Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Where are they? I know RPM is meant to be used at a wide variety of power levels, from 100 to at least 400 CP, but it was born at the high end of that power span, in GURPS Monster Hunters, so it's quite puzzling that there aren't any power-up abilities for RPM users. As if the only intended way forward is to increase Path skills (and Thaumatology) and buy a larger and larger Energy Reserve.

I have seen posts on here, for MH or RPM, suggesting a way to speed up rituals even further, with an extra sub-trait of the Ritual Adept advantage, but IIRC that was only 30 CP or so. That doesn't amount to much on the Monster Hunter CP scale.

Rather than blame the RPM PDF (which may have been written under page count constraints), I think it might be more constructive (and interesting) to challenge the community, ask for suggestions, from vague sketches to detailed write-ups, for power-ups for RPM, in the 20 to 200 CP cost range, amenable to Limitations or not.

What can you guys think up?

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Powers, powers of many sorts, whether magic so practised it becomes second-nature (like the Telekinesis on the Witch template), or Gadget-limitation magic items. Telekinesis, fireballs, the classic philosopher's stone to prevent aging... there's loads of room for power-ups beyond "I cast magic better."

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

To clarify: I'm interested in Power-Ups that interact with the RPM system.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

The only unmentioned power that comes to mind is Compartmentalized Mind. Combined with the faster casting advantage, you could potentially complete an entire ritual - or, heck, rituals - in a single second, without dipping into ER.

One potential advantage that I think would be interesting would be one which delays the penalties for multiple Energy Gathering attempts. So instead of having -1 every three rolls, it might only be every four, five, or more. No clue how to price that though.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Like these?

Gathering Mastery -- Improved Path Caps 4 (Only for faster energy gathering*) [4] + Natural Caster 4 (Only for faster energy gathering, -50%) [30] + Rules Exemption (The Natural Caster in this ability can stack with normal Natural Caster) [1]. Your attempts to gather ambient energy take only one second (or one minute for non-adepts), at no extra penalty. 35 points.

* This is a feature because perks cannot have limitations.

Mana Sponge -- Regeneration (Very Fast or Extreme; Energy Reserve Only, +0%; Magical, -10%) [90 or 135]. Your mana reserve refills automatically, even when you're in combat. The size of your mana reserve has no effect on your refill rate. 90 points for 1 MR/second, 135 points for 10 MR/second.

Unerring Missiles: -- Energy Reserve 60 (Mana Reserve; Only to enhance missile rituals, -50%; Only adds one of two types of Cosmic, -10%; Only rechargeable out of combat, -10%) [54]. Once per combat, you may declare that an external damage (i.e., "missile") spell has one of the following two effects: Either it ignores all DR or the target gets no active defense against it.

There is a limit to how large a missile you can empower in this way, depending on the damage type. For pi-, the limit is 33d; for cut or pi+, 12d+3; for cor, fat, imp, or pi++, 9d+6; and for everything else, 18d.

Technically, this power-up burdens the caster with another 60 mana reserve to refill, but since refills are assumed to happen during downtime, the GM should consider this usable once per combat unless two combats happen within a very short time of each other (in which case, play out the refill rolls). 54 points.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Unering Missiles is good for all sorts of ideas!

I was thinking Compartmentalized Mind as a major Power up.
Leech could be another one, esecially for Vampires and Necromancers though its probably not worth the cost in most situations.
Some of the enhancements and advantages from Thaumatology are good too.
Variable Energy Access [50] to tap Threshold magic as well.
That can represent Spirit Assisted or other Supernatural sources.
Mana Enhancer or Damper and Static (with immunity).
Stable Casting (+40%) and Subtle Aura (+20% or +40%) Thaumatology p 28 might need tweaking but are worth a look at.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Steadfast Magic: Whenever botch or quirk a spell, you may opt to instead turn it into a critical success! You may do this once per hour of game play at level one, once per 30 minutes at level two, and once per ten minutes at level three. At level four you may affect other casters instead of yourself. 20/40/60/72 points.

Statistics: Super Luck (Accessibility, Only for turning ritual path magic gathering rolls into critical failures or failures into critical successes, -70%; Magic, -10%) [20/level]. At level four add the following as a alternate ability of Super Luck (Accessibility, Only for turning ritual path magic gathering rolls into critical failures or failures into critical successes, -70%; Magic, -10%; Wishing, +0%) [12/level].

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Magical Knack: You aren't a full-fledged mage, but you have a 'knack' with a specific effect as used in Ritual Path Magic, allowing you to cast spells based upon that effect. Use all of the normal rules for RPM, but your 'knack' only applies to a single, specific path and effect! At level one, you act as if you had the relevant path skill at IQ; add one for every level thereafter. 10 + 5/level.

Statistics: This is built as Thaumatology (Specific Path and Effect Only) [4] + Path Skill (Specific Effect Only) [4] + Magery 0 (Specific Path and Effect Only, -60%) [2]. Further levels are built as Higher Purpose (Specific Path and Effect) [5/level].

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Nice! I'd toss in a mana reserve specific to the ritual as well. I'd say a ER for one specific ritual would be something like: Energy Reserve (Mana Reserve; One Ritual Only, -80%) [0.6/level] so a standard Fireball ritual would cost a extra 11 points to have a reserve that will let you fire off one near instantly.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Yeah, that'd be a possibility, though I'm unsure how to price it. You don't usually get a price reduction for energy reserve if it's restricted to only one power. It'd probably have to be the normal 3 cp/point.

I did forget to mention that you can also act as if you were a Ritual Adept with your Knack if you spend another 16 points.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

One Ritual Only is definitely a -80% limitation. So Ritual Adept (Foo ritual only, -80%) would be a mere 8 points. A fantastic deal for a one-trick pony!

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

True, though the Knack isn't for a single ritual only, it's a single effect. So any ritual that uses just Create Energy (for example) can be done with that Knack. Hence why I built it as a -60% limitation instead of -80%.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Ah-ha! I misread, apologies. Still totally worth it, that would be perfect for a Healer type actually. Restore Body effects and all. Yeah, I rather like that. So ER would cost 1.2/level which is a really great deal actually.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

I think this goes here more then anywhere else.
I want a power up or idea for a race of trees that can gather and store a vast amount of energy. They do not need to do it fast.

Originally they had ER for the regular magic system and I am looking to make the change to RPM but want to keep the concept. Each tree is a central aspect of an elf village and they can gather energy from the earth and sun and store it for use by the village. I do not want them to be major casters, though I am ok with some being able to use magic. However they are primarily support for a village or Dryad. The concept can be extended to other things as well.
a high ER can still work but does anyone have other ideas?

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Firstly, that's a really cool idea. Consider it yoinked.

To answer your question, I must ask my own. How is the energy accessed? If the tree is the source but does not cast, I'd treat it simply as a power source that can be drawn on under certain conditions suitable to your setting. If only certain individuals among magic users can do it, it might be an energy reserve with an accessibility limitation. Otherwise, if the tree can cast magic and is a PC, then it does sound like gobs of slowly regenerating er. The only alternative would be Magery levels, but that would increase its skill cap and conditional ritual cap as well, which doesn't sound like what you've described.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

You could have the Tree able to gather energy, and only gather energy. Rather than build it up as a giant ER battery, build it as something like this:

RPM Battery - 10/level

Statistics: Magery (Assisting Others Only, -60%) [4/level] + Natural Caster (Assisting Others Only, -60%) [6/level]

Allow Natural Caster to be taken as many times as you'd like. You'd also probably want to buy Thaumatology and the nine path skills at 1 point and Natural Caster of 3, for a total cost of [22]. The tree would be able to cast spells at IQ-3, or collaborate with others in a spell as if they had the casting skill at IQ+RPM Battery Level.

Note that this is still pretty expensive, though.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Thank you and your welcome to it :)
The race can be PCs so I want a point cost for it. In the setting much of Magic comes from the sun and is absorbed by the earth and the trees are able to act as a middle stage and draw upon both sources.


Hmm, interesting. Though it means they can do this over and over again where before they could be exhausted for a bit. Also the Natural Caster Talent is too broad for my desires here. On the other hand it means the Tress can represent sources of Wisdom or Supernatural Calmness or something too.
This does make them better then other assistants, even other elves since even a young tree with only 1 level of RPM Battery can provide extra energy and not give the assistant hit penalty. Higher levels it gets even better and very quickly.


I am not too worried on the point cost though I want it manageable, especially since it helps others more then them.
The original version had an ER with CM (Dedicated Controls) so others could tap it.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

RPM now has rules for mana levels what about making the trees natural mana enhancers with a wide selective area? They would not precisely gather energy so much as concentrate it making it much easier for your village or Dryad gather energy in the area.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

I prefer this take on it, myself. If the idea is that the trees make it easier for the villagers to access and use energy, then it would be simpler to just make them radiate that energy as if they were a Place of Power.

Since "high mana" equates to POP+5, and enough Mana Enhancer to get there from normal mana is 100 points, it would be reasonable to revamp Mana Enhancer in an RPM-focused game to 20 points/level, maximum 5, with the level reflecting your POP bonus. This is all off the top of my head, though; please don't consider it stamped with official approval until I've had a chance to look at it when I'm more focused. :)

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

FWIW, Boss, this is actually what I've done. It works more or less exactly as expected. I have a player who has it - it was in the original MS of that RPM document I showed you for Pyramid, but I took it out because the book wasn't out yet. I suppose I'll put it back in. :-)

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Overall I like the breakdown but at 20 points a level I would probably like an extra point of IQ better is my gut feeling with as few conditional use (only to gather energy) mental skills a place of power bumps by default. For 20 points I would want a mana level to do something that bumping my IQ can't do. I admit I am late to the RPM system but I didnt see that in the system...at least before my morning coffee ;)

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

It can - it helps other people as well.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Yeah, the caster in my campaign kept getting touched my other folks wanting to use her advantage...and she kept beating them up. She balanced the point cost with a Enemy group and it worked quite well.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Only for people you are carrying though before you buy in area effect. The original mana enhancer affected several hundred IQ skills RPM affects significantly fewer by default. I am not saying it needs to be a lot lower but I think with this approach mana levels might either need a bit more detailing/fleshing out for RPM to get full value of this advantage or the cost might need to brought down to about 15 points a level.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

These trees sound like the Trees of Life from the Dark Sun setting (supposedly rare, except for one Dragon-King having an orchard of them, I seem to recall... and an artifact that acts as a "Bag of Seeds"...).

Basically, instead of sacrificing terrain (and I'm STILL not reconciled to the "1 per acre" idea...), you get power from these mystical trees.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Or that touch you. Keep in mind you could also buy Natural Caster at 15/level so if you concern is a boast in Path levels it is still not being addressed. The thing with a Place of Power is that they stack with everything else and others can use them. That's huge. You'd need IQ+1 (Area Effect, 2 yards, +50%; Affects Others, +50%) [40/level] or Natural Caster +1 (Area Effect, 2 yards, +50%; Affects Others, +50%) [30/level] to achieve that same effect. So no, 20/level is about right and works great.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Actually it says you and people or things that you are carrying. I prefer your ruling a bit more though and it would go a long way of offsetting my concerns for the price.

[QUOTE=Ghostdancer;1662427]Keep in mind you could also buy Natural Caster at 15/level so if you concern is a boast in Path levels it is still not being addressed.[QUOTE=Ghostdancer;1662427]

Natural Caster is why I am thinking that 20 points a level base line with a base radius of effect "you and everything you are carrying" might be slightly overpriced at 20 points a level when it modifies fewer skills, and then only for energy accumulation

Correct

Almost correct Area of effect for Mana Enhancer begins with essentially area of effect [Personal] everything you are carrying, the first level of area of effect [50%] only gives a radius of 1 yard. You need another level of Area of effect to bump it up to two yards for a 100%, which I believe kicks the math up for identical levels of area of effect to 40 poins a level, though it would only be 30 points a level to affect characters within range to touch the Mana Enhancer.

If RPM changes Mana enhancer to being touch based rather than everything I am carrying I think it shifts the math enough to work for RPM a lot better.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Which leads me to believe that people touching you are also affected. Its a logical assumption - playing it any other way does not make the price worth the effect of the ability.


And yet, those same skills can do most every spell in the standard system and many that it can't do. You also need to remember this is only a +1 bonus that others can benefit from. High Mana and Very High Mana are way better deals than anything a Place of Power could give. I suppose you could create a specific talent that covered only Path skills and Thaumatology for 10/level, and then add area of effect/affect others....but that would be 20 points... Still, I've used 20/level for the past 10 or 12 months and the two character that have had it have had happy players, not grumbling ones.


Always on "aura" effects have already been stated by Kromm as basically being Aura (+80%) + Always On (-40%) + Melee Attack C (-30%). So...that follows with Mana Enhancer. Again, if you are requiring characters with Mana Enhancer to physically hold other casters to get the bonus...well I've never done it that way, I've never seen anyone do it that way. Touching should be plenty.

See above.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Its a logical extension but I am not sure if it is supported by RAW which says you and people/things you are carrying, which implies they affect your encumbrance level. Keep in mind originally the advantage was their for things like letting your magic items still function in low mana zones (or if you had the second level of the advantage) in no mana zones since they were turned off if their skill level was reduced below 15. It would also allow personal buffs still function in low/no mana zones, and the auto refresh your fatigue pools in high enough mana zones.

That is very much my concern right now. RPM can shift/clarify the rules a bit for what Mana Enhancer means/does in a RPM game, and could certainly include the explicit ruling of characters touching you are consided to get your bonus as well.

Another possibility would be if mana levels affected what was considered a Lesser/or Greater effect for a campaign, then I could easily see it being worth at least 20 points a level.

Absolutely correct, and a major reason I am really enjoying playing around with RPM a great deal.

Not doubting that your players are happy at all ghostdancer, and I certainly respect your experience with the system. I do wonder if the rules as currently written for mana enhancer work completely cleanly for RPM without shifting their prices around a bit. Just as we both agreed in an another thread that the modifier for Solitary Magery (-40%) needed to probably be reduced to (-20%) for RPM since certain basic assumptions are different for each system.


Specific rules tend trump general rules though in gaming and mana enhancer uses the specific word of "people you carry", get the benifit. I get the ruling and to be honest it has been a long time since I have run a game featuring a mana enhancer who bought it with the idea of helping someone else out rather than as insurance for their Wizard to be able to still cast in a low mana zone/no mana zone.

I like your ruling on this but the fact that the first level of mana enhancer gives you a radius of 1 yard a level rather than 2 yards a level implies to me that the 1 yard radius was chossen to reperesent people being able to make incidental contact with your character to get the "touch" benifit in play.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

I've always played it like this -even when I was using basic magic. Otherwise...it just doesn't make sense.

If you are asking me if that' how it should be done with RPM? Yeah, I think it fits just fine (unless PK would like to chime in here). It works. I've proven that it works with hours of game play. Nothing got broken.


More than that! The difference between a Lesser and Greater effect is triple the cost. If I were pricing a hypthetical advantage that did this I would say....120 points a level. At minimum. Maybe 150. I say 120 points because Control (Magic) is worth 40 points a level and I'd say about 3 levels are needed to reduce the cost from x3 to x1. So something that out, maybe 40 points a level as a advantage reducing the cost of a Greater effects multiplier by 1. So a ritual with 2 Greater effects cast by someone with this one level of this advantage would cost x4, not x5.

:-) Ditto.

And I'm not truly to bully you! Or anyone else for that matter, I just want people to have fun playing games. And if I can help with that...well, it makes me happy. Keep in mind that that halving applies to all Limitations on Magery.


I've always used it as "If you touch a mana enhancer and you get the bonus."

That makes sense.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

I never did and players were still taking the advantage because certain Magic switches were turned on or off based on the local mana level. Normal magic items are by raw turned off in low mana zones and you have to purchase the more expensive skill 20 items for use in low mana, and even the best raw magic items were turned off in no mana zones. The advantage essentially turned that switch off for the player.

Additionally casters could usually replinish their mana levels every turn with Mana Enhancer level 2 (essentially Extreme Regeneration Fatigue) and got a +5 to their skill level which would reduce the fatigue cost of a spell by -1 for personal buff spells. Yeah failures/crit failures were nastier but they could generally count on it not being TPK nasty as much as a challenge moment for most games.

For RPM Mana Enhancer is a straight +1 to your energy accumulation rolls and no other campaign switches are turned on or off, and thus has to be compared to other ways to purchase just a straight conditional +1 to skill.



Its not that I think it would be broken, but rather or not the player was getting full value from the 20 points compared to spending it any other way to get that +1 Place of Power bump to his skill levels in RPM. Ruling that it essentially gets the 1 yard radius enhancement rather than the more restrictive [Personal] area of effect I think goes a long way to alleviating my personal concerns when looking at the games math.

What I never wanted was the price of mana enhancer RPM turning into rpms version of the Regrowth advantage which was incorrectly priced at 40 points and later largely replaced with the Unbreakable Bones advantage for 15 points. Or the Gunslinger advantage which got a text expansion in a later booklet to make the 25 point investment a better deal than it was initially, once players started to really dissect the gunslinger advantages math on the forums.


Interesting, and something I think I am going to want to look into. Definately was not thinking about the Control or Create advantages for RPM prior to this conversation :)


Definately did not feel bullied nor meant to imply such in my comments. As far as limitations on magery I am roughly cosidering halve value in my campaign or full value of the limitation if charms have to obey the magery limitation as well.

To the best of my recollection I never did at my table but we havent had a mana enhancer character/campaign that it would make sense in for a number of years. Probably in part becaue we have played a number of different systems over the years and the last few fantasy games I have run in gurps I have wanted to feature Powers more than Magic in the games.

Rarely and with copious amounts of coffee I occassionaly make sense...not with any great frequency mind you but on occassion ;)

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

So it was more a Unusual Background than a regular advantage...well that could explain your experience right there.

Yeah.


Except that it's something that can be shared. Also, it's stackable with regular skill so if you're GM enforces limits, this lets you ignore them.


[QUOTE=Nosforontu;1662498]Its not that I think it would be broken, but rather or not the player was getting full value from the 20 points compared to spending it any other way to get that +1 Place of Power bump to his skill levels in RPM. Ruling that it essentially gets the 1 yard radius enhancement rather than the more restrictive [Personal] area of effect I think goes a long way to alleviating my personal concerns when looking at the games math.

That could work.

20 points a level for a +1 Place of Power that's mobile (which most Places of Power aren't) is a helluva deal.


I happily admit that while I've toyed with it a bit, Refplace was the one who made me think about it more than I initially had.


Charms would have to obey the limitation regardless because you're the one being limited to begin with and you're creating it.


Ahh, yeah. Magic as powers is fun, but it gets kind of boring (to my players at least).


:-) I'm not considered sapeitn (IQ 6+) till I've had my first cup at least.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Looking back at it, I would say yeah Mana Enhancer was used either more as as an unusual background character element or for those characters who were paranoid about their concept being nerfed in gurps. Essentially warriors who felt they were equipment dependent or casters who did not want to be worthless in a no mana/low mana zone. Especially towards the begining of 4e when we were still somewhat used to 3Es cap of level 3 magery.

Yep and if the GM is enforcing limits the bonus does hold greater value, of course part of the reason for this conversation was that we both are quibbling a bit on just how easy the default mana enhancer advantage is to share ;)

In that case thanks Refplace as well, I have been looking into them for a Fatespinner powers build idea, but hadn't stetched the idea to RPM as well.

I understand they would have the limitation when creating the charm but would they also have that limitiation once activated as well? For example if a RPM caster had night only he could obviously only create a charm at night but are you saying that he could only activate previously created charms at night as well?


It was less magic as powers but more a case of cool supernatural power sets are the rule of thumb for this game instead of actual magic, except for the Avatar Last airbender inspired Elemental Wizards who were a campaign side note.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Ahhh. Well that explains that then.


True. :-)

I think it started out with me looking at Control (Teleporation) in the first Infinite Worlds Pyramid and thinking "Wow, this would be a interesting way to use RPM." and then Refplace posted something that night and I got to talking with him about it. Then a year or so later we got to chatting via email about it while discussing another subject. Overall, it works quite well. I allow each level to add to +1 or -1 to Path skill rolls or reduce the Greater Effects multiplier by a single level. You could also reduce it further to specialize in a specific effect, path, or even ritual:

Very Common: All magic in the setting. 30 points/level.
Common: Specific path or effect. 20 points/level.
Occasional: A specific combination of effects (i.e., Sense Mind), a narrow focus of a specific Path (e.g., all fire effects from Path of Energy). 15 points/level.
Rare: A specific ritual. 10 points/level.

I might be tempted to reduce each level by 5 points, but I don't know what that would look like in game play.

I've treat it that way. Charms and conditionals are bound by the effects of the Magery. You might want to exclude them for the same reason magic excludes such effects on enchanted items: ease of game play.


:-) Coolness.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Yeah it was our expectations that the skill bumps from the advantage was almost a side note to the value of having magic stuff still working when normally it wouldnt.


This is something I am definately going to have to play around with a bit, maybe stat out a few different power path options with it.



I've treat it that way. Charms and conditionals are bound by the effects of the Magery. You might want to exclude them for the same reason magic excludes such effects on enchanted items: ease of game play.


Thanks, it was essentially a campaign world that was high in supernatural content but with fairly low magic (salt water was a low mana zone, the deep ocean was a no mana zone etc). The idea was that every 5 centuries or so the dominant Supernatural template of the world would rise and fall only to be displaced by the next template.

The characters were fledgling Noble Dead which 13 years ago was the dominant template which had been overran by the "Dawnbringer" essentially a vampire esque fantasy game only with the characters playing for the loosing side and that most of the time Animate Dead rather than Noble Dead would be created (character must critically succeed on an average of HT/Will roll to become Noble Dead), and a campaign assumption that all starting characters had critted.

The other assumption was that Undeath took 13 years to process because that was the length of time for the very first Undead character to be raised in that game verse.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Yeah, and there is nothing wrong with that. But bonuses to Path skills are huge in RPM, even a +1 bonus.


I had a player who had a character with it, though he blew himself up and died two sessions in. Lots of 18s back to back.


Sounds like a book I read once, but alas we are derailing the thread. So no more of this I think. :-)

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

With that in mind I think I will step out of this thread for a bit until PK posts his value for Mana Enhancer for RPM. I think both of our cases are more less fixed and made at this point until acted upon by an outside opinion. In which case I suspect either of us might have a few new tweak ideas to the concept

Overall of the ideas that you have offered for a 20 point cost overall I like the idea of a 10 point Talent tweaked out for area effect the best as it would package a reputation bonus to it as well which seems fitting for a walking Place of Power. I probably would stick -20% modifier like Nature on it and counter balance it with Selective 20% in play to keep the value roughly equal.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Okay. No problem.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Well thanks for the acknowledgement and thoughts on Control (Magic). That thread is around here somewhere and I recall debating with a few people on ther cost till everyone posting got the reason it was at 40 was it pretty much covered everything in a fantasy setting. But the point cost was never blessed so is not RAW, just what I thought was fair.

FYI I built my Magic as Powers system as Rank 1 to 5 with each Rank a level of Control so 40 to 200 points and then spells as AA off that. So you could possibly even make B-Dog happy with level 1 to level 5 spells.

As for the Mana Enhancer an other stuff, keep in mind my mention of CM (Dedicated Controls) to get around the Affects Others enhancement.
The reason I came up with that was I did not want to have to buy the ER with enhancements that increased the cost to let others use your pool.
A flat 10 points seemed workable and treat the Trees like a vehicle or building.
I think 20 points is ok for the advantage but not sure I like it for fluff reasons.
So far the Natural caster and Magery seem the best fit for the setting and concept. It means my trees dont power a few big rituals a day so much a there likely to power a lot of rituals and can be used by most everyone in the village at one time or another. This actually makes them more useful and more a valuable resource to protect which I like.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Speaking of Compartmentalized Mind what do you guys think using it only to Gather Energy is valued at? Or only to use with RPM?
I tend not to give very much but am curious on others views.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Gathering energy is basically the only thing you use Concentrate maneuvers for in RPM, so there isn't really a difference between "RPM Only" and "Gather energy only".

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

That seems closer to fair then I expected. Still not sure I agree on the No Mental Seperation value but ts RAW and in multiple places so I'll deal.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Of course! I think you posted it first, even though I'm pretty sure I was toying with it before that. And it is a good idea.

Yeah, PK posted that earlier, I suggested a -50% or so value, because that is what I was using in my games. Though I can see how it can be too good a deal.

Actually No Mental Separation is about right IMHO.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

I am thinking of allowing Super Symbol Drawer perk

Super Symbol Drawer gives +1 to suitable casting rolls and thaumatology knowledge checks when the caster follows the following restrictions
1. Uses symbol drawing for 1 minute (modified by time spent rules)
2. Grandly draws symbols, either in the air (-4 penalty) or on a suitable surface (such as the ground with a stick, or on the wall with a marker), the symbols must be suitably grand as in some ways they are a prop much like a grimoire, no smaller than (the smaller of caster SM or SM 0, so a pixie could get away with say a normal sheet of paper sized set of symbols, but a human or a dragon would need to cover a human sized area)
3. Makes their symbol drawing check. +1 on success, -1 on failure, +2 on crit success, -2 and an automatic quirk (if the spell succeeds at all) on crit failure. On a knowledge check, a crit fail is still -2, but adds a bit of misinformation as well
4. It must be done right then right now before casting/pondering something, cannot be done ahead of time

Inspired heavily by this thread (I thought Worminghall Symbol Drawing was awesome and wanted to use it for RPM back then)

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=98862

Symbol Drawing just doesn't get the RPM love, its only real use is preparing for -1 casting for non adepts, and they can just use Thaumatology instead (and considering they need the Thaumatology to cast the spells in the first place its hard to see why they really want Symbol Drawing to)

I think that it being time consuming, obvious, limited in application, requiring an otherwise dubious skill and allowing observers to figure out what your doing makes this perk category (note, as for allowing it to influence thaumatology knowledge checks also, in movies we always see people trying to figure out knotty problems at the blackboard, so I think symbol drawing makes sense there to)

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

I don't see anything wrong with this right off, but I havent had much sleep. I'd change the name personally, something like "Symbol Mastery" or the like.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Okay, cost to convert one path's Greater adjustments to Lesser?

E.g., Amplify Injury (Thau: RPM, pg 39) has Greater Destroy Body. How much to convert that to Lesser Destroy Body (reducing the cost to 21, instead of 63)?

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

40 points / Greater Effect reduced in this way.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Well, if it's just for a specific ritual, you'd need Control Amplify Energy 3 [30]. You could also buy Control Destroy Body 3 [45] which would affect all rituals with those parameters, or Control Destroy or Body 3 [60] which would affect all Destroy or Body effects, or Control Magic 3 [120] which could reduce one Greater effect to normal cost. Now keep in mind, that these can only affect other people, not yourself, per Pyramid #3/20 Infinite Worlds (p. 7). Though "Cosmic, Affects Self" (+50%) would negate that. Though it would increase the costs quite a bit...

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Note that that could also increase the cost of someone else's rituals.

Also, I feel like it should be 2 levels, not 3; each level would allow you to increase or reduce the multiplier by one (to a minimum of 1).

If it's just for decreasing, that might be a -25% modifier, which when you include a 'self only, +25%' version of that cosmic modifier leads to a fair price of +0% for just decreasing the price of your own abilities. This would cost 2 FP every time you used it and an IQ roll (or IQ-based skill roll), unless you bought that off with Reduced Fatigue Cost and No Die Roll Required.

So, something like:

Reduced Greater Effects Multiplier - [Varies]
With a moment's concentration and an expenditure of individual energy, you can reduce the Greater Effects Multiplier of your next ritual by one per level to a minimum of one.

Whenever you'd like to invoke this, make a roll against Thaumatology and pay 2 FP. If you succeed, your next ritual will have its Greater Effects Multiplier reduced by your level in this advantage.

The price per level depends upon the scope of the abilities you can use this with:

Specific Ritual: [10/level]
Specific Path and Effect: [15/level]
Specific Path or Specific Effect: [20/level]
All Paths and Effects: [30/level]


---

I'm unsure on pricing. It may be a little too cheap; better price might be 15-20-30-40 or maybe double at 20-30-40-60, though if I went with double pricing I'd probably do so by using No Die Roll Required and eliminating the skill roll.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Why 3? I thought we only needed 2 levels of Control (Magic) to reduce an x3 multiplier to x1. Maybe I misread upthread.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Okay, Control (Psi) lets you add a level to a power per 10 full levels of Control. Control with Natural Phenomena allows you to add +1 or -1 effects every three levels. I figure the first level lets you give a bonus to gathering rolls, the second lets you reduce a the Greater effects multiplier by 1, two by two (effectively removing one Greater effect). Ive used this in my last couple of game sessions and it feels about right in game. Langy is free to do it his way! He's the GM, if he says it works that way, then it does. I think its two generous. Two levels of Control (Specific Ritual) equal two levels of Magery (Ritual Path) - which allow him to ignore a Greater effect for one ritual. That could have a Archimedes-like effect if you pick the right ritual. I'll look at this thread again in the morning and see if anything shakes loose, I've fried my brain writing all day (something like 10,000 words) so I might be seeing this wrong. Regardless, that's the method I've been using.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

That's fair enough. I'll scan back unthread and figure out where I got the 40 per greater effect. I swear I saw it from you or pk somewhere. I could be wrong.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

PK hasn't chimed in on this to my knowledge. I believe Refplace quoted 40/level

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

You're right. I was mixing up your and his posts and scrambling them. While I'm not necessarily against the high point cost for doing craziness for free, I'm just not totally feeling the three levels for a -2 reduction in multiplier. Even if one level gives a bonus to gather attempts, does it stop doing this when you reduce a greater effect to a lesser? Something just feels off about it. I'll give it some more thought in the morning and see if something springs to mind.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Yep, 40/level for Control (Magic) is my pricing.
I hadnt used it to reduce Greater Effects to leser but have used it for +1 to rolls and skills as if each level counted as Magery. This contradicts the use of Control (Psi) in the Pyramid article GhostDancer referenced but IMHO Mana is an external force your drawing in so it feels appropriate to me.

I feel it is pretty darn pricey for that bonus but it can be used to lower or raise others skills and for Power Defense.
Using it for reducing Greater Effects to Lesser is an interesting idea.
If it were magery at that price it would be worth +4 to gathering energy and 12 ER. Making that worth 1 Greater Effect seems ok but I never tested it.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

I want to point out something here: Control of all EM Radiation is 25/level (which is easily a pervading force as magic) and God-Like Control, that is Control (Time) or Control (Space) is 30points per level. So making it cost 40/level (unless there is a bundled UB or other trait) is unfair to the players. That said, I might be able to get behind something like

Control (Magic; Cosmic, Affects Self, +50%) [45/level] and allow only archmages or those with lots of points invested in magical Paths in the like to take it.

As for it's bonus reduction to per level - keep in mind that Control (Psi) 20/level gives a +1 to skill rolls per level and a +1 to power levels per 10 levels. That's... a lot really for psis, I know, I have a game where there is a character who basically has a Meta-Psi power and he's nasty against other psis. I mean, worse than anti-psis because he can cause them to critically fail their skill rolls. I originally used 10 levels = reduction of Greater effects by one multiple (x3 becomes x2, x2 becomes x1), but it didn't work out. So I instead increased the base cost to 30/level and treated it like God-Like control, but used the Natural Phenomena rate for Greater effects (level 1 does nothing, level 2 reduces it a multiple, level 3 reduces it the multiple by 2, etc.) - it works almost perfectly. It's also easy to remember: Each level that reduces a Greater effect by one step coincides with the number of levels needed. So Control 3 (Magic) reduces one Greater effect, Control 5(Magic) reduces two, Control 7 (Magic) reduces three, and so on.

Anyways, that's my reasoning. My players balked at the originally pricing, but no so much now. I'd say that having the ability to affect just yourself or just others is worth +0% and doing both is +50%. And thanks to you guys, I've started another article for on how to use Control (Magic) with RPM. :-D

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Hey, you were asking for topics to write about a week or so ago!

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Ask and the universe provides. :-)

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

I have been mulling this over and also considering the article in Infinite Worlds.
My original thoughts were that A) I wanted Magic to have a high buy in cost so mages are less common. Magery on a 250 point budget is too easy to take as a tertiary power and still be good at it.
B) Magic is a pervading force in most fantasy and able to be used for just about anything. So a level above Godlike (Time) or Godlike (Space) seemed appropriate as Control (Magic) an do both and more.

However the utility comes into question.
Sure you can buy any power you want as an AA and in this case a higher base cost can be useful.
However what it actually does without an AA really should be a major factor in its cost.
Consider the +1 bonus or penalty to other skills or resistance rolls, Power Defense (Using Super Blocks and parries from Powers) and ability to contribute to other types of magic use or defence in various ways.
Even Power Stunts are really offset by the base cost and should not factor into a higher base cost just for the option.
I think I will change it for my campaign after mulling the above over.
It means redoing my spells so I have Rank 1 to 10 instead of Rank 1 to 5 for the same base cost. Trade in my Pentaphillia for more variety in spell levels.
Some of those Rank 1 spells I really wanted weaker anyhow :)

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

I'm thinking of just using ghostdancer's pricing scheme for an ability that just reduces the multiplier for greater effects, and keep control (magic) it's own separate advantage. I like the potential in keeping control (magic) separate from "just" ignoring greater effect multipliers.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

:-) Glad I could help.

Keep in mind that's a limitation. You're nuking half the usability of the advantage by not allowing it to give bonuses to Path rolls. I'd eyeball it as maybe -20% or -10% - Yes, it's a big part of the power, but knocking down Greater effects is huge. Consider adding the +50% enhancement to let you affect others and yourself and you have a advantage that I'd call balanced. So the cost would be:


Very Common: All magic in the setting. 39 points/level.
Common: Specific path or effect. 26 points/level.
Occasional: A specific combination of effects (i.e., Sense Mind), a narrow focus of a specific Path (e.g., all fire effects from Path of Energy). 20 points/level.
Rare: A specific ritual. 13 points/level.



Going the opposite route if the Control can only give bonuses I'd call that about -50% or -60%, but -50% feels better.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Is a +1 that big of a path bonus? Assuming I understand your pricing scheme correctly, at third level for 120 CP, you get a +1 to Path rolls and can ignore up to one greater effect for any ritual. That +1 is miniscule beside the other benefit (it would cost 10 CP as an All-Paths Talent). Granted not all rituals have greater effects, but if you're specifically spending 120 points on a power-up that lets you ignore a greater effect, you are probably planning on using a lot of greater effects. And if you aren't aiming for the reduction in greater effect multiplier, why are you spending 40 points for a +1 to Path skills? Heck, with 9 path skills, its cheaper to just raise each one by a level (only 36 CP) or just buy up IQ by 1 (20 CP).

While I get you wanting to add in some utility at that price level, I really don't see being able to reduce other people's greater effect multipliers as being consistent with the intent behind this sort of power-up - "I'm freakin' awesome at magic and can do flashy things with it!" To add back in some of the lost utility, I suggest ignoring the need to Concentrate for a second, spend 2 FP and make an IQ roll to use this. So it becomes an always-on passive ability to cast some really flashy stuff more cheaply.

Then use Control (Magic) for all the fun stuff you are mentioning, like affecting others' greater effects multipliers, gather magic, successfully cast magic, etc. That would represent your ability to manipulate the ambient mana field itself.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

You get +1 per level of your Control. Again, Control (Psi) gives a +1 to psi skills per level and +1 to psi powers per 10 levels. So if you're going to keep a analogue to that, you need to keep it at least moderately sane.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Okay, I think I'm understanding this better. I'm sorry if I've been kind of thick, but I don't have the infinite worlds pyramid issue you're drawing Control (Psi) from. If I understand this correctly, everything from Control (__) is the same, except that instead of the rules for effects, you grant a +1 to psi skills per level and +1 to psi powers per 10 levels? So I'd still have to add Reduced FP Cost, Reduced Time, and potentially Cosmic, No Roll Required to make it something assumed to always affect the person with it? So something like this:

Control (Magic) (Cosmic, No Roll Required, +100%; Reduced FP Cost 2, +40%; Reduced Time, +20%; Magical, -10%) [50/level].

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Actually, those effects replace the standard rules for Control. You don't need Reduced FP cost - Control doesn't cost FP, Create does. I don't know if I'd add Magical to this, because your ability is only usable in areas of magic. That would bring up the cost to 66 points/level. And you'd still only be able to affect others or yourself, to do both you'd need to add that +50% modifier bringing the cost up to 81 points/level. The more I look at this, the more I'm wondering if the Greater effects multiplier should be reduced every three levels. I only got to use this a couple of times in my game and only a small subset of effects (Control (Restore)). I think I'm going to need to run some numbers and see how it looks. Give me a bit and I'll post my results.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Ah, you dont have access to the same material.
Control (X) in Powers gives a bonus or penalty in typical use.
Control (Psi) is a minor variation in Pyramid that does the same but also grants a power boost with enough levels if you like. It also has a limitation that you cant boost your own skill as they are internal.
I would love to copy the whole thing but of course its not my place.

So breaking it down...
Control (Magic) can give a +1 to abilities with Control (Psi) as ther precedent.
GhostDancer thinks you can add +50% Cosmic to even boost your own skill.
I think its not needed because with Magi your manipulating ambient energy, especially if your affecting Gather Energy rolls.
+1 IQ would do the same but only you and the only for magic is offset by the Affects Others Enhancement.
Ghost Dancer then adds the reduction in Greater Effects to make it more useful and it is a nice mechanic. Not sure what the value is on it though or if Control (Magic) is lowered from my initial suggestion of 40 to the 20 pricing as suggested above if the value is correct.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

I'm glad my fumblings may have helped! I'm curious to see what you come up with. If this is creeping toward a 100~ CP ability, I'd start arguing that each level should reduce/increase a greater effect multiplier by 1 greater effect.

I would think you can easily swamp only affecting others for only affecting yourself as a +0% feature. If anything, Control (Psi) (Self-Only) might be a limitation, based on things like the cost of a Talent that covers the 10 skills that govern RPM usage; your suggestion using IQ looks to support the 10 points-to-boost RPM rolls for myself thing.

That leaves 10 points/level not doing anything in Control (Magic). To this, Ghostdancer ascribes reducing Greater Effect multipliers. If you reduce one Greater Effect per 3 levels, that works out to a 30-point advantage split over three levels. In other words, 15 points per -1 reduction to the GE multiplier. This seems really cheap to me.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

I ended up using this thread as a spring board for something in a Pyramid article. Thanks guys! Especially Refplace and Humabout. Hopefully you'll get to see the results Real Soon™. :-0

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Anytime! I sure hope that's not Blizzard Entertainment's version of "Real Soon™!"

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Me too. :-)

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Here's a little perk that might be interesting:

Natural Charmer - You are a natural at making charms and do not suffer any penalties from lacking a workspace kit. 1 point.

Though with the set-up/packing time, it might be more fair to make that 10 points and add the following as the perk:

Natural Charmer (Improvised) - You are a natural at making charms and, when working with no workspace kit, you act as if you had an improvised workspace; when working with an improvised workspace, you are at no penalty. 1 point.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

I might call the first one only 3 points, thinking about it. It's basically an Accessory perk with enough Signature Gear to buy a basic workspace kit (2 points worth at TL 3). You could even make this a leveled perk:

Level 1: Basic Kit [3]
Level 2: Good Kit [8]
Level 3: Fine Kit [29]

The only annoying thing about this approach is that the point value of the traits varies by TL because an average month's pay does not scale with starting cash between TLs.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Yeah, it's basically an accessory perk - except it also eliminates the packing/unpacking time.

I wouldn't make it give a bonus; if I wanted that, I'd probably just user Higher Purpose (Charm Maker), Natural Caster (Charms Only, -x%) or something.

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That's probably fair enough. Instant use and stowing probably offsets the extra cost.

That makes sense; I was just pointing out other possible applications. Sometimes they turn out to be something.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Did you base this off of the Natural Doctor and Psychic Surgery perks from Psionic Powers?

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Naw - the accessory perk from Power Ups 2: Perks, which is probably the 'generic' version of those two perks.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

I'd consider going off those two. One lets you perform surgery without the subject bleeding or even cutting their skin. I'd sat that a perk that lets you ignore the -5 penalty for improvised workspace (and reduces the -10 penalty, to -5 for no workspace) is easily worth a perk (at most).

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

True enough; that's why I had the original version be just a perk. I'm not sure I'll keep it, though - especially with my permanent charm house rule, it might be too powerful (though at the moment in my house rules permanent charms are pretty expensive to make - $250 per point of energy in the spell or so at TL8).

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

Consider allowing it to work with permanent charms (or whatever you call them), but putting the penalty back at -10, that way in your baseline system you cannot make permanent charms without a work space or at least a improvised one, but with this perk you can.

Re: Power-Ups for RPM?
 

What might a reasonable cost for an advantage--let's call it Mana Conductor--that allows one to gather twice the normal energy from each gathering roll?

Compartmentalized Mind would allow two gatherings per turn, each with their own separate rolls and thus chances for quirks and botches, so, at first glance, one might think Mana Conductor should cost more than Compartmentalized Mind. But Compartmentalized Mind is not so limited in what it can be used for than Mana Conductor is. This suggests that Mana Conductor might reasonably cost less. And yet, it would be a mighty advantage to possess.