[MA] Technique Mastery for DWA?
 

Am I crazy, or does it look like Technique Mastery is legal for DWA?

Has anyone seen this come up? Would you allow it? Seems a little nuts, but we are talking cinematic gaming...

Re: [MA] Technique Mastery for DWA?
 

It's as legal as any other Technique Mastery. IMO, it's not too problematic, since the [5] cp you're dropping on it aren't going toward raising your base skill (and thus overall to-hit, Parry, Feint resistance, other techniques, etc). It can start to get pretty munchkiny when you combine multiple TMs - for example DWA + Counterattack + Feint.

I've considered a houserule where you only use the highest TM rather than the combination of them. So if you've got Feint at +7 (that's +3 over the normal maximum), DWA at +2 and Counterattack at +4, you'd roll at a max of +2 when combining them. By RAW you'd roll Feint +13 followed by a Counterattack at +6; with the houserule you'd roll Feint +6 and Counterattack +2, which is still higher than the normal maximums, but not so blatantly broken.

Re: [MA] Technique Mastery for DWA?
 

So the character would attack at base skill +x when using two weapons? Where increasing x costs [1]? Technique Mastery is always worth heightened scrutiny and attacking is the core function of the skill. For me, no way, not a chance.

Re: [MA] Technique Mastery for DWA?
 

Remember that as a cinematic technique, a character requires Trained by a Master or Weapon Master in order to improve DWA above default. When he's performing a DWA, he's not making a Rapid Strike, which with TbaM is only -3 per extra attack. I really don't see it as a particularly problematic choice, compared to the other things he could be spending those [5] cp on, especially if you're limiting the number of Perks a character can take. I'd worry more about someone pumping up Feint (though again, points spent there are points not spent on base skill and Parry).

Re: [MA] Technique Mastery for DWA?
 

i don't have a problem with DWA being a level higher than base skill. However, I do require DWA specify the combination, frex knife/knife is a separate technique from knife/rapier.

Re: [MA] Technique Mastery for DWA?
 

Legal? Yes. A good idea? Depends on the game.

For a kung-fu movie game where everyone has that one killer move, sure, why not? It would be amusing to have a guy so good that, like the Sundance Kid with shooting on the move, he's better with two weapons than with either one on its own.

Balanced? Really, it depends on the game. It isn't one I'd give a blanket yes to in all circumstances. GM judgement is required.

Re: [MA] Technique Mastery for DWA?
 

I'd say no to this as fast as I did to they guy who wanted to learn DWA for Flail.

Re: [MA] Technique Mastery for DWA?
 

I'd have to ask why. Double 'chucks is realistic, although not easy (although Danny Inosanto makes it look so). Double morningstars probably less so, but with Parry U it's basically unsafe to do without an exceptional Dodge.

Re: [MA] Technique Mastery for DWA?
 

Mostly because I think full-fledged morningstars are too unwieldy to use in each hand. I didn't think about the nunchucks thing, though, so I might offer him the opportunity since his last PC just died, and his replacement is an annoyance.

Re: [MA] Technique Mastery for DWA?
 

Say say that a "full-fledged morningstar" is a straight up Flail from Low-Tech or Basic Set. Without ST20 one in each hand is simply not going to happen and it won't be very smart without ST26.

Re: [MA] Technique Mastery for DWA?
 

Why would we not say that a "full-fledged morningstar" is the thing called a morningstar higher up in the same stat blocks..?

Re: [MA] Technique Mastery for DWA?
 

Because this one is bigger.

Re: [MA] Technique Mastery for DWA?
 

I feel you may be confusing "it wasn't done" for "it can't be done". Morningstars certainly weren't used in both hands, because it was totally impractical. They were developed as battlefield weapons, and a front-line warrior needs a shield to protect himself and his allies. An off-hand weapon is simply not helpful. Nunchucks, on the other hand, are a civilian adaption of the flail. Civilian weapons face very different conditions which make dual-wielding a feasible, even attractive, option.

Realistically, a morningstar's Min ST 12 should be more of a hindrance than it is in GURPS. A fighter swinging a pair of 6lb morningstars will fatigue far faster than one twirling a couple of 2lb nunchucks, even if he's got plenty of ST for either one. But the same would apply to swinging a pair of ST 12 maces, and to a lesser extent the wide range of 1-handed ST 11 weapons. At present that is well below the resolution of GURPS.

All of this pretty much goes out the window in a cinematic game, of course. There you'll see a mish-mash of civilian and soldierly weapons and styles. If allowing DWA to be improved at all, I wouldn't single out morningstars as being inappropriate.

Re: [MA] Technique Mastery for DWA?
 

Yes, but it's not the same thing. The original comparison was between Nunchaku and Morningstars, not between Nunchaku and everything covered by any Skill that has "Flail" in the name.

Re: [MA] Technique Mastery for DWA?
 

"A skill's core uses aren't eligible" catches this one. The actual roll against Dual-Weapon Attack is for core use: standard attacks. You can have Technique Adaptation only for peripheral attacks. It would take a very lawyer-like reading to claim, "Attacking once with one hand is a core use, sure, but once you do it with both hands at once, that changes." That would be like saying it's okay to use Technique Adaptation to get +4 to Wrestling as long as you insist that it only covers two-handed grapples.

Re: [MA] Technique Mastery for DWA?
 

Oh well. I hate when my own ideas ("Sean, we need to cover those ridiculous one-technique masters from kung fu movies!") cut down on the total awesome of a campaign.

Re: [MA] Technique Mastery for DWA?
 

I would disallow most technique mastery perks on general principal, and I thought this was extreme myself, hence the thread.

I think you picked a poor example however, as Wrestling's default is a two handed grapple and has no technique listed in chapter 3 of MA, IIRC, and DWA is a technique that starts out as a skill feet at -4.

If a player says "I'm going to grapple him" I assume he's using two hands by default, and if they say "I attack with my sword" I assume they are attacking with one. Looks like a different animal to me.

Sure DWA would become your default if you improved it to Skill (or higher), but I think that's true of any widely useful technique you've bought up to skill (or higher).

And it does have it's drawbacks, no benefit in resisting feints, or bonus to parry, doesn't help with skill on added attacks on Extra Attack or AoA, and you loose the benefit if you drop a weapon or are disarmed... so that's why I thought it was at least possibly legal.

Re: [MA] Technique Mastery for DWA?
 

I'm with you there. It seems bizarre to me that DWA would be barred as a "core use of skill", when techniques like Kicking are explicitly allowed.

Re: [MA] Technique Mastery for DWA?
 

DWA is already a technique that is allowed to be improved to the limit of the defining skill.

And so is Kicking. You can't improve kicking past Karate (or Brawling if it's a technique of Brawling also).

And as GM I wouldn't allow kicking to be extended because I feel that kicking is also a core use of Karate. Buying off the -2 penalty with a technique is fine, but making Kicking even better sounds wrong to me

Re: [MA] Technique Mastery for DWA?
 

By RAW, Technique Mastery is unambiguously allowed for Kicking (if allowing TM at all). So, where would you draw the line? How about Upper Cut, Knee Strike, or Exotic Hand Strike? Those certainly aren't "core" techniques, but after improving them they may replace basic attacks. And if barring those, what would you allow, if anything?

The sense I get from this whole discussion is that people think TM is a point crock and shouldn't be allowed at all. I haven't had that experience with it. As Peter says, it's helpful to represent some of the hyper-specialized martial artists from fiction.

Re: [MA] Technique Mastery for DWA?
 

It's really where it came from. I watched some ridiculous kung fu movie - dubbed from Cantonese to Mandarin, with bad subtitles, etc. It had a kicking master, a guy who had this one great punch, etc. and I called up Sean and this resulted from that discussion. We needed some way to manage those guys who do one thing really well.

Like a few of the other perks, it's fairly easily abuseable, but that's no reason to take the tool out of the hands of worldbuilding GMs. Use it where it seems appropriate and like it won't result in badness in your campaign. Like, you know, any rule in any book. :)

Re: [MA] Technique Mastery for DWA?
 

I did say that I wouldn't allow it, not that RAW wouldn't allow it.

As with most things, I will negotiate with players. While I might not like Kicking for TM, I wouldn't mind more specialized kicks and hand strikes using TM.

Re: [MA] Technique Mastery for DWA?
 

And its' appreciated!

Heh. I especially find this thread amusing for the simple reason that I have a player who loves dual-wielding, always takes DWA and always takes TM(DWA) regardless of whether her character is using melee or firearms. It comes with so many downsides, and the player gets so used to having that bonus, that managing to take it away thrashes the player's familiarity with how the character fights; it tends to nicely represent the confusion of disarming events rather than the smooth transition that a lot of players do as it forces a change of tactics.

Besides, it is +4 for [5]. Meh. It may be a bit cheap at the lower skill levels (sub 20s), where it is more typical to get +3 for [6], but where my group plays it isn't especially noticeable.