[RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

Hello again. I have another question regarding Ritual Path Magic. In RPM, p39, Grimoire is Body of Shadow, a spell with 350 energy. How does one exactly gather enough energy for a spell like this without the channeling process blowing up in his face?

Using the Quick and dirty rituals example on p26, A High-End professional Caster (Path Skill 15) has a Safe Threshold of 11. Assuming the caster was able to locate a hundred points of Energy from somewhere ahead of time (Some Magecraft, Sacrificing HP, etc), he would still be left needing to find 250 points of ambient energy. This is 20x his Safe Threshold -- He could not do it!

A Master (Skill 20) would have a safe threshold of 65. With the same Energy ahead of time (100 from other than ambient sources feels like a lot of energy to me), he also needs 250 points of ambient energy. He exceeds his threshold by three times, so he has a +3 modifier to his Safe Cast. ON a 13+, he too can seriously hurt himself. Much better odds than the Skill 15 guy, but it still seems like many spells are really out of reach for casting.

Is this intentional or am I missing something? Is it intended that some spells are death sentences to try and cast, and has anyone played around with alternate ways to make such things more accessible?

Again, thanks!

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

Voluntary sacrifice helps. Either that, or sacrificing many animals via involunatary sacrifice. Some spells either require really high skill, or outside help.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

That's what I was figuring when I assumed a very generous 100 Energy from non-ambient sources. Assuming a mage with 10 HP and 10 FP, Magecraft 8 (24 Energy), he might be able to cough up 30-40 points of energy from himself plus 60 points then from involuntary sacrifice, draining the energy out of the land, etc.

It just seems like when you get to spells of 120 Energy or more in cost that it becomes extremely unlikely to see them cast...

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

An RPM caster I'm making for an MH game has base skill of 18, +2 for his charm kit, and can easily afford a +6 grimoire, giving a total effective skill of 26.

Effective skill of 15 isn't a professional RPM caster at all, much less a high-end one.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

I'm going to have to disagree with that assessment. I am pretty positive I've read in several places that a skill of 13 is considered a professional level. I'm also pretty positive that i've read somewhere that skills of around 25 are pretty grandmasterish.

Did I imagine reading this under skills somewhere?

Edit: 13 is off by 1 depending on interpretation of what "expert" means vs. "professional", but B172 has a panel that discusses what skill levels can be comparable to. Notably a 14 is an expert. Masterful levels is 20 to 25. I don't believe im far off when i consider a high end professional being around 15 -- i suppose he should be closer to 18... but 26 effective skill level is pretty high for me, especially right out of the gate for character creation. I'm gonna have to just write that off as differences in our power levels for starting games.

Even a Path Skill-18 character is going to have a hard time not harming himself on the Body of Shadow spell. Your character with his effective skill of 26 is going to be around a safe threshold of 125, so granted he's less likely to blow himself up.. (Still can tho!). I'm really positive I don't want all my mages running around with Effective Skill 26 just to be able to do that kind of magic for 10 minutes.

A +6 Grimoire is 3,500 -- out of the price range of starting equipment for a TL3 Average Wealth. Comfortable can't afford it, and a Wealthy character could afford it if he spends over half his starting resources -- I don't believe the +6 grimoire will be standard fair for many starting characters. Granted, my starting characters won't be running around trying to cast Body of Shadow so the observation is moot.



I've played with tripling the safe threshold values -- it seems to reduce the risks and allow a little more access to larger spells but it's quite possible I'll end up regretting it, given my lack of experience. I'll see how it works out tomorrow during game.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

Base skill of 15 is basic professional-level for some particular, specialized occupations - high-end RPM magery happens to be one of them; this is similar to regular Magic, as you need skill 15 to be considered a professional caster in the basic GURPS Magic system as well since so many things depend upon hitting that breakpoint. Note that this isn't effective skill - that's base skill level. A character with a base skill of 15 can still cast as if they have skill 25 relatively easily in RPM - get a +2 charm creation kit, +6 grimoire, and +2 from ritual mastery or a power source and they're already hitting 25.

Note that a 350-energy spell is probably the most difficult spell any caster in your campaign is likely to attempt aside from 'Ending the World' type spells. Thus, you don't need all your casters to be able to cast it - only the grandmasters should.

EDIT: Ah, you're running a DF/other low-TL game? Then yeah, you may have issues with the grimoire being out of your price range. I'm playing in a TL8 Monster Hunters game, and my character has Comfortable wealth, so he has $40,000 to spend - $3500 for a +6 Grimoire is very doable. If you are starting with characters at 250 CP, then you'll probably have lower skill, too (MH starts at 400 points) - but that just means you need that +2 charm kit (which you'll want to buy no matter how much it costs), +2 from Ritual Mastery, a further +1 from Symbol Drawing or Ritual Magic (or +2 from both), and a final +4 from a place of power.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

I can see where you are coming from and it makes sense, but I kind of want something like Body of Shadow (duration 10 minutes) to be in the reach of more than just the grandmasters. Part of the problem is my group comes from that other game, so they (and me to some extent) have quite a bit of adapting when it comes to the magic systems, especially.

So far, tripling the safe threshold table seems to be make things a little more attainable (but risky), and keep things in reach. The grimoires could work, but we're playing more action-sorcerer types than the bookish carry around the grimoire wizards so I'll need to find a way to fluff-flavor the grimoires into something different.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

Effective skill is not base skill.

To cast a high cost RPM spell, you will want
-trappings and components to reduce the cost.
-a place of power.
-a grimoire.
-a charm kit
-ritual mastery
...
And make sure luck is up.
A suitable higher purpose would also make sense to have for someone attempting a ritual costing 350...
This is not something any random magic user routinely cast on a whim...

A base skill 15 caster can probably raise his effective skill to 23-25 and reduce the ritual cost by 10% or more with suitable preparation. The odd of success are much better then, if not yet pleasant.
A 18 base skill master with a high-end grimoire, higher purpose, access to a strong place of power, full ceremonial regalia and rare components,an acolyte or two and a couple level of luck can approach the ritual with serenity, of course.

Celjabba

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

If I used effective skill instead of base skill somewhere, it was an accident and I apologize. I do understand the difference between the two.

I understand the mechanics and what is required to successfully cast a 350 point spell is. I guess the major disconnect for me in this situation is that I want to have a world where a spell like Body of Shadow could be cast by someone other than a fully decked out master with all the trappings. He clearly won't be casting it willy nilly do to the sheer amount of time it takes to channel that much energy on the fly, but certainly as one of his allotted number of charms prepared with some work at home, Body of Shadow shouldn't be so powerful that it could "melt his brain" trying?

The point is, I really like what I see with RPM, but I thought it wouldn't be quite so rigid. It looks like, to really perform many of the spells, you need to have your effective skill at 25+, and this is for spells that I'm used to seeing accessible to more mid-skill casters in other systems. I don't want to use those systems (I love GURPS's flexibility and customization. I will never use another system) - I believe that RPM is strong enough that it will do what i want with just tweaking a number somewhere.

On the surface, the energy cost for the same spell in GURPS Magic isn't as back breaking. It would leave him drained, yes (10 Energy for 1 minute, 5 to maintain) but it is possible, I think.

I feel RPM is flexible enough it can allow for magic more accessible than only the most trained grandmasters?

Edit: I sure sound complainy and critical in this post, and I certainly don't want to be. GURPS is great. RPM is awesome. I really want to find a way to make it work for my needs.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

One thing you may want to take a look at is where the divide between Lesser and Greater effects is within your campaign world. If it's a setting similar to D&D, then perhaps even obvious spells like Fireball, Invisibility and Flight only require Lesser Effects (reserving Greater for Planar spells, Resurrection, Wish, etc). Or you could leave Greater Effect definitions as they are but reduce their multipliers (for example, x1.5 for 1, x2 for 2, x3 for 3, etc). This may be a major departure from the RAW, but as long as you're consistent in implementation it shouldn't be too gamebreaking. Remember that the NPCs will likewise have access to these spells - even non-casters can use Charms and Wards.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

The multiplier tweaks might work, I'll have to crunch the numbers -- I do like the idea of just tweaking the spell costs as to messing with the Safe Threshold numbers. I had considered not using the multipliers at all and imposing a penalty to successfully casting the spells instead - but I worried that some spells would get a lot cheaper than I intended.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

I wouldn't recommend altering the safe threshold table any. However, if you want to triple the effectiveness of a given level, you can mostly do so by redefining what a 'Greater Effect' is or how it impacts energy costs. Maybe Greater Effects don't alter energy costs at all - they just make the ritual more dangerous in some way, such as making it so any failure is treated as a critical failure (any quirk is a botch) unless you take a penalty to the skill roll.

Body of Shadow is so expensive because it has 2 Greater Effects in it, making it cost 5 times as much as normal - by altering the Greater Effect definition, you can make it a measly 70 energy.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

As others have pointed out, a effective skill of 15 is...kind of low. A serious charm creator probably has a high-end Workspace Kit, maybe a place of power, grimoires for commonly created spells, and an apprentice or two that can help. Depending on your campaign setting, you may want to decide what is and isn't a Greater effect to offset the cost of some rituals (as has been previously suggested); let me also suggest you take Pyramid #3/66: The Laws of Magic for toying around with RPM in general.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

13 is about right for a Professional Skill, but by Professional Skill we're talking about the sort of skill that you use to make job rolls or that NPCs have for whatever services they provide. Note that the skill level calculated includes the +4 for unrushed, unthreatened actions

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

You never get a time bonus for casting magic. Magic is a dangerous business, you're better off playing with your dad's chainsaw instead.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

Right. That's one of the major reasons why 15 is the base 'professional skill' level for a mage - they don't get positive TDMs for 'unrushed, unthreatened' use.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

Again, I think the OP is overlooking the bonuses you can acquire for grimoires, places of power, workspace kits, and so on.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

Question that occurs to me:

Would a charm creator need separate grimoires for the "cast" and the "charm/conditional" versions of a ritual?

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

No, not overlooking them. But am observing that needing to be kitted out to the gills to safely attempt Body of Shadows and other spells I consider more mid-ranged isn't proving to be as compatible with my goals as I would like. I can fluff out grimoires to be something other than tomes and workplace kits is a little to academic sounding for the type of sorcery I am trying to force RPM to be, methinks.

The suggestion proving to be most useful so far is to revisit the Lesser/Greater effects and be a little more friendly on what is a Lesser spell and instead of using cost multipliers I'm going to impose penalties to the casting rolls instead. This will make the channeling of energy for larger spells a little friendlier while making it more likely that casters attempting spells beyond their ability will fail the casting portion.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

Negative. The added Lesser Control Magic effect to create a charm is the equivalent of saran wrap, but for spells. It keeps it fresh and portable. That said, a grimoire that can only be used to create charms might be worth half as much just like casters can purchase formularies for potions (see p. 29 of GURPS Thaumatology: Ritual Path Magic)

That's what I did when I wanted certain spells to be commonplace and others not to be. Just don't increase the cost of spells willy-nilly or require extra spell effects for a single effect - otherwise your players will get grumpy.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

Again, Body of Shadows isn't mid-ranged: it's the most expensive ritual that's been published! 'The most expensive option' is in no way a 'mid-range' option.

If you feel that Body of Shadows should be cheaper because you don't see it being worth as much as a ritual that can unavoidably disintegrate someone or curse an entire kingdom or whatever, then you should probably alter the assumptions going into the ritual rather than try and make mid-range casters able to do anything that a 350-point ritual can do.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

That's another really good point and a important one. For 348 energy you can get a spell that does 15d-1 corrosion damage (for a internal damaging spell) or one that does 44d+1 corrosion damage (for a external one). That is a LOT of damage, almost enough to wipe out a normal HP 10 person for the internal damage and more than enough to take out a car for a external one. For the same amount you could call a horde of undead to do your will or give your self DR 68 for a hour, or any other number of really crazy, amazing things. A "mid-range" spell is about 100 or so energy. It's tough to pull off, but possible and allows you to do some amazing things. I say this as a GM and a game designer with more experience using RPM than just about anyone else who frequents these boards. I got to playtest MH and thus got a look at RPM before it was ever released, that was in 2010. I've used RPM in damn near every setting that has magic and I've spent time playing with it in nearly every way you could think of since then.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

Sorry about this. I started my reply before your edit in post 5 and before Langy and yours following posts and my post ended explaining what didn't need explaining...

In the games where I used RPM, I did what other suggested above : playing with greater/lesser effect to favor/discourage some rituals.

Celjabba.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

Enchanting MIGHT be an exception, but it depends upon the conquences for a failed rolled.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

Nope, it's not unless the GM house rules it otherwise.

Now, there is a optional rule that could be used if the GM is willing: the Speedy Enchantment perk from GURPS Thaumatology: Magical Styles, which gives access to the Time and Reliability (GURPS Thaumatology, pp. 108-109). It might be balanced as a perk depending on what your campaign is. In my current campaign I charged a 10-point Unusual Background to even enchant anything in the first place, though those that can use the rules for the Speedy Enchantment perk.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

I was actually talking about the bonus for working under unstressfull conditions, I don't understand why you brought the time spent rules into things

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

Presumably because it's a clear example of a bonus for "unrushed" use. Considering the dangers inherent to RPM casting, I would be hesitant to give any "unstressful" bonus.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

Because they're related, and because magic is never going to be a "easy" or "mundane" task. I figured I'd knock out both subjects in one post. Again, you're manipulating dangerous energies to perform supernatural feats - nothing about that says it's not stressful. You screw up and bad things (literally) happen. Of course, in your games you can Rule Zero it and say otherwise and that's fantastic! Wonderful, tell us how it plays out. :-) But normally? No.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

I see the main problem of OP here not in the pricing or skill in general but in either underestimating of spell effect or its overpricing. I'm inclined to second since i don't see how this spell can be abused, especially in common magic campaign.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

Pretty close to this. I see I have miscommunicated and made a lot of people think that I want mid-ranged casters to be capable of casting 350 energy cost spells. That is not the case. It is an issue with the cost of certain spells, such as Body of Shadow, that I am having the issue with and that I feel this spell is one that is more expensive than it need be for a common magic campaign.

Again, I am not saying "Mid range casters" should be able to cast 350 point energy spells - I am saying that Body of Shadow feels like a spell I want mid-ranged casters to be able to cast. There is a subtle difference.

Dropping the multiplier from costs and making it a penalty to the skill roll seems to be working for me pretty well during the re-pricing. I'm sure if there are any unpleasant surprises in doing this, i'll find out when i run this afternoon.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

Ehh, it seems like penalty to skill makes it harder to cast than the multiplier does. How many Greater effects are actually in Body of Shadow, anyway? Ruling that one or two are only Lesser in-setting should reduce the cost to something somebody with a base skill of 15 can do, provided they buy a Grimoire from the local magic shop.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

But a important one. It's a want vs. a need.

I've done this before and will be interested in your play report to see if you had the same experience I did. Keep us posted please.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

I'm not sure. It just feels like a +4 penalty to casting isn't as significant as the safe threshold penalty for a 350 point spell.

Campaign is on the cusp of the dawning of the age of wizardry. There aren't local magic shops from which people can purchase grimoires. Talahsee (kind of a collective hive-mind society of elves greatly in tune with the world) have shown up and have started teaching men about how to weave magic. Humans, in return, will repay the poor Talahsee with the contagion of individuality, leaving their innocent society in shambles eventually.

So right now, definitely a time of high magic and experimentation. Would-be NPC mages will be screwing up and melting their brains or causing upheaval (adventure plot hooks for the party to resolve) as the two societies come to terms with contact with each other, etc.

There isn't much in the way of magic items, grimoires, and an established tradition of wizardry (yet). The players are playing characters present at this important point in the campaign world's history (It's an old established campaign world from back in my days of 2nd Edition D&D and those old Skills and Powers books).

The TL is at the end of TL2, with just a few TL3 things starting to show up.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

You can always allow somebody who created a ritual to write a grimoire, or, at least a scroll on it. You can even make creating new rituals more risky by ruling that ALL effects in an improvised ritual are Greater until it succeeds. If one of the PCs comes up with something on their own, let them write the grimoire/scroll. They should still be picky about who they share with, though...

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

I generally don't follow RPM threads all too often - and I apologize if someone else has mentioned this idea. However, this thread sort of touches upon something I've observed with GURPS 4e. In the past, players have commented upon the fact that certain things in GURPS were too cheap for effects they had on play. I've noted however, the reverse is now also true in that certain things are too costly (in the eyes of my players) for the effects granted by any given advantage. Perfect case in point was the "turn undead" capability from the old D&D campaigns (by old - I'm talking about the little white box/brown books version on up through at least AD&D). When my wife saw just how much the "advantage" cost for the campaign in question, she said "No" in about three seconds after my explanation of the advantage. Likewise, if certain spells are TOO costly in energy, then perhaps what is needed is a bit of "fine tuning". Currently, based upon a quick read of GURPS THAUMATOLOGY RITUAL PATH MAGIC, it appears that the energy cost multiplier for spells could be written as:

1 + GEP*2 where GEP is Greater Effects Present.

So, why not tweak the formula to something like this:

1 + MEP*1 + GEP*2 where MEP is Moderate Effects Present, GEP is Greater Effects Present, and then create a new category of effects where the Moderate Effect is midway between a Greater Effect and Lesser Effect?

This way, the GM can redefine what precisely is a Moderate Effect as they see fit for their campaign, while retaining the ability to say that the Moderate Effect is better than Lesser Effect, but that the Greater Effect makes things even more dangerous or more costly energy wise or what have you.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

Not sure what you are saying here. Is it a +4 to skill or effective skill? The first can be pretty significant.

Neat.

You know what I'd do? I'd make things random. Maybe something like before you roll to cast, make a Thuamatology check at a penalty equal to the base energy cost / 10. Success means the spell works exactly like it's supposed to for the campaign. Success with a margin of the penalty or greater means you can knock off one Greater effect for that casting only (e.g., if you have to roll Thaumatology-2 for a spell, succeeding by two means you can ignore one Greater effect for that spell's casting). Failure means you treat it as if it had a extra Greater effect. Critical failure has it's usual effects, but treat the total energy of the spell as if it had two Greater effects more than normal. Critical success works as a success but also allows you to instantly purchase the Shortcut to Power or Secret Spell perk for that ritual. This way, characters are going to want to buy more Thaumatology than just their Path skill level.

So make "naturally occuring" grimoires possible. In my article The Old Ways in Pyramid #3/56: Prehistory I talk about TL0 "grimoires" which can be anything from a crystal to a wooden branch. Maybe such grimoires "harmonize" with a particular spell(s).

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

Sounds like Materia from FF7. To borrow an element from FF6 as well, you could have spirits be the holders of ancient knowledge. They may infuse objects with these arcane secrets, or perhaps the spirits themselves can be bound to an object. The latter could be pretty interesting... a wizard may have to negotiate with his grimoire before casting a spell!

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

So, "Body of Shadow" specifically is a spell you want to make easier to cast? Then do so -- if you're the GM, just declare that it uses Lesser Effects rather than Greater Ones. That'll make it significantly cheaper.

Remember, the divide between Lesser and Greater is always up to the GM and should be tweaked to fit the setting.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

I agree with OP about that spell being ridiculously overpriced. Why is turning into a shadow for a very short time anywhere near the value of anything else of 350 energy?
You could raise the dead with that.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

Well I understand the mechanical reasons why Shadow Form is a 50 point CP power. The really high cost in RPM is because of the multipliers. As has been pointed out here by lots of kind folk, there is multiple ways a spell could be built. Even just making one of the two paths Lesser (perhaps in one world it's a Greater Transform Matter to break the body down, but maybe only a Lesser Transform Energy to make it shadow and it goes from 350 CP to 210 CP. 210 sounds high, but I'd definately agree its a lot more approachable than 350 CP.

If both were a Lesser Effect, it's now hovering at only 70CP.

All the advice I've gotten so far has been really awesome.

It's definitely heading there. The Talahsee that the town is interacting with are incredibly powerful at magic. They can shape, weave, and create god-level magic on the fly - they don't worry about needing to pulling in and storing ambient energy at all. The humans they attempt to teach are finding they simply can't work magic that way, being slower at it (channeling in multiple minutes only small amounts of energy at a time, being restricted to a bunch of Path Skills, etc). One of the NPC students, a talented mage by the name of Midarne has been adapting a magical short-hand of symbols to represent concepts and practices that turn up a lot. He believes that it is possible for humans to prepare magic ahead of time (charms, basically fluffed differently I think) and record combinations of magic down in like a recipe (grimoires are where I planned on going with this).

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

I'd knock off -0.2 CF if you have to make a Reaction Roll to access the power of the grimoire in this case.

Because that's how the base system works. There are always going to be edge cases and outliers no matter what system you use. When such a instance causes a bad taste in your mouth, as a GM just rework it a little as has been suggested many times in this thread.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

Off Topic a bit, but RPM related:

A spell that surrounds the caster in a 2 yard bubble of replenishing air for a duration of time. Would you build that with Altered Traits (Doesn't Breathe) [20] or is it Sealed [15] and the replenishing air is just a benefit of the Create effect?

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

Sealed would not let you breathe any longer, so go with the former.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

Sounds like it's just Create Air + Control Air, no altered traits at all.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

Yeah, I did not work out the math to see what would be better. Just answered the question. Might be Greater Control, depending on the stress the bubble can handle.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

It's only Greater if it can handle going underwater or into a vacuum. Lesser should be able to handle such things as wind.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

Langy hit on the head. You just need the effects plus Subject Weight and Duration, of course.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

But... that... requires.... thouuuuuuuuught. - whine

Seriously, yeah lesser/greater split is where to make all the pre-spell design changes. Extra fiddly might be coming up with a medium effect between the two for edge cases.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

Tried it. It slows down game play to a crawl as the GM now needs to determine if the spell is small, medium, or large. It just doesn't work. Seriously, if you think a spell is too expensive and it has Greater effects...remove the Greater effects and be done with it. It needs no extra fiddling other than that.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

I'll take your word for it as I haven't had much chance to play with the system in action.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

I'm a pretty competent GM and can think on my feet really quick, but having that 3rd choice just made things really annoying.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

Ya know, another way to do Body of Shadow - and I don't necessarily recommend this - is to use the disadvantage form of Shadow Form rather than the advantage one.

Shadow Form can be either a 50-point advantage or a -20-point disadvantage. The disadvantage version is different in that the user has no control over it and thus they're stuck in the shadow form until the duration ends - and thus can't really do much interaction with the world. That would shift the spell from 350 points to 120 points, even leaving it as two Greater effects.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

I considered this when creating the spell, but I liked having it as advantage more. Still - this remains entirely workable. You could even call it "Greater" and "Lesser" Shadow Form if you really wanted.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

This is a good example of one big issue I have with RPM. A spell that requires Altered Traits is almost always several times as expensive as those that don't. Creating a bubble of air around a character lets them breath underwater quite cheaply (and can easily extend to others with Area Effect) while giving them gills is far more expensive. It's also usually cheaper to use Bestows a Bonus than to grant an advantage with the equivalent benefit. I think this is part of why spells like Body of Shadow seem so disproportionately expensive.

How gamebreaking would it be to reduce the energy cost of Altered Trait effects, down to maybe 1/2 or 1/3?

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

Yeah, Altered Traits (Advantage) is probably the most expensive modifier in RPM. I'm not sure how to fix that.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

I've tried 3 points for both advantages or disadvantages (use the absolute value of the trait) - but it didn't work well. I've mucked with it in a few other ways, but it always screws things up pretty badly.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

Also note that transformations between Paths are inherently pricy: 16 energy for the base Effects alone, before bringing anything else into the mix. If it’s a Greater Transform, that’s good for a ×5 multiplier right there, for a minimum cost of 80 energy. On top of that, Transforms usually involve bestowing or removing a meta-trait, which ups the cost further.

Some possible house rules to bring the cost down, some of which can be used in concert:

• No matter what the Transformation is, never count more than one of the pair of Effects as a Greater Effect. This could drop the aforementioned 80 points to 48 points.
• Make Transformations a special case: they always count as a single Effect; but it costs an extra (guessing) 2 energy if that single Effect uses two Paths. So a “Transform Body to Energy” Effect would cost 10 energy instead of 8. Instead of 80 points base for a Greater Transform, it would only be 30 points.
• Or just have it count as a single Effect, with no price inflation; if you’re highly skilled with both Body and Energy, transforming between them is no harder than converting light into sound or a man into a pig. The 80-point Greater Transform would only be 24 points.

• Sometimes, Altered Traits is pricy because the Advantages involved are arguably overpriced. I personally don’t consider Insubstantiality to be worth its price, and generally tweak it so that it costs half as much. If you’ve got some sort of energy form, this could reduce your energy cost significantly.
• Consider dropping the cost of Altered Traits to 1 energy per point, regardless of whether it’s an Advantage or a Disadvantage that you’re granting; all that matters is the magnitude of price or value. The rationale is that you can often get a similar result without altering any traits at all; that is, much of the energy cost for the altered trait is already incorporated into the basic cost of the Effect.
• Or be extremely conservative about using Altered Traits, reserving it for cases where you can’t justify the underlying Effect doing what you want.
• Never itemize the individual traits granted; just come up with a single lump-sum total of all traits granted, both positive and negative, and base the Altered Traits energy cost on that. So if the Advantages and Disadvantages being added balance out, the total cost of Altered Traits is zero. This only helps if there’s a mixture of advantages and disadvantages involved. (This also may not be a house rule so much as a clarification.)

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

On your last point. That would be true if the Altered Trait was an Altered Form so seems fair. But to reduce munchkinism and too cheap disads I would think use the absolute value of the difference between advantages and disadvantages would be better.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

Dataweaver: Altered Traits costs 1 energy per point already for advantages, and 1 energy per 5 points for disadvantages.

Re: [RPM] High Energy Cost spells (Example Body of Shadow)
 

While there certainly can be metaphysical reasons why transforming a man (living mammal) into a pig (living mammal) is easier than transforming a man into a "living shadow," regardless of the level of skill in the relevant Paths, I typically agree with this. The way I handle it is, if a single effect clearly should use two Paths, you simply do it as a single Spell Effect, using the lower of the two Path skills involved. For example, my Feeding Bolt is a single Greater Transform Body/Undead, because the bolt harming the target and healing the caster is a single effect, and Undead is really only included due to the specific metaphysics of my setting (notably, the spell by Ghostdancer that I more-or-less copied from was simply a Greater Transform Body effect). If there are two separate effects that are closely related, and both are arguably Greater, I'll let them get by as one Greater and one Lesser - the Positive/Negative Energy Bolt/Blast/Blade rituals from that same post are examples of this.