[Technical Grappling] Teach me using examples
 

I'm really spoiled from knowing GURPS rules well enough not to have to worry about it during the average session, so when a supplement that changes enough for me to be unable to wing things comes out, I am helpless. Well, at least lazy.

I understand the principle of Control Points replacing the flat -4 grappling penalty well enough. But I'm hazy on how things work in play.

So, to begin with, how will this affect Sir Michael Carragher, the primary warrior of my long-running fantasy game? His most important styles include Longsword Fighting, Master of Defence Training and Combat Wrestling. Mickey is a Weapon Master with ST 20, DX 14 and HT 15, with Experienced* Talent 4 and skill 24/DX+10 in Broadsword and Two-Handed Sword, skill 25/DX+11 in Brawling and Wrestling, skill 19/DX+5 in Judo and around skill 22/DX+8 in a lot of other weapons. He has the Armed Grapple technique at full skill for Two-Handed Sword and Staff; as well as Sweep at full skill for Two-Handed Sword.

From what I can gather, he has a Trained ST 30 with Wrestling and Trained ST 28 with Two-Handed Sword. With most other grappling weapons, except sticks, he has Trained ST 26, but with most sticks he's Trained ST 28 and those that can be used with Broadsword or Two-Handed Sword skill are Trained ST 30.

This means that he inflicts 3d CP unarmed, 3d+5 with a two-handed sword, 3d+6 with a Reach 2 stick used with two-handed sword skill and 2d+6 with most weapons, 3d+5 with most sticks.

Am I doing that correctly?

*Affects all combat skills.

Re: [Technical Grappling] Teach me using examples
 

Before I answer, have you read all the TG stuff on my blog? Go to The Grappling Mat section for max efficiency.

Re: [Technical Grappling] Teach me using examples
 

I have not. Edit: Well, now I have.

Evidently, I need Pyramid 3 /#61.

I'm also fairly confused about when Sir Michael can use the +2 to +6 his awesome BL gives him for wrestling with human-scale foes. If he's standing and Sweeps someone with his sword, does either party use the Grappling Encumbrance Modifier (assuming both have a positive modifier relative to their current foe)?

Sir Michael vs. skilled knight
 

Let's take a hypothetical opponent in the foot lists as an example. Say a 200 lbs. ST 15 knight wearing 50 lbs. of plate harness and carrying a pollax, rondel, poniard and sword, for ca 65 lbs. of encumbrance.

Say he's a reasonably skilled heroic knight with DX+6 in most of his primary skills, for a final score of 18 or so. That makes him dangerous to most people, but not really a worthy foe for Sir Michael.

Now, if Sir Michael is wearing arms and armour of ca 65 lbs. of his own, his 250 lbs. of heroic muscle makes him a total of 315 lbs. for the other knight to handle. That means that if they grapple, the other knight is at -1 for grappling weight modifier.

Sir Michael, however, would be at +5, because the 200+65 lbs. foe is still below 3.5 of his BL.

If the other knight tries to Sweep Sir Michael without grappling him first, does either number modify the Sweep roll?

Re: [Technical Grappling] Teach me using examples
 

Well, I certainly think so. :-)


Looking at it, it's an unfortunate double-reference. The Grappling Encumbrance thing points to p. 9, which in turn points to p. 20: Strength as a Proxy for Mass.

That's the canonical list of things where you're using skill to move mass around, and therefore where the Grappling Encumbrance Modifier applies. Sweep is on the list:

• Bear Hug (p. 34), though here ST is a proxy for bulk more
than mass.
• Change Position (p. 35).
• Force Posture Change (p. 37).
• Judo Throw (p. 39).
• Pickup (p. 24), including those that lead off a Backbreaker
(p. 41) or Piledriver (p. 42).
• Shoving People Around (p. 25).
• Sweep (p. 40).
• Throws from Locks (p. 25).

Anything on this list benefits from the attacker being big; the encumbrance bonuses or penalties are applied for both fighters. While it seems like it might be a good idea to just use a relative modifier, there are many cases where you need/want to be strong and skilled to do something, and not only does margin of victory matter, but also whether or not you make the skill roll in an absolute sense.

This will be more important for weak guys trying to shove each other around. The example on p. 9 has both fighters dealing with -6 and -7 penalties to mass-based moves, so they will need to earn and spend significant CP to avoid failing rolls based on skill.

This is a great place to point out that things like Wrench Limb and Force Posture Change (and others as denoted on p. 11) only require relative success (win by more, or fail by less, than your foe), which makes them ideal when operating at a penalty. This explicit list supersedes any interpretation required when looking at the phrase "defaults to ST" (for example, you don't default FPC to ST, but you may roll against it).

If you don't like this ("No, in my games, you must always make your roll as well as win the Contest!") more power to you!

Re: [Technical Grappling] Teach me using examples
 

I know Sweep is on the list, but from 'Weight Advantage' on p. 9, it seems as if neither one of two standing fighters has used Change Position to bring his weight to bear, the grappling encumbrance modifier doesn't apply. But the text is not explicit enough for me to be certain that this is the intended reading of the rule.

If that is not the intent of the rule and the modifier applies to any use of Sweep, regardless of whether or not the opponents are actually in a grapple and whether or not either of them has successfully brought his weight to bear, then can you spell out for me what the benefits of using Change Position to bring your weight to bear are? Just that you don't suffer any penalties and your foe loses any bonus?

Re: Sir Michael vs. skilled knight
 

I'd say they both apply. Sir Michael gets his bonuses because he's just that much stronger than his foe's weight. He's effectively like a normal guy sweeping a 70-lb boy. That's going to be pretty effective.

His foe, strong as he is, is struggling against a foe that is slightly heavier. He's going to have issues, thus the -1. Of course, the training bonus of Michael's foe, if it's +1 or more, will cancel this out (p. 8, under Grappling Weight Modifier), so he's likely fighting Michael at no penalty.

Re: [Technical Grappling] Teach me using examples
 

This is in there in case it's unclear what's going on and a player wants to force it. It's for things like side mount, or two grapplers that have found each other both lying down, and it's not clear from context who's supposed to be on top.


It's really to make a game-mechanical basis for an adjudication of "who's on top." If you take me down, are you automatically "on top" of me (and thus benefit from the bonus, and I lose any I have for being beneath you)? Maybe, maybe not. This says "accept a -4 to your Change Position roll, and you get to claim that weight advantage."

I'd use it, for example, to add a mass-based factor to a joint lock - notably absent from the list on p. 20.

Re: Sir Michael vs. skilled knight
 

This will please Tobbi, the player, to no end. I predict an endless succession of Sweeps*.

The Grappling Encumbrance Modifier does not affect rolls to hit with Sweep, though, does it? Just the Contest for effects, correct?

*Which will at least make a change from the previous endless succession of chopping off legs or hacking the torso. ;)

Yes, I noted that just after I posted. Of course the Training Bonus for Wrestling at DX+6 (which is +3, because it uses the Fast progression even for resisting Sweep, normally not a huge part of Wrestling, right?) will reduce the penalty down to 0 for the other knight.

Re: Sir Michael vs. skilled knight
 

Correct, it does not impact the hit rolls. Strength only applies after you successfully do whatever it is you want to do.

If he's a striker too, he'll also like the Destabilization Strike from Pyramid #3/61.

Re: Sir Michael vs. skilled knight
 

Very good.

His highest two skills are Brawling and Wrestling, both at skill 25 or DX+11. He tends to strike with his claymore, too.

Sir Michael vs. Braelgar Warblood
 

Hmmm... even against a more worthy opponent, Sir Michael's massive ST gives him a decisive advantage, I think. That won't cause any unhappiness with the player, of course.

Braelgar Warblood is a legendary Master of Defence who is present at the tourney where the PC is competing and will actually be his next opponent in the tilts. Of course, jousting is hardly Master Braelgar's chosen style, but his social status as a Master of a School of Defence with a Royal Writ entitles him to compete among the knights and nobles.

Sir Michael will probably make short work of Master Braelgar with a lance, seeing as he has a +1 to +2 advantage in skill scores that are important and a higher ST as well. And given Master Braelgar's pride, that might lead him to enter the foot lists, where it is not unlikely that he might face Sir Michael, especially if he makes a point of challenging him there.

So, Braelgar weighs the same as Mickey or 250 lbs., though in his case, there is some fat along with the muscle. He has ST 16 (HP 18), DX 12, HT 14. He has Experienced Talent 6 and Weapon Master. His skill with his halberd is DX+16 or skill 28 and he has Brawling DX+8 and Wrestling DX+10.

This means that he has Trained ST 21 with Wrestling, for a CP of 2d. With his halberd he has Trained ST 23 and a CP of 2d+5. Assuming that both combatants are wearing arms of 65 lbs., Master Braelgar has no grappling encumbrance penalty, since his Training Bonus reduces -2 to 0, but Sir Michael gets a +1.

Well, the high ST might not be a decisive bonus for Sir Michael here, since Master Braelgar is no lightweight. I guess he could squeek into +2 by keeping weight down on his harness and arms, for example wearing light plate on his legs and carrying nothing except a tourney longsword.

Edit: Assuming Sir Michael will wear only 55 lbs. of arms, which isn't actually all that implausible, assuming a rondel, bastard sword and a fairly light field armour for the foot lists, he'll be at +2 for the grappling encumbrance modifier relative to Master Braelgar.

This means that Sir Michael rolls vs. 24 to hit with a Sweep and vs. 30 in the Quick Contest. Master Braelgar sweeps at 25 to hit and rolls vs. 25 for effects in the Quick Contest, but he resists Sweeps at only 22.

Unfortunately for Sir Michael, hitting with the Sweep is more or less impossible, given Master Braelgar's Parry 19-20 or so.

Getting into Close Combat will be Sir Michael's best bet, where he can leverage his grappling skills and strength. At any kind of range, the much greater experience and expertise of the Master of Defence will tell and he'll be able to use the axe-head of the halberd to Hook at skill 28, with predictable nasty consequences.

Sweep Quick Contest
 

"A sweep is resolved as an attack followed by a Quick Contest
in the same turn."

GURPS Martial Arts: Technical Grappling p. 40.

A contest of what against what? If we are meant to use the rules from MA p. 81 unchanged, what about Trained ST? Can we substitute that for ST?*

*I assume so, but it doesn't say.

Re: Sir Michael vs. Braelgar Warblood
 

Of course. :-)

Sir Michael is effectively a super-hero. With several skills at DX+7 to DX+11 and a raw ST of 20, he's a grappling (and striking, for that matter) machine. If he REALLY wants to be a mega-grappler, take Extra Attack if he doesn't have it already. :-)

Re: Sweep Quick Contest
 

Yes, use the rules from MA, p. 81. I did a lot of that, and TG is meant to be used with MA.

You may substitute Trained ST for ST; that's not as explicit as it could be, but if you look at the footnote for Sumo Wrestling on p. 48, Sweep is one of the things impacted by the fast progression).

Even Wrenches benefit from your BEST training bonus (a fact that I had to remind myself of). If you do a search for "not Trained ST" you will come up with the very few things where ST cannot be replaced by Trained ST.

Re: Sir Michael vs. Braelgar Warblood
 

He is indeed. Of course, he exist in a world where experienced adventurers all develop super powers, so it's not as if never meets other superpowered individuals.

But his Brawling and Wrestling skills are usually higher than anyone he encounters, because he's a legendary barroom brawler as much as he is a heroic knight. :)

He was even trained a special tavern brawling style* in his Highland homeland, whose mythical originator was one of his own ancestors.

*The Lion Forewarned, named after 'The Lion of the Highlands', Anguy mac Anguy.

Even at 1000+, he still hasn't been able to afford it. Well, let's say that he's spent his point on other things every time around.

Stuff like Injury Tolerance: Damage Reduction 3 and suchlike.

He just uses Rapid Strike. At effective skill 24-29, he can make quite a few of those at -3 per.

Re: Sir Michael vs. Braelgar Warblood
 

Very true. My comment was driven by my writeup Technical Natasha, where she's probably ST 15 and about as skilled as Sir Michael, and I noted that a level of Extra Attack would go a long way to making some of her more interesting moves (like her signature double-leg neck grapple) more stackable, since that one move starts at a base of -12.

Re: Sweep Quick Contest
 

I don't have a PDF of Martial Arts and am away from home. If I recall correctly, the attacker rolls vs. either Sweep or his ST (Trained ST) and the defender can resist with ST, DX or highest grappling skill.

If Sir Michael is using his claymore to Sweep, does he have to use the Trained ST for his skill with it or can he use his highest Trained ST, i.e. that for Wrestling? Edit: Searching the PDF reveals that he figures Trained ST from his Sweep level, which is equal to his Two-Handed Sword skill.

Does Sweeping with a weapon rather than unarmed allow any kind of bonus for the lever effect, analogues to the bonus to CPs for Reach, or is the fact that you can Sweep at Reach 2 the only benefit?

Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

To get a feeling for the system, I'll try a few turns between these worthy opponents. They each know the styles that the other will be using, so they'll reduce the effects of Deceptive Attacks and Feints from the other by 1. I'm using a house rule in my campaign that doubles the to hit bonus of Evaluate, so I'll incorporate that in these musings, but it's easy enough for others to halve the bonuses.

Mickey is faster, so he goes first. He's smart enough not to rush in, however. He Steps and Evaluates.

Master Braelgar is far more experienced, so he's not going to be the first one to make any mistakes. He also Steps and Evaluates.

It's not a big circle, so they're in range now. Sir Michael always moves toward Master Braelgar, but he steps back or to the side to keep at Reach 2. They continue their circling for two more turns, however, as they each amass the maximum Evaluate bonus (+6 in my campaign).

On the turn after that, Sir Michael acts, because he's less experienced, has Bad Temper and would probably lose a Will-based highest combat skill roll modified by disadvantages to avoid striking the first blow. Actually, his player would have been doing well to avoid using Move and Attack to strike in the first turn. ;)

Mickey Steps and Feints. He's Feinting at skill 24+6 and Master Braelgar gets to resist with skill 28 (and reduce any margin of victory by 4, 1 for knowing the same styles and 3 for Evaluate).

Most likely outcome is a victory, but with a margin not enough to cause a defence penalty. A lucky roll might result in a small penalty. If we roll for them, I get 8 (success by 22) and 10 (success by 18). No penalty.

Braelgar sidesteps to open the range back to Reach 2 and Hooks at the leg of Sir Michael. He would roll at skill 28+6-2=32, but he uses Deceptive Attack to reduce this to effective skill 16 and give a -8 to Sir Michael's Active Defences (which Style Familiarity reduces to -7). He hits with 11.

Sir Michael has Parry 17 under ordinary circumstances and he's holding his longsword in a Defensive Grip. This means Parry 11. A roll of 14 is not enough. A hit and Master Braelgar causes CP for his Trained ST 22, with a +2 per die. That's 2d+4, if I am not mistaken, which becomes 8 CPs, which is -8 to ST and -4 to DX for actions involving Sir Michael's right leg. Edit: No, damn it, it means -4 to ST and -2 to DX to actions involving said leg. That also means at least a -2 to ST and -1 to DX to all actions and -4 ST and -2 DX to whole-body actions, including attacks made with his sword. I'm guessing that Dodge and resisting take-downs would sum the whole-body penalty and the leg penalty, for a total of -8 ST and -4 DX? Or does the leg penalty not matter for that purpose?

I'm guessing that Sir Michael will now want to establish his own grapple. For that, however, he needs to move 2 hexes or use All-Out Attack (Long), right? Because even an Armed Grapple has only Reach C.

Alternatively, he could grab the halberd at -2 to Wrestling skill and Master Braelgar could not Parry with it without giving up the grapple on Sir Michael, I think. At least, since a limb used for a grapple cannot be used to Parry, I assume that the same applies to a weapon used to grapple, but I couldn't find a reference to that effect anywhere.

Edit: This is actually super important. If you've achieved a grapple with your weapon at Reach 2 using Hook, what Active Defences can you use against attempts to grapple your weapon and/or Break Free from the grapple?

You are using your weapon to grapple, so it is presumably not available for Parry until you let go, as per Armed Grapple (MA p. 67) and Hook (p. 74). And the 'technical parry' or 'counter' rules on MA:TG p. 22 specify unarmed combat skill.

Is Dodge the only legal defence here?

Or should you be able to use a version of a 'technical parry' or 'counter' in this situation to defend with your weapon skill without letting go, for example by drawing the opponent out of position with your grapple, perhaps with the Parry level based on the Hook technique or the Armed Grapple technique?

Re: [Technical Grappling] Teach me using examples
 

I ran an example combat with TG of a fellow with a dueling halberd against one using a shield and warhammer*. In that, the halberd's pick ended up getting stuck in the shield (effectively an Armed Grapple) and the hammer guy tried to attack and break it. I ruled the halberdier could Parry by pulling unbalancing the guy's strike - it didn't work anyway, and were I not making use of some house rules to nerf muscle-based damage, that halberd would have run a very good chance of breaking (and that was just with ST 12).

In your case, I'd say Mikey, particularly with his high strength and long Reach (I ruled the hammer could only strike the metal-and-wood part of the halberd, while a greatsword could easily reach the just-wood portion), would probably be best served by striking at the halberd itself, leaving his opponent with a quarterstaff at best (probably more like a light club). Tournament rules might allow his opponent to disengage and grab a new halberd, resetting things (which is still in Mikey's favor).


*Actually, a Mace with a pick-head added.

Re: [Technical Grappling] Teach me using examples
 

That's far from unreasonable, but it's also explicitly forbidden by the rules. It's also not unreasonable to expect the fact that the mobility of the weapon is greatly compromised by the necessity to keep a grapple on a resisting foe would make it harder to prevent said foe from grabbing a hold of it.

My prefered solution would be to allow Parry as an Active Defence, but to penalise it for the need to retain the grapple. I think I'd prefer it if Defensive Grip didn't count, as you are now holding the weapon in an entirely different way, and I would base the Parry level either on Hook or Armed Grappling.

I'd probably only allow this against attempts to grab or Bind your weapon or grapple you, not against Break Free attempts (as that could be unfair and make high Hook unbeatable).

Tourney swords are blunted and weapons are surprisingly tough. Not that Mickey couldn't sever a wooden shaft with a proper sword, I guess, but I'm guessing he'd have trouble with a blunted tourney blade.

Aside from that, if he can strike the halberd, he can also Armed Grapple or Bind Weapon* it. That might be superior. Not to mention the fact that he can use Break Free.

In all cases, though, Master Braelgar will get an Active Defence. If only Dodge is allowed without giving up his grapple on Mickey, that means a defence of 9 or less, which is not likely to succeed. If he can roll Polearm-based Parry at no penalty and with the Defensive Grip bonus working normally, he's rolling against Parry 20 instead.

That's quite a difference.

*He has Skill Adaptation (Bind Weapon defaults to Two-Handed Sword), using the large cross-guard of typical examples.

Re: [Technical Grappling] Teach me using examples
 

It is explicitly allowed by the rules: The thing you do here to defend while you're grappling or being attacked by a grapple is a Hands-Free Parry (TG, p. 22-23). Adapt that or use it straight-up. "Parrying by yanking on the shield" or whatever is exactly the sort of below-resolution move that Hands-Free parries are designed to emulate.

Edit: I see you took the "unarmed" thing as meaning "only if grappling unarmed" rather than "you may only do this rolling against an unarmed skill." It's the latter. I recall Michael has Wrestling at a very high level, as well as Judo. Pick the most favorable accounting for what he's trying to do, and do a Hands-Free Parry based on that skill. The restriction proscribing "unarmed" is to prevent a single weapon skill from encompassing the entire body of knowledge that the unarmed skills grant. Armed skills are grappling skills, but they don't cover everything, and we put that in there to ensure that a properly made weapon fighter has a weapon skill and an unarmed skill of some sort.

Re: [Technical Grappling] Teach me using examples
 

On p. 22, it is explicit that you can only use unarmed combat skils for such Parries:

"If an opponent attacks you with a grappling
move (not a strike) against which you would be permitted
a parry, you may parry using any unarmed combat skill and
specify that this defense is a “technical parry” or a “counter”:
an attempt to thwart the attack by shifting position rather than
interposing hands."

I agree that this should be possible, but in that case, the italicised unarmed needs to be replaced with something along the lines of 'unarmed combat skill or applicable weapon skill when grappling with it'.

Unless you mean that when you have achieved an Armed Grapple or Hook with a weapon, you can use this rule to Parry, but not with the weapon skill, Hook or Armed Grapple; but only if you also know an unarmed skill. That actually seems reasonable to me and is a good reason for the inclusion of Wrestling in all those low-tech warrior builds. :)

Re: [Technical Grappling] Teach me using examples
 

Our replies crossed in the ether. Yes, it's this. You must derive your hands-free parry from an unarmed skill.

Re: [Technical Grappling] Teach me using examples
 

Cool. Master Braelgar's Wrestling Parry of 17 is terribly high, of course, but not as high as his Polearm Parry of 21.

If he can use it against attempts to Break Free too, Mickey is in a lot of trouble. And incidentally, Hook is a terrible, terrible thing to do to someone.

Re: [Technical Grappling] Teach me using examples
 

What about, as in this case, where you cannot reach your foe with your body (because you've got him grappled at Reach 2) and you are using a weapon that is Unbalanced?

Even if you are using an unarmed skill to execute the counter or technical parry, it still requires you to pull the foe out of position with the weapon you Hooked him with. And if that weapon was used to Attack last turn, it would ordinarily be unavailable for Parry.

An unarmed Parry would normally not be allowed, because the target of the opponent's attack is two yards away from you. Is it allowed in this case because you are using a weapon that extends your Reach? And if so, are you bound by the Unbalanced property of the weapon?

If it is not, then masters will usually be unable to Break Free from one another, as their Parries may be incredibly high and after achieving a grapple which penalises the other party by -4 or more, it is unlikely that he will be able to overcome the unpenalised Parry of the master with a grapple. This is fairly realistic in close combat, of course, but it seems odd that weapons using Hook achieve a grapple every bit as secure as a full Nelson (more so, really, because of the higher CP for weapons).

Breaking Free while grappling Armed
 

You need limbs to use Break Free and while those can be any limbs allowed not currently used to grapple with, Break Free doesn't default to applicable Melee Weapon skills, only DX and unarmed grappling skills.

What do you do when you are grappled by a Hook at Reach 2 and are holding a two-handed weapon. Can you use the weapon to Break Free, by leveraging the weapon using Hook away from you, or must you drop it in order to use Break Free?

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

As you mention in your edit, 8 CP is -4 to ST and DX on the Leg. Referred control to all other locations is 4 CP, and so -2 to ST and DX. Whole body penalty is the sum of head and torso referred controls, which is 4 (referred head) + 4 (referred torso) = 8 CP, or -4 to ST and DX for whole body. Note that the leg is only adjacent to the torso, the active CP from the sweep can only be spent on techniques affecting that leg or the torso, not arms, neck, or head, or the other leg.

Note that since his leg is hooked, Sir Michael has a grapple on the halberd already, albeit with 0 CP. If he is sufficiently stronger or more skilled, he could try to disarm his opponent through a break free directly, rather than trying to add a limb and then break free. Or add a limb as part of a rapid strike, given how high his Wrestling is.

Wrestling Trained ST 30 and Skill 25 vs TST 21 and Skill 22. Using just the leg in a gesture of supreme contempt, it is (0.6 x ST 20) = 18 +5 (DX+10 TST) = ST 23 -4 = 19, or 2d-1 CP.

He is likely to hit (Skill 25 +6 (Evaluate) -14 = Skill 17 and -7 Deceptive attack vs Wrestling Parry 14 -7 = 7), and has reasonable odds of reducing the hook to 0 CP, negating the hook. If he is less contemptuous and uses his own hook to hook Sir Braelgars arm, he would be developing CP of his own to spend on the QC, impose his own Active Control penalties, and make it MUCH harder for Sir Braeglar to increase his CP, as he would have active control on the arm, not just referred control from the leg (which will penalize any use of the 2-handed halberd).

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

Since Sir Michael's ST is 20, aren't DX penalties accumulated at half the rate of ST penalties ('Bigger and Stronger' p. 9)?

Nothing that allows Master Braelgar a Parry is likely to succeed. If not for Master Braelgar's ability to Parry at 17+ with his polearm even while using it to grapple, Sir Michael would like to grab the halberd using his longsword, either with Armed Grapple or Bind Weapon.

As it is, I don't think that's a realistic possibility. He'd attack at skill 19 or so and that means he could perform one attack at effective skill 11 with a -4 (becomes -3) barely reducing Master Braelgar's defence or he could make two attacks at 16, with neither one having the slightest chance of hitting without a critical.

Doesn't the -4 ST from the grapple affect this?

The Evaluate bonus has been used, for the unsuccessful Feint, so Mickey doesn't have that. He also has at least -2 DX and perhaps more, due to the CPs Master Braelgar has on his leg.

And Master Braelgar has Parry 22 with his halberd normally and Parry 18 with Wrestling, I think. At least that's what I calculate from skill 28 with Polearm, skill 26 with Staff and skill 24 with Wrestling; Combat Reflexes and Enhanced Parry 2 (all); as well as Grip and Form Mastery with the Halberd to parry with it in a Staff grip using Defensive Grip .

So Sir Michael is pretty much guaranteed not to hit with anything that allows a Parry, unless he uses one or more of Riposte, Feint and a high-value Deceptive Attack. None are especially feasible with his DX reduced against Master Braelgar's full Parry.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

Yeah, though it is still off the 8 CP total for Whole body. You had a much higher number going there.

Thats what the -4 in the line is, from the grapple. Or -2 given his ST 20+.
Didnt know about the Enhanced Parry or CR. That does change things. Cant parry with the polearm, but could parry with Wrestling (vs the break free attempt).

Given the polearm is in use, Sir Michaels best choice is probably to take a whack at the arm, trying for shock penalties and possibly a cripple. Polearm cant parry (in use for the hook) and wrestling cant either without dropping the polearm (needs two hands to parry). That leaves a dodge.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

I tend to omit Combat Reflexes from short-hand stats, assuming that any professional Hero will have it. I only note it if it is otherwise ambigious whether the character ought to have it.
I'm not sure how I feel about Hands-Free Parries being unpenalised vs. any grappling move, including Break Free. Break Free being an attack which allows an Active Defence is one of the biggest changes of Technical Grappling.

It seems to lead to counter-intuitive results, in that it lets weak-but-skilled characters whose concept is 'Can't Touch This' (i.e. have Enhanced Parry and Dodge) keep limpet-like grips on their foes, without the ST differential ever really coming into play, since the stronger character cannot counter-grapple or try to Break Free.

I think that I'd have been happier with a) Break Free attempts being harder to defend against than other attacks, since they are directed at the grapple, not the character and b) Hands-Free Grapples being penalised by -2, so that there really is a defensive drawback to 'forcing' a bad grapple instead of trying again for a better one (p. 19).

Yep. The way the rules are written, grabbing the polearm, jamming his longsword between it and himself or trying to win free of the hook are all grappling moves and therefore almost impossible. Mickey's optimal strategy is to strike and on the first playthrough I tried, he crippled Braelgar's right hand.

It is, however, really strange that the superior grappler of the two should have an incentive to avoid countering a grapple with grappling moves.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

Just use the whole body penalty. He's -4 to ST, -2 to DX, -1 to Parry, and no penalty to Dodge.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

Ah, but having a leg grappled means that he can't use it for stability and that Mcikey is therefore Unstable and any CPs spent influencing sweeps, takedowns and throws have double effect, right?

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

Yes. There's no question M is in a bad situation. He's being grappled by someone with Skill-28, trained ST equal or better to his foe, using a weapon designed to magnify ST.

These results aren't that surprising at that level. The stronger, more skilled fighter is . . . Winning. The weaker, less skilled fighter must get lucky.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

Yeah, but Mickey has ST +4 relative to Braelgar and Trained ST at +6 to +10 over him. He's a much better grappler, in particular much better at unarmed grappling.

But the rules strongly discourage him from countering Braelgar's Polearm Hook with any kind of grappling move of his own. He must strike at Braelgar, in order to avoid the Hands-Free Parry.

If he strikes, the odds are that he'll win and that using Hook without immediately following it up with a move that rendered Mickey unable to strike at him was a mistake for Braelgar.

If Mickey tries to respond in a realistic fashion, by grabbing at the weapon used to hook him, using his own weapon to try to lever it away or something similar, the odds shift heavily against him.

Basically, Hands-Free Parry against any grappling move, including Break Free, completely alters the balance of the fight.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

Im not sure this is Hands-Free Parry's fault so much as it is that the fighters involved are cinematic in lots of ways, and it has pushed this example into an edge case. +2 to all parries is a potent ability, and it is making it so that Sir Michael cant deceptive attack enough on a Break Free to get good odds of reducing CP. It is basically +4 to all skills for parrying purposes, and that is a pretty big bonus, basically making up for Sir Michael's better Wrestling skill.

Combat Reflexes of course just piles on the hurt here.

Really, it is perhaps incorrect to say Sir Michael is the more skilled fighter, because you have to include that bonus to parry in Sir Braelgar's "skill".

But Sir Michaels higher strength has helped him in one aspect: Without spending a turn to build up CP, Sir Braelgar would have had poor odds trying to do a raw Sweep (QC of Sweep vs TST of 30...). He _needed_ to do the hook first, and that is what Sir Michaels ST bought him, the opportunity to make a unparried strike.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

It might be. I haven't tried out other PCs in my campaign against plausible foes yet.

I still get the feeling that characters whose concept is that they are extremely hard to hit will now also have an awesome ability to retain an unopposed grapple against much stronger grapplers, who can't Break Free.

Especially since a lot of Heroes in my campaign use magic to get a DB of +1 to +5, which tends to make Dodge and Parries very high.

Pretty much all heroic warriors in fiction will have Combat Reflexes anyway and a lot of them will have Enhanced Parry 1-2 levels. In fact, these are explicitly allowed as realistic Advantages that can come with training and experience, so even in a campaign where there aren't cinematic supers, they'll appear. The rules have to account for that.

Master Braelgar is more skilled with his weapon, it is true. He's skill 28 and Enhanced Parry 2. Sir Michael has only skill 24 and Enhanced Parry 1. In so far as it's possible to call someone as burly as Braelgar 'weak', this is a classic 'weak-but-skilled vs. strong' fight.

But that's why I suggested beforehand that Mickey's prefered strategy had to be to get close and grapple, seeing that he has Wrestling 25 against Wrestling 24 and ST 20 vs. ST 16 (and in case it matters Brawling 25 vs. Brawling 22).

It only bought that because Master Braelgar was run by someone unfamiliar with the Technical Grappling rules and trying to learn them.

Now I know that Hook isn't worth doing against an opponent with a formiddable strike attack with enough Reach to attack you, unless you have another defence than the weapon you are using to Hook and/or you make the Hook as part of a Rapid Strike, Combination or Extra Attack that allows you to disable the opponent's striking capability before he takes advantage of your lack of a Parry.

Hook is awesome if your opponent is much better at grappling than striking, however, as he is very unlikely to be able to Break Free. Not only do you get a Parry vs. his attempt to do so, but you'll have loads of CP because you did +2/die CP and he's stuck doing a lot less even if he hits, because Break Free attempts cannot be made using weapons.

Is that right, by the way? Is it impossible to use a wepaon that you can Armed Grapple with to Break Free with against a grapple with a weapon against you?

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

Im pretty sure you can break free with a weapon using Armed Grappling, you just cant improve the Break Free technique from a weapon skill.

Another option for Sir Michael is an Escaping Parry, which he could base off his Wrestling Parry (at -2 for the technique). When Sir Braeglar attempts to use the CP he has gained, Sir Michael could use Escaping Parry to both stop the attempt (if it allows a parry to stop it) _and_ reduce CP at the same time.

A third, stranger option might be to try something fancy, like a forced posture change. The hook allows Sir Michael to do grappling moves himself, and any technique that is resolved as a QC will circumvent the Impossible Parry problem.

But truly, Sir Michael is up a crick. His skill is not high enough with anything he has to overcome his opponents defenses. That is just a bad situation to be in.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

Doug, I want a ruling on this! I'm personally inclined to allow it, but the rules-as-written don't seem to. Did playtesting reveal any pitfalls associated with it?

Granted, he could try that.

Yeah, I thought about that. But Mickey only has one leg involved in the grapple, so he'd be at Trained ST (20x0.6+10=22) instead of Trained ST 30 and with the -4 ST the grapple gives him, he'd probably lose to Master Braelgar's Trained ST 22.

It's only bad if he wants to use grappling. He's fine if he's content to strike, since Master Braelgar will have to defend with Dodge 9 against those, as even if he were prepared to release the Hook, his polarm is an Unbalanced weapon and can't Parry on the turn after it was used to attack.

Only because Hands-Free Parry somehow allows an unarmed Parry with an Unbalanced weapon that cannot otherwise be used to Parry, even at Reach 2 when no other body part can possibly be used to counter any grappling move, can Master Braelgar defend reliably against any grappling counter Mickey might try. He's helpless against anything which isn't defined as 'grappling' and thus doesn't fall under Hands-Free Parry.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

If you don't simply have your opponent shut out by them being unable to beat your active defenses, rather than trying to break free they could pile up CP against your weapon, which will quickly pose a problem to your ability to use the weapon against them.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

The fact that you gave Master Braelgar an incredibly brittle defense and then drove into a situation where he broke it himself doesn't seem like it should reflect on the expectations for how good he is at defense. Which is ridiculously so. The appearance of being vulnerable due to the ridiculous choice to take all his conventional parries out of play is the illusion.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

How do you pile up CP against a weapon without a Parry being allowed? It seems that all attacks that pile up CP are 'grappling' attacks and thus allow a Hands-Free Parry, even when no Parry is otherwise allowed.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

Fair enough, but I was trying to learn to use Technical Grappling, which kind of necessiated that I use, you know, grappling moves.

If I hadn't, Braelgar would simply have attacked a random hit location with a Defensive Attack swing. He'd have hit with a 16 and Mickey would have succeed at a Parry on an 11 (he failed against the Hook even though he was rolling against the same 11).

If he had failed, he'd have taken a hit to the... (roll 3d, 13) Left Leg, on the (roll 1d, 5) thigh. Since he's wearing light field plate, particularly light on the legs (DR 4 or so), that's painful. ST 16 Weapon Master does 2d+7 cr even on a Defensive Attack, so that's 16 damage, of which 12 go through (reduced to 4 HP of damage by Mickey's IT:DR).

Not a fight ender, but a fine start for Master Braelgar. However, not likely to teach me Technical Grappling.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

You can't. If you can't beat your opponent's parry, you can't do much of anything. But that's generally the case.

What you can get out of applying CP on the weapon is that you avoid the problem of trying to cancel out your opponent's leverage-boosted CP with your unaided CP.
My point is that I'm unsure this isn't a grossly unfair fight, considering the nigh-impervious parry.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

That it is.

True.

Mickey has Parry 17 with longsword and Wrestling, with Parry 18 with his longsword in a defensive grip. That's not far off Master Braelgar's Parry 18 with Wrestling and Parry 22 with his polearm in Defensive Staff Grip. Edit: Even with my house rules which allow Polearms in Staff grip to get a bonus to Parry (like Spears do), the breakpoint for +1 instead of +2 is before the 10-lbs. weight of the Dueling Halberd, so Braelgar's Parry is just 21, not 22.

Well, okay, if they both retain their distance, it is far off in terms of relative skill, but Master Braelgar is not meant to be a fair fight for him that way. He's far more skilled and this fight would only happen in game to make up for Mickey humiliating him in a jousting match. And I imagined that Mickey's only hope was to turn it into a grappling match, where his ST +4 and Trained ST +8 relative to Master Braelgar could prove decisive.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

If that's his only hope, he's in for it. You can't get a grapple without getting past an active defense, and as far as I can see he's just not good enough for that.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

PCs have Luck and even Extraordinary Luck, whereas NPCs are far less likely* to have such traits.

And it's not as if Mickey is supposed to have an all that good chance of winning a foot list duel against the greatest Master of Defence he knows about. Sir Michael is trained in the same style and well-regarded by most people who know about him, as a bit of a young prodigy, but, well, he's young. He's not the greatest living master yet.

Losing to Master Braelgar, but making a good showing in the attempt, would still be good for his Reputation.

*It's not forbidden, but it is assumed that only those whose concepts include a consistent run of luck will have it. Others have just occasionally spent CP for luck.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

Is that going to get him through the active defense? And if so, could he use it to grab the polearm with both hands? Because if he can make this into a 'who has more CP on the stick' contest...well, he might have a chance. And if he makes the master drop the polearm to get loose that's got to be a good showing.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

Mickey has Skill Adaptation (Bind Weapon defaults to Two-Handed Sword), so he could use that to grab the halberd. Better CP that way.

On the other hand, that's done at skill 21 before CP penalties and his Wrestling grab would be done at skill 23 before CP, so maybe he'd be better off dropping his sword.

What I think his player would do is take advantage of another house rule of mine, where if you Feint with a dangerous weapon and follow it up with an attack with a much less dangerous one, you get +2 for something like feinting with a sword and attacking with a dagger and a +4 for feinting with a sword, dropping it and attacking with bare hands. He'd Rapid Strike, 2 attacks at -3 per. First he Feints an attack at Master Braelgar's head with his Two-Handed Sword and when he steps back to try to avoid it, Mickey tries to grab the halberd with Wrestling.

Using Luck, he wins the Feint with enough to give a -6 penalty to Master Braelgar's active defences and then he makes his grab at skill 12, which gives a further -4 (not reduced for Style Familiarity, as the now-unarmed Mickey can use Battlerager Rasslin', a style Master Braelgar is not familiar with).

Master Braelgar has to sidestep on his retreat to avoid stepping out of the circle, so he does not get a Retreat bonus to his Hands-Free Parry. That means it's at 8 or less. He spends a FP, but still fails with a 12.

Mickey grapples the halberd and rolls 2d+2 CP for his Trained ST of 26, reduced by the grapple. That gets him 11 CP.

Now things are quite different for Master Braelgar, of course. Luck to the rescue!

That's probably a victory, as Sir Michael is a better unarmed fighter than Master Braelgar and even if they drew rondels, their skill there is about equal and the live hand used for grappling would favour Mickey.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

It's a minor point, but I think he can do a little better. After all, he's already got one leg involved in the grapple. So he uses 1.1*ST rather that 1*ST when he grapples the halberd, which seems like it should give him Trained ST 28.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

So it does. That's 14 CPs, then.

The natural response to that from Master Braelgar is to spend some of his CPs from the grapple on Mickey's leg to Sweep him. They count double for that purpose.

Since Braelgar is suffering -7 to ST and DX, I guess he'll want to spend them all, to ensure victory. Because that will give him +16, though, he can accept a -3 for Rapid Strike, planning to follow up his Sweep with some brutal battering of his now prone foe.

Sweep 15 (25-7-3) vs. Trained ST 28 (30-4 and a +2 for grappling encumbrance modifier), with a +16 bonus to Braelgar for the spent CP. Well, I rolled a 6-6-6 for Braeelgar, so I guess he loses. Rolls a 12 for effect, which means that he needs a Ready before he can use his weapon again. Ok, so Mickey wins that fight.

Assuming for the sake of actually testing the rules that a lucky critical failure didn't end the fight and rerolling, Braelgar wins the Quick Contest, with the margin of victory being 7. Mickey is knocked down and loses his grapple on the halberd, as he cannot mantain it while lying prone. Mickey succeeds at Wrestling-based Breakfall, even at -7, and lands on his back, not his belly.

Now no one is grappling anyone. Master Braelgar has another attack in store, however, at -3 for Rapid Strike. That means effective skill 25, with a -5 for Face, reduced by 2 points for Combat at Different Levels. Ends up 22, use Deceptive Attack to reduce that down to 14 to give a -4 (reduced to -3) to Mickey's Active Defences. His Brawling Parry is thus 14-3 or 11, with success by 3 or less meaning that he takes damage to the parrying limb.

Braelgar hits with a swing, using the hammer that's instead of a spike on a tourney halberd. Mickey spends a FP for a +2 to his Brawling Parry, but only manages to get his left arm in the way. ST 16 Weapon Master with a hammer head on a 10-lbs halberd is 2d+10 cr or 16 damage, of which 10 get through DR, reduced to 3 HP for Mickey's Injury Tolerance: Damage Reduction.

Our Hero is in trouble, but even with a -1 Shock Penalty (HP over 20 divides the Shock), he makes an Acrobatics-based Instant Stand (which he has at 16) and finishes up with a Fast-Draw of his 14" long unsharpened rondel, which is a baton that uses Shortsword skill, into a Defensive Grip. Mickey's Shortsword skill is 23, one lower than his Two-Handed Sword skill, but it's better than being unarmed.

Of course, he's still facing an unwounded absolute master with a halberd while wielding a 14" long baton. His 3 HP wound to the left arm is not enough to trouble him much, though, as he has 25 HP and the wounding threshold for the arm is thus 9 HP.

But now Master Braelgar will avoid anything even smelling like a grapple while striving to keep Reach at 2, so Mickey can't harm him. And since Mickey won't have Luck to burn, it's likely that he'll succeed in this and give Mickey sound whacks to any and all exposed limbs until Mickey cries uncle.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

Mickey should spend his 14 CP to help his QC and/or hurt his opponents. CP can be spent on either side of a QC. That should shift this from an autoloss for Sir Michael to nearly autowin for him.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

Can you spend CP when it's not your turn and you are making a Quick Contest defensively?

If so, that changes everything!

See, that's why I have to go through the book for practice fights, with forumites commenting on what I do wrong.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

If you like it, allow it. You overestimate the amount and variety of fight-based playtesting that occurred. And even had it, the odds of superhero level enweaponed fighters using the Hook maneuver getting the specific test is as slim as you'd imagine.

You seem to be interpreting the rules as presented in fairly normal ways, so the problem isn't really the rules. The more-skilled fighter is wielding a weapon successfully to neutralize the advantages of a stronger but less skilled fighter . . . which sounds like "what weapons are built to do" to me.

You seem to want the grappled fighter to have more options. OK, I can work with you on that, but that doesn't make it a rules problem.

So:

1) You can only use a hands-free parry with an unarmed skill if you could legitimately reach someone with an attack of your own with a single step. So if you are a normal human, your grappling hands-free parry can only be done from Reach C or 1.

2) Alternately, Hands-Free parries can only be done against an attacker within your own hex.

3) If Hooking is too awesome, you can rule that despite being a long weapon, you really aren't magnifying your ST with it - it's not a lever, it's an extension. Deny the +2 per die for this purpose.

4) Rule that hooking is awesome at keeping a foe from backing up, but you get a bonus if you close the distance. If you attack to break free and step to the guy hooking you, your foe suffers -3 to parry (sort of an anti-retreat).

5) Binding only gives one-handed CP, right? So treat a hook as equivalent as a weapon bind. One-handed trained ST, but +2 per die.

6) Use Bucking Bronco (p. 26) to throw off CP automatically based on the difference in ST. Your trained ST difference is 6-8, yes? So you can automatically remove a few points per second that way, and also leverage a Brute Parry (p. 26, same box) to really leverage your ST. If your Trained ST is really 30, your Brute Parry without any CP is 18 (!). Even with -4 to ST and using Trained ST 26 or so, you're looking at a ST-based parry of 14.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

You may always spend CP, if you have them, in any Contest in which you are a participant.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

Oh, indeed.

Then Mickey shan't fall at all. :)

No doubt he'll do something exceedingly unpleasant to Master Braelgar instead.

Let's say he spends 8 of his 14 CPs on winning the Sweep QC and has a grapple on the halberd worth 6 CP.

While I don't find anything in the rules to say that while you have a weapon grappled, you are allowed to use Wrestling to Parry any attack with that weapon, not just grappling moves, I'd consider it silly if it wasn't so. That's pretty much the only viable defence in the real world to being shot or stabbed with a weapon that you are grabbing, so it has to be allowed for realistic moves taught in self-defence against weapons to be possible at all, assuming enough skill and the right Attributes and Advantages, not to mention lack of Disadvantages.

So, allowing that, Mickey will use his Wrestling Parry 17 to defend against the skill 22 halberd attack. Braelgar will use his Armed Grapple-based Polearm skill to Break Free, because it makes sense to me that you can do that when your weapon is being grappled. I could be convinced that you should use an unarmed grappling skill instead, if there is a good reason for it, but you should definitely get the leverage bonus for using a weapon in the grapple.

He DAs his skill down to 12, which puts Mickey's Parry at a cool 13. We get a hit and a parry.

Now, Doug, what do you recommend Sir Michael do, to show off his awesomeness and introduce me to more fiddly rules from Technical Grappling?

Re: [Technical Grappling] Teach me using examples
 

One quick thing about the relative ST levels of the combatants during the grapple (but before Sir Michael can bring his own weapon into play).


Braegar is Skill-28, and Trained ST 23 with his halberd, but with +2 per die bonus CP due to weapon leverage, the fair comparison is to an effective Trained ST of about 36 or 37 when all is said and done.

So the multiplication factor of that weapon is HUGE, which is why you get the result of his being able to go up against a guy with Trained ST (wrestling) of 26 or so and still make Sir M look silly.

If Sir M can bring his weapon into play, that x1.6 ST factor boosts his own TST 30 to a whopping 48 equivalent, and now we're talking.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

I'm certain that when your weapon is grappled, you ought to be able to use Break Free with that weapon to get out of it. I could be persuaded to use Armed Grapple or even an unarmed combat skill as the basis for the roll to hit and Trained ST, but the damage roll should definitely get a bonus for using a weapon, as long as yours is still Ready in your hand.

I also think that whenever it seems feasible to introduce a weapon between you the foe grappling you and you would be able to Armed Grapple him with the weapon, you ought to be able to use it to aid in a Break Free attempt. I don't mind if the roll to hit and the Trained ST are figured from Armed Grapple or even an unarmed grappling skill, but you ought to get the leverage bonus to damage.

This is why I need to take part in all playtests. :)

Perhaps. I'm starting to see that in a fight between people with those skill levels, Master Braelgar really needs to mix his Hook with a finishing move that puts Mickey down, so he's not battered while he can't defend himself with the polearm.

I want counter-grappling to be a viable option for Sir Michael, who is, after all, the superior grappler, not clearly and completely inferior to ignoring grappling and striking until the other party is down.

I think that either one of those should apply, yes. Which one, I leave up to you.

I'm torn. It seems fair, in that Hook is certainly not as effective as using your weapon to grapple in both hands, as well as your body and torso at Reach C. On the other hand, would it make Hook unusable for pulling shields off-center in combat between normal ST fighters?

Like it, love it, using it.

Bind Weapon gets one-handed Trained ST, yes, but I assumed upon reading it that this was due to the fact that all the weapons that are listed as capable of Bind Weapon are one-handed weapons.

If it's not just that, but the intent of the rules is that using a two-handed weapon for Bind Weapon provides no benefit over using a one-handed weapon, then Hook and Bind Weapon should probably be treated the same. On one hand, I can see that a grapple using Hook at a distance would be weaker than grappling someone with your body and your weapon. On the other, it ought to matter whether you are using a one-handed fencing weapon or a two-handed bill, because you certainly can exert more force with the bill.

That's an AoA, which means that even if you got rid of the grapple, you'd have lost the fight as soon as the opponent's turn rolls around again. Superheroic warriors do not AoA each other unless they are positive that they can finish the other party in that turn. Doing otherwise is tantamount to turning around, bending over, dropping trou' and exposing frilly underwear with glitzy letters saying '____ me, please!'

Re: [Technical Grappling] Teach me using examples
 

Just so check my math, I've got Master Braelgar with ST 16, DX 12, IQ 12, HT 14; Wrestling DX+12 and DX+16 skill with a Polearm. Wrestling, which uses the Fast progression, comes to +5 at DX+12 and therefore T-ST 21 for Braelgar. Since he is a Weapon Master and therefore uses the Average progression for all weapons (and Fast for sticks), his weapon skill yields a +6 to his Trained ST. Coupled with ST 16, that comes to T-ST 22. Why did you get T-ST 23?

Sir Michael has ST 20, DX 14, IQ 12, HT 15; Wrestling DX+11 and Two-Handed Sword DX+10. Since his ST is 20, he doubles the Training Bonus from the table. He gets +5, doubled to +10, for Wrestling, which uses the Fast progression. For his two-handed sword, he gets +4, doubled to +8, because it uses the Average progression (he's a Weapon Master too).

Braelgar is actually a more skilled wrestler than Mickey, but that's because he has more fighting experience in general (in my campaign represented by 6 levels of Experienced Talent, which gives a bonus to all combat skills), not because he spent more points on Wrestling (where Mickey's 28 points actually have his 24 points beat). Mickey's higher DX means that he has a higher skill level with Wrestling and his much higher ST means that his Trained ST unarmed is 8 levels higher and with a weapon it is 6 levels higher.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

I think it's definitely correct for the guy holding the polearm to be able to do some kind of 'technical parry' to resist grapples to it, and I don't think a U parry stat should preempt that.

Arguably the technical parry should use weapon skill, but that'll just make this situation uglier!

I mean, isn't the alternative that grappling a weapon that's attached to you is totally free to do? Though on the flip side it would also make it impossible to parry against somebody's break free attempt with the weapon.

Though you could still dodge. What does dodging a break free even look like?

Re: [Technical Grappling] Teach me using examples
 

I was going from memory and winging it. I'm impressed I was only off by one.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

There is a great deal to be said for it applying on the turn after you use Hook, as you could not execute any other kind of Parry during that turn with the weapon, even if you let go of the Hook. Basically, on the turn you establish a Hook, your foe can take advantage of the fact that your weapon is moving in a very predictable (if not that advantageous to him) way. If you want to avoid that, use a Defensive Attack to Hook someone.

After that, however, I agree that even an U weapon should not be out-of-position to defend with a grappling skill if it was used to grapple.

If a weapon that has grappled someone ought to be able to drag him out of position to Parry a grab of the weapon, the same logic can apply so that it ought to be able to drag him out of position so that he'll miss with a strike.

Which, admittedly, was the way that I ran GURPS before Technical Grappling came out, but at that time, 'wasting' an attack to make a Hook or an Armed Grapple needed every boost it could get.

Totally free to do is not how it should work, I agree. On the other hand, a weapon that is attached to you is heavily restricted in its movements and the usual consequence of a restricted range of movement is a penalty to Active Defences.

Grapples of limbs or weapons that are already grappling you ought, in my personal experience and consumed media, be easier than grappling a limb or weapon that's free to move around at will.

And attacking a grapple, with Break Free, ought to be easier than attacking a third party or the person grappling you.

My first instinct when I saw that Break Free allowed an Active Defence was to look for the penalty to that Active Defence, because it seemed incredible that there was none.

Eyeballing things, my intuition says that I ought to give a -2 to defend against a grapple aimed at a limb or weapon that's being used to grapple the attacker, as you can't really shift that limb or weapon around all that much. I'd either give that same penalty or even a -3, the same as when using a Shield to Block using only the guige (a Hands-Free Block), to attempts to defend against a Break Free attempt.

This will encourage Break Free or a counter-grapple as viable a response to grappling, instead of making it just as hard to achieve as any other attack in that situation.

You move your body or weapon out of the way sufficiently so that the force exerted to counter your grapple is wasted.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

Probably a lot like a Hands-Free Parry. :-)

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

One thing you could do is penalize the parry as if those CP being inflicted were being inflicted on you and your weapon. Make grapples REALLY mutual, in a way.

They are. You don't suffer hit location penalties when attacking to break free.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

No, we don't want to penalise a good grapple. That would really change the dynamic of grappling and not in a good way.

What I want to do is to make it risky to 'force' a bad grapple, when you've given up the mobility of your weapon or limb by committing it to a grapple, but you've not established sufficient control to make your foe unlikely to be able to grapple you effectively back.

In other words, discourage ineffective 0 to 1 CP (against normal foes, 0-3 CP or higher against more skilled foes) grapples, like grabbing someone's shirt lapels without controlling him, as that just makes it easier for your foe to establish a really effective grapple on the limbs (or weapon) you are presenting to him.

Fair enough, but that's only 1 point of difference and it means, for example, that it's easier to grapple the torso of someone who has a hafted weapon hooked around the back of your knee than it is to grab the haft of said weapon.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

It makes no sense to Break Free before the hook is in place (that's your Active Defense against the hook attempt), and after it's in place it isn't swinging like that.
Drag out of position? Why would you frame it that way? You don't need to manipulate your attacker to perform a technical parry.
Remember that a good wrestler is not unlikely to have Escaping Parry bought up and may have Technique Mastery for Break Free. That gives them a considerable advantage in forcing the opponent off.

Break Free also never takes a hit location penalty, though a torso grapple doesn't either.

A weapon you are grappled with is always grabbed at a lower penalty than any weapon that you aren't.

It is true, as best I can tell, that it is no easier to grab an arm that is grappling you than an arm that is free.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

It means surrendering the ability to properly Retreat:
"You may only retreat on a defense if, accounting for the
effects of posture (see the Posture Table, p. B551) and treating your foe’s weight as encumbrance, you don’t fall below Move 1. In any case you only gain +1 for retreating while grappled – even with Judo, Karate, or fencing weapons." (p23)

And of course your opponent can use a low-CP grapple in many of the same ways you can, since grapples are mutual.

I'm curious what an offensive Judo Throw through your opponent's grasp on your shirt lapels would look like, but it seems valid by the book...

EDIT: Perhaps not, as the offensive Judo Throw specifies an 'offensive' grapple. However, it seems you're good to use your shirt lapels to Force Posture Change on your assailant.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

Polearms that can Hook are marked with U specifically for the Hook attack mode. If that is supposed to mean something, they presumably can't Parry at all after a Hook attempt, successful or not.

At Reach 2, you cannot touch your opponent with anything other than your Reach 2 weapon, which is, according to the rules in MA and TG, not available for a Parry while you are using it to grapple or Hook. Furthermore, you can't use the normal defence against an attack on your weapon, which is moving it out of position, because while you want to retain the Hook, it must stay in position, hooking the back of the knee of your foe. So the only justification that I can see for a 'counter' or 'technical parry', using the rules under Hands-Free Parry, is for you to drag your foe off balance or out of position so that he can't grab the weapon.

Only if the wrestler is dedicated to staying out of grapples. It generally doesn't pay to have more than 2-3 Techniques, rather than just raise the skill in general and if you have offensive Techniques, you might be wasting points taking these as well, instead of a higher general skill level.

Mickey doesn't have any specific Wrestling techniques, apart from Arm Lock at skill+4, i.e. 29.

Indeed.

True and for a Reach 2 weapon, that lower penalty is -2 instead of -3. This while you can grab the arm holding the weapon at -1 or the torso at 0, assuming you can Step into range.

Dozens of akido or jujutsu 'self-defence' moves that start with 'first, grab my hand/arm/clothing' argue differently. When someone has a grip, but not that much effective control, on you, it is much easier to grapple the hand he's using to grip you than it is to grapple his leg, for example.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

What is your ST for a wrestling move executed from a mutual grapple where you are using no hands and no legs, like the aformentioned CP 0 shirt lapel grapple?

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

That stat vastly predates Technical Grappling, and I don't see any reason to think it was set with technical parries in a grapple in mind.
Your movement is constrained, but you are in control of the shaft. You don't need to strike your opponent's hands away or move your weapon out of reach to make it hard to grab hold.
No, being good at shedding enemy CP is very desirable when you intend to be in grapples, where you are likely to get CP put on you.

And while the usual efficiency note applies to Break Free, Escaping Parry is a defensive technique, which makes the math a bit different. If you are one of those grapplers who the Technique description states "will often attempt every parry using this technique", you'd be mad to not drop the 3 points.
Grappling the leg from that position would likely require a posture change, which would be seriously problematic even with a weak grapple on you.

How does getting the arm compare to counter-grappling their torso?

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

Force Posture Change doesn't say to use Grip ST, so I wouldn't think it matters even if you are doing it ST-based rather than using the DX/skill-based Technique.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

Are you sure that you can execute Moves after a Grapple with the ST-based stat without reference to the ST of the limbs that you are using to grapple with?

Because that seems... off.

Edit: On p. 34, there is the rule that for all Techniques using one-hand to grapple reduces the ST used in Contests. I presume that this is a generic rule that when you roll your ST as part of a Contest called for by a Technique, you do as based on your Grip ST.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

Yeah, that looks right.

No problem if you roll the skill rather than Trained ST, though.

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

That is a bit odd. What other Actions After a Grapple can one perform without limbs at full DX-based skill, according to the RAW?

Re: Mickey vs. Braelgar
 

Fair enough. On the other hand, Technical Grappling doesn't note any change in that stat. And a Parry with an unarmed skill, Hands-Free or not, is not noted as being effective beyond the Reach of your unarmed attacks.

The rules as written don't appear to address the issue of having an armed grapple on someone who is beyond your Reach otherwise.

Perhaps the cleanest way would be to impose a penalty to Hands-Free Parries for every hex of Reach beyond that of your unarmed attacks. Either -1 or -2 per hex. I'd favour the latter.

It seems fair that Hands-Free Parries would be at full skill only when you can use your whole body effectively to perform counters. Being limited to only those counters possible through an extended weapon used to grapple should limit your facility.

How do you do that without moving the hook from the hookee? You can't turn the shaft and you can't move the weapon head anywhere that your hookee is not standing, because if you do, you'll lose your grip on the back of his knee.

I'm not saying that it should be impossible to do it, but the sharp constraints on your freedom of movement and number of possible counters ought to impose a penalty, just like any other situation that restricts the defensive options available does.

Yes, but why are you likely to get CP put on you? By the RAW, there is no special reason to counter-grapple (subject to a Hands-Free Parry by the grappler) instead of striking the grappler (does not allow a Parry if the grappler has no free arm).

Because high-skill fighters will have Parries that are usually massively higher than their Dodge, that's a huge difference in defensive effectiveness.

Before TG, I interpreted some line in MA so that you could perform Hands-Free Parries with a grappling skill, not any unarmed one, and that it worked against grapples and strikes made by the grapplee both. In retrospect, there probably ought to have been a basic penalty to that roll, but with a cap of only a -4 penalty inflicted on the subject of your grapple, grappling (as opposed to locks and throws, which were great) was otherwise so ineffective that I didn't feel the need.

Now, I'd probably allow Hands-Free Parries against strikes as well as grapples, but unless the strikes are made by the grappled limb or weapon, I'd impose a penalty. Probably -2 if you have his neck, head or torso grappled, -3 for Hands-Free Parrying a strike through a grapple on another limb.

I'd also consider that all Active Defences made against attacks (whether strikes or grapples) on limbs or weapons you are currently using to grapple suffer a -2 penalty unless you are willing to let go.

That's true, I suppose. A note for Sir Michael's player, then, that he'll do well to think about picking up Escaping Parry when next he has points to spend on grappling.

Do the rules forbid grappling legs while standing? If they do, I expect that a Crouch will do.

About equal in difficulty, but grappling their grappling arm has the advantage that the most effective defences against it require the opponent to let go of the grapple.

Bind Weapon in TG and MA
 

Now, where I was in the example, Sir Michael had established a grapple on the halberd Master Braelgar is using. He didn't go for a Bind Weapon, largely because in my campaign the player would have wanted to take advantage of a houserule for Feint that rewards Feinting with a weapon that the opponent is likely to be the most wary of and attacking with a less effective attack.

If he had used Bind Weapon, though, would the -2 to DX to both parties that is a feature of the rules in MA apply or do the new rules in TG overrule MA in this case?

I ask because the Bind Weapon mechanism are completely different in TG, so it would not be unreasonable if nothing from the MA description applied any more. On the other hand, I could see Bind Weapon applying a DX penalty to both parties easily enough, even under the new rules.

Re: Bind Weapon in TG and MA
 

Overruled. The Control Point mechanic and the variable DX and ST penalties they impart to the victim take over that function.

We did not consider reverse-penalties (to answer the next question). It would be a reasonable house rule. Say, impart referred control penalties to user, plus of course you have to maintain the grapple, so limb uses are restricted to "hang on," and "do grappling stuff."

Re: Bind Weapon in TG and MA
 

Ah, very good.

My next question was actually going to be whether the reference to one-handed Grip ST in the Bind Weapon technique is due to all weapons noted in the technique as capable of it being one-handed or whether it is a deliberate limitation, so that you don't gain any additional leverage from adding an extra hand on the weapon.

I personally don't see the need for such a limitation, as I don't think that there is anything inherent about Bind Weapon that makes it harder to apply full two-handed ST while performing it with a properly-equipped two-handed spear than it would be to apply full two-handed ST on an armed Hook, Sweep, Disarm or Judo Throw (used with Skill Adaptation).

And there is plenty of incentive to make the Bind Weapon one-handed if you can, in that it gives you a free hand to do nasty stuff to your foe while he is momentarily hindered in using his weapon. So Bind Weapon will still mostly be a one-handed fencing move, except maybe for the odd longsword fighter who might use it with Skill Adaptation as a prelude to a Disarm.

Personally, I'd feel disinclined to have any kind of malus connected to getting a good grapple, as opposed to a bad one. Having a high CP while your opponent has a low one seems to me to reflect a situation where you have the maximum freedom of movement and action possible in a grapple. It seems much fairer to give a flat penalty to stuff that ought to be harder while grappling, so that if your CP is high enough you more than make up for it relative to your foe, than to make a very successful grapple take you out of position too.

Re: [Technical Grappling] Teach me using examples
 

I asked about the two-handed bind weapon question (I put some tines on my unnatural pollaxe), and the answer I got from Doug then was "yes, use two-handed ST". Presumably, use the ST for all the limbs you have on the weapon, as your base ST for bind weapon.

Re: [Technical Grappling] Teach me using examples
 

Ok, that's nice.

Then Mickey will use Bind Weapon like crazy, especially to defend.

Incidentally, MA had defensive Bind Weapon attempts take an attack, made after the Parry. Is TG deliberately removing the neccessity for that attack or is this just an example of older rules retaining their force unless otherwise specified? In other words, does Bind Weapon really allow a full Control Point grapple on a weapon as a Parry based on skill-3, that can be improved to full skill for 4 points through raising a non-cinematic technique to skill+0?

Apart from being non-cinematic, it's more-or-less in line with Grabbing Parry, I guess. Still, it's a bit odd that defensive Bind Weapon (an Active Defence, no extra drawbacks) and offensive Bind Weapon (uses up an attack) are equally good. Well, not equally good, even, in that defensive Bind Weapon doesn't allow an Active Defence against it...