Grappled & Ranged Attacks: Martial Arts vs. Tactical Shooting vs. Technical Grappling
 

Greetings, all!

I'm seeing a threefold conflict on how ranged attacks are treated if the attacker is grappled. Basic Set is, of course, the simplest - it forbids ranged attacks entirely. Of course, Basic Set is assumed to be overriden by specialised rulebooks. Martial Arts seems content with the rule as-is (I haven't found a change in MA). Technical Grappling penalizes ranged attacks by the grappler's Trained ST (modified for relative ST of the victim), which basically means that only Ogre Slingers and fellas with over-the-top shooty skills can do a ranged attack while grappled. But then it turns out that Tactical Shooting allows ranged attacks out of a grapple - even if the weapon is grappled by winning a Quick Contest of DX or Retain Weapon against the grappler's DX, apparently without any extra penalty. Finally, maybe I missed something, but it seems that in TG, Retain Weapon can be used to regain weapon Grip ST, but the usage to resist the penalties to shoot while grappled is unaccounted for.

How do these get reconciled?

Thanks in advance!

Re: Grappled & Ranged Attacks: Martial Arts vs. Tactical Shooting vs. Technical Grapp
 

First: read the rule, and please quote it when you post these little tidbits, since you seem to have left out the key bit:

So the key is: GRAPPLE HIM BACK. If you can lower his Trained ST of his grapple, you can shoot better.

Re: Grappled & Ranged Attacks: Martial Arts vs. Tactical Shooting vs. Technical Grapp
 

Is the grapple back strategy even viable? Doing it with the arms will mean you can't do a ranged attack since now your arms are occupied; doing it with legs would give you a very uncomfortable posture, or even an outright fall; doing it with teeth is at ½ST and is difficult in terms of allowed targets (and thus penalties to grapple).

Re: Grappled & Ranged Attacks: Martial Arts vs. Tactical Shooting vs. Technical Grapp
 

Grapples are mutual in TG, so if you have your pistol and are grappled, you can attack to break free (to lower your own skill penalties) and attack to increase CP (to reduce his Trained ST). Rule Zero applies on this one, and bringing a pistol to bear should be possible. By TG-RAW, it IS possible to make ranged attacks.

Falling may well be the goal. Guard is a pretty viable position to resist a foe's grapple.

Re: Grappled & Ranged Attacks: Martial Arts vs. Tactical Shooting vs. Technical Grapp
 

Also, remember that most GURPS assumes grapple = no use of ranged weapons AT ALL. So TG is generous by that stance. If you feel that the book didn't go far enough, fine - simply penalize all ranged attacks by a number equal to the total CP inflicted by all grapples on the foe.

We'd introduced enough detail (or complexity, if you will) that "just use your foe's Trained ST" was better than nothing. By and large, we assumed that some of that penalty would be offset by trying to shoot in close combat, whcih means an AoA(Determined)/Telegraphic attack would offset +5 to hit for a pseudo-melee "ranged" attack with a gun. Shooting a foe in a controlled manner at 25yds while also grappled? I'm comfortable with "no frackin' way" in this case.

Re: Grappled & Ranged Attacks: Martial Arts vs. Tactical Shooting vs. Technical Grapp
 

Oh, I don't think TG is not generous enough. I don't know precisely where the most reasonable 'enough' lies. I'm just seeing that grappled ranged attacks are treated rather differently between B/MA, TS, and TG, and I wonder how they can be reconciled.

Actually, it would offset +8, since in Reach C/C,1 (depending on whether using a pistol or a rifle), ranged attacks get +4 from AoA (Determined). But there's also Bulk, and -4 for being grappled (B/MA/TS) or the variable penalty from TG.

Re: Grappled & Ranged Attacks: Martial Arts vs. Tactical Shooting vs. Technical Grapp
 

As FAQ-keeper, you of all should know there are many options in the various books that not only cannot be reconciled, but they're not supposed to be. The GM picks the rule appropriate to his game-world and the expectations of his players, and runs with it. If "can't shoot while grappled" is the right feel, than that's the operative rule. If "can shoot, but only at the guy grappling you" is right, that's operative. If he wants to say "you may shoot, but at the usual DX penalty for being grappled" then that's what it is.

Re: Grappled & Ranged Attacks: Martial Arts vs. Tactical Shooting vs. Technical Grapp
 

The situation is that we used to have separate books dealing with non-overlapping stuff. E.g. techbooks dealing with equipment, MA mostly dealing with combat (and a bit of equipment), Social Engineering dealing with social interaction etc. But as time goes by, overlaps appear, sometimes in unexpected places (e.g. HT and LT armour modifications, Technical Grappling and Tactical Shooting, or Supers and Transhuman Space [sic]).

Books also used to follow the 'when in conflict, use the latest', but this gets tricky when contradiction is only partial.

I'm fully expecting that once the questions will subside, there'll be grounds for adding a separate section to the oFAQ.

Re: Grappled & Ranged Attacks: Martial Arts vs. Tactical Shooting vs. Technical Grapp
 

Grapples are mutual, but what are you attacking with to increase CP? If you've got a pistol, sure, you can free a hand. But if you're trying to hold on to a carbine, you don't have any hands to use. I imagine you might still be able to use both arms in an attempt to break free despite this (especially if the grapple is of your arms or your gun), but could you really use them to get CP on your attacker?

Re: Grappled & Ranged Attacks: Martial Arts vs. Tactical Shooting vs. Technical Grapp
 

Short version is using arms without hands can be treated with No Manipulators if that level of grit is required. I think - from memory - that is a -30% to trained st. That's basically -1 per die.

Re: Grappled & Ranged Attacks: Martial Arts vs. Tactical Shooting vs. Technical Grapp
 

Interestingly, that looks to be the same both for No Fine Manipulators and for "Arms that do not have a hand, suction cups, gecko-hairs, or hooking claws – but enough of a grip to not qualify for No Fine Manipulators".

(No Manipulators necessarily precludes having limbs to grapple with.)

Re: Grappled & Ranged Attacks: Martial Arts vs. Tactical Shooting vs. Technical Grapp
 

Yeah, there's an erratum there I'm working w Steven on.

Specifically, drop "fine" and make it not enough to qualify for no Manipulators. I took there to be a continuum from NFM to NM to No Arms.

Re: Grappled & Ranged Attacks: Martial Arts vs. Tactical Shooting vs. Technical Grapp
 

Shouldn't that be +8? Determined attack for melee weapons is +4 and so is Telegraphic attack.

Re: Grappled & Ranged Attacks: Martial Arts vs. Tactical Shooting vs. Technical Grapp
 

Yes, it should.

Re: Grappled & Ranged Attacks: Martial Arts vs. Tactical Shooting vs. Technical Grapp
 

Doesn't No Manipulators imply no arms and then some? As Technical Grappling implies, you can't make any limb strikes with No Manipulators, and can't leg grapple.

Re: Grappled & Ranged Attacks: Martial Arts vs. Tactical Shooting vs. Technical Grapp
 

Rereading, you're right. No Manipulators is many things, among which is shorthand for SNAKE.

No Fine Manipulators is -40% and has the 0.3xST instead of 0.5xST impact for an arm (or 0.6xST for a pair of arms).

No Grasping Hand seems to say, currently, that "yes, you can manipulate objects, perform repairs, and whatnot, but your grip is still just as bas as with No Fine Manipulators." It is also currently worth -40%.

I'll take this offline, and see what we see.