Something I extend to all _Hard Techniques_, it's 1/level but the last is 2.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

I often go for Ambidexterity. Also Extra Attack and TBAM. I like someone dangerous with a wide range of skills and weapons. I tend to play very focused assassin types, the advantages above lend themselves to flexible responses to challenges.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

It would be almost mandatory for any cinematic combat monster, I agree.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

I've just been using a sweeping rule that techniques are [1] to buy off completely (and in gritty campaigns, [1] to be allowed to buy hard techniques per techniques or [10] as an UB to cover all hard ones). I've also used it with the rule that defaults are bought off as RAW techniques instead of [4] per level. It makes me think OHWT is completely fair at [1].

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

Chow Yun Fat characters get on fine with just Off-Hand-Weapon Training (Pistol).

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

Jonny one weapon? That's a bit niche, isn't it?

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

It's pretty typical. Are you saying that Fat doesn't play cinematic combat monsters?

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

Gun fu isn't my preferred action genre, so I just forget Jonny one weapons when discussing combat monsters as a character concept.
He certainly fits cinematic combat monster from what I hear.

Would off hand weapon training cover loading a gun as well?

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

I can't really think of a two-handed movie fighter that uses a bunch of different non-improvised weapons.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

Two handed means if one hand's injured they are toast anyway, regardless of number of dominant hands.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

I meant two weapons, which is relevant to ambidexterity.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

It seems sensible not to put all your eggs in one basket. Rapier and dagger gives more options for example, and in melee that seems needed.

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1) Do we make animals buy ambidexterity?

2) Downsides of ambidexterity as a zero-point feature? Most of what I can come up with are things like it affects writing, personal gestures, tool designs, and architecture for the society of a race of ambi's. Thoughts on more personal downsides?

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

Do we "make" animals buy anything? The bestiary trait lists are supposed to be just traits that are relevant in play. If something has no fine manipulators or no manipulators it hardly ever matters what handedness it should have. Non-human PCs need to either have handedness or Ambidexterity, just like any other PC.
-2 to all two-handed tasks.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

Only those that qualify for human level fine manipulators. Even many that don't may have strong preferences.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

All unarmed fighting skills ignore handedness, if it matters.

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It is an optional realistic rule in Grups: Martial Arts. It would take obscene amount of hard work and time to get my right hand to hit with even 1/2 the force or accuracy of my left.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

Is there a problem with taking it for one skill (or other handed task) at a time, just like for Off Hand Weapon Training?

If you don't have at least five things you want to be able to do equally well with both hands, why are you interested in buying it in the first place?

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

I tend to have my combat characters always purchase Ambidexterity (at 5 points, it does not make any sense to not purchase the advantage). Not only does it make Dual-Weapon Attack feasible with a Skill level 20, it also means that you are not screwed over if one of your hands is crippled from damage.

As for the unarmed combat rules, it makes perfect sense that you would use each hand equally well because every martial art that I have studied trained every limb until they performed equally well, though sometimes they over train the off-hand. In my case, I am right-handed, but my left arm is stronger and more accurate when it comes to punching because I over trained my off-hand during my youth in order to gain an advantage during tournaments against people who expected right-handed attacks (I did the same thing with my left leg). Any martial artists who depends on just their dominant hand is going to be at a massive disadvantage in sparing, tournaments, etc.

Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Ambidexterity
 

I've never met an actual ambidextrous person in my life. It would be literally impossible to train me to use my right hand in any way other than a clumsy child.
But for combat monsters and only costing five points, it is quite common among my characters too.