Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

Which reads to me that you are really keen on running a certain game, and GURPS is what you found to run it. This is not the case for others.

And would sidestep supporting local businesses. I could likely find a technical manual or a coursebook, for example, at the same price reduction too, if I was willing to accept the tradeoffs.

That's the general perception of GURPS and has been for over a decade. GURPS Supers didn't help nor that most GURPS settings and genres are low-powered, default point values were low, and default combat lethal. Jurgen, for example, has mentioned this before. 4e may eventually change the perception but it's currently still there.

No. Again I was referring to a general perception and Sidekick is certainly cheaper and slimmer than GURPS 4e by almost $65 and 450 pages while being the essentials of the game in one book. $10 (or $7 on pdf) is even low enough for a compulsive buy and try for almost anyone into RPGs.

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

That or reading an actual textbook that will help complete a degree or help earn some more money.

Dedicated local groups that run GURPS taking a night a month or so at the FLGS to run their game or better yet a demo game would also help. Though having something between GURPS Lite and GURPS Basic to use and hand out would help a lot IMO. :)

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

That's an interesting idea. Alternatively, you may be able to condense Lite to *just what was needed* for the scenario, and make the whole thing fill 29 pages of a 30 page download. (The 30th page would be a list of the books you'd need to expand the scenario into a campaign.)

I'm seeing some interesting ideas in this thread -- keep it up!

Also: for the purposes of this thread, let's assume the need for a low-cost, low-complexity product is real. Debates against the need for such a product really belong in another thread, just to keep the discussions flowing.

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

Paul,
Since you commented on the thread again - can I suggest something?

I work at a game store and notice that you have most of your humor and card games in a standard box size. (Ninja Burger, Munchkin, etc.)

How about packaging in that box size a small game that uses basic GURPS mechanics? Something that maybe 2 to 4 players can do.

If you package more than one like this - pick a different genre for each one and include a pamphlet sheet inside that explains the LARGER GURPS line, and highlights the world book that relates to the box game version.

For example "OrcFight!!" A fun simple battle between 4-5 Orcs and a some elves and humans. Cardboard counters with bases , using the GURPS basic combat rules and 3 by 5 character cards for each cardboard counter. But the implied setting is Caithness of Yrth that is mentioned in BANESTORM.

'Powerfight!" = the same idea but with superhero and Supervillian type characters capsulated. ...also with 4 to 5 cardbound charaters and character cards on each side. And with an inside promo sheet for GURPS:POWERS

You make it so that these simple characters may also be can be used in a regular GURPS game later ...so that the parts and map boards inside are reusable with the regular GURPS games the purchaser might get interested in doing later.

- E.W. Charlton

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

Such as.... Ninja Burger?

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

For these 32-page settings, you could also 'd20-fy' chargen by using templates that hold people's hands. Don't list the point costs for things other than selecting advantages and disadvantages, and then only use ones that cost multiples of 5 points; skills in templates would list skill levels, but not difficulties or point costs.

The templates could give them (say) 100 points of attributes, 40 points of advantages, 25 points of disadvantages, 5 4-point primary skills, 5 2-point secondary skills, and 5 1-point background skills, fully compatible with the full GURPS rules. But the new players would never have to think about point sums; just making choices that suit their character ideas from a few lists.

The full chargen rules (with a handy table listing all the attributes, advantages, disadvantages, and skills, with their costs/difficulties) would make for a tidy 'Advanced Chargen' page near the back of your 32-page booklet. But until players new to point-based systems (or new to roleplaying!) are ready for the full complexity and detail of GURPS, they can use the streamlined templates to create detailed, fully-compatible characters with all the compexity of creating a 1st-level D&D fighter.

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

Boxed game sets have been done before, and will likely be done again. However, unless you're willing for them to be a *large* loss leader -- like the D&D Basic thingee -- the price tag will scare away most of those whom the content is designed to attract.

I'm thinking GURPS Lite's format (free pdf and ~30pg printout) is the way to go.

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

If someone were to write this, would you be able to pay them?

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

*shrug* This is an ongoing quandary in our society: Buy cheaper or buy from a small local business? Frankly, I'm going to be looking out for number one until I start to draw a reasonable income (which may be never); not everyone can afford to shop more expensively to help support local businesses and stick it to The Man. To some folks (college students, for example), five bucks is a lot of money.

Even so, I still shop at local FLGSs from time to time and take a financial hit.

Since you're so worried about the cost of the Basic Set, just pay $50 for it on the Internet. Then, if you like it, donate $24 to a FLGS. Solves your moral quandary . . . best of both worlds!

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

Paul,
What I 'm thinking of is somethin affordable that I can hook custimers into thinking about GURPs and buying more of it later. Have had several custoimers try the D&D pre-painted miniatures box thing. When they hear that the combat system in regular D&D is the same - they come back and buy those hardbacks.

Why not something similiar for GURPS?

OR those mini adventure things thar Paizo publishing is doing called GameMastery - each one of those could of been done GURPS-mechanis style with cardboard heroes instead of pewter minis. Heck there might be enogh room to incloded NPC write up . Each of those is around $15.00. Gurps kind of needs a lower cost entry thing.

As for pdfs - frankly a lot of the customers I have would rather have something they can hold in their hhands or that my store could sell to them. (hint, hint, elephant-sized hint) I can't sell something that is not physically in the store .

I do want to see GURPS stuff sell more often.

Edmund W. Charlton

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

1. Start with an adventure. Since this is an on-the-cheap effort, pick a few adventures from the Pyramid archive, since you've already got the electronic distribution rights for those. Possibly bribe the authors with half a candy bar each to smooth the way for physical distribution as well.

2. Build a few basic characters and such NPCs as necessary, keeping the skill lists fairly short.

3. Take GURPS Lite and remove skills, advantages, and disads not used in any of the characters provided. A few things may, of course, need to be added (frex, spells for a fantasy adventure, pre-built afflictions and other abilities for a supers or sci-fi adventure).

4. Shorten charts as much as feasible. Say, reduce the ST to damage chart to the 8-16 range, or whatever minimum range is necessary to encompass the range of STs used by characters provided. Remove weapons not used in the adventure.

5. Tack on an "appendix" pointing to the rest of the GURPS line and make available for free download.

6. Profit!

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

Hmm.

1. There´s gurps lite for 4e - right?
It is free to download, right? The paper version is (or will be) either free or cheap and not too big right? (I hawent seen it)

2. There´s worldbooks coming in, right? My personal experience on 3E gurps worldbooks is that they are so good that you sometimes want to buy them just for reading ewen if you´re not sure you´ll ewer play the setting..

3. with gurps lite and one worldbook you hawe a completely playable RPG. Right or wrong?? I think you do. If not maybe just adding a little on the LITE and/or putting a chapter on worldbooks where you possibly repeat something from the "core book" would make it so.

So why not make sure that the game is playable with one worldbook and LITE and tell it to the people. Like put on ewery new worldbook a text with essentially the following content: "Expansion to GURPS but ALSO playable with FREE LITE WERSION of the rules." And if some of the already ready 4e books are not crrently playable with lite make small free addition (at least downloadable if not distributed on stores...) that repats the necessary stuff from the core books to make it playable (but I gues that this might not ewen be necessary for most worldbooks..).

That way anyone who sees a gurps worldbook in gaming store that catches his/her fancy by looking cool or being exactly the setting they want to RP or whatewer wont be put down by the touch that he/she has to by the two core books too but will instead pick up the lite wersion and read it through and see that it´s really good and simple rules system and byu the worldbook :)
Or that´s what we hope will happen.

Anyway the point is - Make the world books the entry point. I don´t think that hardcore gurps afans would mind a little bit of content repeated from the core books as they´d might also work as a reference to what corebook skills etc are most apprpriate for the setting and they certainly wouldnt mind if the cower and art style in general is fancy and has unique style as long as it doesnt completely blow up the price.

(And yes - I dont hawe the 4E core books and I´m interested with some of the worldbooks... So also old 3e geezers like me would benefit and appreciate it. BTW I found the 3e worldbooks so interesting to read that I don´t really mind almost newer finding the time and players to actually run a campaing with them but I´d like to be at least hopeful of being able to actually run a campaing if/when buying new 4e worldbooks rather than to buy them just for reading.)

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

I could see these ideas working well in one of two way that have been mentioned.

The first is to make scenarios which require only GURPS Lite.
These scenarios would undoubtedly need to mention a few more rules, pieces of equipment, etc, in addition to straight scenario material.

The second would be, in addition to the scenario, to have a pdf which takes GURPS lite and takes out the stuff that's not needed and adds the stuff that is.

I think both of these are really good ideas, and you could even combine them, sort of.

Take GURPS Lite, and make genre expansions. maybe 10 - 20 pages per genre with extra rules, equipment, etc, and common templates for that genre. Call it Fantasy Lite, Space Lite, etc.

Then have scenarios which can be all adventure, but suggest certain templates, point costs, advantages, skills, or whatever. Maybe even toss out an extra rule, skill, or advantage.

Then make the whole thing downloadable from one link, charge a $5 or whatever for all three together and there you go. Someone would be able to try gurps out with one scenario, and continue for a few adventures if they like it and want to try more, but eventually they'll need to buy the core books if they want to get serious.

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

Oh, and I think making taylored versions of Lite to go with 3e worldbooks could work well too, but it might be difficult with the conversion and all.

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

Its NOT a free download you have to register and it fried my system last week.

I liked it better when I didn't have to jump through hoops to print a copy .

Again, pdf is NOT the way to go. I want to keep FLGS in business - that means physical non-computer thingies you can hand to a customer ..when they hand you currency.

- E.W. Charlton

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

???

Assuming you're talking about GURPS Lite, the only "hoops" you need to jump through are a couple extra clicks. Now, I'm generally against extra clicks, but with e23, it certainly helps us track how often a product is downloaded.

Registering is purely optional for *all* freebies from e23.

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

If they wrote it to an approved outline, met the quality standards, etc etc etc, of course.

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

Hmmh. There alreaydy was a taylored LITE at some point. Transhuman space was it??

But I don´t think thats the way to go.
Maybe a bit beefier 5$ lite that would make the worldbooks playable by themselwes would do the trick. Then you could hawe for (N+5)$ (where N is the price of the worldbook) playable game on decent quality paper and all. Much more reasonable than (N+70+)$ for the full set and nicer than paying N$(+printing) and hawing to play with the core rules just on crappy printouts..

Yes the 70$ might not be much if you play regularly but it can be steep if you are thinking about buying a GURPS worldbook you like and you need to pay the 70$ in addition to the cost of the worldbook to start playing...

I repeat: the worldbooks should be the entry point. To RPG you need a game world. And the worldbooks are attractive and interesting in themselwes (at least to the fans of any of the settings involwed) while the rulebooks might be not (at least on first clance.).

But 5$ would on the other hand would seem cheap for ewen simple RPG rules on quality paper and cowers etc - ewen if theyre available free on pdf (and especially if they come with full permission to copy and distribute to players for free..)

Yes SJG migvht lose some sales of the core rulebooks by making the world books playable with lite but i think thay would more than make up that on increased sales of the worldbooks - and eventually maybe ewen sell more of the core books (some of people starting a campaing (or two) with lite might decide to get the core books too)..


EDIT:
I´m not saying that cheap and simple introductionary adventures wich do not requirte a worldbook wouldnt be a good idea too! They´d be wery good for novice RPGrs, but to someone already familiar with RPGs (like d20 players) the worldbooks in themselwes would be more attractive and the costly and (apparently) rules heawy core rulebooks possibly an obstacle..

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

Like The Sorcerer's Impediments does for IN, once Chris got through with it?

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

But what´s the need to include "condensed rules" as the Glite is already out and free? The lite is not too costly or intimidating to pick up - or is it?

Just support the lite by making the adventures runnable with it and make the worldbooks so that you can at least build appropriate characters and run one shot adventures in the gameworld in question.

Then if the playgroup decides that they want more options for character building or more detail to combat or some advise on running a campaing... -Core rulebooks sold!

So.. Support the lite! (sounds catchy - despite the apparent senselesnes of supporting a free product...)

BTW..IMHO..
Introductionary adventures would be fine but I´d place the priority on the worldbooks - but then that´s just me - I just like them. But yes some more smaller, cheaper worldbooks could be attarctive both for new players (as long as they are playable with lite and that it is made clear rthat it´s so) and to old time gurps fans alike. While the adventures might not interest those that already hawe a campaing running etc..

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

Someone else has already mentioned this, but Ninja Burger is a neat little hybrid between SJ-Cards and SJ-GURPS. I wonder how feasible it might be to work up real GURPS character sheets for the defined ninja, turn maybe half a dozen of the missions into solo mini-episodes that are nonetheless a bit more complex than the card versions, and toss that into the box as a GURPS teaser....

Of course, there's always that pesky licensing issue to deal with, as there already is a Ninja Burger RPG....

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

Loving my old redbox a lot, I'd think that that would be the way to go. (For a lot of reasons, but especially since it had a solo adventure... ^^;) If you added the two Red Box booklets together, you'd have one 96-page booklet -- you could put that up for free download and sell it for $10 for a profit.

A lot of what I liked about the old D&D red box was included in the D&D basic set -- but even without the dice and the minis, you could get a lot out of just a booklet. I was able to ease a lot of people into GURPS by running the solo adventure from 3e's basic set for them.

Hey, Grendel? If you ever get back to work on that "GURPS Redbox", get in touch with me? I'd like to help if I could...

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

Are all of the 4th edition books going to be big hardcovers? It seems to me that cheaper 100 page softbacks would be a great entry point into 4th edition.

The entry point books would have a brand new world or a campaign or a series of related adventures. Pre-gen characters, and simplified character templates, and a list of NPC's in the book plus a few generic NPC's - Caravan guard, merchant, Guild assassin, etc. Then in the back would have a copy of Lite or info on where to download it. Final chapter would be a list of Gurps books with short blurbs and a list of reasons why you should buy the main books.

So the book would be smaller and cheaper which means more likely to sell to people that don't know Gurps. And would hopefully get more people to become Gurps players and then sell more of the hardbacks. Win - win, yes?

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

Yeah, support GURPS Lite.

Don't loose time custom tailoring it with adventures. Maybe expand Lite to 48 pages (as it was originally scheduled, Andrew Hackard words) and make it a really playable introduction to GURPS: add a few traits, equipment and a little bit of magic from Lite 3rd edition, add rapid fire and bleeding rules, add hit location and Fright Checks from WWII Lite.

OK, now you have a really good introduction to GURPS, with which you can play a wide range of simple adventures -- Sci-fi, Horror, Military, Fantasy, etc. Put a free fantasy scenario, a free sci-fi one and a free modern horror one on e23. You have a winner.

By the way: were the heck is "Caravan to Ein Arris" for 4e?

That's not good support.

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

Okay so how do you plan to inform new ppl about the web site and e23?

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

Well it seams like if they are not going into Hardback they going into e23 like GURPS Mysteries

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

For which this model, I am not a fan of...but I do understand why its being done. And, I'd rather have the e23 stuff than have it not being in print at all. You know like the new Transhuman Space conversion guide... :)

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

You know... a GURPS 4e conversion/adaptation of the old Orcslayer game may be a lot like what we're looking for... ^^;

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

YES. Except i´d leave any optional combat rules like bleeding out. Fright checks - yes. Magickwould also be a bit hard to ad properly - and it´s pretty much fantasy only so that would hawe to be included in the adventures themselwes if really needed (ie if there´s a wizard PC/NPC the magical aptitude and the spells would be explained in the free e23 scenario itself)
Maybe same goes for rapid fire (you need the rules only if you hawe equ right..) That would also showcase the expandapility of GURPS while sawing room on the lite itself.

Uh and ..
..this could of course go to the 48 page lite itself.. And of course the mention that there are free adventures on e23 (and the webpage)

BUT yes. cheaper softcower adventure packs or worldboks would be fine. Theyd not need to include the core rules but only necessary additions to make it palyable with lite and a text written in big friendly letters: Don´t panic - playable with GURPS lite. ;) (just make sure that the lite is available nearby - like on the same shops..)

Of course if the lite was 48 page and with better quality paper and cowers it could be called GURPS compact ot GURPS core and sold for minimum prize (somethiong that cowers teh printing and shipping but really nothing else - 5$? - though it might hawe to be send to retailers for even cheaper or bundled with other gurps suff) and still free in e23.

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

I said it once before and no one replied to it yet so i pose the same quesiton

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

When I meet people that would like to try roleplaying the first question I ask them is what sort of setting would they play.
- Fantasy? Go for DnD.
- Cyberpunk? Go for Shadowrun.
- SF? Go for Star Wars.
- Anne Rice? Go for Vampire.
Where does GURPS fit in the above equation?

Yes, GURPS can actually run ALL of the above settings, but the problem is that the beginner does not want a generic game - the beginner want a game that can handle the specific setting that he want to play.
After a while the beginner will grow frustrated over the limited system he has bought, but at that time he has already spent a couple of hundred dollars on that system.

Has anyone seen the WEG d6-system?
There are actually more than one book:
- d6 Adventure
- d6 Fantasy
- d6 Space
etc.

Why not call the current GURPS lite for "GURPS Lite Adventure", and then do some more GURPS Lites called: "GURPS Lite Fantasy", "GURPS Lite Space" etc.
In this way the beginner will find the specific setting he want, and later find out that the underlying system is generic.

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

Um I sort of replied...
On the GURPS lite of course. (wich would be availanble on gaming stores, etc)
And isn´t the SJG webpage mentioned in about every new SJG product anyway? (I doesnt hawe any at hand now but i think it is..)

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

Just a fast comment about bleeding, magic and rapid fire in Lite.

Well, magic has been included in Lite 3rd edition, and I can tell you it worked fine, because I actually run 2 fantasy adventures with only the free pdf. Yes the rules are incomplete and the spells list is limited, however it's an introduction, it just serves as a starter kit.

Rapid fire is needed for just every modern game. It's used for pistols, shotguns, rifles . . . auto or semi-auto doesn't matter. If you want contemporary guns, then you need rapid fire rules.

The Bleeding optional rule is such a small addition -- look at how long is the write-up on p. B420 -- enhancing realistic/gritty/horror games so much more, that it seems a very smart move to include it. And note that WWII Lite included bleeding and crippling (p. 31), in just three paragraphs.

Re: GURPS 4e Entry Point
 

What about big posters for free for game shops to put up advertising GURPS, with the jigsaw cover style and having a sort of 'Try GURPS for Free! — Get GURPS Lite and GURPS (Space|Fantasy|Foo|Bar) Adventures' text. Leave the body of advertising GURPS for inside the adventure supplement.

Ship them out to game shops with a couple of copies of lite and some of the adventures as well as clearly putting the links on the. maybe even a new tidy, memorable link like sjgames.com/gurps/free/ ?