Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

That's right. A new year, a new thread about a revised fourth edition, a new fifth edition, or some kind of modular supplement, or even funding the technology to implant all GURPS rules directly into our brains! I'd like to take the moment to highlight some ideas that I think are great, but also some points to take into consideration.

I think all of these ideas together would be neat. I really do think that GURPS does call for some kind of revision or update in a way. To make that happen, I think that GURPS would have to step away from both books and pdfs. Like mentioned several times, there could be some kind of database. And I really love the above idea of being able to essentially piece together your own book out of it. I know that's technically possible to do right now, but formatting a copy-paste of the specific rules you want takes too long and is ultimately extremely messy. Furthermore, there are some things that certainly call for an update. A lot of key rules are added in various Pyramid issues. I'm not suggesting we steal Pyramid's thunder. I'm suggesting something like... You would be going through the database looking for a rule and it would say where that rule is available. There are so many cool things out there, but, honestly, the biggest problem for me is not knowing where to look. Then, even if I did have an unlimited budget, I could spend hours upon hours picking through chapters and chapters of material to find a single rule which would have been useful to have in the Basic Set.

Furthermore, I suggest these things because I love GURPS, and I want others to love it too. I really do think that having a database with possible preset rulesets (think GURPS Lite and a GURPS Not-Quite-As-Lite) would be a great way to get people to shut up about how complicated GURPS is (including myself). I'd love to be able to easily and conveniently compile all of the info that I need across various books into a single campaign-specific rulebook.

How to make it work? How to price something like that? Well, I'm not entirely sure. I might be smart, but I don't exactly have the brains for that. I'm an abstract thinker. Now I'd love to see some serious discussion and ideas. I might be freshly an adult, but if someone hired me to get working on this, you can bet your best dice that I would try.

Here's to another year of GURPS, and I wish you all the best new year!

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

I've kinda of already remade GURPS with so many house-rules I have.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

I'm also rather fond of physical books, although the low, low cost of PDF's certainly makes me like them quite a bit as well.

The idea of a "Build your own GURPS!" product would be awesome, although I'd imagine it would be very difficult to pull off. I'd imagine the ideal situation would be to have a Basic Set that has a lot of the options/rules/equipment already in it, then release modules - comparable to all the additional books we have now, so you'd have a Low Tech Module, High Tech Module, Tactical Shooting Module, etc. - that contained additional options/rules/equipment. Possibly make it possible for users to also build modules (for houserules).

A solution might be to have each Module actually have a physical book, for those who prefer that. Purchasing the book would be more expensive than the module (printing costs and all that), but perhaps could come with the module for free.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

1000% agree with that. I already doing it - When I start a new campaign, I print the pages i'll need for THAT specific campaign with rules and setting and all of what I know i'll use. When the campaign's over, I bind the characters sheet, the campaign and the rule, making a "homemade setting book" and I burn all the files i've use with maptool.

The problem is sometime, the rule is only on a box and I must print ALL the page for only 2 or 3 lines. All the Gurps book is on PDF format. I love physical book but with Gurps, I don't have this - they give me PDF. So I print it.

Having a software where I can "pick" the complete rule and be able to print it in a clear and beautiful format... without cut and paste.. would be EPIC!

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

When Kromm made his posting about moving to new technology, I started to work out the requirements for an electronic publishing format that could do the job. You want:

To be able to integrate new and optional bits of rules, at least to the extent of adding cross-references into existing rules, and preferably merging them in-line. That says goodbye to page-based layout and PDF.

Have things conditionally present or not, according to user-selectable options, sets of which form things like "The DF ruleset" or "The Lite ruleset plus firearms rules and Old West equipment lists." Again, PDF is history at this point.

Have indexes, tables of contents and so on formed automatically.

Have ways of handing illustrations and sophisticated tables.

Have either a viewing app, or a tool that extracts a ruleset into a viewing format.

Have an editing app so that people can write their own house rules into their collection, and share them with each other.

Works on Windows, Mac, Linus, iOS, and Android, for today's market.

Really robust and reliable, and very cheap or free for the end-user parts.

Now, none of this is impossible, but I could not find anything in existence that could do the job. There are things that could do part of it, and it's possible to form ideas of how to go about it. If such software existed, it would have a lot of uses apart from RPGs - but RPGs are a pretty demanding usage case.

If someone wants to start writing it (there's no reason to assume SJG would be interested, but it would probably find other uses) PM me and you're welcome to my technical notes. It'll be a big job: it frankly looks suitable for someone who wants to start a free software project on the scale of Python or Perl. 2020 is a plausible target date for it to be ready for serious usage.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

A few more things:

Mustn't make translation into different languages intrinsically harder.

Mustn't use technology with patent or export-control issues, and mustn't require that all the content in it is free.

Needs to support optional encryption for some or all content for "unlocking", which will probably mean that it can be used for DRM'd content.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

You're using one right now: a web server which builds pages from a database. It could be an actual server on the web, or there are database and server packages which can be rolled into apps and software for specific platforms.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

A few problems with that:

It doesn't give you the organisation scheme: that has to be devised, and is not trivial.

Supporting a lot of different databases and servers on different platforms and getting them to behave consistently is not trivial either.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

Being able to apply computation to GURPS would have the potential to ease a lot of the preparation aspects of the game as currently being discussed in the "Why I'm Leaving GURPS thread". Any kind of (N)PC creation would benefit as well as many of the rules that lean towards simulation (e.g. collision damage, throwing, falling, etc.)

A generic system that could be tailored on-the-fly to meet your campaign genre would be very awesome. Done right - revolutionary even. Unfortunately, it's not a cheap thing to do. The requirement to actually print out a subset of custom rules is interesting but means that there's the whole additional requirement of doing print based layouts on top of screens for digital presentation (which I think is more of a must have going forward than even print).

I would pay for both a one-off rules compilation and/or a subscription to a service that could do chargen, allow crowd sourcing of a bestiary, and get an integrated Pyramid (i.e. new rules from articles introduced could be available for compilation).

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

If your willing to pay an upfront client fee most database programs can doo all this and many pretty easily. I use one for myself that holds the house rules and campaign details. Stat blocks and descriptions for monsters, spell rules, cosmology and race info.
I do not port most of the rules in there but it would be easy to do that.
This is for personal use of course.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

Any structured data (which I believe is what we're discussing) will necessarily require you to define its structure. That is a problem to be addressed, but its not an objection to using a database-server structure specifically. Any solution you come up with will require that. But organizing material into books/chapters/sections from a database is a really basic web problem (little different than how this website organizes material into forums/subforums/thread/posts), even with optional rules to be chosen to be included or not.

Modern database and server roll-your-own packages are mostly all cross-platform already, which is the point of their existence. The only thing that will differ across platforms will be the user interface, and that's only if you don't use browsers. I haven't researched them recently but I'm sure there are packages to generate pdfs from database content as well. There's a lot of stuff out there.

Converting a book to a structured-data version would be the equivalent of layout work -- specifying headings, content flow, etc.

I'm a few years out of practice, but setting up a web server to serve this content wouldn't take even a small web company very long. They'd probably spend more time on appearance and user interface than on the database back-end, but then I was a database guy so I may be overestimating the difficulty of the other work based on how hard it would be for me. :)

But honestly, I have no idea if this would be a good thing for GURPS.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

I like how this took off! I was worried when no one had replied as u quickly as I had hoped. The ideas are certainly interesting and more good points are being made, but here's my question...

What's SJGames stance on Kickstarter? I think many of us might pitch in something, and it could bring more publicity to a smaller market.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

I believe that they have said that they wouldn't use KS for any project where the work wasn't already done. They did use it for OGRE, which was a pretty big deal for the company, disrupting all kinds of other projects (like GURPS).

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

Damn... That's kind of a shame. But the work is already "done". It just needs to be organized, right? Sure, it might be semantics, but it's kind of true. Everything is there, it would just be an amazing new way to present material.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

No, it's not "done". It would involve a complete redesign of their publication strategy and their "trade dress." It would involve a lot of re-editing of all the GRUPS products and a overturn of all their publishing processes. It would also be a scheme that, at present, has a lot of potential for failure, because it doesn't address the desires of a lot of buyers for hardcopy and would involve abandoning the FLGS market. And if it's to run on tablets without a full-time internet connection, it gets harder.

It is too soon to be trying something like this; it's not too soon to think about what would be involved, but SJG will want to decide in private about what to do.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

I think this has been the best point so far. I'd really like to see where they would take this. If they tried, then they could pull it off. If I had the skills, resources, and time then I would tackle it myself.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

Quted for truth.
It is certainly technically possible. I could do it in just a few months part time.
I am sure others could as well and with various platforms, most of which would work on any OS. However the issues with publishing, liscening and more would be huge and actually far more work. All for what is probably a really low volume and niche product at this time.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

I really love this Idea. I imagine something like this a lot. Other thing I would love would be a GURPS-based PC game. It would be awesome, as GURPS rules are much better and simpler than the rules used in most games.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

One of the counterarguments that always comes up is "I don't want to have to rely on technology" and I think it's a bit of a straw man. Just because you can go to the website and put together a custom campaign book with just the rules you want to use doesn't mean you'd have to. The original "all in one" version would still be available, and many of us who use the custom guides would still print them out and bind them ourselves.

More than anything, I would like to see a consolidation of every "official" rule, optional or not, together where they interact. Martial Arts interleaved appropriately into the Combat chapter; Powers in Advantages; Magic and Thaumatology (et al) into the Magic chapter; *-Tech into the Equipment and Campaigns chapters. This would likely lead to separate books for each chapter instead, but I'd be okay with that - and I wouldn't even demand a new distribution paradigm for it.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

Honestly, having searchable PDFs already comes pretty close to this for me, so I wouldn't want to buy a whole new system. A multi-pdf index would be useful though.

I have extra options because I have Adobe Acrobat. For example, I put Characters and Campaigns together into a single pdf, and whenever a new article about imbuements comes out in Pyramid, I add a copy of that article to my copy of PU1 so I've got them all together.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

My desire for this would be to be able to mouse over a page reference in any rulebook, and it go to an owned copy of the referenced work, and bring up in a box the rule in question.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

Personally, I think everyone is underestimating how much work is involved. Maybe I'm not reading the OP intentions correctly, but it's a lot of work to organize all relevant GURPS materials, design the data model(s), create user interfaces, code, test (and test again), and create redundant server infrastructure capable of hosting in perpetuity the system. There's also security and ongoing system administration. You'll need coding, designers, QA, and probably at least one manager. I'm sure many of us can imagine how we'd build it as forum pontification, but the devil is in the details. Oh I didn't even mention the process of nailing down requirements. And there's all that product management needed to take something like this to market above and beyond the technical budget. Plus the game designers needed to do the editing. I'm sure the longer I sit here the more roles need to be involved.

I've done 13+ years of full stack development, but mostly have been focused on user interface design/dev over the last few years. You can get a lot of mileage with a web based interface with the libraries/frameworks available now. You can even plan for disconnected operation if the architecture is done right.

I would start by focusing on data modeling character generation, skills, advantages, disadvantages and having all that in place first as it's the core around which everything else is built. It also solves a large pain point for players. I'd have full PC character sheets with options for condensing for NPCs and Monsters.

Organizing the slew of one off look up tables is a less convenient task. I'd hate to think they'd all have to be modeled individually, but that's what it may come down to if the goal is to be able to get customization. I admit I don't have a good off-the-top-of-head plan for non-tabular rules. Would they just be stored as blocks of text? It also brings up the question of whether the [printed] output needs to have a sense of narrative to it or whether that would he handled more traditionally in a kind of GURPS lite supplement so that the system only has to worry about rules customization.

The most interesting problem in data modeling is the codification of the rules by campaign requirements. Even assuming you have all the various look up tables, skills, and rules stored, what is the process and expected results for a GM to come in and use this system? If you were to think about this as a form, what would be the form fields? Would they have to know about the GURPS universe of books or could they really start by identifying their campaign as "Modern horror, TL9, in space, with high tech gear" (say I want to do Colonial Space Marines). Being able to answer this question of how the user is expected to interact with the system and what results they can expect to get back is the heart of the matter. So far I'm not totally understanding it. Without this answer you have a lot of rules and some char gen utilities - useful, but not entirely what I think we're talking about.

Ugh. There's the transformation of all the data from the database(s) to printable stuff. The real way to do it is probably going to be DB->XML->XSLT->PDF. The faster way I'd do it would be to make a print.css and try and re-use the web based output for friendly-enough print output for the first pass. However, in the pit of my stomach I know that's a challenge since screen and print mechanics and layout are really 2 different worlds. For better or worse, I've never dealt much with print except for some typical corporate reporting. Ton of testing here if the focus is on getting high quality prints.

Then there's the user experience/interface. I'm biased, but I think a lot would ride on this if we even want to remotely shed the image that "GURPS is hard". Since it's a product that may not have ever been created before there'll be work in the designing. Then there's the execution. Even though modern browsers are getting a lot better, we've added mobile now, and even just keeping to desktops there's still cross-browser compatibility issues. This can all be beat down with time and effort and isn't strikingly hard with the right people involved. It is labour beyond coming up with a colour scheme and slapping some logos on.

I doubt any individual or even a small company could really whip this together in short order without real financials behind the project. But I'd use it if someone wants to prove me wrong!

OTOH, this would be an awesome open source project. :)

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

This is a good start, but what about references from older material to newer? There are no references, even where entirely appropriate, to Martial Arts in the Campaigns book - how could there be, after all - but that's where I'd want them. I'd want grappling to point me to your work. I'd want maneuvers to include references to Defensive Attacks. Perks to point to style perks. That sort of thing.

ETA: I never thought I'd be defending it, but this was the huge benefit of the online services associated with D&D 4E. You paid your monthly membership, you got access to the complete rules, including all updates, up to the minute in the character generator, monster/encounter generator and the like. I would want something like this for the actual game play rules in GURPS - where you constantly have access to the latest and greatest from the entire universe of GURPS rules. But I'm not sure such a thing could survive, not with the third party writer model that SJG relies upon.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

That's a tough one, but would be doable with a revenue stream like the one you have below. I wonder if you could simply (?) download a "references file," like updating your virus scan definitions, which would then insert the proper references into all the books you have.

I don't know. The key would obviously be "system line earns enough revenue to support someone's time to do the updates." As long as the long tail and extra supplements keep the cash cow milking or growing, it's a net win for the company.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

Personally, this is something I've though about a lot. I do have my preferred solution, and it's a Tiddlywiki, that is, a wiki that lives in a single HTML file, and loads in all standards conforming browsers. It even has mechanisms user generated content and for importing content from other Tiddlywikis.

The nice thing is that it's like a non-linear notebook. I personally feel that such a structure is ideal for ongoing reading of technical works (maybe not for the initial read, but for sure for making sure you find item XYX fast and in a rational way).

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

I have no experience with Tiddlywiki at all, but do greatly admire the work done on the Fate SRD (http://fate-srd.com) under Drupal. That's a brilliant bit of site configuration to allow for a really user-friendly reading experience with some limited interactivity.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

The GURPS Database opens with the modules that the User has installed. There is a rich filter system that allows the User to filter through the modules using tags. Some examples of the tags would be advantages, disadvantages, combat, equipment, and book names. Furthermore, the tags could go much more in depth; the equipment filter could be split up into melee and ranged, and even further into swords, spears, axes, and the like. So, the opening of the Database would lead to the main modules page which would show the various books that the User has installed. They could just be listed by name, but the User could just drag them around into the order that the User would like them to be in. Clicking on a book module will open up a grid of modules in the order that they appear in the PDF for said book. On the left or right side of the Database, there is a tab that opens up an empty pane where modules can be dragged and dropped into order in the two-column setup of the standard format. There are also rich formatting tools for being able to set the modules up like a full PDF with chapters, an index, an appendix, and the like. After being set up, the User can save the file as a PDF. There is also a system to create custom modules from format templates for advantages, rules, equipment, creatures, tables, and the like. This system would not require it to be always-online. The books and modules could be downloaded from an online database or the modules could be included with the PDFs, or there could be a way to convert the PDFs into modules (which would make the initial work of creating the database of files significantly easier). For a free program (forum-maintained), it would either have to convert PDFs or it would only contain a way to create custom modules. From there, the PDF could easily be printed off for a phsycial copy. Then another complex idea comes into play, the idea of being able to find and update and replace modules. As an example, let us say that the speed/range table had to be revised, and it was, but it was tucked away in some Pyramid article. The speed/range table module would show all of the books that it is listed in as well as the books where it has received an upgrade. Another example would be the grappling rules. The grappling rules module from the Basic Set could show that it was expanded on in Martial Arts as well as Technical Grappling. This would allow old references to be linked with newer ones.

Adding all of this may seem extremely redundant, but it's all about organization and presentation. I like to be super organized and not have to flip through various books or search through a bunch of PDFs to find that one single rule from that one PDF that I hardly ever use. It could allow me to create rulebooks and templates for personal campaigns. It could help me find things that I would like to see in articles or books that have those rules hidden away. No, I don't exactly know how to go about this. No, I don't know if SJGames would go for this. But, yes, I have a strong feeling that this could pioneer GURPS into a new era. Like I said before, if I had the time and the resources and the skills to do this myself, then I would. Maybe I will spend some more time learning how to code, but I already have my GURPS Magic to GURPS RPM Conversion to be working on (I've been so lazy).

Hopefully someone will pick this idea up and run with it! I'm not even a good artist so this is the best that I can explain my thoughts!

Thanks.

EDIT: Also, to address another issue, it could just be for PC/Mac. It's probably well enough that you can export PDFs which can be viewed on other platforms.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

I think the only reasonable option at this time is essentially a database driven index. Rather then include the rules, traits, monsters and what not it just lists the titles, rule names, costs and a few basic things you can find in the free PDFs they already make available.
Also a UI form for adding House rules and such, as well as flagging campagn specific items to filter things.

This I think fits within the SJG guidelines and might get permission to publish. A content inclusive item however would not and would require some major overhead and liscening discussions.
Of course making the index is about as much work as making it so it includes contact :( The advantage there though is it gets you a working model if the company decides to go that route at some future time.
However would enough people be interested in that to justify it?

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

Actually, I bet they could make money on a free rules index where you could type "Grappling" and get a list of every PDF related to the topic from pyramid to Technical Grappling and everything in between. It would expose products more rapidly and widely because you could quickly find the supplement with the rules you needed.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

The GURPS Character Assistant is practically already an index. I'm wanting exactly what I talked. I don't mean to sound snooty our pouty, but there's a reason that I'm not just asking for an index.

Or maybe I lied. That functionality would be nice, but I do think an index is still a little short-handed.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

I realize it is not all that you want. I would like something more as well and in fact built part of it for my own use. Makes keeping my world better organized then pen and paper.
However what your asking for is really not trivial. The technical aspects aside the publishing, liscneing and other aspects are really huge and SJG is unlikely to want to deal with those issues. If they were ready then they already would have. But your talking about something that would be very resource intensive. the index would be a prototype that could later be expanded if it was agreed and that other issues dealt with.
Propose or get someone to propose what you want but I dont see it happening at this time. the Index however seems likely to pass approval and if it is liked then maybe an expansion would be more seriously considered.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

Hmm... I definitely see your point. You could certainly build it as an index. If that goes well, then the whole interface could be built. This organization thing is just my biggest frustration with GURPS. I use quite a few books/articles, but only really a few things from each book, but copy-pasting really makes things ugly. I might just have to try again, I guess. GURPS can be so cluttered at times.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

Some thoughts.

I like GURPS 4e pdf's. I own some hard copies, but I never use them anymore, I have all the books on my laptop and on my kindle fire, when I play I reference them there, everything is searchable :) The pdf format has really worked well for me.

If this model is working for SJG, then I say go with it. I've been loving it, and I see no reason for that end of it to change.

I (as I'm guessing most people here do), modify the rules to suite my tastes, I do this mostly in my head, I don't really need a program to do it for me. Not sure I would trust a program to do it for me.

Regarding building technological tools to help role playing in gurps...

As people have been talking, two models/examples have been swimming in my head to emulate, both utilize communities to their best advantage. I think GURPS has a strong community and developing software that leverages the community itself makes more sense to me.

mobile device app stores utilize the collective development tallent of all the programmers out there who want to develop for mobile platforms by giving them a place to publish their stuff and even some monetary incentive. The published work is then rated by the consumers directly.

The developers in GURPS are writers/authors not programmers, does an app store like paradigm even make sense??? not sure, but interesting. Put out a website where people can write supplements/adventures/world settings/etc, these materials would be tied to their accounts (making it kinda a social website thing like github), and everyone who consumes those materials could vote on the quality. It would have the benefity of collecting all such works in a single location so that the community could get at those resources easily. The writer's incentive to post there are two fold, to be read in the first place, and you could setup a payment process not unlike what exists in the app stores. It would be like e23 except completely organic in how the content get's developed. You could post the existing cannon material on such a service.

Second thought, wiki's, the community itself is allowed to curate the "cannon". So again, you build a service that supports this model. The hard part here is, the basic set, and supplements aren't free, so maybe you would have to be a valid purchaser of the product to be able to use this service.

At any rate, the idea is, you publish all the cannon material much as it is now, then you let the community change it. Obviously there would have to be some trusted curating going on, but the idea is, you let the cannon rules become a living document that changes constantly over time. The cannon of this year might be very different from the cannon 2 or 3 years from now.

Example, a change I would propose on a system like this would be dumping the feint maneuver alltogether in favor of simply using deceptive attack. Obviously the community would have something to say about that, but if enough people feel the way I do, feinting would just go away at some point, replaced entirely by newer mechanics that evolved. You never have a "5th" edition, only the "current" edition.

Don't know, radical ideas, don't know if they are worth anything, fun to think about though.

Hat's off to SJG, thankyou for making a wonderful system.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

Yes. I'd also desire the ability to do this from a character sheet.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

Yeah, non-linear is the way I'm going (or going to go) with Sagatafl too. Linear makes less and less sense to me every year.

In order to make sure that most pertinent content is read, one can create index documents that are collections of hyperlinks to sub-documents, e.g. an index document for character creation, an index document for creating a fighter/warrior type character, an index document for creating a magic-using character, and index document for movmenet and other physical actions, an index document for combat and injuries and recovery and medical skills, and index document for xp awards and character advancement. And so forth.

One problem with wikis, at least the multi-page (e.g. MediaWiki, as in Wikipedia) kind that I'm familiar with, is lag when you click on a hyperlink. Usability expert Jacob Nielsen has said that users experience a computer response as instant when it occurs in less than 1/10 second. Clicking on a hyperlink in a wiki and getting the new page to load is slower than that.

I don't know how the everything-on-one-page wiki thing works, and I find it hard to visualize, but that may be one way forward for a GURPS 5th Edition. Alternatively, all the content should be downloaded onto the user's tablet, smartphone or computer in advance (taking up probably no more than a few hundred MB, or maybe a dozen GB if you want the high-rez illustrations) and then automatically checked for updates every so often.

That'd be the ideal solution, anyway.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

Much as I would like to see a GURPS database and believe it to be technically feasible, I don't see how SJGames could build a sustainable business-model around this.

For the database to be useful to hardcore fans like us, it would have to include ALL the 4e rules-content from ALL existing and future books/PDFs, ideally including Pyramid. IMO, the only feasible payment model for this would be a long-term subscription, to prevent people signing up for least cost and copying all the content.

So how would SJG price access, viz their existing business of printed books, PDFs and the Pyramid subscription? If the cost for this DB-subscription is low, it will cannibalize the sales of GURPS books and PDFs - which are only marginally profitable as is, and mostly due to long-tail economics of the back catalog. Inversely, if the subscription is too expensive, it won't attract enough users (especially new ones) to pay for its cost.

Again, I'd love for SJG to try and succeed at this, but how?

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

Actually that is the easy part, at least technically.
Each publication would be a module and encrypted. You buy whatever modules you want and there added to your copy of the database. This ccan be done offline or as an online server. However it means additional publication efforts and I am not sure there would be enough profit to justify the extra man hours.
But it is not a hard process, just one that would take some extra man hours.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

When I posted the above, I wasn't thinking in terms of github's service, but that would be cool too.

IE, if I write an adventure, I get feedback from people through discussion threads tied to my account, I can choose to integrate their suggestions or not at my pleasure since I'm the author. Somebody else though can fork my adventure, make their own changes in their own account and when they are done send a pull request to me. I can either accept the pull request and pull his/her changes back into my original, or let the two drift apart and let the community decide which they prefer.

Also solves the problem of abandonment.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

So how do I register the dozen or so hardcover books that I bought in a shop?

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

I did mention that the publication and licensing was the hardest part right?
I think to take advantage of a new system like that we would have to buy new issues. That is the thing that seems to get overlooked when these talks keep coming up. People see the tech side and even if they do not know how they understand it can be done. However they overlook the business side which is far more complicated.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

If we could have a serious requirements doc, I'd be willing to do the programming, if we could get some funding. Sorry, but my wife and I are living on a fixed income. :(

However, blasphemous as this may be, I don't think we should start with GURPS until we can demonstrate that the technology works. We should start with a game like GURPS to show that it can handle the problems, but unlike enough that it won't have licensing problems.

Or perhaps even some totally unrelated content. I don't know.

I have been a user-interface programmer, a database programmer, and a systems analyst. The only reason I'm not doing that now is that my wife became ill and required a full-time caregiver. I have a decent amount of time, just not in convenient 8 hour blocks like Penn State liked.

I do think that we should use crowd-sourcing, but we'd need to find a kick-ass application for this software.

What does everybody think?

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

Again, I think this would be really cool to have but ...

... yeah, I think having to re-buy content for the DB would matter to the tens of thousands of people who bought the hardcovers.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

Do we even know that GURPS Characters and GURPS Campaigns has sold 20k physical copies each?

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

No, we don't, actually. Online sales is some 2000+, but one would hope there's more people who bought the printed edition.

Funny thought, that. Do GURPS players globally only number in the lower thousands?

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

Some data on that would be reelly nice. If somebody starts a thread on this in another forum, please drop a note (and link to it) in this thread.

From about a decade ago, it was said that D&D (and what few derivatives existed at that time) was by far the biggest game, with Storyteller (Vampire and stuff, including AFAIK Exalted and Adventure!-and-so-forth) being by far the second biggest, and systems like GURPS and Hero System and a few others being (presumably including Ars Magica) noteworthy for their ability to stay afloat and support a stream of new and updated supplement books.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

Right now, stores can participate in a program called Bits and Mortar that allows anyone who purchases a covered hard copy of a RPG or supplement from the store to download the PDF version. It would likely harness a very similar system.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

Maybe it could work if it were launched as the core publishing platform for the next iteration of the GURPS ruleset.

This next edition would have to be redesigned and marketed with modularity as the central tenet. The resulting product might consist of a very bare-bones "GURPS modern" as the core, and expandable with pay-for content adding depth (i.e. skill specializations and techniques, detailed combat rules ...) and breadth (new rules and equipment by genre, i.e. hard sci-fi, magic ...).

Do away with printed books altogether: Purchase of a PDF would unlock the respective rules in the DB; subscribers can print off custom-rulesets for their campaigns from the DB. Add a number of subscription models from supporter" (includes, say, a subscription for Pyramid) to "all you can eat" for hardcore fans and there might be a business model in there somewhere.

I think this is what WotC had in mind with 4e. It's quite bold, and could fail on a number of fronts, business-wise and technologically. Still, a nice dream.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

In mind with D&D 4th Edition, or with D&D 5th Edition?

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

So...

Buying online gives you access to download an encrypted database file. This encrypted file is personalised to your account in some manner, so that you can't just mix and match from files "given" to you by friends.

These database files are parsed by a free front end application (versions for Windows, Apple, and Linux probably need to be developed).

Physical copies of the books contain a sealed pocket that allows the person to add the encrypted database file to their online account for downloading. The physical book needs to be sold in such a way that this pocket can;'t be opened until after purchase (to avoid devaluing the physical book). That probably means everything has to be shrink-wrapped.

It could work, but it'd prevent casual in-store book-browsing.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

Doubts about such an initiative stem not from technology (suitable tech exists) or manpower (we have talented staff), but from market size. This sort of thing would be expensive to implement, and so would only make sense if sales of the revamped distribution were as close to guaranteed as sales can get. Among other things, that would mean gamers rebuying old content in the new model . . . we couldn't pay for such extensive work exclusively with revenues earned on new product going forward. In short, demand would have to precede the project. Doing the work and hoping that it draws a big audience willing to pay for it would be an unacceptable risk.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

So how do we increase market size, Dr. Kromm? ;) We just need some famous or to-be-famous (that's me!) to start playing GURPS. People would eat it right up!

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

We increase it with other media; books (novels are good ones), television (comics, series, movies...), games (video games, cards, dices... sjgames are good in this category!)

The problem is it takes money to makes money... Can it be possible to expend the Gurps line with what SJgames already have? I could easely see a "Infinite Worlds Munchkins" card set who can be grab the munchkin fan to be curious about the gurps line (or Yrth Munchkin...). One step at a time

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

Increasing an RPG's market size is a grail quest. If I had found the grail, I'd be a high-paid marketing genius instead of a struggling editor/writer. I'm skeptical of any theory that originates with dedicated fans on a forum devoted to discussing RPGs, because – despite being such a person myself – I must concede that such folk have already made their choices and don't constitute the majority of the potential market. There's probably some way to reach non-gamers who believe that pen-and-paper RPGs are lame, but I'm not sure what that would be.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

I'm not really a fan of the process/medium, but isn't this exactly what Kickstarter and IndieGoGo and the like are about?

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

The success of a Kickstarter project doesn't necessarily tell you much about the future sales prospects of a project. SJG seem to want GURPS to be a long-term proposition, so that they can preserve their editorial expertise by continuing to employ the relevant staff.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

Things like Discworld, maybe getting some 'celebrities' who actually like the system or setting to post their games to youtube or a podcast etc (that could even be done by some fans rather than SJ Games)

That's the best ideas that I have read on these forums.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

I don't know. I will offer one annecdote. I recently watched the community episode dealing with Dungeons and Dragons with my Girl Friend. At the end of it she asked if that was more or less accurately what the game was, and I said yes. I can tell you I would never have brought it up with her otherwise.

I don't have a game she can join, but when we are talking about probably less than 10,000 regular GURPS players getting one or 2 new ones is a significant success.

Another thing which I think has already been alluded to by someone else is getting more GURPS authors via Pyramid.

If people are writing articles they are showing them to friends even if only to help edit them. Once again we are talking here about 1s and 2s of new players.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

Would the risk be mitigated somewhat, if several companies got together for the project? Perhaps SJ Games with GURPS, teaming up with Atlas Games with their Ars Magica?

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

The trouble is the extra resources devoted to publishing. And selling that material, some of which to people who already have ti. How would adding toher companies and different products help that?

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

The problem is given the intrinsic vagaries of the hobby I don't think you could have any idea what the uptake of this service would be until you put it in place.

More over if this was primarily going to be a tool for encouraging new players, because you'd be the first in the industry (an industry who's potential customers aren't reliant on you, so don't or won't need this), you'd have to pretty much make it free or next to free.

The problem GURPS has with this is there is no GURPS IP that can cross media.

What's a GURPS novel? A GURPS Television series. You could do GURPS/Munchkin tie ins, but ultimately they are munchkin products not GURPS.

GURPS as an IP is a games system that supports a wide range of genres and is pretty heavily weighted towards detail. Your problem is that means nothing to anyone who is not already a role player, and it could be a negative as much as a positive for those who can attach meaning to that sentence. The features and distinctive qualities of GURPS are fundamentally tied to the roleplaying process and so don't really translate outside of roleplaying.

You could theoretically have IW or Banestorm cross media products, but to be frank even if you got to that point there nothing intrinsically GURPS about either of them, beyond if you google both you get the link.

I.e. I can play IW or Banestorm with out playing GURPS (and while that's true in theory of any setting and its system, by its very nature the genericness of GURPS means they are less tied together than most).

Moreover if you look at the current munchkin products that tie into other specific IP it's munchkin conan and munchkin cthulhu. Both instances of Munchkin benefiting from other established IP's not the other way round.

There have been tie in projects that were driven by RPG IP but not many have been successful. The most successful that I can think of were the TSR novels from the 80's & 90's and those were mainly driven by the initial success of the Dragonlance trilogy.

Given the size of the RPG world in relation to the wider one, it tends to be the other way round, outside IP drive RPGs products.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

We don't remember of D&D for their rules set - we remember it for their settings. I play Call of Cthulhu not for the system but for the setting (they adapt the system for the setting... Gurps do it differently).

It was a good move to grab something popular and adapt it but making a conversion of another RPG is not as popular. Why i'll play Gurps Vampire when I can play Vampire directly?

Having some exclusivity (Star Trek, Hellboy or Vorkosigan) is good but something's missing. Publicity? Visibility? Popularity of the setting?

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

Not sure about (A)D&D, but then it was the daddy for a while and produced plenty of non setting (i.e system only) specific stuff. There's also the conflicting view points about producing 5+ official settings. Are you providing something for everyone or competing with yourself (or of course a mix of both).

The problem with officially converting RPG settings to your own system is that it requires roleplayers who like Company A's setting but Company B's system enough to buy product. Again your target audience is automatically a sub division of a wider audience.

That said I'd say the GURPS WOD conversions were actually pretty successful* because there was pretty clear difference between the systems in question so the appeal was accordingly broad.

WW:Mage was notoriously incoherent, and a classic example of a fantastic setting being held back by its system.

*In that I think they were good, adding something to the hobby, I have no idea how well they sold.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

Or maybe truly ready to play stuff. See the last pages of the thread Why I've stepped away from GURPS? for that topic...

I can't say for all those bookss, but for the first edition of Discworld, there is no ready to play scenario. And useful generic NPCs with full stats are neither given. So, before playing [B]Discworld, a newcomer will have quite a lot of work to do... Which is not really encouraging.

Other games, by other publishers, almost always give one ready to play adventure with their Basic Set. At minimum.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

As a tangent, for me Discworld and GURPS are about as incongruous a pairing as I can imagine in the Hobby.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

The catch: The pen-and-paper RPG hobby is old enough that the majority of participants have chosen their poison . . . it has "frozen out" into sects and cliques with strong preferences. Existing gamers who've decided against generic or point-build or roll-under or d6-based systems are unlikely to revisit those decisions. Thus, we need to grab people entering the hobby – folks who have yet to develop such prejudices. And if we're going to do that, we want GURPS to be the entry point; letting people come to GURPS via another system is far from optimal, as a gamer's first system tends to color all future expectations, and the most likely first system is the one with the biggest marketing budget, which is nothing like GURPS.

However, I agree that media properties aren't the way to go for a generic system. High-profile fiction is a great selling point for a dedicated game built around it, with all of its mechanics, terminology, and examples customized to that property. Do that with a generic system, though, and you don't seem generic . . . and while you can customize it to a specific property each time, that won't provide a general tool kit. We're in the business of selling the tool kit. When there are no takers for tool kits, GURPS will have run its course, as providing the tools is and has always been its mission.

My own feeling is that in our current age, the way to raise the system's profile is to make it more computer-friendly. I know that a lot of old-time GURPS fans would hate to see qualitative rules, judgment calls, and other "fuzzy" concepts go away. However, those things are in many ways what's holding back the game. Though common complaints about GURPS cite its mathematical complexity, the essence of those complaints lurks elsewhere, in the fact that the customer must do so much work . . . Tools are fine, but these tools are hand tools, and not amenable to industrial automation.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

This gets at what I said in my previous post; namely, that we're selling the tools. SJ created a generic, universal system because he was tired of single-genre, single-setting games tied to particular sets of assumptions; which is to say, SJ created a tool kit, and that's what SJ Games wants to sell. In the past, we've adapted IPs in order to showcase how flexible GURPS is, but those adaptations have never enjoyed the success of the core system. And with good reason: The adaptations are "close enough," not optimal; showcasing the rules has a fidelity cost for the setting, and setting fans won't stay with a game that doesn't get their favorite IP right to within almost absurdly tight tolerances.

As far as game engines go, I don't see another generic engine being better or worse than GURPS for Pratchett's work. In many ways, GURPS is a good match, as it's capable of the mad, kitchen-sink, gonzo stuff that shows up on the Disc. It doesn't force you to choose a genre first, which many other generic engines do; this is crucial, as Discworld isn't pure fantasy, but a weird mix of genres up to and including steampunk of late. The two also have a similar sense of humor (indeed, this helps to explain why SJ and Pterry get along!).

Can GURPS ideally showcase Discworld without the tools showing? That is a challenge! It's why we're publishing the Discworld Roleplaying Game and not GURPS Discworld, and why the upcoming edition is truly integrated and self-contained, not just a worldbook with a copy of GURPS Lite in the back. That approach was a lot of work for us, though, and it remains to be seen whether the expense and trouble, plus the licensing costs, will pay off. If the new edition is a success and brings new players to GURPS, we'll have a direction in which to move.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

I agree.

I think the problem will always be for a generic version of pre-existing setting/system you are relying on the existence of two customer groups.

Group one: Those who are already predisposed to like the generic system over the specific and who's first choice will be the generic.

Group two: Those who didn't like the specific setting's system enough to try an alternative system for the setting they did like.

They probably exists but they are by their nature again sub divisions of the hobby (i.e automatically limiting potential sales).

Additionally Group one can already use the generic system without a setting specific generic book using the specific's fluff (it's a generic system) how much of factor this will be will of course depend on how quickly the generic version is available after the original. That said even my limited knowledge of IP control and licensing tells me not many are keen to allow rivals soon after release of their own new product, they like to enjoy a significant period of being the only published option in the market.

And group two will have to not only want the generic version, they'll have to want it enough to re purchase material (you'll need both to compare). More over if they are new to the generic, they'll need to buy the generic system as well (if it's not included the 2nd parties setting book).

Ah, sorry I didn't realise it's a stand alone game, I thought it was "gurps: disc world".

To answer the now redundant question, it's not that I think GURPS can't do discworld, it's that I think as a system it would be overkill. We know that GURPS can be light and fluffy, but I think the reality is in general the pre-existing GURPS fanbase, and therefore GURPS played "in the wild' so to speak is in relative terms pretty heavy and crunchy! More over GURPS has established a reputation as such in the wider hobby for a couple of decades.

Now maybe there's an opportunity in re branding to be had here led by a lighter Disc world system as a potential introduction to the fact that GURPS doesn't have to be full on tactical crunch despite the reputation it enjoys/suffers.

Maybe some kind of Discworld system - GURPS conversion.

And if nothing else a successful game is a successful game!

I have my own questions about the choice of discworld anyway (don't get me wrong I'm a fan from CoM) but this probably isn't the place for that.

Cheers TD

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

My experience has been that if I invite non-rpg people to play, 75% stick with it, at least until the end of a campaign. If I had more time, I could run another campaign, for sure. We can be insular, as a community, but people will try this out. I could have just gotten my old group of friends from college to play online via roll20 or MapTool, I guess, but the key part of the experience, for me, is the face-to-face interaction with friends.

I will feel like I have succeeded in growing the hobby when one of my players runs a game. I look at this as something of a missionary minigame, and I hope to get to just play one day.

Of course, I make my preference for GURPS plain, and encourage people to buy the stuff they want to use. I know that a few members of my group have picked up GCA, and I know that a few have bought Characters and Campaigns. One guy bought DF 12. It has always been my experience that one dude owns most of the books, but others will buy stuff, too, if it interests them specifically, and then it can snowball.

A nice thing about some sort of central app is that if there is a benefit to having it for each person, and we can get new players in, the market will grow. The ideal, from my perspective, would be an app that is nice to have, but not completely necessary for each player.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

I keep seeing this mentioned as an issue but I have evidence that it's not an insurmountable one.

GURPS already has switches and dials that must be set in advance and which guide or even predetermine the outcomes of many (most?) of the judgement calls or "fuzzy" concepts. It's just that a program may require many more of them, may need them to be set or reset on the fly and may require oversight by a real, live person.

Armin has already automated character creation. I (and others) have automated combat and physical feats (in my case to the point where combats that previously took upwards of three hours now take 20 to 30 minutes). Granted, both of those examples are the easy ones.

Apply the Unix philosophy to handling rules and things become much, much easier.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

Philomath, could you provide pointers to your combat automation? Looking at some heavy combat in my next session, and I'd love to streamline it. The faster I can move combat, the faster it flows into the story and stops breaking suspension of disbelief.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

This is true. As fans, we regularly encounter non-fans pointing at the likes of GURPS Vehicles and exclaiming, "See? See? Too much math! Cube roots! Ugh!" Our knee-jerk response is often something akin to, "The system is modular, so simply ignore the parts you dislike," or, "The math isn't as bad as you think." However, those replies miss an important point, which is that many – probably most – gamers see the very existence of such products as a warning sign, and don't want to associate with gamers who (1) don't mind or actually desire that much math and/or complexity, and (2) attempt to justify or defend it. The first implies a gaming culture alien to their own; the second comes across as stridency or brainwashing.

Many people here will be unhappy to read this next bit coming from the person who has been the system's custodian for the past 19 years, but I can word things very simply: Reaching a larger market depends on reducing the perceived complexity. That doesn't just mean automating the complicated parts or making them optional; that means not having them in the first place, for anyone, so there's no danger of running into a group or a situation where they ambush someone who dislikes them. However, existing fans drawn to the game's current structure have their interests at heart (namely, having access to optional complexity) rather than the publisher's bottom line (which would be better served by setting the intricacy dial about three or four notches lower).

As both a GURPS fan and an employee of said publisher, you can imagine how conflicted that leaves me.

The answer is simple: Steve Jackson is (1) a fan of Discworld and an admirer of Pratchett, (2) the designer and publisher of GURPS, and (3) the owner of SJ Games. As the one who owns the game and the company that publishes it, he has every right to choose a setting that he, personally, enjoys. End of discussion, really.

Doubtless I wasn't completely clear in my assertions: In 2014, people don't want "oversight by a real, live person." GURPS' native level of complexity would be tolerable to the majority only if game play could be reduced to World of Warcraft-level automation. They want to get a campaign up and running in an evening, run dozens of combats in a night, have a de facto PvP level of objectivity, and make quick choices throughout. I have serious doubts that GURPS is cut out for this. If it could be hammered into such a form, though, I am certain that it would sell better. As hinted at above, I'm also fairly sure that its existing fandom would be unhappy with the transformation.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

I must object strongly to the characterisation of the Discword as light and fluffy. To take some of my favourites, Night Watch and Thud!, especially, they are heavier, richer and more textured than any roleplaying campaign I've played or hope to play. In general, most Discworld books are more 'adult' in tone, subject and treatment than roleplaying sessions can ever be, unless the players are genius paragons who never break character, prepare meticulously for weeks for every session and have crafted characters worthy of immortalisation in literature. It's just that Discworld books are also riotiously funny.

The Discworld books are not light and fluffy, even if the first few may have been. By now, they are stealth literature, featuring grit, complex morality, deep and textured motivations, violence with real consequences and villains with unsettling yet plausible characterisation.

I doubt I could run a good Discworld game, though I've run a session during the playtest that was fairly well received. But if I tried, I can't imagine doing it with anything other than GURPS.* Light-and-fluffy systems like Toon or BESM would be right out.

*Though I might end up using some books with GURPS Discworld that weren't incorporated into the stand-alone supplement because they weren't available at the time, like Ritual Path Magic.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

Pointers, sure. Release? Not so much. Especially in time for your next session (depending on when that is). I'm also not sure it passes the SJGames Policy which is why I haven't posted it anywhere else. I'm more than happy to discuss architecture and implementation details however.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

I likely read what I wanted into what you said. I do think we can get close enough to appease the current fandom and expand the fan base by managing quite a bit of the perceived individual complexity. Not everyone can keep track of all the numbers for ten-dozen different modifiers on each of several possible options. But I may be taking my own very limited experience and assuming others will be happy with what amounts to a very automated virtual table top rather than an RTS/CRPG.

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

Not really want I meant by light and fluffy, I was referring to system not tone. However, that said as much I like the layered nature of TP's work, emulating them is not going to involve the level of detail GURPS goes to in modelling outcome. The complexity you describe is a narrative one, not a resolution one.

More over if you change you niche, how do you avoid stepping into someone else's. This doesn't strike me as an industry with enough of a market to support too much direct competition.

The ideal is of course to persuade a larger section of the market that your niche is not as dark and scary as they may think, but actually lovely and warm and just what they are looking for. Expensive!


Pretty much

Re: Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database
 

*shrug*

Given how gritty the various stories are, elements in them are such points as 'non-lethal' subdual methods being either less than effective or very dangerous; medical skills having inter-species defaults; a clear distinction between Combat Sport and Combat skills, not to mention Brawling vs. Boxing or Karate; a wealth of different academic skills existing, interdefaulting or not; and other nods to realism which are easily modelled in GURPS, less easily in a more abstract system.

One of the conceits of the Discworld is that the stories are often founded on taking fantastic tropes or situations and then not abstracting away little details of realism as is done in simplistic fantasy stories, and by extension RPGs designed to emulate such stories.

This means that my first thought for emulating Discoworld stories is having a fairly robust system for simulating something much closer to reality than BESM, Toon or pretty much any simple RPG I've seen. Of course, it needn't be GURPS, but a purpose designed system for Discworld wouldn't necessarily be any simpler than GURPS, at least not if the stand-alone product reproduces only the parts of GURPS that are necessary for the setting.