Re: New Reality Seeds
 

That's not a very stable situation for the long term, particularly if you are getting far enough along in history to talk about electricity. Workers of the World, Unite.

Re: New Reality Seeds
 

I think it's a bit of an overstatement of what exactly JQ Adams wanted to do and assigning much more blame on Jackson. Adams wanted to establish a national university, a national observatory, a naval academy, a uniform system of weights and measures, etc. The Jacksonian coalition disliked this plan for many reasons, including that they felt this was a centralizing move that would set the stage for abolition.

At the same time it's worth noting that the phase out of property rights based voting was mostly complete before Jackson's election (though the poor began voting en masse in the 1840 election).

Re: New Reality Seeds
 

That's at least as interesting an idea, though. It's like an early Conspiracy X/Black Chamber setup; the US government has access to TL7 devices that it is not sharing with other empires or the American general public. And they don't deny it. Transistors, RADAR, possibly jet aircraft. The stage is set for a national health care service simply because military hospitals produce such vastly better outcomes than the private sector ones. But now they're stuck in a two front "war" as both the Trusts and the European empires are demanding access to these wonders and the US government can't fight them both. With, yes, the prospect of organized labor (or, even more likely, organized crime) taking the decision out of their hands.

Re: New Reality Seeds
 

Look up Videntis on YouTube and watch his "What if the Kaiser overthrew Hitler." Then think of it as a Centrum plot to preserve monarchies and and empires.

Set the game in the 1970s with Homeline trying to break Centrum's stifling grip on the USA and restart the anti imperial movements.

Remember, in our history just about every respected and popular figure in European culture and society proclaimed that democracy had failed. Centrum needs a stagnant and corrupt USA to further discredit democracy. Jim Crow is also favored by Centrum as a means to discredit democracy.

This would be a fairly tough struggle and Centrum would have the resources of a triumphalist monarchical Europe to help them both materially and psychologically.

Re: New Reality Seeds
 

Periods in Chinese history were China breaks into several large competing states. The Manchu invasion that ended the Ming dynasty was massively violent. It is assumed that 90% of all of China's literature and written knowledge was lost in a few weeks! It took the whole of the Middle Ages to come close to doing the same thing to Greek and Latin literature.

Try this idea. The Manchu conquest of China could have shattered China instead of capturing it. Picture China broken into a dozen large mutually hostile states just as the European powers begin to reach into Asia.

One thing I could see is a long three-sided struggle between Britain, France and Russia to control China in the same way Britain controlled India. An interesting somewhat steampunky campaign could take place in this China at the time when Japan is entering into the conflict as a fourth contender in the colonial sweepstakes.

Re: New Reality Seeds
 

It occurs to me that this shattered China might be more culturally and economically vibrant than Qing China. The authority and cohesion of the Confucian Scholar Class would be greatly weakened. The Confucian Scholar Bureaucrats (CSB) deliberately disrupted many aspects of business, commerce, agriculture, and the popular arts, in order to have greater control over Chinese society.

In this shattered China setting the CSB couldn't assert the same control and might need to get the merchants and land owners onside to hold power. Also the traditional policy of the CSB to interfere with agriculture to force the people to work harder and keep them poor wouldn't be viable. Many factors that created vast poverty in China would be weakened dramatically.

This could be a much richer and more sophisticated China.

Re: New Reality Seeds
 

To be fair, the British got a bit lucky with India, even beyond the whole Mughal collapse.

It could be a more "self-strengthened" China too. Given how early the Qing Dynasty emerged, we're looking at a fragmented China beginning in the 17th (or maybe early 18th) century. With each state competing in an environment of interstate anarchy, it's plausible that by the 19th century events similar to the Perry expedition (or perhaps trading relations with Portugal) could give these states the impression Westernizing will bring great power to them.

Like, I could totally see the British swallowing a big piece of China in a world where that doesn't mean war with all of China. But at the same time, other states in China will be seeing how powerful Western arms are and without the conservative class of bureaucrats, some may conclude, "We need to change." And now China is Japan.

Re: New Reality Seeds
 

TGLS I see this shattered China as a place were the espionage, Wuxa, Swashbuckler, and Steampunk, genres meet and blend. A China were the Confucian Scholar Bureaucrats had to aid and promote commerce, agriculture, and the popular arts, rather than attack them as alternative powers in society, especially if the Confucian Scholar Bureaucrats see Western tech as vital to survival, could be very advanced and cause faster development in the West.

Re: New Reality Seeds
 

This, in and of itself, sounds like a great I-Cops mission to an echo - recover as much of the lost Chinese literature before the fall. Akin to saving scrolls from the Library of Alexandria before it burns. And could use the excuse that the works can be taken, not just copied, for why it has to be during the tumultuous time.

To give it a twist, Infinity assumes that the language-deficient Centrum would be nowhere near, but then gets hints of some advanced tech that looks like magic. Or is it actual magic, i.e. The Cabal?...

As others noted, it would be interesting to see one of the Chinese states rise - could be sort of akin to Japan's rise IRL. Indeed, while Japan might be having to fend off Russia in Manchuria, a state based around Shanghai could have been far enough for outsiders to stay free, but still connected enough to have absorbed Western knowledge, a-la Meiji Japan.

The actual European contest for China would seem to be an Oriental version of the Great Game, Russia vs. U.K. France and later Japan might be involved, but only in their local spheres of influence.

The third power might actually be U.S.A., blundering in late with lots of bravado & inexperience, but less Old World arrogance and stuck-in-their-ways. Indeed, America could be allied, or at least an inspiration for, a Shanghai Republic.


In Infinite Worlds, Bonaparte-1 - where Napoleon won, but the French Empire fell apart in the 1850s - Russia and America are quarreling over China. Similar sort of Western 'Great Game' - though in that case, it seems like post-French ex-colonies such as in India would be the ones rising, having absorbed Western knowledge & tech.

Re: New Reality Seeds
 

That sounds like a crazy piece of history. Where can I read more about it? A quick google isn't turning anything up. (about the literature destruction, no the Manchu conquest)