GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

I just got back from my store liaison visit, in which I had a really interesting conversation with the guys there, that I felt was worth sharing.

We were discussion how the SJG card games (Munchkin, Ninja Burger, etc.) sold really well there, but GURPS didn't. In fact, the manager went over his list of the RPG books that sold in the double-digits last year, and GURPS wasn't on there. Predictably, they were almost all D&D books, with a handful of Shadowrun and (oddly) the new Mage game.

So we started talking about why they thought that was, and both of them were quite sure that one of the reasons is that the GURPS books, "though they've improved, just can't compete visually with most of the D&D books. They're not as attractive, and when I see people making the decision to buy, a major factor is how the book looks."

He handed me the new Book of Thrones d20 game (from GoO) and had me flip through it. I was impressed. Every single page made use of full color backgrounds and patterns, but not in a way that obscured the text. There were plenty of boxes and such to break up the text flow, and every few dozen pages, there'd be a full, two-page spread of artwork (some of it very nice, some average, but none was poorly done). I handed it back, and he continued, "People are picking up this book, flipping through it, and buying it on the style points alone. The fact that they already know d20 helps, of course, but the GURPS books just don't grab anyone. The new books look better than the old edition, sure, but they're still boring and the little bit of art that there is isn't that great."

Considering the number of people that rallied against the changes SJG made for 4E, I thought this was a really interesting point of view. This guy sees what people are buying and has a chance to find out why they're buying it, and if he's right, it seems like SJG might not have gone far enough in trying to improve the look of their products. Even now, flipping through Powers, while there are several decent pieces of art, a lot of it is just straight Poser and some is just horrible (like the fire-breathing Jesus on p. 26).

Is this having an effect on sales? According to one FLGS, the answer is a definite yes. Old-school GURPS fans might not mind a book with no (or bad) art as long as it's crammed with useful text, but any product lives on new blood -- the maxim of the business world is "grow or die". Does GURPS need to get more attractive?

EDIT: Please note that this thread is not intended to complain about quality (artwork or otherwise) of the GURPS books, but instead to discuss whether or not he was right about the direction that GURPS needs to head in. Is presentation as important (or even more important) in a gaming book as content?

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

The fact that Game of Thrones is a multi-million dollar bestseller doesn't have anything to do with it?

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

I work at a Game Store.

...and try to "push" GURPS (MIB wannabe)

But yeah the artwork look of the books could use a lot of help.

Hell, even bringing back Dan Smith - but doing his stuff in color could help a whole bunch. The Color stuff he did for Illuminati had tons of personality. Honestly , a lot of the 4th edition artwork feels FLAT when compared to other game books on our shelves.

- Edmund W. Charlton
"Qoltar"

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

I don't know. I don't know if investing (lots of) resources in artwork and presentation would really help GURPS from a commercial point of view. It surely would improve it's visual quality, but I really have mixed feelings about the overall impact.

Yes, GURPS art is mostly meh. I, for one, have not bought the GM Screen because it's so ugly.

However would improving the quality of art beyond average increase profit?

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

This issue doesn't really matter to those who are already sold on GURPS. There have been grumblings about the quality of the artwork in the 4e line and justifiably so. I do think that the visual presentation of books are a selling point. Anyone who doesn't think so is a fool. Even when I peruse my local book store...often it is the cover that attracts me to pick it up and read the back cover. I don't see why this would change just because its an rpg.

I can only imagine how many sales have been lost because GURPS 4e just doesn't compete that well with the impulse buyer...

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Did you remember the original 4e covers? :rolleyes:

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

No Luther, I had successfully scrubbed those memories from my mind...until... NOW!!!!!!!

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

This is the key question, of course, and one which I am not qualified to answer authoritatively. My instinct tells me no.

But I turn a deaf ear... What does IT know?
;)

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

We're always working on improving our art, and would be doing so even if it were being created by Leonardo, Michelangelo, Raphael, and Donatello (not the turtles).

My personal feeling is that what we're doing right now is pretty good, with occasional flashes of great. When we get up to "gob-smackingly great" on almost every page, then I'm going to be almost satisfied.

best wishes,

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

I really didn't like the look of the new edition at first. I found the three-columns layout annoying, the colored borders just boring and the overall art unattractive. In short, I thought it lacked character and mood. I was even more disappointed my Banestorm. Even though the art was generally better then in the Basic Set, I thought it was even worst to endure the boring borders for a setting book. A fantasy book could have been much more interesting (visually) with texture and fancy borders (and a good continental map but that is another story).

Still, the look grew on me. I finally like how it looks. Sure I still believe the art could be improved a lot and the style of the borders could be personalized depending on the type of book (fantasy or super or science-fiction).

So I guess yes, the visual could be improved in a way that would help sales. I was sold to GURPS from the get go so even if I strongly disliked the look I bought it and gave it enough time so it could grow on me.

Someone else, not knowing GURPS, might not give it the same chance.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

You know, it never occurred to me before but this is exactly why I didn't buy it. I bought everything else but not it...

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

~.^ Phallic fight of the Technology Levels! I think a whole chapter of Traveller's Aide#69 Marital Aids of the Third Imperium wrote itself when I saw those covers. O.O

I've been tempted to pick up Game of Thrones despite being unable so far to slog through the first novel. It's very eye-catching and BIG. So far I'm trying to hold out for the Tri-Stat version so's I can crib from it for Tekumel: Empire of the Petal Throne. T:EPT also wins points for being eye-catching & different, though more conventional in presentation. A full-color T:EPT would have been amazing and really shown off the setting.

So far GURPS: Interstellar Wars is looking pretty good illustration wise though we've only seen the book equivalent of a movie trailer. I think one thing GURPS 3e had going for it was a fairly standard art style which worked. Okay it wasn't too shiny but there was a good bit of art. I take it 4e either doesn't have a standard art style, not "enough" art, or just a m3h standard art style? From what I've seen it's a mix of the last two.

Personally I think presentation is better that say a lot of art pieces. HARP’s a good example for me of a current game that works presentation-wise without have full color slick layout. The art’s b&w but there’s a good bit of it and it’s usually topical. See Harp Lite and harphq.com .

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

I know I'm on the extreme end, but I believe every GURPS book should have artwork on a level with an Osprey publication. Unrealistic, but one can always hope.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Hello Marketing guy,

You want to help me to sell your products??

Put the GURPS LITE 4th ed on better quality paper. Like the pound count or rag you used for the 3rd edition ones. I tried to photocopy a bunch (like I mentioned in the older thread) - and the high-speed self-serve copier shredded the orginal. The very helpful printing place worker - told me that I needed better paper to do what I want.

SO, once I get more ink for my printer - the guy said he would do the pagination off of my personal PDF printout - so I can staple them and recruit more players for my games...and for GURPS in general.

For the love of the game - PLEASE improve the quality of the paper GURPS LITE is printed on that you include with the GM screen and that you had out at cons.

- E.W. Charlton

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

NO, it's not just the art it's accessability, GURPS is too big and scary. There needs to be some better entry points. I'm thinking Prime Directive, but with better art would be an excellent example of what I'm thinking. Cheap and setting complete, no sorting out what you want to allow.

Don't get me wrong, I love big reference books, but I'm a long time fan, not a new customer. GURPS lite is too small to do the job. What might do well is some 16 page world books for say, Fantasy, Horror, and Science Fiction. Put a floppy cover on them (with an overleaf of cardboard heros) and the lite book and price under $20.

Diskworld and WorldWar II were along the right lines but too specific and too expensive. Yes two $20 books are as expensive as one bigger book, but smaller books aren't as scary looking.

I'd suggest: GURPS Bane Storm lite, GURPS Autoduel lite, GURPS Ogre lite, and GURPS Traveller lite (which needs the William Keith art, or all new Dave Detrik no substitutions please).

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

And (I hope I get these names right, it has been awhile) Blair Reynolds, Michael Vilardi, and... Rob Caswell.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Nope ,
Jesse deGRaff space ship art work ...and Glenn Grant for TRAVELLER

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

I'm pretty sure that the idea that more attractive products sell better is a done deal. The only question I see is why let a product go out the door that didn't look as good as the competition? Maybe there were monetary concerns with that amount of artwork. Maybe the designer in question had not looked to see what he was up against. Maybe everyone liked the way it looked when it went out.

To me, this is a more interesting question.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

The answer is embodied in the old line, "An artist's work is never done, simply abandoned."

My guess is that there has never been a book in the history of man that the publisher was completely satisfied with. (Especially in the days of cuneiform; you just don't want to mess with errata on clay tablets.) There's always going to be a piece of art you don't love, or one more misspelled word that you didn't catch, or a phrase that could have been smarter or funnier.

So you do the best you can, and you resign yourself to the fact that there will come a point -- usually ten minutes before the last FedEx pickup on the day it absolutely has to go to the printers -- when you have to say, "This book is as good as we can make it this time," and let it go. And then you go out and do the next book better.

So it's really not about comparing yourself to other publishers. It's about doing the best you can with the time and money and talent that you have, and always trying to improve your work. The market will let you know if what you're doing is good enough, and SJ Games seems to have done all right on that front.

best wishes,

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Chris Aylott,
I wasn't knocking your efforts - just need better paper for "LITE" I wanna help you push your stuff.

- E.W. Charlton

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Chris, I hope you don't think I started this thread to knock SJG or the quality of the books. It was more at how struck I was by the vastly different opinions between FLGS guy ("GURPS needs to focus more on artwork and presentation to be more eye-catching.") and old-school GURPS/3E fans ("I hate that they went to hardcover and color because I feel like I'm paying for it. Give me text I can read and a decent layout and nothing more, please.")

When I told him of the reaction (I'm tempted to say "backlash") that ensued when fans found out GURPS was going to hardbound, color, 240-page books, he (FLGS guy) was absolutely floored.

So, I didn't really want this to be a "What's wrong with SJG that their artwork sucks?" thread... more of a, "Do you guys think this is right? Do you think that presentation matters as much as content?"

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Game of Thrones was but one example of many, and one that he could put in my hand. He specifically said that the d20 books that sold well were far more visually appealing. And from the comments that his customers had made, many of them (Game of Thrones fans or not) were undecided about whether to pick up the book until they held it in their hands and looked at it, and that made the difference.

I know I've done the same thing. I heard a good buzz about Nobilis, but it was only one game of many that sounded interesting. It wasn't until I was in my FLGS and saw it on the shelf that it grabbed my eyes and pulled them towards it. Flipping through it, I couldn't help but thinking, "Wow, even if this game sucks, it'd sure be pretty to have lying around...." That night, I consciously grepped the net for as much solid information as I could get about the game -- I got mixed reviews, but overall it seemed not to suck, so I bought it, simple as that.

Now, don't get me wrong -- Nobilis is an absolutely brilliant game. I hate over-hyped terms like "revolutionary", but it's appropriate here. Still, I would never have been so interested in the game (interested enough to sit down and spend my night making sure it was worth checking out) if the core book hadn't looked as damn pretty as it did.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

One thing to keep in mind is that, when we first started working on the page design for Fourth Edition, the example of the horrible backgrounds from some of the new D&D books was firmly in our mind. We decided to forgo backgrounds entirely rather than try to come up with something that wouldn't make the text difficult to read for at least some people.

There were a couple of major reasons for switching to three columns. One is that it's an immediate visual cue that something is a Fourth Edition book rather than an earlier one.

(And here I'll note that Phil and I set up a couple of experiments YEARS ahead of Fourth Edition's release. Alpha Centauri was a prototype 4/e book long before anyone but Phil was even thinking about the 4/e graphic design, and All-Star Jam was a refinement of those ideas based on the things we learned from AC. Jam also let us test our new text font* to see if it would be obtrusive, obstreperous, or otherwise objectionable. Passed with flying colors -- well, grayscale.)

Another is that it gives the production staff a lot more flexibility in layout. Boxed text, quotes, art, and other graphic elements can be two or three columns wide (very rarely, one), which allows for a bit more variety on the page at a cost of not much more effort.

* Modified New Aster, if you're curious. The old books used plain old Times, which is a solid workhorse but which caused problems on occasion ... there are a LOT of versions of Times out there, and sometimes opening a file created with one version of Times on a computer that had another version of Times would result in the layout equivalent of a technicolor yawn. New Aster is significantly less common, which makes it less likely that font problems will arise down the road. Plus, IMO, it's visually just a bit more interesting than Times, but not in a way that jumps up and down waving road flares while you're trying to read. (I especially like the italic version, compared with italic Times.) And New Aster came in a wide variety of weights, so it's useful in a variety of situations.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Don't worry, I didn't take it that way at all. Just trying to give you an idea of where we're coming from when we look at the books ourselves.

And to prosper and grow, we need to please both sets of customers. A bit tricky, to say the least, but that's what makes the job fun. :)

best wishes,

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Ah.. let them fend for themselves! Just give me what I want :\

Heh. I'll buy one of each... kind of a shill that way :)

When do I get paid?

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

This is a very good point. As long time players we're mostly interested in the material, but making the books more attractive isn't going to lose us as customers, and is much more likely to attract new customers.

We all repeat the cliche "Don't judge a book by its cover."; however, the reason it's a cliche is because it's something we all do.

Before buying any book we look at it, pick it up, look at the back blurb.
If the art is crap we might just put it back before reading the blurb, if the art is good we might buy it just because we were attracted to it.
Then we read the blurb in the back, if its good we'll buy the book, if it's bad, we either put it down, or maybe flip through the front comments, or check out the prologue or first chapter to see if its interesting, and if something catches our eye we buy it, otherwise it goes back on the shelf.

I like GURPS, and despite my complaints about some of the bad pieces in the books, for the most part outside of the amateurish looking unfinished Poser bits, the art is adequate and there's even an occasional nice piece.

However, adequate doesn't really attract people, it doesn't make them go "ooh shiny, must purchase", or "wow, this is cool".

I'll buy the books for the written content, because I'm an established customer. I'd hazard that most other established customers also buy the books despite the bad Poser stuff because of the written content as well.

On the other hand, to get new customers, GURPS needs to be more attractive. I'm not saying it's an ugly dog, you don't need to wrap it in a paper bag, but it's also not good-looking enough to flaunt.


I've also mentioned in the past that I believe new GM's screens for different settings with good art would be worth pushing. (Luther's right, the current GM's Screen is the one published product which is a dog, visually.)

Qoltar has a good point too, GURPS Lites on better paper, maybe with some art or even softcovers, possibly even expanded out to twice the size with additional material for different settings and/or additional game aides like the GURPS cards, depending on the price I'd probably buy half a dozen and hand over one to each of my players.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

I am a person who always does lots of research on a given game system or sourcebook before deciding whether or not to purchase it. I'll read multiple online reviews of the product, ask around about it at RPG.net, join any dedicated forums and/or chat rooms (anyone who remembers my entrance to this forum will know that I did not own Basic Set for weeks after joining), et cetera. At no point does the appearance of the book or its artwork affect my decisionmaking process, although sloppy layouts annoy me and bad editing will turn me off in an instant.

However, I also find myself drawn to flashy or pretty books when I am in the FLGS. I won't buy them based on their eye-candy factor -- I've been through one too many beautiful, worthless d20 books to fall for that again -- but they sure are appealing. I was sorely tempted to buy Engel just the other day, until I read the horror-story reviews and also discovered that it was OGL (I've sworn d20 off indefinitely).

Still, cuteness does equal sales these days in many cases. It's unfortunate.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

IMO what's important is that the presentation be distinctive. Show that GURPS is different from the competition. Make it stand out from the clutter on the display shelves. How do you do that? I dunno, I'm not a graphic designer.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Actually, I'm in favour of the art and layout. Well okay, there's some pieces in Magic that are horrible, sure, fine. But the thing is, realistic looking people with realistic looking gear. Very limited amounts of bondage gear.

Yup, I like the look just fine. ;)

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Yes, I believe he's right. This is especially true of the cover art. I remember seeing the first edition of Shadowrun from across the room. The striking Larry Elmore cover art really grabbed me. I went across the room and picked the book up. I was impressed more by the look of the book and the cool concepts than the game design. I only played Shadowrun (SR) a couple of times but I bought several SR books and converted them to GURPS to play. But I probably never would have given SR a look if it hadn't been for the covers.

Of course, the only reason I ever gave GURPS a try was due to Steve Jackson since I'd played the In the Labyrinth line from when Steve was designing games for Metagaming.

The art work for 4e, isn't bad, but it really isn't really doing a good job of competing with a lot of stuff out there. The old CP 2020 books had much better artwork. I remember one of my players picking up one of my Cyberpunk books (might have been the original boxed set that had Friday Night Fire Fight) and saying "nice art ... this looks cool, why don't we play this". Since I pretty much standardized on GMing using GURPS rules, it had to wait until I could do some conversions into GURPS.

I think improved art work, especially for covers would help direct sales at retail quite a bit. I've never seen a GURPS cover as striking as the old GURPS Fantasy one (1st edition demon cover by Denis Loubet). That picture was so cool it was reused multiple times including Space Gamer (which I think was its first appearance) and later for one of the Ultima computer games.

I just bought GURPS Dragons and the art is nice - stylized with an attitude. The layout is really nice. I like it much better than the GURPS Basic books. The two columns are much nicer to read and the boxes and they way the art work is presented are very nice. Personally, I would have liked to have had a couple of different artists doing the dragons, but the Alex Fernandez illustrations are definitely better than a lot of the older GURPS books. The style is vaguely reminiscent of "SMIF", but bolder and more well -- artistic.

If they do a GURPS Beastiary I hope they get Heather Burton and Shae Ryan to illustrate most of the creatures. I especially want Burton to do the griffins.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

There is one area where presentation is really important and it is an area where you bring in new customers - LICENSED BOOKS.

I think it would be great to do a GURPS Hellboy update for 4e with shots from the movies (the past one and the upcoming one whenever it comes out) as well as artwork from the comic. Of course, this means timing production to coincide with the movie. It also means there will be more expenses, but it would definitely get a much greater exposure for GURPS.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

I'm a brand new consumer of GURPS - never before had any dealings with SJG, or any of it's products.

Whatever that may mean :) (already my opion should be someone suspect, 'cause I'm one of those who actually participate on forums, unlike the vast majority)

I purchased basic set sight unseen, based on my desire to find something new that was different from D20 OGL sameness. This was an online purchase, from a Canadian book store and I only had the cover images to go off of. I decided to go with GURPS because I wanted crunchy and I wanted lots of timely releases. and reviews seemed to be generally positive.

Getting the books, and flipping though it, I was struck by just how NOT like other RP books this one seemed to be. Very colourful, though in a primary colour sort of way. The pictures felt retro for me. I thought immediatly that GURPS must really focus on the pulp fiction aspect of story telling - be it mystery or fantasy, or sci-fi.. The front cover art was so-so, but I really liked the stark black background colour. Nothing on my shelf even comes close to this.

Today I went to a FLGS to pick up a GM Screen (advise from another thread), and there was a wall of RP Books. all the spines seemed to be white, tan, shades of brown, with gold lettering - otherwise known as "safe" styling in RP hard cover books I think.

But waaaaaay down there, on the bottom shelf, part of the floor even, tucked away in the farthest corner where these 7 or 8 thicker than average hard back books which were pure black with this very contrasting bold text saying BASIC SET CHARACTERS, or BASIC SET CAMPAIGN etc. it stuck out like a sore thumb. I saw them immediatly as I was browsing the shelf, and just by the spine, they looked like nothing else on the shelf.

That's got to be worth something?!?!

I agree, if you don't know what GURPS is (like me) and don't take the time to research, then looking at these books for the very first time might be taken aback by it's design.

I'm growing to like it very much, I like how different these books are from all my other books.

someone else above made a really great point about coming up with Lite versions of some of the core books. I feel utterly daunted, adn that would be a great idea. Use the lite version as the gateway drug. Give it to them cheep, give it to them with lots of splash, get them hooked so that by the next time the addiction needs to be sated, the 'feel' or 'look' of the non-lite volumes matters less than if you are a brand new consumer.

Sorry for the ramble.

cheers,

J.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

To the OP:
Personally... I don't think it's a sign that SJG needs better art. Sure, a few more people would buy it.

Mostly, the books with GREAT art that I've seen were lacking in even fair content. Those books to my exp get bought, the pictures scanned, a few half hearted attempts to play, then they're on the used bookstore shelf or ebay.

I for one don't think much of a system that has a large number of in print books being sold on ebay or used book store shelves that are "hardly used" and look like they were opened 4 times. Many of the pretty game books I've seen fit this.

GURPS doesn't sell heavily, but it sells a product that sells itself. GURPS books are very rare on ebay, and the ones that are are well used, have been repaired many times, and ... well.... basically it's like finding a 1e AD&D book on ebay... it's obvious they've just moved on and don't NEED the book anymore and are freeing shelf space for a new hobby/genre/whatever.

I'd much rather spend my $35 - $40 on a coherent, fun and unbroken game than one that is flashy.

Besides, I think the overall effect of all my 4e books on their shelf looks kinda cool.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

I was very disappointed by all the Poser art in GURPS Magic. Even if they were prepared by different artists, there was a boring sameness to the pictures because they were all so uniform. Something painted, something drawn would have made it more interesting than just everything Posed.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

I would have to put myself in the "other" camp of GURPS fans. When I heard that 4th edition was to be all hardbound, I was ecstatic! I want my rulebooks sturdy and to last! I've been wondering though, when you look at the huge amount of third edition sourcebooks out there, one has to imagine at least some of them will be reprinted. I can't imagine they wont be converted to fourth (at least, I hope they will) - but I wonder if its necessary for all sourcebooks to be hardbound. Rule books like High Tech, Bestiary, Vehicles, Space etc, yes - but not sure Spec Ops or Old West could support a complete harbound volume...any way, kudos to SJG for going the Hardback route.

And, yes, I too am guilty of buying RPG's based on their covers....I bought Dark Conspiracy by GDW based on its cover....

To the folks about specialized GURPS Lite to tempt the masses...isn't that what GURPS for Dummies is for? And yes, I hate the paper that GURPS Lite is printed on! Might be nice to have a nicely done GURPS LIte with soft covers as mentioned before available for retailers to carry and set on the counter as a cheap last minute impulse buy.

George

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

It looks like reprints are going to be e23 only for the most part.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

ooo, Heather Bruton... Also Sandra SanTara, if she'd be interested: http://windwolf.com/ ...

EDIT: Just in case anyone thinks I have an "in" with the art people... Nah, not really. I just saw Sandra's stuff at Arisia recently.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

I'm still a little unclear on what GURPS for Dummies will actually contain. However it does look promising and cheap. :)

Anyhow, I just miss the old days when Fantasy, Horror, Autoduel, and Horse Clans were all under $15. Well that and I think a specialized rules subset is a good thing to have as a handout.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Personally, I enjoy the look of the 4E Characters and Campaigns books. They are easy to read, lots and lots of info, and the artwork is decent. One problem I have is that the other 4E books look exactly the same. To me, it makes Magic, and Infinite Worlds and so on feel sterile, because they all look identical. Also, I do enjoy varied artwork, although that is not necessary. I just recently got my hands on the Transhuman Space book. It is the most beautiful, gorgeous, stunning roleplaying book I have ever seen. The artwork is just amazing, especially the cover. It gives the setting a feel that seems to me to be lacking in many of the 4E releases.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

The art isn't actually bad as such, I think. Just a bit plain.

Seems computer-coloured to me. Perhaps drawn on a digital tablet too? If so, I think the artist hasn't really been using the medium to the full. There's some amazing stuff you can do with a digital tablet and a bit of experimentation - like this guy: http://poisondlo.deviantart.com/

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

YES! I've been saying and posting this for a while. The excuse that "Well, if you don't want to blow page count, you can't have...blah-blah-blah..." doesn't hold water with me. I don't think you'd even have to bind them up. Keep them separate and in a little display case.

You have GURPS Lite and three or four of the most basic genres -- and maybe, maybe one introductory adventure each. Remember how the Alderac Adventure Boosters were designed/displayed? Thin pamphlets that stacked all nice and compact on a tree by the cash register? here

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

You mean, a bit -- generic?

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Yup. I also remember that several game store owners I know took a huge bath on those.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Well, be fair. Do you think they took a bath on those because they were neat and compact and by the cash register?

Or maybe it had something to do with the deluge of D20 material at that point...or the quality of what was in them?

Maybe I should bring up Melee and Wizard, two more products pithily packaged. Who took a bath on those?

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Almost certainly the latter. That doesn't change the fact that store owners are now gunshy about small, cheap-looking products. When we were soliciting opinions on Fourth Edition, almost universally the store owners told our sales and marketing staff that books that looked high-quality sold better than books that looked cheap. For better or worse, "looks high-quality" means hardcovers with color art.

For all the blithe "Oh, just go a quick, simple variant of GURPS Lite," it is NOT quick. NOT simple. It may still be worth doing, but don't minimize the effort and commitment required to do it right.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Andrew ,
How about making a deal with Paizo?? Right now they send those mini -adventure things to the store I work at. They come with a small area map, usually 2 to 3 pewter miniatures and a Mini-adventure that uses the map and NPCS. The price point is around $14.00

We always sell those within 5 to 7 days of getting them .
How about a GURPS version of the same idea??

- Edmund W. Charlton

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Heh. Point taken. GURPS is supposed to be the mr. Potato Head of RPG's. But does that mean you can't give it a distinctive graphic profile?

It's off to a good start with the iconic characters and the new front pages. But as the worldbooks get less generic, it might be good to have a less generic overall style. The D&D3 main books are sweating fantasy from every damn pore, rather than just featuring some fantasy pictures here and there. The difference is rather striking.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Good morning,

Without wanting to be unpolite, I just don't like the look of 4e at all.
There is a consistent artdesign, but it doesn't catch me, it has not got a quality of flavour, the first function of artwork in RPGs or books in general. Some of the pieces are quite nice, but most of them look too "on-the-fly" or "there-has-to-be-some-art" to me to work in the abovementioned way.
Probably, they are just not my cup of art.

On the other hand, there are some points in the design of the new books I like quite well; the colour-coded chapters f.ex.; though I'm still devastated by the loss of the sidebars. They were the part by which you immediatly recognised a page from a GURPSbook, i.e. plain good old corporate identity stuff. Shame on the guy or girl who decided to drop those.

Back to the topic: Surely, a good cover can sell a book. Especially in RPGs, table-tops, comics and related products, good covers and nice artwork draw the young. So, better (i.e. better tailored to the majority of the target group, mostly boys age 15 to 25 I guess) over-all art and design would probably increase sales. Question remains if that wouldn't cost more than it would aquire in revenues.

If somebody should think about starting GURPS 5e only for me, I would strongly recommend no art at all but good consistent structure, keep colourcoding, reintroduce sidebars, switch maintext to 2 columns, keep textboxes, keep good glossary, if art at all make it only 1 frontpage per chapter, keep good reference-system, put in some cool diagrams. Hardcover is okay with me.

Now that I think of it, put in some art. I want Smif back!

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

It's these kind of equations that always need to be reconsidered and challenged, the overworn adage being "think outside the box" (I almost can't type that anymore.) The question becomes "Is it possible to make a compact product with an emanent aura of high-quality?" I think it is possible. Not easy, maybe not even run-of-the-mill difficult, maybe it's nut-busting hard. But if any company can do it, SJG can.
Apologies if I came off as blithe. I never considered it easy. I'm just obstinate, is all -- but it's an obstinacy built on tremendous faith in this company's ingenuity. (The only other company I bother to give feedback to is WoTC, and that is due to a tremendous faith in that company's largesse, not ingenuity.)

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

An opinion is not being unpolite...opinions are encouraged, though some will tell you differently..
Well here's the rub KK...Not everyone is going to want the same things that you do, and SJgames has to make a call on which direction they will go. And, SJ games is very cognisant of the type of "gamers" that buy from SJgames and base those decisions off of that knowledge. No system is perfect but once your committed it is very difficult to start making changes. I know that I do not, want, any of the future 4e books to start looking differently. I wish for my set to be a like. Sure there are some things that I didn't like but I'll adapt, accept and get used to them. After-all it's the core mechanics and the game that I am interested in...and in the end that is what really sells GURPS. You get testimonies all the time.

Just to highlight what I'm saying I'll take your 12 points and we'll compare notes.

1. Your not really clear hear so, i am going to assume that you don't like the cover design. Well I do. And, apparently many others did, because they had a contest to see what cover design they where going to use and the one they are using was an overwhelming favourite.

2. Here I think your doing a great disservice. There is a large group of +25 gamers that are GURPS fans...that have that all important disposable income. Sure you want to attract new gamers to your game but at the same time you have to keep your core gamers happy. then there is always the danger of trying to straddle the line, too much, that you end up pleasing no one.

3. I like my game books sprinkled with art. It is almost accepted practice and in many cases is a deal breaker for purchases.

4. I agree.

5. I was never a big fan of the side-bar. It was always distracting, to me. I'm glad the did away with it.

6. I like the three column look. I don't find it any harder to read and referencing is just as easy. There is a reason most magazines use 3 columns.

7. I agree.

8. I whole heartily agree. A poorly done index is practically a deal breaker...

9. I'm going to say we half agree. I'd like to see a few full page pieces of art spread through-out the books. But, I'd maintain the smaller pieces also.

10. Agreed...very important for an rpg.

11. For what? But, if there is a need...I'm sure this request will be fulfilled. So, half agreed again.

12. I like the hard-cover much, much more than soft cover.

So, of your 12 points I agreed with 5, disagreed with 5 and split on 2. Now, that is just you and me comparing posts. SJ games has to make decisions based on more than two people. A daunting task. That is why forums and threads like these are an important tool. So, keep posting... ;)







Let me be the first to thank you for not calling yourself something like "kicking K kosmos".

Death to sidebars!
 

I was involved in that decision (although I did not make the final call). Originally it was a one-book experiment (GURPS Atlantis, if you're curious), but it worked SO well that it was made policy. Here are some of the reasons sidebars were abandoned:

1) Some customers didn't like them. I have said this before and been met with disbelief, but it's true. When sidebars continued from one spread to the next, we heard from people who didn't like having to flip that page back and forth to read both the main text and the sidebar.

2) Writers didn't have the flexibility they needed. The need to "balance" main text and sidebars, so that they came out relatively even in each chapter, caused a lot of problems. It was not at all uncommon for an editor to have to pick a section of main text to move to a sidebar, or vice versa. (The most egregious example of this was in the first edition of GURPS Lensman, where equipment descriptions were both in main text and in sidebars, somewhat haphazardly.) Chances are, if you see a piece of text in a sidebar that seems REALLY relevant to the main text nearby, or a section of main text that looks tangential to the topic, it's text that was moved to balance the layout.

3) Sidebars were harder on the layout staff than boxes. Each chapter was two separate files -- one for main text and one for sidebars. Sometimes writers would say that certain sidebars needed to be with certain pieces of main text, which added another challenge. Under the new box text style, every chapter is a single file, with boxes placed exactly where the writer wants them. The savings on time and on production artists' sanity was astounding, the first time we did this.

4) Sidebars look boring. Open up an old GURPS book and look at every spread: exactly the same, except for art placement. Using the box text style means that the box can be placed anywhere on the page. (I will admit that, particularly early on, we tended to ask "Which corner does this box go into?", but there's no inherent reason boxes can't go in the middle of the column, and I know later on we made a conscious effort NOT to limit ourselves to corner placements.) Every spread looks fresh.

I'm not trying to convince you that sidebars were worse -- you're entitled to your opinion on the subject. But I am telling you why I will NEVER be ashamed that we abandoned them for something that worked better.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

The boxes work much better than the old sidebars did. Not only are they more attractive, but they're far more functional -- I hated when I started to read a sidebar on one page, and it got "continued on next page..." for eight pages! Then I'd have to go back and find my place and start reading again. It was goofy. The new sideboxes would just put such a monstrosity into a full-page box. Much nicer.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

I feel quite confident in saying that an RPG book with no art would sell horribly. See my first post -- while I'm not saying that the FLGS guys are the final word on what sells, they're quite convinced that artwork and the visual design within a book are a serious factor in how well it sells, and they're giving me an informed opinion.

Ugh. No Smif. I was glad to see him go (the only thing I liked his work on were the INWO cards. Too cartoony. (Not that I'm saying the lame Poser art that's been cropping up a lot is any better, mind you.)

If we're going to focus on artists, I would like to see more Christopher Shy and Alex Fernandez. The former has a distinct style that fits many genres and the latter is very versatile -- check out his work on Cops, Faerie, and Dragons (all different styles).

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Actually, in nearly all cases, a monster sidebar like that was originally main text that was chopped out because the main text was long and the sidebars were short. So something that long would probably be main text in the new format. (And if not, the author would be smacked -- the writer's guidelines are very clear about maximum box length!)

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Shy has moved on to other projects (which pay better). Fortunately, Alex is still on staff, so there's always hope for more of his stuff!

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

I think the entry point should be a small "player's manual" giving the basic rules info and leaving the rest of it for the GM. That'd get a gaming group more willing to follow one guy's suggestion to try GURPS. When I ran a con game I stapled a one-page rules summary to the back of the pre-gen characters and that worked fine.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

I asked my friend, who owns the GM screen, about this issue. He tends to agree with me. Sure, nice art on the GM screen would be nice, but... He didn't buy it for the art on the side shown to players, he bought it for easy access to all the charts and tables without having to open the book. I feel the same way... That's the intent of a GM screen... easy access to the important charts, and to a lesser degree, hiding your rolls and characters from players. The art or lack therof is not AT ALL a selling point for him or me.

[RANT} I may be wrong, but IMO the reason that d20 sells better that GURPS is a simple fact of ease of play. Is GURPS a better system? Hell, yes! Is GURPS an easier system? No. Level-based systems are easy. You are a 5th level fighter. 5th level fighters have fighting abilities. They do NOT cast spells. Very rigid, very balanced.

Point based systems... I can have Combat Reflexes and Magery too... the only true "limits" on what your character can or cannot purchase with his/her points is set by the GM.

Also, you have to take into account WotC's OGL program. They are the only company to do such a thing. That, without a doubt, was a stroke of genius in getting the d20 system to sell better than the competition.

To be totally honest, I don't need artwork in my books. I may be in the minority, I probably am. The cover should catch my eye, I'll give you that. But a picture doesn't tell me how to run a combat, text does. One of my favorite books for the 7th Sea game was Crescent Empire... I don't think I Remember a single bit of art IN the book... but it was packed full of information on the Cresent Empire area of the game world... when they started "Dual-statting" with their system and the d20 system, I had major issues with how the game converts (it doesn't IMO... old system, in time one could be master swordsman/master sorceror... d20 version, can't do it 'officially' unless you go past 20th level which is NOT supported as the Epic book wasn't OGL at the time), and every single review I ever read complained about the "wasted space" of the "other system" that nobody plays.

I think we as players of GURPS, if we care... We need to try to get other players to realize why GURPS is better than d20. Granted, D&D is fun sometimes, I do like it as long as I am playing a published "official" world that has lots of support and lots of prestige classes that "break" away from the cookie cutterishness of the whole system. I don't however like Star Wars (WotC's version, I do play West End's), d20 Modern is okay in how generic it is, but GURPS is better... I'd almost say d20 Modern is TOO generic with it's classes based on the six attributes...

[/RANT]

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

I think you're wrong. I think it has a lot more to do with D&D's extra 10 years of building a player base, during most of which time it had virtually no significant competition in its market. (And it's a popular market, too; I note that TSR published a number of RPGs, and none of them took off the way D&D did.)

This is not accurate. Other companies have offered similar licenses, some of which are even less restrictive than the d20 license. The difference was that they didn't have the large and entrenched fanbase that D&D does, so their licenses didn't get nearly the publicity that the OGL and d20 licenses did.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Let's not forget that D&D is now being bankrolled by a major player in the toy industry...not only does it bring in bigger budgets but real credibility among the general populous. Ask the average joe on the street if they've heard of Steve Jackson games...then ask them if they've heard of Hasbro.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Most of the gamers I know QUIT playing D&D when 3.0 came out, they didn't think it was needed OR wanted, and they don't play D&D 3.0, they don't play d20 anything, they like their THAC0 and screw the d20 system! Now, maybe most gamers i know are anal-retentive refuse to accept change jerks, but...

As for the OGL, maybe it's the advertising then, because it was the first time *I* ever heard of a company saying "Hey, you can make your own game with our system!"

Point.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Indeed. D&D is like Vaseline, Kleenex, Q-Tip, Coke, Vicks VapoRub, et cetera: it's a household name, the most well-known of its kind, and people are very comfortable with that. Who knows what would happen if you took a chance on another "brand"? People will often grab whatever is the most popular, without inspecting other "brands" to see if they're better.

Yeah. I liked ALTERNITY, but it never really gained a lot of popularity.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Yeah, although I didn't see the RPG industry that way, until recently. Whether others tried it and failed or not, the fact remains that WotC with THEIR OGL has revolutionized the RPG industry and made their system THE system that all others are to be trampled by. *cough*

I have heard that Richard Garfield, the founder of WotC, it is said has never actually PLAYED Magic the Gathering, and in fact has no idea even HOW to play it? He got the idea from Japan, paid others to make it here, and it's the same with roleplaying... he doesn't care about roleplaying, just making money. Yes, it's American Capitalism at it's finest, but... doesn't mean I have to like him comin' in and "taking over" my only hobby.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Ummm... Peter Adkinson was the founder of WotC, not Richard Garfield. Garfield designed MtG, which WotC bought and published. Peter was actually very into roleplaying/gaming. Hasbro bought the company, and the founder(s) have no current involvement.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Yeah, what Dahak said.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

As the others mentioned, Richard Garfield wasn't the founder of WotC, but the inventor of M:TG. As far as I know, he invented it himself . . . I started playing Magic in 1993 when it was nearly brand-new, and stopped sometime in the late 90s, so I have a passing familiarity with the history behind Magic. He was the company's baby at one time because Magic was THE collectible card game . . . that passed, and hopefully d20s popularity will, too.

I now detest collectible card games, though. They charge you a sonofabitching fortune for 15 cards, and keep making more . . . and more . . . and more . . . It's too expensive and wasteful for my taste.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

D&D is been the top RPG for decades now, with more players by at least an order of magnitude. The OGL helped, but it never would have worked if it didn't have the D&D playbase to draw from.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Ditto...(Why does it always have to do with Japan?)

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Um... ok... I heard that Garfield was on the board of directors for Hasbro, and that is why WotC was sold to Hasbro...

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Well, Garfield DID get the idea from Japan... They DID have "collectible card games" long before M:tG came out in America.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Possibly, although as I said, I know many more players that do NOT play D&D 3.0 than do. Most of the D&D players I know stick with AD&D 2nd edition.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Whereas most folks I know only went back to playing D&D with the advent of D&D3. The last time I'd played or run any D&D game was four years prior to D&D3's release. AD&D2, in particular was a boring, bland set of rules.

Fudge had been around for years before then.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

That's a high standard, like Museum quality books.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

I kind of agree. I think to get the younger market into the game, it might be necessary to do like D&D, and chop the basic game up into more comic-book sized and style intros, in addition to selling the big tomes (D&D has gone towards putting all 3 books into one tome now). Having just bought lots of 3e books on sale, I can see that that style of smaller, focused books is more inviting to Newbies, even if the content isn't as high. At a $13 to $15 price mark, role playing game books as modern Graphic Novella's might sell better---and that seems to be the D20 trend as well.

Am I right or wrong, but aren't most rpg's more oriented to the comic book stores than the model/Games Workshop stores? They should key into the marketplace setting as well as the hardcore fan.

Alternatively, I still think they could sell boxed sets that were in the range of board games and minis (perhaps only paper minis), while still being intro or thematic GURPS. E.g. Maybe an intro set, a Horror set, a Autoduel set etc...
SJG already does board/card games well, so it's almost a no-brainer.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

There are a lot of good observations and comments in this thread which I hope SJ Games takes to heart in future releases. I for one would really like to see them extend their artistic base. One option might be to more actively solicit for up-and-coming talented artists trying to break into the publication business and establish professional portfolios. This would be a good opportunity to get some great art at a reduced rate while providing and excellent opportunity for talented new artists to get recognized. (Maybe have competitions at universities and art schools??? I've seen artwork by student artists at places like Cal State Fullerton that would have been an enormous boost to books like GURPS Magic!)

[And if it comes to Poser-derived art or white space, choose the white space unless its by someone who can use Poser like Thomas Weiss.]

Other than the general quality of artwork, I think that the 4e books do have areas in which they equal or exceed many of the WotC books. The cover designs on the 4e books are for the most part very good and compare favorably with many of the WotC covers. I prefer their bold graphic look. The 4e books don't have annoying page backgrounds which interfere with reading as some of the early WotC 3.0 releases had. They didn't over/underdo the page coating like WotC did in many of their publications. Some of the Star Wars d20 books had pages had a real problem with glare from over the shoulder lights -- the 4e books are relatively easy to read in this regard. I also found that some of the Star Wars d20 books tended to easily smudge and take fingerprints -- not good for extended use by four or five players.

I personally prefer not paying for hard covers and would rather have the more compact size of softcover books (with care, Contact(tm) vinyl can keep softcover book covers looking fairly new for decades). I would also prefer pages that take highlighters better. (When my 4e Characters and Campaign books bindings failed early on I just put them in 3-rink binders and xeroxed sections so I could highlight and annotate easier.) It would also be nice to have wider margins for notes.

However, in spite for what I may want in the way of artwork, graphic design, or in the physical production of the books, I am very happy with the quality and thought that SJ Games put into the content of their books. I bought quite a few for this reason when I was moving through other RPG systems and is what finally got me to start playing GURPS.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Speaking of artwork, I disliked much of the artwork in GURPS Magic. One artist in particular (I'm unsure of who he is) did a lot of the art for that book, and frankly his subjects looked wooden, stiff, and just kind of artificial and awkward. It reminded me of early three-dimensional computer character models, only this art was done with paint.

*shrug* I don't care about the art in those books much at all; nevertheless, I think a better artist could have certainly added to the book's atmosphere and feel.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Apart from the Homunculus (which has a very cool pic), I agree somewhat. Though the art in Infinity and Powers wasn't that bad, imo.
Still, the b&w pieces by Dan Smith were a part of what made me buy into Gurps the first time. It's a pity he's no longer there.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

I haven't had a chance to see the art in Powers, but I liked Infinite Worlds art alot, even showed the picture of the nazi soliders (pg 193) to my WWII vet grandfather, and he said they were drawn well :)

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

I miss "Smif" too! Where is Dan Smith these days?? His art style WADS GURPS to me....

- E.W. Charlton

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

Smif's work reminds me of Rolemaster as much as GURPS, and I don't miss it. Some of his works were good, but to me much of it was neutral at best.

Re: GURPS/4E... could be more attractive?
 

I miss Smiff too. I liked most of his pieces. Yes it reminds me of Rolemaster too -- ah, sweet memories . . .