GURPS M:tA
 

Hey, there. I don't get on the forums as often as many, or even as often as I would like (heck, it has been sometimes literally a year or more between posts for me). But, I was here to check up on the status of some Ogre countersheets and figured, as long as I'm here…

As we all know, back in the days when relations between gaming companies was all flowers and light, SJG and White Wolf managed to come to an agreement whereby several WW games would be converted into GURPS (3E) terms. Before that all fell apart, we did manage to get three solid offerings.

Of these, the one that interested me most was the conversion of Mage: The Ascension. It provided us with an entirely new system of magic, which has since had the identification numbers filed off and been made generic in GURPS Thaumatology, as "Realms and Power" Syntactic Magic.

The thing is, the problem that I've always had with M:tA is that the magic for all of the different Traditions was pretty much exactly the same. Only the tools used to direct the magic were different, from a mechanical standpoint. One was supposed to rely on the fluff descriptions to make the different Traditions, well, different.

Now, it seems to me that one could do things differently in GURPS. Rather than importing the generic magic system of the WW game, how about modeling the fluff using GURPS rules more directly. For example, one could give the Adepts of Hermes the standard GURPS Magic system. When I originally thought of doing this (in passing, mind), the then-current edition of GURPS Magic was the Second. In the back of that book, there was a system of Improvisational Magic based on verb-noun combinations. While that system still exists (again, in Thaumatology), it has been changed to rely directly on buying skill in each verb or noun as a skill. In the original, one would instead tally up the spells that the character knew in each college, counting 0, 1, 1 1/2, or 2 points per each, depending on the skill level, up to a maximum of either IQ+Magery or 20, whichever was less. So, my thinking was that Hermetic mages would start off buying "rote" spells, and then gain proficiency in improvising as they learned more about the college.

Most of the other Traditions are similarly easy to model. The Akashic Brotherhood would have Trained by a Master (and related ads), along with chi-based Cinematic Skills and perhaps be allowed to purchase chi-based Powers. The Celestial Chorus now has the option of buying Divine Favor. The Dreamspeakers might work with Path/Book Magic and Spirits. The Hollow Ones (and all Orphans, really) would buy Psionic Powers. The Sons of Ether would be based around Gadgeteering and TLX+N skills (I'll talk about that more in a minute). The Verbena might use the Tree Magic reorganization of the basic GURPS Magic system, perhaps with the addition of Improvisational Magic on the Hermetic model. The Virtual Adepts might work entirely based on the Machine Telepathy Power.

About the Sons of Ether, I think that the cost of a gadget is an important balancing element, so I would probably allow Quick Gadgeteering, but with the provision that any gadget made in that way would break down and stop working after a short time (basically, at the GM's discretion, but probably no longer than the current session). I'd also specify that the only characters who could buy TLX+N skills (say, the modern Steampunk TL5+3 or Dieselpunk TL6+2, or whatever) would be those with the Gadgeteering advantage at either level (or perhaps with a 10-point Unusual Background).

You'll notice that I haven't talked about the Technocracy (I'd probably just give them access to higher TL items) or two of the Traditions. That's because I just don't understand either the Cult of Ecstasy or the Euthanatos very well. I never did read their Tradition splatbooks, and they aren't well described in the original rules. Can anyone shed any light on those? Or, if you just have any comments on the idea in general, or better ways to do these or the Technocracy, feel free to chime in.

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

There are some problems with using so many magic systems in one game, including: GM workload; difficulties of resolving their interactions, and the fact that they aren't balanced against each other for point cost vs. effectiveness. The latter is likely to lead to some players feeling they made the wrong choices and having their interest in the game impaired.

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

That is, of course, a good point. I wonder, though, if the magic systems are not well-balanced against each other, how can they be well-balanced against the other systems in the game? It seems to me that balancing the costs of, say, the standard GURPS Magic system against the costs of learning Martial Arts, and then balancing the costs of Psionic Powers in the same way would lead to a relative balance between GURPS Magic and Psionic Powers.

Also, there is the added note that, so long as there is ambiguity in the system, then there is also the potential for a particular player to learn how best to use a particular system in a way that balances it against the other players and GM. That is, it seems to me that "balance" happens more from learning to use the system creatively and discovering its particular niche, if you will, and this is more important than precisely balancing the mechanical numbers. But this is all "old school" vs. "new school" theorizing, and probably not very relevant here.

Edited to add: The point about GM workload is a strong one. That would require more thought, but presuming that the GM were willing to take it on…

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

If a GM went to the effort to create such a rich magical campaign world, I as a player would be more than willing to adapt during the campaign if my character turned out to be one that was overly effective. If the GM is upfront early that there may need to be some major tweaking, I like to think most players would be flexible.

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

In simplistic terms, the Cult of Ecstasy is your Bards: sex, drugs, and rock and roll is how they do their magic. In similarly simplistic terms, the Euthanatoi are necromancers, with a specialty in reading peoples’ fates so that they can tell when a person is beyond redemption and deserving of being put to death.

Conceptually though, this notion misses the whole point of Mage, which is that everyone is ultimately doing variations of the same thing. For instance, the Hollow Ones aren’t psychics; they’re dabblers — magical Jacks of all Trades and masters of none. Meanwhile, each of the Traditions has mastered one flavor of magic. To capture that aspect of things, you really should have a common core system shared by all of the Traditions — although the details of how that common core is implemented can and should vary from Tradition to Tradition.

In that regard, I’d use a combination of Realm Magic, Magical Styles, and GURPS Powers to represent individual Traditions. For instance:

• The Order of Hermes would have Magery as a Power Talent, “Magical” as its Power Modifier, and various Realms as its Power Abilities. It would have Thaumatology as a core skill which would serve as a cap for the various Realm Skills. Style Familiarity with Hermetic Magic (which features the Forces Realm) would provide access to a selection of Style Perks that further modify how their magic works.
• By contrast, the Celestial Chorus would have Power Investiture as a Power Talent, “Divine” as its Power Modifier, and various Realms as its Power Abilities. It would have Theology as a core skill that serves as a cap for the various Realm Skills. Style Familiarity with Theurgy (which features the Prime Realm) would provide access to a selection of Style Perks that further modify how their magic works.
• Then you have the Dreamspeakers, who have a “Sensitivity” Power Talent, “Spirit” as its Power Modifier, and various Realms as its Power Abilities. They would have Ritual Magic serving as a cap on their Realm Skills. Style Familiarity with Animism (which features the Spirit Realm) would provide access to a selection of Style Perks that further modify how their magic works.
• The Etherites would have a “Genius” Power Talent, a “Super-Science” Power Modifier, Realms as its Power Abilities, and Weird Science as the cap on its Realm Skills. Style Familiarity with Ether Science (which features the Matter Realm) would provide access to a selection of Style Perks that further modify how their Science works.
• The Akashic Brotherhood would have a “Dharma” Power Talent, a “Chi” Power Modifier, Realms as its Power Abilities, and Auto-Hypnosis as the cap on its Realm skills. Style Familiarity with Ascetic Magic (which features the Mind Realm) would provide access to a selection of Style Perks that further modify how their magic works.
• The Verbena would have a “Sponteneity” Power Talent, a “Nature” Power Modifier, Realms as its Power Abilities, and Herb Lore as the cap on its Realm Skills. Style Familiarity with Witchcraft (which features the Life Realm) would provide access to a selection of Style Perks that further modify how their magic works.
• The Virtual Adepts would have an “Arete” Power Talent, an “Augmented Reality” Power Modifier, Realms as its Power Abilities, and Computer Hacking as the cap on its Realm Skills. Style Familiarity with Reality Hacking (which features the Correspondence Realm) would provide access to a selection of Style Perks that further modify how their magic works.

And so on. Everyone uses the same core system (i.e., Realm Magic); but each tweaks how that system works through the selection of Power Talent, Power Modifier, core skill, primary and supplemental skills, Style Perks, etc. (The Hollow Ones would differ from the rest in that they’d lack much of the above: no Power Talent, no Power Modifier, no core skill, no Style Perks; Realms would be purchased “raw”, and Realm Skills would be capped by a 10/level Unusual Background Advantage.)

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

OK, that's an interesting view of it. My own understanding is that each Tradition has a vision of how the world "should" work, and they are working to ensure that their own version, as it were, of reality is the one that is accepted by the world at large. Now, being the underdogs, the various Traditions have banded together against the Technocrats in a sometimes uneasy alliance, judging by the sections which list each Tradition's opinions of the other Traditions.

That is to say, there isn't any particular underlying unified reality, but instead there are the individual realities brought along by each Tradition, and Ascension is the process of elevating humanity through the particular apocalyptic (in the original sense) vision of the Tradition. That fragmented view of competing realities seems to be borne out by the existence of the Technocracy, actually, and its near-monopolistic hold on consensus reality.

Which reminds me, I would need to figure out some way of handling the backlash of consensus reality for those Traditions which don't already have that built in to their magic systems. Hm.

Anyway, yes, those are the overviews of the CoX and Euthanatos which one can derive from the core rules. Those don't say much of anything about how their magic actually works, though, in a way that would allow those fluff descriptions to be modeled in GURPS.

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

More or less true, save for one thing: over the centuries of their “uneasy alliance”, the Traditions discovered that their different paradigms were remarkably compatible with each other, to the point that once they accepted this truth, cooperative works of magic by memebers of wildly different Traditions became possible, even routine: e.g., an Etherite and a Verbena can work together to craft an effect. Eventually, someone (among the Order of Hermes, I believe) discovered why this was so: for all their differences, every Tradition had at its heart the same core truth — that magic is the manifestation of an innate human capacity to shape reality. It’s so innate to the human condition that even Sleepers do it (albeit subconsciously, and only when large numbers of Sleepers’ efforts align with each other; thus, the Consensus and Consensual Reality).

Each Tradition has its own idea about what this core truth means (the Hermetics describe it as an act of Will; the Choristers see it as a matter of Belief; technomancers see Enlightenment as the key ingredient; and so on — I attempted to model that by patterning each Tradition’s “Power Talent” after what innate human quality that Tradition thinks is at the heart of magic, and thus which one it cultivates); but they all agree that magic is the fundamental human capacity to change the world.

In fact, the central defining feature of the Traditions is their efforts to promote the notion that their diverse views of reality don’t fundamentally conflict, and that reality should be viewed as a synergy of diverse beliefs rather than as a clash of competing realities. This is in direct contrast to the views of the Technocracy and the Disparates, both of whom view the different takes on reality as being fundamentally at odds with each other.

The Technocracy long ago decided that the correct response to this core truth is to promote the dominance of a single paradigm that provides stability for everyone by driving all competing views into extinction, and in that it has largely been successful in its efforts. By contrast, the Disparates are primarily holdovers from before the Ascension War began and seek in vain to return the world to the way it used to be. Their perspective about the conflicting nature of paradigms left them incapable of the cooperation that the Traditions have fostered; and combined with the fact that none of them is large enough to rival the Technocracy, the result is that they’re slowly dying out.

Actually, the process of Ascension is pretty much the opposite of that: while a starting Traditionist has been told the the common core truth about the nature of reality, it’s initially a “head knowledge” thing: it takes a while for them to truly understand it rather than merely paying lip service to it, and it takes even longer to really grasp its implications. That process of coming to terms with the common truth of the Traditions and the ultimate irrelevance of any one Tradition’s apocalyptic vision is what Ascension is all about.

Yeah; that’s an example of the danger of not starting from a common system for all of the magic styles: you end up reinventing the wheel repeatedly, assuming that you even remember that the wheel needs to be there.

When I get home, I’ll see if I can find my copies of the Tradition Books; I just moved, and most of my stuff is still packed up. But I don’t see why you couldn’t, for example, use the Bardic Arts (Thaumatology page 204) to model the CoX; it’s as accurate a representation of them as using Machine Telepathy to model the Virtual Adepts. Mind you, neither is a terribly accurate portrayal of the respective Traditions’ views on magic; but that’s true to some extent for most of your proposed models.

For instance, Chinese Elemental Powers is a closer match to the Akashic Brotherhood than your suggestion of Trained By a Master and Cinematic Skills; but I still wouldn’t use it for the Akashic Brotherhood. I might use it for the Wu Lung, a Disparate faction that’s based on Chinese mysticism: using a magic system for them that’s largely incompatible with everyone else’s magic systems would certainly capture their Disparate nature.

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

I suppose that's what I get for not really following the oWoD closely. There's a lot that they worked into their background that I wouldn't have, and had no idea that they had. I suppose, then, that what I'm really asking about is MWoD, which operates from the assumptions that I probably haven't made clear because I didn't even know that they needed to be.

So, the argument that the people writing MtA were making is that there is a core One True Reality that is singular, but everyone gets it wrong until they have the Secret Knowledge. How disappointing. I prefer the "there is no True Reality other than what you experience" interpretation, where different experience sets interface with each other in interesting and chaotic ways.

I could see that, perhaps, but it leaves out the "sex" and "drugs" parts of the CoX in favor of just the "rock 'n' roll". (Heck, throw in the Enthrallment skills, and you've got something going!) Anyway, I think that I'm starting to get a handle on how to handle the CoX, at least.

The thing is, we are presented, in the basic rule book, with a view of the Traditions that is pretty straightforward (excepting the CoX and Euthanatos): Akashics are Shaolin Monks, Celestials are dedicated to a vision of God, Dreamweavers are Shamans, Etherites are Mad Scientists in the Tesla or Steampunk (though the term wasn't yet current, the idea was) mold, etc. The individual Tradition splatbooks may have altered that basic, straightforward approach, but I don't know that, in most cases, it's really needed or warranted.

I could probably see using Chinese Elemental Powers (though I don't actually have that as yet), and I probably would. It seems to me as though it should be able to model a version of Onmyodo, too, since that system of Japanese magic developed out of the Chinese system, so it wouldn't be limited to just Chinese Mages. But, even without that, I think that Chi Powers, as well as TbaM and Cinematic Skills, would do pretty well toward modeling the Brotherhood.

I should also add that you are using terminology that is unknown to me. Keep in mind that I left WW games behind before they ran out the oWoD clock, so a lot of the later concepts (Disparate?) are unknown to me. I'm supposing that Disparates are factions that are minorities in the Reality game, like the Traditions, but which have not got the alliance thing of the Traditions down?

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

“MWoD”?

Umm, no; that’s the nWoD’s Mage: the Awakening.

“There is no True Reality other than what you experience” is a declaration of there being “One True Reality” — namely, the One True Reality is that reality is subjective. This has the drawback that it declares that Technocrats aren’t just morally wrong, but also objectively delusional about the true nature of reality. Granted, the “subjective reality” line is the most common theory voiced by the Traditions; but it’s exactly that: a theory. The underlying truth that I referred to isn’t so much that there’s a singular One True Reality as it is that every form of magic featured in Mage: the Ascension shares the common feature that magic is based on some sort of inherently human quality. What that quality is and how it manifests varies by Tradition, so (in theory at least) you still get interesting and chaotic interactions between them. I’ll agree that Mage: the Ascension didn’t go as far as it could have in featuring the practical distinctions among the Traditions, which is why my proposal goes further; but I’d be leery about going as far as to give each one a wholly distinct and largely incompatible magic system of its own.

If you’re looking for a setting that features a large number of fundamentally different magic systems coexisting, you don’t need Mage: the Ascension to do so. Eden Studio’s Witchcraft and Conspiracy X both feature multiple systems of supernatural powers; Deadlands features at least four such systems (gambler card magic, preachers wielding holy power, Native American shamans, and literally mad scientists).

Well, I did say that it’s not a particularly good fit. But it’s as good a fit as your approach to the VAs; and if you’re comfortable with grossly oversimplifying the VAs as Machine Telepaths, then you shouldn’t have a problem with similarly grossly oversimplifying Cultists of Ecstasy as bards.

Not just individual splatbooks; later editions of the game expand the scope of each Tradition so that it’s less of a rigid stereotype. For instance: even in the second edition, Etherites are no longer just mad scientists in the Tesla or Steampunk mold: they’re the guys responsible for Quantum Mechanics; and it’s entirely possible and appropriate to play an Etherite who’s Science is straight out of bleeding edge sci-fi.

Basically, every Tradition had its philosophical roots deepened as of the second edition; and while every Tradition has room for the stereotype that the first edition of the game pushed, none is restricted to it. My single biggest issue with your approach is that it narrows the Traditions back down to shallow stereotypes — sometimes very shallow.

“Disparate” isn’t a later concept; it’s a more recent name for what the game originally called Crafts. So yes, that’s exactly it: they’re Ascension War minorities who never forged any alliances, and thus suffered for the lack thereof.

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

"My World of Darkness".

It didn't interest me on a general basis, and that makes me even less interested. But I digress.

That seems fair enough.

One of the things, though, that I've noticed about 4E is that, even though these systems may seem incompatible on the surface, it seems as though the generally smoothed-out mechanics removes much of that incompatibility. That is, whether you are using a gun or a missile spell, it has DMG, Range, 1/2 D, ACC, and so on. Other effects are given similarly according to general conditions in the rules, such as "Agony" or "Euphoria" (p.B428), and so on. That is, the powers interact with elements in the basic rules, rather than directly interacting with each other's idiosyncrasies, for the most part.

All of which are good choices, but my interest here is in MtA.

That brings up another point, though. You say that the VAs are more than just Machine Telepaths. That may be the case, but I don't see much reason to go further, myself. What, specifically, do you think could or should be added?

I don't see how modeling the Etherites (to choose the available example) as Gadgeteers simplifies them overmuch. Just allow those to purchase High TL and pick up higher TL skills, in addition to or as an alternative to TL N+X. Problem solved.

Ah, OK. Thank you.

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

The Euthanatos are not anything like murder addicts, they are the mages of Fate. They have terrible knowledge and the responciblity of that knowledge. They know that if A doesn't die by 2PM all of A's future incarnations will be ruined. A will live a thousand lives of misery and bring disaster to millions. On the other hand, if A dies by torture before 2PM then A lives a hundred joyful lives, achieves full enlightenment, brings joy, hope, and liberty, to billions, and becomes a bodhisatva. This is a horrible burden of responcibility.

The Ecstatics want to liberate everyone now. They just want to be careful about it. They believe that the path of joy and wonder is the road to the liberation of all souls in the universe. They get that they need to be careful, but they want to keep the path to spiritual freedom always availible for as many as possible.

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

So, then, the only thing that really distinguishes the Euthanatos is that they have an unfailingly correct foreknowledge of the right time and circumstance for someone to die? That's actually a pretty good idea and gives me a couple of ways to approach them. They might seem better suited to NPCs, though.

Still trying to get a handle on the CoX, but the idea of sex, drugs, rock 'n' roll, wine, women, and song is a pretty good lead.

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

The premise is all wrong. “Machine Telepathy” assumes that the purpose of VA magic is to manipulate computers; it isn’t. Rather, computers are the tools they use to work their magic. Looking at the various VA subtypes (known as “alts”):

• The Cyberpunks are hardware freaks, and are often riddled with cybernetic implants every bit as much as Iteration X Technocrats are. They deal primarily with Forces effects.
• Cypherpunks are masters of mind magic: think “GURPS Horror: the Madness Dossier”, with a mastery of neuro-linguistics that allows them to use sensory impressions to rewire the brain.
• Chaoticians are VAs who are masters of prediction: in mystical terms, they use digital phenomena as a means of divination — and sometimes they get proactive and set up “feedback loops” that let them alter said digital phenomena in a way that alters the prediction, altering the future and giving rise to what more traditional mages call blessings and curses. Which brings us to:
• The Reality Coders are technomages who create digital simulations of reality, invoke the mystical Law of Similarity to link their simulations to the things being simulated, and then edit the simulation, causing the changes they make to be echoed in the thing being simulated. For instance, an expert in Life magic could use this technique to modify a creature’s genetic code to cause mutations; or an expert in Forces could model a weather system and then edit it to generate (or prevent) a thunderstorm. An expert in Matter could model a lump of coal and then restructure the model to one representing a diamond, or carbon nanotubes. And so on.
• The Nexplorers are the “netrunner” VAs who operate in the Digital Web; they’re the ones who work their magic to manipulate computers. That’s one alt out of five…

Note that these aren’t mutually exclusive categories; any VA could dabble in any of these areas. These are merely the areas that each alt is best known for. So yes, there are VAs for whom something like Machine Telepathy might be appropriate; but I wouldn’t want to reduce the whole Tradition to just that.

That does cover a significant amount of ground, yes. But does it cover, say, Occult Mechanics? Which alternate tech lets an Etherite apply the Heterodyne Corollary to a Hermetic’s magical tools, as in the linked example? At what TL do Fortean Phenomena diverge? More often than not, Ether Science isn’t Ultra-Tech, Divergent Tech, or Superscience (i.e., TL9+, TLx+y, or TLn^, respectively); it’s Weird Science, something that GURPS has a skill for but lacks any sort of standardized rules for, because it’s potentially all over the board.


BTW: for any Tradition that you’d consider modeling with GURPS Powers, I would strongly recommend allowing the player to make liberal use of the “Using Abilities at Default” optional rule: a hallmark of every variety of magic in Mage: the Ascension is the versatility of the mage. Likewise, I’d recommend the Ritual Magic variant on regular magic instead of the buy-every-spell-as-a-separate-skill approach, for much the same reason. And “cinematic skill” types should probably get the Wild Talent Advantage (limited to cinematic skills) to give them some ability to improvise. In short: every magic system that you consider, you should look for whatever rules exist for allowing the magician to improvise.

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

Ether science is TL^, as in that universe all TLs above present day, whatever that may be, is ^. The main difference being that technocratic TLs prefer to be TL 8+X^ rather than other unique variations.

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

There’s some truth to that — though Ether Science is even more “all over the map” than merely “all TLs above the present day”: for instance, there were Etherites into Steampunk before it was a thing. And there’s still the “Occult Mechanics” bit; though admittedly Fantasy-Tech 1 covers some of that.

But I contend that calling Ether Science “TL^” doesn’t buy you anything useful, as it gives you no practical guidelines as to what an Etherite can or can’t do. M:tA, at least, had the Spheres to provide some useful guidelines.

The other issue with using Gadgeteering to represent the Sons of Ether is that it only deals with inventing gadgets; unless you go really lenient with the rules and allow a Gadgeteer to invent a process or a theory, there are still things that Etherites ought to be able to do that Gadgeteer doesn’t cover.

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

Now we seem to be getting somewhere!

I think that you are underestimating the amount of work that can be dumped on the players. Specifically, here, if a player wanting to play an Etherite wants to have some wildly variant tech (and I had forgotten about Weird Science, which should definitely be added into their options), then give them the job and opportunity to write it up, subject to GM approval.

Regarding the VAs, I can see that (remember that I haven't read the splatbooks, so most of that stuff is new to me), and if a player wanted to do that stuff, I'd work with them to figure out ways to cover it. In regard to the point that a VA could study beyond their little sub-"genre", as it were, that brings up the idea that any PC could, potentially, develop multiple "paradigms" and pick up advantages, powers, or skills from more than one Tradition, a potential advantage of using GURPS over the less flexible WW system.

Plus, that cybernetics stuff really looks like the VAs aren't as removed from the Technocrats as they want everyone to believe (which, actually, is probably a thread I'd follow: there is an increasingly large set of former cyberpunks in the real world who, like Jaron Lanier, have come to believe that the computer revolution has been completely subverted to the purposes of Power, though I am oversimplifying the position they express, and they make some good points).

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

Nah; my position has never been “it’s too much work!” I have argued that a lot of the work is unnecessary or misplaced; but I’ve never opposed it on the basis of sheer quantity.

This makes me wonder how thoroughly you read my counterproposal; because I have Weird Science at the heart of the Etherites.

I think it’s also worth pointing out that in the oWoD, the magic of the Awakened isn’t the only game in town. There are other kinds of magic (collectively referred to as “Sorcery” or “Hedge Magic”) that aren’t rooted in the premise that magic is an extension of the mage. Instead, they depend on properties inherent to the world itself (commonly referred to as “mythic threads”); and the Sorcerers who practice these arts do so by binding themselves to these mythic threads and then learning how to go about manipulating them. If I was doing MtA in GURPS 4e, the sorts of things that you’re suggesting are exactly how I’d handle the various Sorceries.

I’d also point out that the various Sorceries overlap in no small part with the various paradigms of the Awakened, to the point that it takes a discerning eye to tell the difference; some have even theorized that the Awakened paradigms created the mythic threads that are at the heart of the Sorceries (though there’s no proof of that, and it may merely be the infamous hubris of the Awakened to make that claim). This is part of what I was going for when I talked about each paradigm getting suitable rules modifications through Style Perks, and was also the reason behind my suggestion that every paradigm be given a “Power Limitation” that captures the shortcomings inherent in that paradigm. To illustrate what I have in mind:

• The Order of Hermes doesn’t practice spell magic as defined in GURPS Magic; but there are sorcerers in the setting who do; and because the Hermetic paradigm uses the Magic Power Modifier, wizards of the Order deal with many of the same issues that “Hermetic sorcerers” have to deal with, such as fluctuating mana levels. So it can be tricky at times to distinguish a Hermetic mage from a Hermetic sorcerer. Matters are even messier in that members of the Order of Hermes aren’t prevented from learning and using the spells of Hermetic sorcerers; indeed, the same Magery that acts like a Power Talent for them also serves as an enabler for regular spell magic. It’s just that this option is rarely pursued because study of the Realms is so much more effective than learning spells one by one. Likewise, both types of Hermetics find it useful to study Thaumatology — though the Awakened ones arguably get more use out of the skill than the Sleeper ones do.

• The Dreamspeakers’ Spirit-based paradigm means that they don’t have to worry about fluctuating mana levels the way that the Order of Hermes does; but they do have to worry about appeasing the spirits, and they depend on Ritual Magic. They coexist with “Sleeper shamans” who practice a type of Path Magic reminiscent of the magic system found in Voodoo: the Shadow War: Ritual Magic as the core skill; five or six Paths (including Spirit, Health, and Nature; probably also including two or three of Luck, Protection, Knowledge, and Dreams); the need for long rituals, sacred space, and ritual symbols; etc. And the Dreamspeakers’ own powers, while definitely a cut above those of the Sleeper shamans, resemble them in several ways.

And so on.

That all depends on how you define “flexible”.

Oh, certainly! That said, the VAs have never tried to pretend that they’re not technomancers (though there’s a lot more “-mancer” than “techno-” in the Reality Hackers); and the main divide between them and the Technocracy has less to do with what paradigm they favor than with what they shuld do with that paradigm: liberation vs. control is much more at the heart of the dispute between the Technocracy and the VAs than what paradigm to use.

Heck, that’s true (albeit to a somewhat lesser extent) of every Tradition: the Ascension War isn’t about what form magic should take; it’s about what you should do with it.

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

Not exactly. They are burdened with the responcibility no matter what. They all die and come back as part of their awakening. Most Euthanatos don't kill, and wouldn't except in extreme circumstances. Those that do the killing are seen as extra burdened. House Helakar was seen as an abommination because they enjoyed killing. The average Euthanatos is more likely to force someone out of their rut. They might get someone fired from their job, wreck their engagement, and get their home foreclosed, to push them into to taking a chance on their dreams. Note: any Euthanatos that does these things without making sure they don't destroy or seriously harm their subject would be seen as immoral.

Euthanatos tend to see serial killers, child molesters, serial rapists, and similar types as living dead people. They would desire to liberate them from a failed life in such a way as to clean their karma, that they might be born to better lives. This need not involve killing them, exposing their crimes and getting them tried and convicted might do just as well. Similarly, people who are brain dead and on life support are also seen as living dead. They also require liberation. Sometimes this is death, other times it's healing. Euthanatos are more likely to kill, but as servants of fate, they don't do so lightly nor would anyone who does so by preference be acceptable to the Euthanatos.

For any Euthanatos, killing a sophant being is a terrible burden and a horrible thing to do. It is a burtal punishment to be requiered to kill. but they face the punishment that others may avoid worse horrors. Note: The Euthatos can't stand creeps who get off on martyrdom.

The CoX sees these as the start of the path of Liberation. They believe that a generous universe placed the path of mankind's liberation and exaltation in plain sight. That doesn't mean the path isn't hard and dangerous, passion can kill. The path of ecstatic experience is hard and often deadly. The Code of Ananda (the law of Pleasure) is actually very strict. There are amoral CoX types calling themselves "The Cult of Bacchus" they tend to be far more selfish and selfcentered. The adherents of Ananda act to reign them in and prevent them from destroying others, when it possible. The Cult of Bacchus has from time to time forced the mainline Ecstatics to call in the Euthanatos and the Hermetics to aid them in eliminating groups gone bad beyond all words.

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

Right. The real touchstone of the Euthanatoi isn’t so much about death as it is about balancing the scales of karma.

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

Well, now I feel like I have a better handle on their philosophies, but have lost any idea of their magic.

Perhaps I'll come back to this when I can present what I'm trying to do in a more coherent fashion. To me, it seems as though much of the discussion here has ended up moving the idea in a direction very different than I'd intended. I've been calling this other direction "simulating the WW game" when I describe it to myself, and that's not exactly what I was hoping to do. Since that's what more than one person seems to want to do, though, it is clear that I am failing at communicating my intention. Sadly, I think that any attempt to further elucidate my original intent will appear as being merely argumentative.

Anyway, given what I had originally thought and some of the changes in that thinking that develop from the excellent conversation here, I think I have enough. I can just remove the CoX and Euthanatos from what I work up. Thank you for all of your help.

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

I suspected that you were wanting something other than what you’re calling “simulating the WW game”; but when I mentioned maybe getting away from the WW setting and just doing a multi-magic-system setting of your own, you insisted that your interest was MtA. I’m not trying to be argumentative, either; just pointing out where my confusion came from.

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

Hm. I like the setting, conceptually or on a "high level", as it were, though I am not necessarily so fond of the particular metaphysics and mechanical decisions that WW made in their game. Does that clarify it some, perhaps?

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

Frankly, a lot of my comments here have been a reaction to a feeling that I’ve been getting from your posts, that you somehow think that you’re improving MtA by switching over to GURPS and replacing MtA’s generic, universal magic system with a fractured assortment of distinct magic systems. (Oh, the irony!) I haven’t been trying to simulate MtA so much as I've been attempting to salvage those aspects of MtA that I like that you’ve been jettisoning.

As I understand it — and I’m not trying to be judgmental here — what you’re after is a setting that superficially resembles MtA (in that it features a diverse selection of magicians, each with their own kind of magic) without getting into any of the philosophical depths that MtA plumbs. Which is fine; but I’d suggest that you either run the game with a group that knows very little about MtA to avoid misunderstandings or “file off the serial numbers” (e.g., change the names of the various factions) and present it as a game that’s loosely inspired by MtA but is not attempting to be MtA. Either way, the goal should be to discourage people from drawing comparisons between your game and MtA: they should be treated as separate things, each to be judged on its own merits. Stop trying to call it an adaptation of MtA, and I’ll stop trying to insist that you adapt MtA. ;)

One advantage of going with “loosely inspired by” instead of “adaptation of” is that you get to use MtA as a starting point, branching out from there. The nine Traditions presented in MtA aren’t what I’d use if I were devising an MtA-like setting of my own, as there are some styles of magic that get awkwardly lumped together into a single Tradition and others that end up split up over several Traditions.

For instance, I’d be inclined to add a Tradition of Necromancers who deal with ghosts and related entities, drawing inspiration from such sources as Aztec, ancient Egyptian, central African, and Caribbean mythologies (e.g., the Aztecs’ blood sacrifices; the ancient Egyptian concepts of the soul and the afterlife, which drove their practice of mummification; central African traditions of ancestor worship; and the Loa of Voodoo fame). Currently, such concepts kinda sorta (but not really) get shoehorned into the Euthanatoi or the Dreamspeakers, but are primarily represented in MtA by various Crafts. This would also be the way to include psychics, since there isn’t really a Tradition that fits that mold.

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

Different philosophical depths. I don't accept the metaphysics that WW seems to have pursued as being the most interesting possibility given the setting concepts, which leads me into different philosophical waters. You are, of course, free to prefer whichever metaphysical set of assumptions, and subsequent philosophy, you like.

The idea of a separate tradition of necromancers seems like a good one.

As for the rest, yes, you are right. Being more explicit about it being loosely inspired by rather than strictly an adaptation of would probably be best.

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

I agree with you lugaid, M:tA didn't do enough to differentiate the traditions. That said, I think that if I were to use the setting, I'd use a common system for all traditions but customize it for each one, much as Dataweaver suggested, probably with mandatory modifiers (mostly limitations) on their Realm Magic advantages.

However, I do have experience with mixing magic systems. In fact, the basic concept for my fantasy campaign was "Mix all the weird stuff, but without making it goofy like IOU."

I'm a bit behind, though; I haven't quite figured out how to work in all the ideas in Thaumatology. Still, I've got plenty.

The standard system is the magic associated with wizards, what most people think of as magic. It's famously tactical: Most of the spells take a moment to cast, just a word and a gesture. Ceremonial spells are possible, but they're mainly for enchantment: Making items which can cast a spell in but a moment.

Master wizards also use the system called "ritual magic" in 4e, though I hate the name because there's nothing inherently ritualistic about it. In my campaign, it's called "arcane" as in in secret, because nobody teaches it to foolish young apprentices. In addition to allowing a wizard to improvise any spell he can think of, it also uses the "threshold" system instead of fatigue.

A form of magic granted by a divine agency is also possible, Power Investiture, but for cosmological reasons, it's rare. Priests mostly use effect-shaping book magic (another awful name). It's strategic rather than tactical. Spells take a long time to cast but can be really powerful, cast over any distance with indefinite duration (using a fetish to maintain). Priests who cast a lot of spells are like hackers, using "social engineering" to get true names and hair samples.

Wannabe wizards without Magery can use Rune Magic or Words of Power, that is written or spoken syntactic magic. The spoken form is more powerful, but all the words are bang skills and the energy cost is higher. Mortals can bear the high cost, barely, if they don't overdo it, because again I use the threshold system. Syntactic magic is slower than standard, faster than book magic. It's more flexible than standard, too. While arcane is just as flexible in theory, it takes hefty penalties for complex spells, so there's a niche for syntactic casters.

One God grants Divine Favor, and another grants pact magic with spiritual distortion.

Some people have a magic gift that breaks the mold, doesn't even require mana. That's psionics.

Everybody knows about legendary warriors; what they don't know is that those warriors are a special kind of magician. They use the magic of motion, or kinemagic; notice how it kinda sounds like cinematic? Call it ki for short.

And then there's chaos mutation, which can do anything a super power can do. Dwarves can have elemental powers instead.

The Society of Geometers have found that when they contemplate the ideal shape, with understanding, they unlock powers of the hyper-intellect, including gadgeteer. What they do seems like magic to common folk.

Basically, it works. Yes, there are balance issues that are a work in progress. A fetish created by a priest can be a lot cheaper than a powerstone. So, maybe it should only work for priestly magic? That's no good, effect-shaping doesn't cost fatigue. I suppose I could use Energy Accumulation, maybe switch to RPM, but that version is more time-consuming in play. Basically, I rule that all the powers interact. Dispel Magic (standard system) and Dispel Ritual (priest magic) and Neutralize (psi power) and the imbuement Strike of Negation (ki power) all do the same thing.

You can easily make the case that Effect Shaping is the most powerful and kinemagic is the weakest, but a wizard is faster than a priest and a power blow is faster than a spell. Psi is expensive in points, but cheap in fatigue cost, and it's not obvious when in use. If players know what they're getting, going in, then the balance is close enough.

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

Exactly. And they except that their backs are the pivot on which it will be balanced.

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

For what it’s worth, Mage: the Ascension is going to be getting a Kickstarter for its 20th Anniversary edition (a bit of a misnomer, as it missed the 20th anniversary deadline) sometime within a week; and the book is likely to be published a few months from now. When that happens, I’ll probably revisit this topic from the angle of “how to update GURPS Mage: the Ascension to both GURPS 4e and M20 standards”. When the time comes, I’ll probably start a new topic for it, as the mission statement for that will be significantly different from the purpose of this thread.

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

If you want to use the power structures from M:tA, why not just use Detect, Control, and Create?

1 dot is usually Detect
2 dots is usually a limited Control
3 dots adds in limited Create/Transform
4 dots removes many of the Limits on Control
5 dots removes many of the limits on Create/Transform

All of these of course have accessibility limitations based on the Tradition of the user(Generally Preparation and appropriate materials for the tradition), and the rules of consensual reality(Paradox and such)

You can either use the M:tA spheres, or define your own.

You can even have power levels independent of the sphere level by letting different Mages take different levels of the create/control powers

'Magic' in Mage the Ascension was less about 'magic' as used by Merlin, and more about exerting your will on the reality around you like a minor deity.
Seems like the best way to emulate that in GURPS would be to use the 'god-like' create and control powers.

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

That was the stated explanation of magic in Mage. If you had an awakened avatar and a strong enough will, you could alter reality and were a mage. To do it consciously and consistently, you needed a paradigm to work through.

It was their paradigms that were supposed to differentiate the different Traditions, Conventions, Crafts etc. and make all their magic seem distinct, even though underneath they were all doing the same thing, altering reality with their awakened avatar and will.

It made sense for there to be one unified system for magic in Mage, part of the setting conceit was that all the mages were all really doing the same thing, but they just couldn't see it.

Unfortunately, there really weren't any mechanics to support the differentiation of paradigms, so unless the GM was willing to really restrict players attempts at magic without support from the rules, and based on fairly vague descriptions of paradigms, all the different types of mages could end up feeling very much the same.

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

Phil Masters covered it in GURPS: Thaumatology. He called it Realm magic. Read his stuff and all should be simple. All praise the Phil!!!!

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

Incidentally, I found that it helped a lot to write up rotes that really specified the ritual elements of the specific rote you were doing when I was playing GURPS M:tA. I thought their official rote collection really fell short in that it left out what the magician was actually doing. A Verbena flight rote is much more interesting when you include the part where you strip naked and rub the fat from a goose or a swan over your body.

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

On the contrary: “Magic” in MtA is very much about “magic” as used by Merlin. It’s also about the stars of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, faith healers, tantric muses, shamans, the witches in MacBeth*, chaos magicians, mad scientists, druids, hackers, cyborgs, men in black, genetic engineers, financial wizards, space marines, and a bunch of others. And it’s about exerting your will on the world around you like a minor deity, once you reach the later stages of the game; but we need little in the way of help in implementing that last one.

As Mr_Sandman said, the key issue here isn’t about how to replicate the capabilities of the MtA magic system; that’s nicely handled by Realm Magic. It’s about how to make the paradigms more meaningful. Tossing them out entirely is exactly the opposite of what we’re trying to do here.

* Note to lugaid: that’s a place to go for Euthanatos inspiration. The concept of the witch is actually split between the Verbena (who emphasize the fertility treatments and home remedies side of things) and the Euthanaoi (who deal in determining peoples’ Fates and placing curses or geases on them).
Or, you know, grabbing a broom and straddling it.

It’s also worth noting that GURPS Mage: the Ascension was based on the first edition of the game, which was rendered obsolete within a year of its publication. So yes, the official rote collection (among many other things) really fell short.

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

Yes! That is much more what I was thinking. Thank you for presenting it in a much more clear fashion than I did. I'd only add that, for myself anyway, I wasn't necessarily looking for specific mechanics (I can do that on my own), but rather for an understanding of the more difficult elements in the MtA "bestiary" (as it were). That people are, of course (and rightly), going to be interested in working up the mechanical approach too is something that I really should have foreseen and taken into consideration when formulating the initial post.

Very nice. That does give me a different way to look at this, which might be quite fruitful.

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

In terms of my proposed mechanics: I’d have all of the Traditions share the same set of Realms, for the most part: Correspondence, Fate, Forces, Life, Matter, Mind, Prime, Spirit, and Time. I’d allow some customization to this: for instance, many Virtual Adepts replace Correspondence with Data (a Correspondence variant described in the recent NWO Convention Book); most Euthanatoi practice Entropy instead of Fate (the former having more of a focus on destructive phenomena than the latter); Etherites often practice Machines instead of Matter (the former being a variant of the latter focusing more on intricate systems than on the properties of substances, and incorporating the ability to create Wonders); and so on.

Likewise with the Technocracy: the same nine Realms, with individual Conventions often favoring variants of one or two Realms that are more closely aligned with their perspectives. Conversely, there should be Disparate factions with Realm sets that have little in common with the Traditions’ Realms. For instance, I could see the Sisters of Hypollyta using Season-themed Realms instead of the default nine: anything that doesn’t fit into one or another of their Realms either involves Conjunctional use of several or simply isn’t available to them.

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

An excerpt from the upcoming 20th Anniversary Edition of Mage, posted to its Facebook page by the author:

Chaos Magick

It’s not what you think it is. Although the term “chaos magic” tends to be associated with demons and evil (thanks, Michael Moorcock!), occultists understand chaos magick as a postmodern and often improvisational Art. Like other mystic practices, it emphasizes knowledge, reflection, and other forms of self-improvement. This revolutionary inversion of traditional mystic disciplines, however, depends upon personal intuition and interpretation; individual freedom; a deliberately iconoclastic approach; and an often subversive use of pop-culture symbols, social behaviors and improvised designs.

Chaos magick spits in the face of established dogma. Often regarded by outsiders as a Left-Hand Path, it’s a sex, drugs and rock-n-roll sort of practice, raising and directing personal energy (that is, Quintessence) through extreme experiences. Obviously, this sort of thing appeals to Cultists of Ecstasy, whose more formal practices – Tantra, visonquesting, ordeals and crazy wisdom (see below) – have been integrated into the chaos-magick potpourri. Even that diverse cult-ture, however, is too confining for many chaos practitioners, whose embrace of the Chaosphere – the whirling fractal of absolute existence – resists confinement in any form.

Playful yet serious, each chaos-magick practice draws from the individual practitioner’s experiences and desires. Some folks use toys and Tarot cards, while others craft graphic novels, run raves, stage flash mobs, and concoct elaborate pranks on society at large. Eris, Bob, the Flying Spaghetti Monster… these deities supplant the classic divinities in a chaotic pantheon whose figureheads are less concerned with worship than with inversion. Each mage, then, is a vortex of potential whose Will spins energy into being. And if this sounds too abstract to be useful, then you’re thinking about it too hard.

Associated Abilities: Art, Awareness, Carousing, Computer, Esoterica, Expression, Lucid Dreaming, Meditation, Pharmacopeia, Streetwise, Technology

Common Instruments: Whatever works, so long as none of it becomes too stable or confining.

I’m posting this here because it gives insight into the magic wielded by the Cult of Ecstasy. The Cultists are, in essence, Chaos Magicians as described above — or, at least, many of them are.

Another spoiler from the Kickstarter comments: The Euthanatoi have decided to go back to the name they used in the earliest days of their Tradition: the Chakravanti. With this, the Tradition is focusing more on its role as the purveyors and agents of Fate than on the “magical assassins” reputation they’ve garnered over the centuries.

Re: GURPS M:tA
 

Those are likely to be helpful. Thank you.