Whats a Munchkin?
 

I have constantly herd this term used. Often with very different viewpoints on what exactly it means.

To me, I think Munchkin means someone who tries to excede the intended balance of a game or someone who Min/Maxes they're character to be extremely effective in a very narrow field while drasticaly reducing capability everywhere else.

Example 1: a fighter who is as strong as possible, wears the heavyiest armor possible, carries the biggest weapon possible, and has no other redeming qualities or storyline/roleplaying purpose. Munchkin

Example 2: a wheelchair bound character who has a child, requires frequent medical attention, is a pasifist, and is a extremely powerful psychic would not be munchkin in my openion as long as the campaign involved psychics.

The nature of its disadvantages means there is a lot of roleplayability in the character and some inherent dependency on the other PCs who are more physicaly capable. It would of course be totaly unacceptable in a game where mental powers are not part of the storyline in some manner.

How do you guys define Munchkinism? Examples would be apreciated. munchkin and non munchkin

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

It's a derogatory and insulting term coined by elitist gamers to describe players of power gaming styles in what is literally a belittling way. No specific definition was ever made, the term started being used generally and used as often as not against player types that the person using the word it didn't happen to like.

Similar to cases where "Rules Lawyer" was used to villify players whose style consisted mainly of blatant rules breaking!

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Munchkinism is like obscenity as compared to art: hard to define specifically, but you know it when you see it. If that was good enough for the Supreme Court, it's good enough for me.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

see: The Munchkin's Guide to Power Gaming ISPN 1-56634-347-7

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

That's a Brick, which is a character archetype which may often be played by a munchkin, but a character archetype itself isn't a munchkin per se.

That's another character archetype, the bodiless Mentalist, it has many forms and names, it might be a cripple, a brain in a jar, or a mouse, or just a 90 lbs weakling, but again, just because munchkins often play such characters, it doesn't make the archetype itself a munchkin.

Munchkins think that RPGs are something you win at, and often the way they go at it, is by trying to make the most powerful character in order to beat all the other characters of the players they're gaming with, 'cause the munchkin thinks that if his character is better at stuff than all of the other characters, that somehow the munchkin in "beating" the other players.

IMO, Munchkinism is usually people doing stupid things, totally out of character, in an attempt to "win", and/or going for the power build in order to show off.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

A munchkin is, in short, someone who will put a pink whirligig hat on his traditional fantasy barbarian solely because it increases his ST. (And any other player who tends to do this sort of thing).

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Munchkin: Someone who maximizes their own satisfaction in playing a role-playing game without consideration for the enjoyment of the other players or the integrity and viability of the campaign world.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Truly if I would be facing dead everyday I would take ANYTHING (even wearing a pink whirligig hat) that would help me, so this seems to be really just a wise decision...
And truly I don't know many people (exactly noone actually), who don't want to win (yes there are those who don't mind so much if they don't, still they prefer to win)

My experience is that if someone yells Munchkin at you, its because you have optimized your character better than him (of course if he had your skills at optimizing he would do so too)

Technically, a powergamer is someone who Min/Maxes his character ad extremum (but still within the rules). A munchkin on the other hand sees the rules more flexible (some may be bent, others broken)...

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

I always thought that one is called EGOIST??? I once played in a group of Munchkins (everybody had ridiculous powerfull characters, considering their point levels), still everybody hat lots of fun, though you might not call it ROLEpg, it was more like Dungeon Hack...

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

I think the quoted description is best because it addresses the real issue, as opposed to shifting the blame onto either the rules or the inventiveness of players. It's about being responsible enough to to reign-in your gaming ambitions for the betterment of the plot and the mutual enjoyment of the game.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Your sig line says it all.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

I like the definition I once saw on RPGnet: a munchkin is the kind of roleplayer who, upon being told that the game will focus on political intrigue in fifteenth century Florence, asks to play a ninja.

In short it is a term for a player who doesn't care about the background of the game world or the enjoyment of the other players, only their own childish and tedious power fantasy. This generally involves having an ureasonably overpowered character, because that kind of person generally thinks of 'cool' and 'able to kill everyone I want to' as being closely related.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

What is the opposite of a Munchkin? Is it someone who goes into a dungeon filled with monsters wearing nothing but Bermuda shorts and armed with nothing but his two fists? Is it someone who enjoys creating new characters all the time, and tries using his wits and clever conversation against the monsters when all they want to do is kill him?

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

I'm describing the sort of thing that causes my players to complain about someone's being a munchkin. I have never heard any gamer complain that another gamer is an "egoist."

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

I knew a guy once in a Champions game who took Quadripalegic as a limitation so he could put more points into his power suit -- which he never took off.

In one game an enemy with reality-warping powers transformed his battle suit into orange jello. That was lovely.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Nevertheless, the definition you propose doesn't recognize the munchkin's particular pathology being related to acquiring power, particularly with regards to killing ability. If I were to, say, play in a campaign set around Muslim resistance to the Crusades with a character named Fred Flintstone who drank heavily and sang show tunes, it would fit your definition but I doubt most people would call me a munchkin.

Me, I use the "Florentine ninja" definition mentioned upthread. It's funny and reminds me of the classical definition of chutzpa.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

This is the best formal definition I have ever seen of Munchkin, as it concisely addresses the real issue. Munchkinism usually does involve powergaming but that's a symptom not the disease.

Which is why people who min/max their characters in typical D&D games don't draw the term because what they are doing SUITS THE GAME.

As a non formal definition I really like the one Perfect Organism mentioned.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Alright, but what did you expect?

"Well, I suppose I'll take off my suit and . . . er . . . lay here on the floor for a while, guys. Yeah, that's the ticket. Can you send someone back in about 20 minutes to help me put it back on?"

If I were quadruplegic and had a power suit that helped me walk, I certainly would not remove it during an adventure unless forced to. I don't see that this is an example of munchkinism.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

The beauty of GURPS he would have Quadriplegic (Mitigated by Powersuit)...

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Sure it is. Although he was paraplegic rather than quadruplegic, the main character of the series M.A.N.T.I.S. *often* was out of his power suit.

A disadvantage that does not disadvantage the character isn't a disadvantage.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

The character was probably not legal in Champions either -- you can only take the focus disadvantage if you are occasionally without the focus, and the point value for disadvantages is modified by frequency of occurrence -- which, if negated by a power suit, would be low.

On the original topic, a munchkin is a player who values in-game power more or in ways than the speaker considers appropriate. As such, its actual meaning varies significantly depending on who's speaking.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Agreed. My copy of Champions, 4th edition has in big bold type on page 117:

A Disadvantage that isn't a Disadvantage isn't worth any points!

On topic, my own definition of "munchkin" is a player overly concerned with optimizing character utility and power. "Overly concerned" is the point at which the character's point values and game-mechanical atributes are more important than the setting, the story, or the other characters.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

I have to strongly disagree with all the definitions regarding power level and PC optimization. Munchkinism has to do with respect and fun. The RPGnet definition is faulty too, I would play a Ninja in a Risus Victorian game, and using the inappropriate cliché rules would be entertaining for all.

Whs got it almost right, as far as I am concerned. From a post of mine in Power-gamers, Munchkins and Min-maxers: What's the difference or is there one?

- Power Gamers like high point levels.

- Min-maxers optimize choices.

- Munchkins exploit weaknesses in the rules.

Only the last one is inherently bad: by "exploiting weaknesses", I mean twisting the rules beyond their intended scope to the detriment of other players -- including the GM.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

What if your getting ready for a World War II GURPS campaign, and one character insists on equiping himself as Erril Flynn, has a rapier, wears tights and has extensive skill in fencing, and then announces that he'll challenge the first German he sees to single combat man to man, and he even brought an extra sword for the enemy, he looks around and sees the others all dressed in combat gear and now swords and calls them all a bunch of power gaming munchkins who have no style? Who's right? if one player wants to fight the Germans with a bullwhip and a chair and the others are equipped with M1 rifles and Bazookas, who is the munchkin here trying to optimize their fighting ability?

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Chello!

I think Luther pegged it well. Here's an example fro Hackmaster:

In Hackmaster, firing into melee is a BAD THING. Everyone who is in melee with the target becomes a potential target. It is modifed by size. So, if there are 2 elves (medium) in melee with a Huge creature (like a giant) and one fires at the giant, the break down is 4:1:1....you have a 4 in 6 chance to hit the giant and 1-in-6 for either of the elves.

Here's the clencher: if you would have hit the original target, it DOES NOT MATTER WHAT THE OTHER TARGETS AC IS. You automatically hit.

A munchkin would do this: Hmmm....the giant has a -4 AC. Since I would be shooting my ally from behind, his effective AC is 6. I'll AIM AT MY ALLY, PROBABLY HIT, AND HOPE THAT I HIT THE GIANT INSTEAD.

I told my table after that came up that if they tired anything like that I was pulling out the Smart Ass Smackdown Table and rolling until they were all dead.

An example quote from a Hackmaster board that exemplifies the Munchkin Attitude (about this same example):

Oh, but the rules allow it argument! lol

Tony

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Chello!

But, Tom, if the other players want to play a serious WW2 game, there PCs would be equipped according to the TOE of the proper unit. Sounds like Zorro boy wants to play Mystery Men. which is fine, but he's not playing by the rules of the game the other players and the GM have ready to go.

That's munchkin.

Tony

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

An imperfect rule set allows for munckinism For instance under one rule set you might have 2 players blocking a 10-foot wide hallway while a hundred orcs are proceeding down the hall 2 abrest so that only two can attack the PCs at a single time. The players have plenty of hit points and healing potions so they just calmly stand side-by-side and kill tow orcs at a time. The orcs in the back can't fire their crossbows at the PCs since the ceiling is low and their are orcs in front standing in the way, by the time they get a clear line of sight shot at them with their crossbows, they are in the front row and the PCs just chop thier heads off with their swords. Eventually the PCs kill all 100 orcs and gather their treasure together in one huge pile.

Is that munchkinism?

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Nope.
That's D&D.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

It's bad GMing, unless there's a rational reason the hundred orcs are willingly marching into the shredding machine. It's not munchkinism to take advantage of their stupidity, though it is munchkinism to expect them to be that stupid.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

The player asking for the Errol Flynn character in a WW2 campaign may or may not be a Munchkin, but he definitely is a jerk who is basically dissing both the GM and the rest of the gaming group by pushing for a totally different game setting than what's being offered and/or has been agreed to by everyone else. (If they were playing an Indiana Jones type game, then it might all be appropriate.)

The Munchkin would be asking for a time travelling character fully equipped with TL10 gear disguised as normal equipment who was using the rest of the party as a front and would killing them all whenever he got a chance so he could win.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Chello!

Yep that's 3E. The fatigue rules from Hackmaster would mean that the 2 heroes would eventually be overwhelmed...they'd probably account for about 20 orcs (maybe--depends on level and armor) unless a crit or fumble took them down early.

My point about the firing at your ally is this: would the CHARACTER aim at the back of a friend's head hoping to hit a giant? No way. (well, maybe if he were evil.)

To me that's a defining characteristic...metagaming. Thinking of the game as the PLAYER not as a CHARACTER.

(Why am I talking about HM on a GURPS board? lol)

Tony

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Though in that situation, the GM/DM might also be a munchkin.

Often the problem with D&D and why Munchkinism is so prevalent in the system, is due the prevalence of the type of poor GM who thinks that he's trying to win a game by beating or killing his players' characters, usually by moronically and literaly following the rules.

Munchkin GMs often create Munchkin players, all trying to beat each other at the game...

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

I don't know that anyone in your described scenario is a munchkin. The Errol Flynn type doesn't seem to be making an effort to craft a character that fits the setting, but that's a whole other issue.

I think it is a mistake to assume that people (like me) who dislike munchkinsim don't like players who are effective in meeting the conflicts that thier characters will face. There's nothing wrong with creating a character who is competent to meet the challenges that the campaign will bring -- in fact, not doing this, as in your example, is clearly wrong.

I'm satisfied with the definition that I gave. When point values and game-mechanical atributes are more important than the setting, the story, or the other characters I think that one has missed the point.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

You Might be a Munchkin if...

You are trying to figure out how to make "Holy Napalm" ...,

...you might be a munchkin.

In a Star Trek Universe game you try your best to gain control of a "Doomsday Machine Weapon" (from the famous episode) ...

...you might be a mUnchkin.

If yo find youself in too many of those 400 Mr. Welch points that KROMM posted in General Role-playing... then..

...you might be a Munchkin.


- E.W. Charlton


I apolgize...but I just started hearing Jeff Foxworthy's voice doing "You might be a Munchkin jokes...

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

I thing best description of Munchkin was Luters one.

I have question,
is Munchkinism to use quarterstaff one haned (with ST14) and large shield in other hand?
To max out defense bonuses.

From one side is it "only" maxing out character. From other, is not so fine use quarterstaff by one hand (regardless of ST) and keep its superb bonus to parry.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Only if you claim to be getting the parry bonus from the staff , and use the staff skill when useing it one handed, instead of useing the boradsword skill 8)

becvuse then you are breaking the rules at get more than you should 8)

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

If you're using a staff with one hand, you don't get any defense bonus, period. *grin*

Makes it easy, doesn't it?

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Metagaming and Munchkinism sitting in a tree . . .

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Funny, I always thought this was a munchkin. ;)

...seriusly though, I agree that a munchkin is someone bending the rules too far.
However it seems to be a catch-all phrase that people use for players they don't think plays "by the rules" as they seem them. This includes not only the "rules of the game" but also "the rules of conduct".
It seems to be a word gaining in uses much like the "beloved" word: "noob", in computer gaming.

As a GW player I tend to use th word "beardy" when people stretch the rules to their advantage, and the word Munchkin for when people bend the "reality" of the setting to their advantage. Such as a Super-fast (but weak) superhero putting on armour so he has no "dissadvantages".

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

For years I had to deal with a player who would argue for hours over any little advantage he could get, and call the GM an idiot if he didn't agree.

His characters would browbeat the others in the group until they agreed to his plans, and then complain that he was the only person able to think of what to do.

He always chose disadvantages that he could ignore, or make a Will roll to overcome. His Will was always a 14>, and if he failed it and was forced to play his disad he would then spend the next hour sulking.

If he took Luck, he would use it and then delay the game as much as possible so he could use his Luck again as soon a possible. Lunch breaks counted as an hour of game time.

As a GM I had to take him aside a couple of times to tell him not to call another player (not in character,) a f***ing idiot.

For a while he insisted on rolling his dice in a wooden bowl so they wouldn't roll off the table, and so nobody else could see what he rolled. Before that he had the habit of passing his hand over the dice as he rolled them. It took me a couple of years to figure this out, but what he was doing was catching a quick glance at the dice and if he didn't like it he would tap one of the die with his pinky to change the result. I wasn't the only player to spot this either.

I always had to double-check the math on his character sheets. It always came out wrong, and always in the character's favor.

As a GM, he always ran senarios where the players would get their butts kicked, until some NPC's came in to save the day.

When playing board games he has, more than once, used the line "Well, it's my game, so we're going to play the rules my way!" Or he would put in a movie that nobody had seen before and point out all the really good bits, so everybody was watching the tube and not seeing him checking out the cards, moving the pieces, or rolling the dice creatively.

He considers all this to be perfectly acceptable gaming behavier, indeed, it's the way games are supposed to be played. Doing whatever it takes to WIN!

Would this guy be considered a Munchkin?

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Yes. And a former player.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

The question of course, is why would/do you or anyone else put up with such a Munchkin?

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Chello!

Dude, I'd drop a freakin' house on him!

:D

Tony

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

I would consider that player a jerk. That's somewhat independent of being a munchkin, though in this case he would appear to be both (taking mental disads, then buying up Will, is a Sign).

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Which is why I am so happy that 4e got rid of Will rolls for the Mental Disadvantages.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

The guy is also one of the most charming people I have ever met. Intelligent, great conversasionalist, witty. I swear he has +5 charisma, and knows how to use it! And he had all the books, games, and he bought lunch. He would be one of the greatest gamers ever, if he wasn't such a jerk. I thank many gods that I finally found another gaming group, even if they only play D&D.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

that and closed the Lelu ST/Reduced Fatigue loop hole 8)

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Years? He would have lasted seconds in one of my campaigns.

I'd call him a f***ing idiot.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Eh, the Germans would probably cut him down in no time flat.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Id' call him a jerk and a cheat, had a player like that briefly, got the rest of the group to back me when we told him to get lost.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

That's not fair - you get to judge him only by the aggregation of years of bad RPGing behavior in one pre-packaged post. The gamers in question obviously liked this guy as a person enough to spend time with him, and steadily built up the "hey, this guy sucks as a GM and a player" evidence. You got it in one go. If he showed up the first session cheating at dice, yelling at other players, and running off a fudged character sheet but acted friendly, I'd agree with you. But I strongly suspect if they played with him for years, it wasn't like this was his constant non-stop behavior from the second he walked in the door.

It's like saying everyone who ever had a "my ex-gf" or "my ex-bf" story about a horrible ex doing nasty stuff - yet still stayed with that ex- for a while after - is a spineless chump for letting that happen to them. Sometimes you get a mix of good and bad, and it takes a while for you to determine that the bad outweighs the good.

***

My definition of munchkin, to address the topic, is a little more flexible. Basically, I apply it to rule-bending cheats trying to achieve maximal power regardless of the intent and design of the rules. Merely maximizing power is more of a "power gamer" - a label that fits me exactly in CRPGs, wargames, and in my old PBM days. You can be a power gamer with excellent roleplaying skills and a good character background, but I find it hard to think of a real munchkin having positive gaming benefits.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

On the behave of power games I'll have to cry insult there 8)

Powers games like high powered characters, in high powered settings, this has nothing to with rule bending or disregard to intent.

the only rule bending might bein in house rules to get the setting feel out of an inferior system that only goes most of the way to creating a game the group wants. But that's done as a group.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

I never said Power Gamers bend the rules - I rather specifically did not say that. I don't think that's a trait of power gamers.

In RPGing, I regard power gamers as the sorts who want high-powered play pretty much regardless of the situation. I have a couple power-gamer leaning players - they'll play anything, but given a choice they'll always choose the 500 point campaign over the 250 point one, and the 250 over the 150. I run that way myself. I don't mind low-point characters, but the rare times I get to play I want to play action heroes and blockbuster movie main characters - I want to be Han Solo, not Joe 1st Level Smuggler.

In PBMs (for example), I was a pure power gamer. We regarded ourselves as the ones who played to win. For example, you'd get guys in a fantasy wargame naming their characters after Tolkein characters, writing fanfic about their heroic deeds, or refusing to use human troops because "I am an elven king, our army is only elves!"
We'd be running around assassinating characters if we couldn't suborn or recruit them, amassing the most powerful armies the rules would allow, and generally savagely fighting to win. It was a winner-take-all wargame, after all - not an RPG, so we generally regarded the role-players as speedbumps. So we were "power gamers" but not munchkins - we'd min-max to get the most power, and choose power over flavor, but we wouldn't cheat or break the rules (and if we found bizarre loopholes, we'd report them to the GMs - winning a broken game is a bizarre thing to pay $ for).

So yeah, I specifically didn't ascribe rule-breaking or rule-bending behavior to power gamers because I think that's what sets munchkins apart.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

It depends where you come from. Around here there's a bad connotation with the term power gamer and a downright vicious connotation toward munchkin.

It was surprising to me to see some people vocally abjuring the benefits of power gaming, mostly because it meant something completely different to them.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

I ran an NPC kind of like that. He was the group's hacker, and spent most of the time in cyberspace (he didn't get much use except as a "so Satyajit found this on the network. You guys should check it out" kind of deal). But when an MIB strike team showed up looking for the alien scout plane they'd stolen from the guys who shot it down, he was nowhere to be found. When things got REALLY bad, he and the NPC leader burst out of the water tower on the roof in battlesuits. I figured if you can do a full environmental interface through a skull jack, you should be able to rig some kind of software to let it act as a straight interface.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Holy Napalm is an actual concoction used by my religion. It is ordinary napalm, blessed by a clergyman of the True Faith. You might as well claim holy water, crosses, and other anti-undead religious gear is "munchkin."

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Heh, one of my best friends and occasional player/GM often accuses me of running low-powered supers games in some of my settings due to my tendency to give all the PCs access to some type of power and/or ability which sets them off from the normal.
To that I usually reply that if we wanted to play normal characters we wouldn't be wasting our evenings with make-believe.

Besides, he like most everyone has fun playing a super, or even a god now and then, and nothing like running a god campaign to sharpen a GM's improv.

Power gamers don't really bother me, min-maxing doesn't bother me, (as long as its on theme), but on the other hand, someone can be a lousy character builder, not know power from shmower, not be able to add worth a fig, and still be the biggest munchkin you'd ever not want to deal with.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Yeah I know the types it normally from people that like to play a level of realism where you can virtually smell the sweat and blood, but what more believe this is the one true way to play, when the run int those the like to play larger than life type games. 8)


oh and Toadkiller_Dog the reason what I replied like that is it read like you "little more flexible" definition included power gamers, but it looks like I might have miss read you.

edit: for the recrd I too can enjoy a low powered game, I've been known to play Child's perpestive campain by choice, sort of like the adventures of the Famous Five

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

I'll even go as far as say min-maxers are well come, if their willing to shre their "skills" with others in the group to flesh out character consepts.

one of the main reason I min-max is to build an effect character, with enough points left over to flewsh out the "fluff" abilites 8)

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Oy, Enid Blyton, that brings back memories . . .

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Personally I love play low-power game.
Quite often I can see that players with lots of good skills and even some powers tend to use "muscles" instead of "brains",
means why try to make up some trap or plot when we can do it by force.
(have to say I also tend to do it :o)

On other way when you have 50pts char group and have to deal with vampire, that is a chalenge. It was not a gurps, but we used to play humans within Word of darknes games and this was great fun.

And about guy described below, Munchkin who cheat on dices and charsheet is far worse than "honest" one.
I hate people like this, because they ruin fun for everybody even for themselfs.
When you can convict others to folow your way of rules, this is kind of victory and takes some effort.
But cheating is cowardice.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Chello!

lol, roguebfl!!! If you min/max to make yoyur charater effective and have points left over for "fluff" (by which you mean "useless" background and roleplaying skills), you're not really min-maxing! ;)

MUNCHKIN: A player who uses out-of-game info to the character's advantage and plays the game in a vain attempt to WIN and prove his speriority to all the other "LOSERS" at the table. This can involve min-maxing and rules-lawyering, activities which in and of themselves are not bad...however, the munchkin is not doing it for the benefit of the group or to help the GM, but to wheedle some "ADVANTAGE" for himself ALONE.

Tony

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Well, the solution is you don't give that player out of game information.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Chello!

I'm not talking about adventure info, but mechanics info...do CHARACTERS think in terms of damage ratings, will rolls, if I do this I get a -2, things like that? That's what I mean.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

An advanced character who's been through a lot of combats should have good and fairly specific information about which tactics work and which don't. To properly represent this the player needs to know which tactics work in-game and select them. To a large degree I consider this to be expected behaviour, not munchkinism. The same is true for any other types of rolls where the character should be well aware of how the circumstances affect his chances.
Ofc problems do arise when the player's and character's degree of combat optimization don't match. If you feel the player optimizes combat choices too much you might consider asking for rolls against IQ or Tactics or giving him only limited time to make up his mind as to the next action. If that doesn't work he should either play a more experienced character or have some compensating disadvantages.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

There is one, and only one God, my child. Watch your language :)))

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

I'd call him a dam' phreak. And I would do what it takes not to have him a second time around my table, be I a player or a GM.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

That's a solution, but it constrains the range of possible play styles.

I run campaigns where the PCs often do things apart from the other PCs; in fact I've run campaigns where all the PCs came together only in the final episodes of the campaign. In some of those, the PCs have actually belonged to conflicting factions and taken action against each other. It would have been really awkward to keep having them sit in different rooms, while I went back and forth from one group to the other; I think it would have been so clunky as to be unworkable.

Fortunately, I have players who don't believe in acting on out-of-character knowledge—in fact, anyone who slips will be faced with outcries of "metagaming!" from the other players. So I just run everything in the open, with rare steps out of the room when it's dramatically useful to present a surprise to the players—"rare" meaning "less than once a session."

This gives me access to a wider range of campaign styles than GMs who have to be careful about what players know. I find that useful enough so that I would drop a player who didn't accept the separation of player and character knowledge, rather than change my play style to defend against them.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
Yes, please give Spartacus his due.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Fool do you want to tick Eris off? ;)

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

I actually was in a campaign where that was done, it worked out fine. I was visiting a friend in New Hampshire, and we were having a D&Dathon, he had a big house, and when the party was split up, so were the players, we watch movies or did something else when we weren't part of the action.

You have to understand that out of character knowledge also constrains your characters actions if you try a deliberately non-munchkin style of play. How do you know whether your character is acting on information he wouldn't have known but whose player knows or whether that character would have figured it out independently? If you already know that some other members of the party who are in a different section of the dungeon are in dire peril, but your character would not, do you go and try to rescue them? If the player knows what's happening he can either invent some excuse for his characters to wander into that room fully armed, or he can be automatically prohibited from moving in that direction. If he does not know what's going on, he can wander into that room by accident, or he might hear sounds of a combat taking place and move in to investigate. The best style of play is when the player only knows what the character knows. Asking that character not to act on out of character information after giving him that information is a poor style of play in my opinion, its so much better for the player to go to another room when his character is not involved in the action.

In that case the character's choices are restricted by out of game social pressure on the player. I'd rather not have knowledge that I can't act on, and so have freedom to act in what ever way I choose than to have someone say, I can't do that because my character wouldn't know.

Would you want to play "Open Card" Poker? Imagine a game of poker where everyones cards are on the table face up so everyone can see them, and then have social pressure on each player so they don't act on the knowledge of what the other player's cards are. This doesn't sound like much fun to me. The best games are when the players knowledge and the character's knowledge are the same, or the character might know more than the player, but instances where the player knows more than the character should be kept rare if the GM is doing a good job. The best way is to keep the players together whenever possible, and when not possible some players should leave the room. Since splitting the party up and the players slows down play, this ought to discourage the party from splitting up. One exception is when one of the characters gets killed and the player creates another character. The GM then works the new character into play. GURPS characters take a while to create, so you have the player create this character in another room while the rest continue role playing, then at some later point the GM introduces the new character into the situation with backstory on how he got here.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Nah. That's just your opinion. If it works for you, great!

Still, please don't pretend that that way is objectively better. It isn't. It's a matter of taste, and of taste there is no disputing as they say.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Yeah, but he's an absentee landlord ;)

p.s. That was good movie, and I don't think a better actor could've played the devil.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Munchkin is the player which, knowing the campaign takes place in 18th century victorian London, wants to play a ninja.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

That could also be a Looney.

Brandon

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Sounds interesting
-unfamiliar with the culture and the customs
-cannot speak the language
-wears a funny black pyjama (everybody will think he is french by then... -Data ST:TNG)

sounds like a real challenge

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

You could even add a few extra twists, Der Wanderer:
- unfamiliar with the low TL of the age (you see, he comes from the future!)
- has to hide his biomechanical-ST20-laser-arm from sight of others

A cyborged ninja from the future? Now that´s a challenge.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

Of course what you suggest would make most comic heroes Munchkins... A super rich guy running around in a Bat costume at night... please...

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

I think you're missing the point here. What makes this definition and the nigh-identical one up-thread (mentioning Renaissance Florence rather than Victorian London) work is that the specifics of the setting kinda don't matter, nor specifically that it's a ninja. A munchin is the sort of person who would want to play a kewl, often ethnically badass, killer no matter what the setting is. He'd want to play a ninja in a Sherlock Holmes-themed campaign, in a political Renaissance campaign, in a mercantile campaign along the Silk Road, in the Uplift universe, or in a Jane Austen novel. Or he might want to play an Ultimate Fighting champion in all of them, or a shotgun-weilding renegade biker in all of them. The point is that he wants to wear a particular kind of badass outfit and kill lots of people with ease with a particular weapon or fighting style, no matter how absurd or impossible they might be in any given campaign, and can't and doesn't think beyond that.

Re: Whats a Munchkin?
 

And I say a clever GM might fit him in in any setting...
Think of Lestat de Lioncourt (Anne Rice)
He is a blood drinking monster, but depending on the novel it ranges from horror (queen of darkness) to mystery (tales of the body thief) to romance (I think pedominantly in Memnoch the devil)

Additionally just because anybody preferes to play a similar character all the time does not make him a munchkin (Its not the choice of character but the execution thereof that may be interpreted as munchkinism)

Though I agree the player needs to show some variation of his character depending on the setting. And someone who likes to slaughter should probabely not play in a Jane Austen "Adventure"