Why learn a martial art?
 

Ok. So, I understand that the point values next to each style in the MA book refer to the skills and the style familiarity point...then what? Say you spend 4 points to get Boxing. You're buying the skills, then the style point to make it official. Then do you get those techniques for free? What level? Or are they now simply available for you to learn? What about the Perks? Are they awarded by knowing the style or are they things you just additionally buy?

If the techniques and perks must be bought, why learn a style instead of buying the skills you want?

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

It only really matters, I think, if the GM wants you to justify how your character knows the techniques and has the perks listed as part of the style. If they're letting you pick and choose anything you want, it doesn't matter as much, though the perk itself has some small benefits.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

You do not get anything for free (There is no free lunch in GURPS). If you spend 4 points on boxing you get the three skills and the style familiarity perk. That's all. As you say, having "officially" the boxing style allows you to learn the other skills and techniques of the style and the other style perks.

Indeed, asides from the style perks, which could not be learned normally, there is no real advantage (in game mechanics) of learning martial arts styles. However, the styles give you a better idea how you character is behaving in combat. They simulate better which kind of attacks followers of a certain style would use. This adds substantially to the color and role-playing of combat.

In addition, depending on the campaign (GM decision), certain skills (especially cinematic ones) might only be available to followers of certain styles.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

Properly picked Style Perks are pretty desirable, actually. And you only get one per 20 points in martial skills if you don't have a style.

Plus, you get rid of needing to justify buying this or that desirable Technique.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

You have to buy them additionally. But [anybody] with a skill can use any of its techniques (except a few Unique ones) at default.

Edit: And to answer the likely follow on question of why list any techniques with the style when you can use them all: the list is of the ones you can learn above default anywhere you can find instruction in the style, and it's also a list of the ones you have drilled into your reflexes and should consider using first to portray a realistic practitioner of the style. You *can* use something not on your style's list, but while doing that all the time isn't strictly forbidden by the rules, it is questionable roleplaying in a campaign that is bothering with defining styles in the first place.

Because nobody will teach you? There is no reason the GM has to allow instructors that will teach you to use a particular weapon outside the framework of a style to exist. But sure, in a setting where you aren't required to have a logical story of how you learned something, you absolutely could buy whatever you want instead.

Realistic advanced martial arts students do this sort of thing all the time, working with somebody trained in another style to pick up a few new moves. But they don't generally *start out* that way (because in reality a la carte is actually not a very efficient way to learn the basics of something), and they do have a good story ("I live in a culture where there are schools teaching a dozen different martial arts in every city, and I made friends with somebody trained in a different one") for why they can.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

Learning a style is just buying the skills of that style (plus the Style Familiarity perk). So if you don't want those skills, then you probably shouldn't learn that style. Think of a style as a mini-template (or lens) -- it's a collection of skills that you should buy if you want to play a PC who's a master of <X> style.

In other words, you should learn the Muay Thai style because you want to play a PC who's great at Muay Thai! If that sounds cool to you, then GURPS Martial Arts exists to show you which skills you should buy to realize this character concept. Just like if you wanted to play a knight, you could use a "knight" template to know what skills are appropriate and useful.

The only real difference between "I know these skills" and "I've learned this style" is that the latter means you also bought Style Familiarity. That perk is pretty cool -- it gives you a lot of minor benefits for just a point -- but it has the prerequisite that you can't take it unless you first take all of the primary skills of the style. So that's the one true game-mechanical benefit of "learning a style" -- you get to buy Style Familiarity for it.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

I thought that you had to be in a style to be able to improve the techniques of that style above default. Am I wrong here?

And of course the cinematic techniques and skills usually need Trained by a Master and the master in question may be picky about who, how, and what he teaches.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

Thanks for all the responses, guys, it's really clearing things up.

Last question (potentially, ha!): what does the Style Familiarity point do other than officially recognize the style? The book makes it seem like that's all it does.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

Quite a few things. See Martial Arts p49.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

From what I understand, if you've got combat skills, you GET to BUY one perk for every 20 skill points you have in combat skills.

If you've got a martial arts style, you GET to BUY additional perks (from those listed within the style) for every 10 points you have in that particular style's techniques and required skills.

So if you have 20 points in various combat skills, you get the privilege of buying one martial perk.

But if you put those same 20 points into a particular martial arts style, you get to buy one martial perk (any of the "generic" ones, IIRC). AND you get to buy two of the martial perks associated with that combat style.

You STILL have to spend your character points on the perks (nothing is "free" in 4E). You don't have to buy the perks.

And if you have multiple styles, there's rules (somewhere... I'm just browsing the PDF for the book right now) as to how you earn style perks across multiple styles, and how you can spend them within individual styles.

Note that this is all predicated on the "limited perks" (I think it's a maximum of 1 generic perk for every 25 character points, and 1 combat perk for every 20 points in combat skills). If characters are allowed to buy as many perks as they want, this is all moot.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

The GM has the option of declaring that techniques cannot be improved beyond default unless you've trained in a style that includes said technique. It's not a hard and fast rule, so much as a way for the GM to make styles more important if he wants that in his campaign.

The actual hard rule is that Style Familiarity lets you improve your style's techniques at any time; see below.

See the bullets on p. 49 of GURPS Martial Arts. In brief, Style Familiarity lets you learn the style's perks and improve its techniques at any time (instead of having to wait and train during downtime) because you're assumed to have already practiced them; you ignore cultural penalties when interacting with fellow stylists; you are assumed to have a minor Claim to Hospitality or similar benefit; and you suffer less from Feints and Deceptive Attacks from fellow stylists.

In addition to the above, when you "know" a style (which requires buying its Style Familiarity), you're entitled to buy more Style Perks than you normally would be allowed. Since Style Perks are pretty awesome, and cheap, this is not an insignificant benefit -- even though you don't get any discount on their price.

As I said above, it's a pretty great deal for just 1 point, and that's not even including that it's what takes you from "I know a few combat skills" to "I've trained in this particular style."

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

Thanks so much.

I was having trouble wrapping my head around it all for some reason and you guys have cleared it all up. Well played.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

Even for long-time players (or at least me), the richness of martial arts skills and styles in 4e requires some effort to grasp. You're not alone there. For example, reading this thread, I drew a complete blank on what the official rule is for whether you can buy up a combat skill's Techniques when the Style Fam Perk is lacking. (PK cleared it up nicely: it's a GM option.) There are other detailed bits, too, that always send me back to Martial Arts for a re-check.

But in any case, I call it "rich", not "complex". 4e does good stuff with martial arts. Getting back to the initial question of the thread, back in 3e I couldn't figure out what made a "style" different from a bunch of skills, mechanics-wise. That lack of a difference didn't break anything, but it was unsatisfying. 4e's simple Style Fam Perk nicely handles this.

4e addresses other little issues, too: for example, 3e would give some styles little freebies, like acrobatic feints for Capoeira, that made for nice descriptive and mechanical touches, but again, were vaguely unsatisfying ("so, I can just toss in stuff like this for free? Anywhere I like?"). 4e again uses Perks to nicely codify these tweaks.

Sorry, I ramble. But while the whole 4e combat skill/style system isn't necessarily what we'd ideally build new from scratch, I thought I'd take this chance to tell the SJG folks that, with 4e, they've updated legacy martial arts rules with some very nice design work.

Oh, and I have a question too. One thing easy to overlook in Style Fam is a touch of disadvantage that it carries. A style includes the benefit that you can better read a fellow stylist, and better defend against his Feints and Deceptive Attacks. That seems fair. But it also means he better defends against your use of these moves. And if he has a second style that you don't have, he can use Style 1 to better defend against your actions, while using Style 2 to more effectively attack you.

My question: In this specific situation, wouldn't you be better off having no style at all, thus becoming less "readable" to your foe? If that's so, is there anything you can do about this during the battle? Can you declare, "I throw a Deceptive Attack, but it's with generic Karate skill, not my style"? Yeah, it sounds a little cheat-y, and I can see the GM ruling this out if the attack is one that clearly required the style (like a bought-up Technique). But if it's just a generic Karate punch, the same punch that you could throw if you had nothing more than the unadorned skill, is there a mechanical reason why you can't throw the punch "out of style"?

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

The pinnacle of military deployment approaches the formless: if it is formless, then even the deepest spy cannot discern it nor the wise make plans against it
-- Sun Tzu.

:)

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

Actually, having a easily readable body language makes it easier for you to know your language.
Changing your language suddenly and attacking the opponent a different manner is part of a well made attack.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

No style, or all styles, so you can read them but they can't read you.


Did you learn it without a style? No instructor, no history, no readable technique? If your GM says that's okay that you did so, yes. It's pretty cinematic, though. Even the guys who said they learned from watch birds or monkeys or whatever ended up with styles. Bruce Lee's goal was a way, not a style, but you can tell people who try to fight like him and you can see his influences in his approach.

In game, I wouldn't let someone take Muay Thai and then say "I throw a totally non-Muay Thai punch!" anymore than let someone say "I speak English, but with no accent or regional pronunciation!" It just doesn't seem possible, realistically, and it's clearly meant to be an abuse in game (You're trying to dodge a disadvantage that came with your advantages, while still taking full advantage of your advantages.)

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

According to p MA49, you only only get the bonus if you are familiar with all your foe's styles. So this is a good reason to learn all the styles you can.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

Incidentally, speaking with a weird, unique accent that comes from combining nuances of many regions (or making up some of your own) seems plausible, and mirrors having multiple Style Familiarities. But I think the player who says that sort of thing actually wants to use a new, unique Style.

The issue is also that someone with no Style is game-mechanically immune to being affected by anyone's SF.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

Is that a problem? They don't get any upsides, but no downsides. There are lots of upsides and one downside, basically. People without a style have no downside but none of the upsides.

Saying people with a style can claim they don't have it just when it the disadvantage comes up ("He knows Muay Thai? I throw a plain karate punch!") seems unfair and nonsensical to me.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

Depends heavily on whether the PC relies on having many Combat/Stylish Perks, and whether said PC has the full list of desired Techniques already above default. Alas, the one example I can immediately bring up is a non-combat one.

Yeah, it's silly. Which does bring about an amusing desire to get as obscure a style as one can get hands on, as long as it fits other criteria. Not sure if it's awesome or silly.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

No, that's not unrealistic. I know when I roll with people who do BJJ they often get a little frustrated. The really good ones still own me, but the ones closer to my skill have more trouble. Their problem is that my style (Kachin Bando style grappling) is unfamiliar to them, and their style (BJJ) isn't unfamiliar to me. It's a minor advantage at best.

The combat upside of an obscure style is outweighed in a more social situation, though - my friend the BJJ blue belt can go to any BJJ school with his blue belt, tell them his instructor's name and his instructor's instructor's name, and they'll know him. They'll accept his ranking and position and skill and treat him as a blue belt.

I get tossed into the unknown category, because even after I explain my style most people still don't know what the hell I'm talking about. I'm better off saying "Kendo Shodan" and my date of ranking than explaining my years of grappling experience and fight record. It just doesn't signify as much as that minor Claim to Hospitality and Cultural Familiarity does. It helps in combat, a little, but only when I pull stuff that doesn't look like what they know.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

Depends on your striking Strength and your Dexterity, since if you've got no Martial Arts Style at all, that's unskilled striking (not even Brawling); personally I'd rather have access to the relevant damage bonuses and techniques. The various unarmed combat skills (and some armed ones) always tie into a "style", even if it is something as simple as "Self-defense"... which was included largely to avoid this issue in the 3e version of GURPS Martial Arts.

Having a "secret" or "new" style would be one of those Advantages with built-in Disadvantages. I'd probably just charge an appropriate Unusual Background for that. I probably wouldn't be too severe since unless the player goes through a lot of trouble, it won't remain secret for long and if it is at all effective, the player has gained a lot of unwanted attention. Don't forget the difficulty of being recognized as a martial artist (assuming you want such recognition) and the requirements for a character creating a new style (at least in 3e, it wasn't easy).

Not unless you've studied generic "Karate" as a style. I mean, some source books specifically have that - 3e Black Ops, for example, explicitly stated that the Martial Arts "style" of their agents was a distillation of all the martial arts the-powers-that-be behind the default Black Ops setting.

TL;DR: If you're campaign is bothering with the more advanced combat options that Styles apply to, then your character always has a "style". If 4e Martial Arts allows Style rules to be used without requiring a player has a style (even a placeholder like Self-Defense), color me confused.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

This is not the case. You can have brawling, boxing, karate, wrestling, judo, and sumo skills without having any style.

What this represents is fairly obvious...someone who's picked up the skill without studying any school (or even 'school') and thus whatever quirks their idiosyncratic style might have, nobody is going to be familiar with them.

It's slightly perverse that that character could then learn a style and in the process become predictable to all practitioners. I wonder if an additional perk would be enough to buy away the 'recognizable style' penalty.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

In theory there would be no reason of course why someone could not study a particular foe and spend a perk on knowing how he, in particular fights even he doesn't himself have a Style perk. Which leads inevitably to Taskmaster. Just as you can get an Unusual Background which lets you know every language in the universe you could get an Unusual Background that lets you know everyone's style provided you had an opportunity to study them.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

I'd think so. An additional Style Familiarity the other guy didn't have would do that after all, buying Style Familiarity (my weird personal style) doesn't seem unreasonable - somebody must have invented all of them in the first place after all.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

All you need to do is to get a style familiarity with a similar enough style that you don't need to learn new skills, but that is uncommon in the area. It isn't sharing a style that is the trouble, it's if your foe has style familiarities for all of your styles. If you both have the same styles, then you both have the same advantage.

And the advantage we're talking about here is only a reduction by -1 of the penalty from your foe's feints and deceptive attacks. And even this can be avoided (p. MA 49)

So learn a feint based on Dancing (which is a part of one of the martial arts in my SF setting - I call it a "graceful feint").

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

What is the best way to handle style familiarity in campaigns where one style is very common? For example, in a campaign in medieval Europe, all knights would use the same (GURPS) style. However, I would imagine that a fighter from one region would not be able to easily read the style from a knight of another school / region.
What is the best way to handle this? Split the style into sub styles that are the same in GURPS terms but don't have style familiarity between them? Or just to limit the style perk?

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

I would use your first suggestion, splitting them into similar styles (same skills, but maybe a different technique or two) based on region. Knights who actually use their arts and practice should have a style.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

I'm not sure, what's the justification real-world? "I get rid of my recognizable tactics and replace them with tactics no one has ever seen before" is just . . . odd. I'm not sure what that would be. I know beginners can throw off trained people because they do aggressively stupid things which can catch you off guard, but that's not the same thing - it's not really any different than fighting someone who is doing those things on purpose when they are using a style you've never seen before.

Learning a true additional style to throw people off is valid - and I've seen it. When I was in Japan one of my co-workers did sport Capoeira. A Kudo instructor came to his informal class to learn some moves he could insert into his own style to throw people off at the next tournament. It worked too. He went from "fighting guys who know his style" to "using a style they aren't familiar with."

For people who really want a total "includes all, but familiar to none" go with Ultimate Fighting, on MA p. 20. For 20 points you buy Style Familiarity with everything; but only other Ultimate Fighting stylists count as familiar with your style. Yes, it's 29 points including the style, but learning to fight like Remo Williams isn't cheap. ;)

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

That would not actually do anything. It's the technique used after the feint, not the technique used for the feint.
Well, the semi-real-world justification is that before you spent one point buying style familiarity, your character's deceptive attacks were better, in a way that is, technically, impossible for your character to ever experience again after they've bought a single style familiarity.

So by stepping into a dojo somewhere and getting a white belt, you permanently lose your personal fighting patterns, which worked perfectly well up until then? The inspiration here, remember, is a character who was an accomplished fighter before they learned any style. The idea is that they're basically claiming a style familiarity with an undocumented style which has no co-stylists and no optional traits, skills, techniques, or perks they don't already know.

For someone who learned a style first, clearly it's not impossible to still invent an idiosyncratic way of doing things that nobody's seen before. But it's probably hard and likely not as appealing as actually picking up a new style familiarity, which is almost as good and has additional benefits.

...Huh, I think the familiarity rule might have a slight issue. There's no filter on the styles that are considered, which means that having familiarity with Kusarijutsu or Foot Archery can thwart the other guy's familiarity in an unarmed fight. Perhaps only familiarities that include the skill you're using should count... Or even only styles that include the specific technique you're using.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

If you invent a personal style then surely that should be a style that you know rather than something other than a style.

I feel like fighters who know multiple styles ought to be allowed to say which style they're using when they do something so long as it is a skill or technique that is part of the style the pick. At the very least that simulates cinematic martial artists who switch up styles to confuse opponents.

"You are using Bonetti's Defense against me, ah?"

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

Right. And they should pay points for that advantage (in a campaign that is using the styles from Martial Arts).

It'd be taking Style Familiarity (My Personal Style) [1], if they wanted to have their own idiosyncratic way of doing things ... which others could learn, either by being taught or by observation, in order to negate its' advantage.

Doing so would probably be more realistic, but its' funny watching a sword-fighter fighting a bow-fighter and having (slight) issues because the bow-fighter doesn't fight like a sword-fighter.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

Alternately, you could name what you already know as a style - e.g. Master [My Instructor's Name]'s Combat Style - and buy the Lapsed Stylist perk for it. That should work as well as calling it your own personal style for avoiding the penalty, without suddenly adding any new social advantages (they aren't there in Lapsed Stylist) or needing to claim you invented it.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

I see no reason not to allow this. It's blowing a point permanently to have a tiny edge against one foe. It seems eminently balanced. I'd call it "I Studied On Killin' You!"

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

In my 4e PDF, it's on p. 144 in a box called Ultimate Styles. I haven't found the 20 point advantage that gives familiarity with all styles, though I'd probably allow it.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

End of the second paragraph.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

Yeah, page 144. I was thinking ahead while I wrote. The advantage is discussed in that box in my hardcopy.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

While that is an issue, I'm not seeing a suggestion that doesn't basically work as, I know this style but I have no discernible pattern and so there is no downside for all of these upsides, but it is a downside for people I fight.

And if the people you fight can ignore their style and attack style-free, then the idea of negating DAs and reducing Feints is basically a non-rule that applies to no one.


That is how I'd run it. You need to be able to apply it to the situation to have it make sense and have it count. GM judgement should apply - if you're in a Karate tournament and you also know Kyudo and BJJ and don't use them, it shouldn't be hard to read you. If you do use them, and it's a point-based system that scores proper technique, your bleed through from BJJ might hurt you, not help you. I know I didn't score once in Kendo because of my totally incorrect step, which looked more MMA than Kendo and we weren't fighting, we were trying to apply perfect technique before the other guy did.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

Of course, you get exactly the same effect if you have one other style familiarity your opponent doesn't or if you don't have a style familiarity at all or if you've learned a technique outside your style and use it.

If that drawback is supposed to be a huge deal that you can't get out of, it shouldn't be so easy to get out of it. I'm just proposing a way out of it that makes it possible for the same character to fight with 'no' style (which any character without a style familiarity can do) and to have knowledge of styles. I don't think 1 point is too little to pay for the privilege.
Did anyone actually suggest that?

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

Ayup. I see it clearly now, thank you. If it had been a cliche, it would have bit me.

Unfortunately, in my SF setting, not all martial arts descend from this particular one, though most have taken at least bits and pieces of this one. However, there are very few places and people who use this style, though there is a sport style that includes a lot of the original, but not all. Her teacher made sure she was qualified in the modern version as well so she could always have a job teaching if she wished.

She also has a few style familiarities for arts that she could not study the cinematic parts either because of a lack of True Masters (The Gentle Way - basically Aikijutsu) or because she lacked the ability (Blue Star Striking, where magical control over gravity and time is used to deadly effect). Her master didn't teach her the military martial arts because he really doesn't believe they're useful other than teaching soldiers to understand that pain can be ignored and that it's good excercise: after all why wrap a battle suit or a starship around you and then fight hand to hand?

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding. You could buy Style Familiarity without learning the style right now (a good example is that Masters of Defence stylists can learn Style Familiarity (Italian School) without learning that style. You can learn a style with the Self-Defense lens and have no Style Familiarity right now, although you must forgo the benefits of having that perk as well as its downside. You can create your own style, too, which pretty much no one else will be familiar with.

I'm just saying you shouldn't be able to take advantage of the upsides of a style (reduces penalties from DAs from other stylists, better access to perks, access to some perks not commonly available, social advantages, excuse to buy up techniques, etc.) and the advantage of not having one (no one gets a benefit against you). I just think buying, say, Goju-ryu and BJJ and then saying "I throw a non-style punch!" using the points you've claimed as an excuse for buying a Technique from Goji-ryu and counted for buying an extra style perk, to avoid the one downside to having a style.

In more detail, to make my point as clear as I can:

Joe has 20 points in the skills and techniques, etc. of Goju Ryu. He uses this to justify buying 3 perks - two style perks (1 per 10 points) and one general combat perk (1 per 20). Is it fair for him to then say, when he runs in Miyagi Chojun's great-grandson in a fight, "I use a non-Goju Ryu punch on him with Deceptive Attack, and he can't ignore -1 of that because it's not a punch from his style"? I think the answer is no, and that the easiest way to control that is to just say no. The harder way is to decide what points are from what learning, and I don't play games that meticulously detailed, but I suppose you could. I just don't see the upside (do you have a Goju Ryu unch at Karate-15 but an unschooled punch at Karate-13, because that's where you were before you joined the school? Maybe, but that seems like a headache.)

A perk to say my style is no-style isn't unbalanced from a cost perspective. I just can't wrap my head around how you learn that without, basically, not learning a style in the first place.

I thought that was the end result of what T-Bone was asking about here. I'm saying "I think this is the end result of doing what is suggested" not "people suggested this end result." If I could call my strikes as being in-style or out-of-style, there is no benefit for in-style outside of a situation where throwing an in-style strike wins me some points in a competition or impresses someone. In a fight to the death, the out-of-style strike is always better because no one can ignore -1 in penalties from you. So I think the logical result is everyone chooses to do that in almost all cases. If that's going to happen, just ignore styles anyway.

That's why I answered T-Bone's question that way.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

The ability to ignore _pain_ might not be what is being taught.

Look at MCMAP. The Marine Corp doesn't teach a Style that includes familiarity with TA: Stamp Kick/ Face because the situation comes up all the time. It's a part of teaching people to ignore Reluctant Killer or even simple squeamishness.

Even in a starship you can't count on being able to defeat an enemy militarily without doing unpleasant things to him in the process.

Tournament fighters may not need this but actual defense training has to include the willingness to _hurt_ people when necessary.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

I suspect that part of it also inculcating the feeling that comes with thinking "I'm such a badass I'd stomp your face in" when combat comes along. You get a certain feeling of confidence from practicing really nasty stuff, like you're someone people shouldn't mess with. It's all part of getting people to do the violence when it comes down to it, and to feel like they're the kind of person who'd do that violence. That's why they call it "aggressiveness" training.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

I know that, but the NPC Pappy Smith doesn't talk about that reasoning to his martial arts students. The students who aren't willing to actually hurt others don't stay more than a couple years in his school. The talented ones who are also driven, he teaches for a long time. Unfortunately a few bad apples slip into the mix sometimes. The PC's enemy was a fellow student.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

So, while I'm not saying you should be free to ignore the drawback of style familiarity at no cost, I think what you're proposing now is actually contradictory with the rules in Martial Arts.

First of all, obviously, you can have the upsides of having a style without the downsides. You just need another style that your opponent doesn't know, or to use a technique outside your style. By the book it doesn't even need to be a style at all relevant to the fight you're in, though moding that seems simple and reasonable enough.

Secondly, while I don't have my Martial Arts with me right now to quote, I think you'll find it explicitly states that the same skill investment can justify perks in multiple styles, if you have them.

On the side, there aren't any rules that actually characterize your moves as belonging to a particular style...


Also, as for my own argument, I seemingly must reiterate that I'm not proposing an 'I throw a non-style punch' combat option, and never have done so. I also was in fact specifically talking about a hypothetical character who learned 'non-style' fighting by not learning a style in the first place...and then subsequently acquired a style.



The ability to learn style familiarities for styles you don't have is kind of weird. The way the perk is actually written, having that familiarity would make the Master of Defense's deceptive attacks with a polearm unpredictable to another Master of Defense who doesn't have the familiarity...

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

Prefacing this with my usual thing - I know mostly 3e. I think, as usual I failed to make this clear enough when writing (that I am using 3e for reference), and for that I apologize.

If your setting is not using the rules for styles... correct. That would be a setting where you wouldn't be able to purchase Style Familiarity to begin with... unless you like wasting points and your GM is okay with that.

Otherwise there is no such thing as a "generic" style... or perhaps there is only the "generic" version of the style. Style Familiarity is for a major branch of Martial Arts; don't micromanage it. Some official Styles from GURPS Martial Arts (well, at least 3e) are variations of the same underlying form... but usually it took something significant for the subdivision.

Martial Arts 3e has French Fencing and Italian Rapier Fencing; just looking at the Primary Skills of those two styles, you can see why they were split. The former uses Fencing (Smallsword) and Fencing Art while the Primary Skills of the latter are Cloak, Fencing (Rapier), and Main-Gauche. They have overlapping but different Secondary and Optional Skills, as well as different Maneuvers [Techniques].

So I find this idea of throwing a "generic Karate punch" self-refuting; if the strike is different enough from your own style as to not count as your own style... then it is another style.


Again, this is self-refuting. If the character didn't invent it the style his/her/itself, they learned it from someone (even indirectly, such as from written instructions). If the difference between learning Karate from studying it through text books and from learning it at an actual dojo is pronounced enough to count as a different "Style"... then it is a different style. If they are truly self-taught (everything they know about fighting comes from personal invention)... they may have their own unique style, but it isn't "generic".

If you want someone to perform a technique so that it doesn't resemble their actual style, I would consider allowing it but at a penalty depending on the circumstances.

You'll need to explain why it is "slightly perverse". Again I think you're treating personal style with martial arts style.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

There's almost no point in doing this, I'm afraid. The rules for Martial Arts didn't quite change as much as Psionic Powers (for example) between editions, but it changed a lot. You might as well be using a fluent knowledge of Portuguese for a conversation about French grammar.

Can Conan the Cimmerian have Broadsword, Wrestling, Axe/Mace, and so on? Can he have Targeted Attack (Broadsword/Neck)? Can he have 1 combat perk per 20 points in those skills and techniques? Can he do all this and not have Style Familiarity?

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

Well, perhaps that is a problem, because...
No. The rules for styles do not require that characters use them. A character with Karate at DX+2 and no other martial arts junk is perfectly fine in both a game without styles and a game that's using styles to the fullest.
Well, throwing a 'generic Karate punch' is a kind of ridiculous thing to talk about. Except in game mechanical terms, where one might use it to mean a punch thrown with Karate skill by a character with no Style Familiarity.
It's slightly perverse because I can write up a character who is a martial artist, with no style familiarity of any kind. They are not subject to the drawback of style familiarity, though of course they have none of the benefits.

Then I have that character take a few classes with a martial arts school that overlaps with their favored skills, and they acquire the style familiarity perk (after picking up a point in any skills they may be missing). They now have the drawback of having style familiarity. If they fight a practitioner of the style they studied, they will be worse at landing hits than they were before they studied it.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

If its a big issue, say that the perk reduces the deceptive attacks and feints of those using the same school or no school at all, so long as the skill they use is in the style. (skills not the style have no effect)

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

Yes, and I don't think what I said contradicts that. It's something you pay for, really, and I've got no issue with that.

Page 49, and I know that. I chose a one-style example for ease of illustration of what I see was the abuse, not because I don't know how to figure out how many perks you can buy. ;)

I'm not sure what you mean here. If a technique can be outside your style, then some "moves" can belong to a particular style.

What is it you want Hypothetical Man to get for this? Figure that out and price it out.

If he doesn't get anything he doesn't already get (see the first thing you quoted), it costs zero and just don't worry about it. If it gets him the same as if he had another style that no one knew, and thus no one could ever get the effect of knowing all of his styles, it's working basically like a new and/or secret style. It's 1 point (Unorthodox Attacks, say?) and it's not any different than anyone else who did it via another style.

Which clearly isn't the intent. I'd argue that's twisting the letter of the rules, personally, but I agree we could have made it more explicit it's a version of "know your enemy" not "you fight like your enemy and you get the full benefits of his style, including all upsides and downsides of having another Style Familiarity, without the point investment." The intent is very much the former; you chuck 1 point into SF (Italian School) as one of the Style Perks of Masters of Defence and know their moves, unless they have some other style you haven't studied. Not that you're an Italian School stylist.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

Then what is the issue exactly? I suggested paying for it back at the very beginning.
Okay, but why is it an abuse to not separate your hypothetical 'style' and 'non-style' skill investment, but not an abuse to count the same investment several times over toward perks in different skills?
There is no point in the rules where you'd need to or even be able to declare that you are using a particular style in your attack.

A punch is neither Goju Ryu nor non-Goju Ryu. It is a particular technique (or lack thereof) and is thrown by a character with particular style familiarities (or lack thereof)...but ascribing a particular style to it doesn't arise.

(Except maybe in secret techniques/calling your attacks type stuff? I don't remember those rules well.)
I did that 28 posts ago...
I figured as much. It's just that that's different in almost every respect from what a style familiarity perk as written does. Assuming, of course, that it's not supposed to grant the social benefits and no-questions-asked training and perks either.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

Just out of curiosity, has anyone addressed the issue that the self-created style may be worthless (or, at least, very ineffective)? Most martial arts are the result of generations of people figuring out what works and what doesn't. One person working on their own (specifically to avoid being too like any existing martial arts style), may not have had time to refine it.

Pretty sure Martial Arts has rules for this...

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

Maybe there should be a Style Knowledge perk for those styles one can use, and a Style Familiarity for those styles one has studied to know the enemy.

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

Well, then what are you trying to convince me of? You've got the answer you need for your games . . .

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

Well, when I proposed it back in post #23, you disagreed in post #29. The rest seems straightforward enough...

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

Thanks.

Based on what I had read in this thread... it didn't seem that different, at least relative to the specific things I have commented on. I have not, for example, worried about "Perks". I will point out that I regularly used English words that had a common root to deduce the meaning of Spanish words (and then learn them) in Spanish, and did the same with both when taking Latin. ;)

So now someone needs to explain to me why some of the "abuses" are abuses... or at least abuses when following both the letter and the intent of the law. One of the purposes of recognizing martial arts styles it to allow more depth and realism within the game. I don't understand how, once you go into that territory, someone can have "no style".

In game terms, what does the penalties from facing (bonuses from using?) an unfamiliar style against an opponent represent?

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

The effect is that if you have Style Familiarity, and your opponent also has Style Familiarity with every style you do, your Deceptive Attack's effectiveness is reduced by one (unless you use a technique that doesn't belong to your style).

I believe what it represents is that they know pretty well how people who fight like you fight, so they can anticipate the ways you try to get around their defense.

You can have no style by not having any style familiarity. Really nothing complicated about it. Using styles in a game does not forbid not using styles. (Somewhat akin to how using powers does not forbid 'wild' advantages.)

Re: Why learn a martial art?
 

Not sure if I am following, but I definitely see the folly of interjecting myself into this conversation, for which I do apologize. It is too much like referencing one language to try and comprehend something similar (me posting, not the topic at hand); while some terms match up, others don't. Useful term by term, but not for anything overly complex, which I now understand would be this situation.

Yes... I was being rather thick. >.>

Just to explain where I am coming from... Style Familiarity used to be an Advantage for styles the character was not proficient with; without it you defended at -1 against attacks from someone using a style you didn't know. It was not associated with the character's own proficiency in the style.

If a setting was bothering to use "Styles" as more than flavor, any given method of combat technically had a style; it is just that outside of real world "martial arts" there often was little reason to dwell on the differences. It may be a "double standard", but to a degree it was justified; players weren't really worried if how one culture used a sword was different from another unless the differences were already extreme enough (re: different skills or different "styles" of the same skill) to bother keeping track.

So getting back to the topic at hand... even if RAW states you can have a "generic" martial arts style, I'd personally would require the player back it up or pay for any advantages generated (as compared to having a specified style). Unlike a wild version of an advantage, we are discussing how one represents the performance of a related series of actions and utilizes a body of knowledge. It is one thing to have (for example) the "wild" generic version of Luck in an "all in" Powers heavy setting - Luck there can still just represent the manipulation of game mechanics, of exchanging points for a more desirable outcome.

This feels more like trying to get a second Native language for free... though I don't remember how 4e handles that (for 3e it was just a Special Effect or Unusual Background cost similar in price to simply buying the language up to that proficiency). The difference is being born into a bilingual family (or environment) is a lot more likely than inventing your own form of advanced combat skills.