When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Assume a guy that is a default GURPS character (no advantages or disadvantages), except for having Unkillable. This guy takes a lot of damage, but is still kicking at -7xHP. Then something happens, and his Unkillable "goes down". Maybe someone used a temporary Affliction with Negated Advantage (Unkillable) on him. Maybe it had the Magic PM and he was moved into a No Mana zone or someone used Static (Magic) around him.

I'm assuming the character... just up and dies right there and then, suddenly a lot more mangled than he appeared before. This could be particularly horrible of a transformation if he had the No Visible Damage perk. The gruesome corpse collapses, and everyone cheers.

And then whatever shut down the Unkillable is gone. The Affliction timed out, or the guy with the Static shut it off or teleported away or died. Does the guy come back to life as long as he is above -10xHP (which he is, at -8xHP), or even at -10xHP if his Unkillable was of the level 2 or 3 varieties? Or does he stay dead, barring things like resurrection?

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

I've got a feeling that's a world-building decision.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Yeah, it depends on the reason why the character is unkillable. If "temporarily shutting down unkillable" is something to worry about in your campaign world, you might want to modify point cost depending on what answer goes.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Considering that Resurrection advantages (like the one in Divine Favor) are built with Unkillable (Cosmic: Works Only on the Dead, +50%) I'd say it's a safe bet having unmodified Unkillable turn back on won't revive the character.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Unkillable stops you from dying properly. It doesn't really bring you back from the dead - it puts you in states which prevent you from properly dying (invulnerable skeleton or analogue, incorporeal spirit, etc).

If someone bypassess that and kills you, your Unkillable can't come back on and retroactively stop you from dying - you're already dead!

You want a hindrance, not a power source, if you want them to "come back" after someone turns the power back on.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Yeppers. Add Time-Spanning to fix that, GM permitting.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Well, except for the "Resurrection Lite" ruling from DIVINE FAVOR lets "didn't die" stuff still work when it comes on later, even on people who died without having it to begin with.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

That's why I say it's a world building decision. It revolves around "How dead is dead?"

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Doesn't it have a level of Cosmic on it? I can't remember.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

The Lite version lacks Cosmic entirely, saying retroactive Extra Life is a 0% feature.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Transient effects do not follow into death. Unless the Nuetralize or Affliction invoke permanent duration, they don't prevent Unkillable 2/3. The Unkillable 1 guy, however, is quite dead.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

In the absence of a clear RAW answer or an official verdict, I'm going with this interpretation. Makes the most sense to me.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Except they did prevent the special effects of Unkillable 2/3 from occurring, meaning that they too are still dead. Both abilities do something important at the point of normal death which circumvent death from happening, without the ability this special effect doesn't happen which allows them to die like anyone else.

This is why sometimes Extra Life is useful, although someone with Extra Life (Mana Dependant, -10%) who dies in an ordinary no-mana zone would be out of luck. Dragging their corpse out of that area should in theory restore them back to life however.

Ultimately though, this is what the GM is for, making an interpretation of the rules when there's no clear answer. So it comes down to what they decide happens where - so try to bribe them with snack food till they see things your way.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

I look at it the same way I would afflicting someone with Fragile (Unnatural), which auto-kills you at any negative HP level. If you get afflicted with that, and you're under the HP total, you die, and you don't come back when the affliction ends.

But yes, this can also be solved in a world-building scenario, but I'd say the default is that you are dead and do not come back to life.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

I think it's open to question whether an Unkillable 3 character really had their death circumvented as opposed to just coming back from it. Of course with Unkillable 3 characters, the body is irrelevant.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

This raises the question of how you build a kind of UK that does bring the person back after it is no longer disrupted. Time-Spanning?

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Sunrunners_Fire suggested that. Makes sense to me.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

For the record, I fall firmly on the side of Extra Life is slightly better than Unkillable in this regard, but that's as much for the "I hate watching 25 points evaporate off of someones character sheet" issue as any. If you're going to suffer permanent point damage, you might as well get all the bang for your buck.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Except Unkillable 3 states "at -10xHP, you become a ghost, an energy pattern, or some other incorporeal form that cannot be contained or damaged through normal means." - that is to say, it does not say "whilst dead, your ghost/energy pattern etc can reform".

Hitting -10xHP triggers an event which avoids ordinary death from occurring and just takes you out of the game for a while in a state that can't be tampered with. If when you hit -10xHP (or just die) and you don't have this advantage currently, well this affect doesn't occur you become a regular old dead person, who may have a ghost - but not the sort that puts its body back together so it can return to life.

It's like if you had an advantage with a trigger effect that gave you +10ST, when the advantage is currently negated (due to its power source being blocked/the advantage being removed via affliction etc) it doesn't matter how many times you're exposed to that trigger - you don't have the advantage so you don't gain the ST.
Even after your power comes back, you still don't get the ST, you must be exposed to that trigger whilst you have the advantage to gain the affect.

Death (or the -10xHP limit after ignoring death checks all the way up to it) is the trigger event for Unkillable, reaching it without having Unkillable active does the same thing as it would ordinarily do - and gaining the advantage later does no good as the trigger event has already passed. In short, this is a valid way to "kill for good" a monster with this trait (in addition to any Achilles’ Heels they may have).

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Apparently dead people still have privileged status as characters who can be the subject of effects, per the ruling in re Resurrection Lite by RPK himself.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

That doesn't really make a difference in this situation. Having any version of Unkillable means you "never make a HT roll to stay alive", up until you reach the -10xHP threshold. When you get to that threshold one of three things will happen depending on your ability, you will either die (Unkillable 1), you will fall unconscious and automatically prevent any damage that would push you past -10xHP (Unkillable 2), or you will become a non-physical entity that can't be trapped or damaged at all (Unkillable 3).

If you don't currently have any of these, then none of that applies, regardless of why you don't have the advantage (be it "I didn't buy it" or "it's currently off" or "it's currently negated"). This means you do roll death checks and can die, and even if you did get to -10xHP you don't get the special effect for hitting that threshold (other than now being a smear or lump of ash, which can't be restored to life). So if you're slain, your corpse can be affected by as many effects as it likes - but even a restored/afflicted copy of the Unkillable advantage doesn't do anything for you whilst you're a corpse.

Unkillable doesn't 'resurrect' you when you die, it just allows you to ignore death checks until that set trigger event, where it then kicks in to prevent death once more and stops you from running off into negative infinity HP. You can mutilate the corpse after death till it reaches -10xHP if you like, but it doesn't allow Unkillable 2 and 3 to restore you to life. A corpse with Unkillable 2 or 3 at -10xHP is allowed to "heal normally" - but when your dead this just allows you to continue 'not healing' as all good corpses do, even if you're now an energy pattern of a corpse or an indestructible skeletal corpse.

Hmm... indestructible skeletal corpses sound like a fun type of Undead monsters... and Unkillable does say that "With the GM’s permission ... you can trade in Unkillable and use the points to buy a spirit or undead racial template (if such things exist in the setting), becoming a ghost, revenant, etc." which I think would apply in this case. So there is still technically a loop hole to play with here. So you wouldn't be dead anymore, just Undead, which is fine - as you did properly die for once. Good luck to the PCs who thought they'd put you down for good, hey?

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

I guess all this makes sense. Then perhaps Time Spanning on any level of Unkillable (or, for that matter, Supernatural Durability) if you want it to restore you to life in case it's down when you're... down. Is Time Spanning the right enhancement? Or does it need a beefier thing, like Cosmic: Works on the dead (which, on the Resurrection build, is applied to the Affliction, not the embedded Unkillable advantage).

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

I prefer the Cosmic, simply because waking up again before your "killer" leaves is probably a bad idea.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Time Spanning is almost a version of Cosmic in and of itself, and would allow you to recover should the negating affect be removed. Note that any permanent affects (which may be true permanent or "special condition to dispel" permanent) or any persistent local conditions that are negating the power would still thwart this version until appropriate dealt with - likely by a still living partner.

Using Cosmic to add utility (generally costed at 50%) that would allow you to come back from actual death should you reacquire (or acquire for the first time) Unkillable 2 or 3 is pretty much the same as Time Spanning - so see above.

Adding Cosmic as a power source would mean that only an affliction that also paid to remove a Cosmic version of the ability would affect it. This is a prevention rather than cure, but it does neatly avoid the problem. Until whoever had the original Affliction has some more CP to pump into a new Affliction to include Cosmic Unkillable (which if they want you dead, I'm sure they'll do). Although ensuring your power source isn't one that is easily disabled/weakened is generally wise for something which you're relying on 24/7 though, so no Unkillable (Magical, -10%) if you can help it.

If the game you're using has multiple levels of Cosmic then taking the highest level as a power source will help a lot, but again, is still not proof. You could go on the offensive and attempt to negate the force which is removing your Unkillable advantage, like picking up Mana Enhancer if your Unkillable is magical. Using your own Affliction to negate other Afflictions could work in theory too - but you're basically just engaging in an arms race by this point, anything you can do can be undone by anyone who knows how you did it and is able to use it first.

Oh, and as has been said before, some levels of Extra Life on top of Unkillable can help in these situations to make up for when Unkillable is down. Note that these can be negated just like Unkillable can though, so its just another layer of defence and another lock that needs to be broken before you're down and out for good.

In GURPS, there is no way to become entirely invulnerable, you can try pretty hard and get very close - but death comes for everyone eventually. Nothing lasts forever, so I'd suggest making peace with the fact that even the Unkillable die, and just attempt to assassinate those silver bullet carrying antagonists before they get a shot off on you.

EDIT:
One last thing, picking up multiple copies of the same advantage but with different sources can be a good way to add yet another layer of defence - as all of them would have to be taken down before you were vulnerable. However anyone determined enough can overcome this, and really, you could just be spending your CP on being more powerful by this point! Paranoid turtling of your powers will only get you so far, eventually you'll get so weak comparatively that it wont matter if you're alive or not - you're not doing anything meaningful any more.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

I don't know if the argument is really settled here.

One one hand, yes I get the idea; Unkillable 2/3 trigger at a specific point; if something blocks that from triggering... you die and it can't trigger again, right?

Depends upon the character, the GM, and the setting. Maybe I just missed it in RAW (I no longer have a copy of Characters or Powers handy to peruse at my leisure), but I don't recall this being explicitly stated.

So I believe that a GM is within his or her rights (ignoring the option to flat out ignore/rewrite the rules anyway, so long as the group is in agreement and they don't mind the risk of "breaking" the system) to say "The entire point of [insert character's/] Unkillable 3 is that even if they die... they get better. Kill them in a place where the advantage is being negated, and their body will sit there and rot. Their soul gets stuck in limbo... until the negation ends. Then the advantage "checks" says "Okay, conditions met to trigger" and triggers.

I am not saying that this is not generous (it is), but especially in a setting where this is how it is meant to work anyway, the GM shouldn't need to add an Enhancement to justify it.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

A setting where 'this is how it works' will likely have a bunch of toggles and dials set so that other stuff 'just works like this' - at which point, yes feel free to allow it without any extra Enhancements.

After all, in a setting where Unkillable folk are so incredibly rare there are only a handful of unique individuals with it - and as such have to pay for an UB to acquire it (thus raising the cost of the advantage). Equally in a setting where death is cheap and characters literally respawn all the time (emulating a computer game world, for instance) then it may actually be given to everyone for "free" by just making it mandatory and raising the assumed CP level so that everyone can easily accommodate it.

That said, the rules are still there for when you're not twisting the dials all the way in one direction. In the case of someone having invested in a power specifically designed to negate the Unkillable advantage or allowing Unkillable to have a power source that can be overcome - then I think its fair to say "tough luck, you went up against the True-Slayers and really-actually-died because of it" or "tough luck, you let yourself get cornered and killed in a no-mana zone, that's you really-actually-dead".

As I said in my first post:
So if they rule it one way, those are the rules now.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

A thought occurs: Unkillable 2/3 check for -10x hp. If you died due to negation at -7x hp, technically, neither will trigger by their own rules. In order to get better, you would need somebody to come along and mutilate what's left of your corpse, which I'm sure anybody intending to kill the unkillable would prevent, probably by just burying you immediately.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

That doesn't read as a one-off 'triggers at the threshold' to me. It reads as a state change. Thus if the ability was turned off and you hit -10xHP, you'd die, and then when it turned back on, you'd change state to a ghost and start healing.

The way I see it:

Unkillable 1 - Once you're dead, you're dead. This level just suppresses the checks (including the auto-fail ones at -5xHP and below) until you hit -10xHP, so should you fail one and die while the ability is 'off', too bad.

Unkillable 2 - Normally at -10xHP you're an 'indestructible skeleton' (though I expect many GMs would vary that for flavour - some might be just a skull, others, their indestructible ever-beating heart). If the ability is turned off, and then on again, I'd say you're okay as long as you didn't hit -10xHP while it was turned off - if you were, well your 'core' wasn't invulnerable and it's paste just like the rest of you. Tough luck, mate - you're gone.

Unkillable 3 - As I mentioned earlier, you really are impossible to remove permanently - once your ability is no longer suppressed, you start coming back.

This gives Unkillable 3 more for the extra 50 points than 'should the GM be merciful you're harder to capture once 'killed' than Unkillable 2'. EDIT - Essentially, I'm looking at Unkillable 3 as Unkillable 2 + Cosmic.

One thing I do wonder though - how does one model someone who is 'unkillable' in a similar way to Unkillable 2, except that they have to make death checks normally, and then start healing up as with Unkillable 2 once they've 'died'? Extra Life is not an option - this ability is unlimited, whereas Extra Life is limited.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Sounds like a new version of Unkillable, at 50 points, since its basically Unkillable 2 without the features of Unkillable 1.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Not Unkillable 1 is a -20% modifier.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

That's about what I was thinking, but I'm wondering what your logic for that is?

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

I disagree, once you hit that threshold nothing can affect you until you hit full HP again. It also never happens unless you hit that threshold, get to 1HP off of -10xHP and nothing noteworthy happen - hit it and it triggers the event. It doesn't matter that the event is a state change or not, it's still dependant on the trigger for your state to change.

Note that Unkillable 3 doesn't do anything whilst you're in your 'ghost state' other than prevent damage, capture, and let you heal normally. Except dead things don't heal, so normally healing does you no good. Just because you're a 'ghostly' corpse doesn't mean you heal any better than a regular corpse.

If the advantage said "When you die, instead become a ghost and heal back to full HP" then this would be different - but this is not what it says. Unkillable 2 and 3 never let you die, they prevent death from ever occurring whilst they're active. If however you die whilst they're not active, then you're dead, and need to be resurrected via normal means rather than relying on Unkillable to do the heavy lifting.

I can see how some may look at the name and say "but gee, shouldn't you not be able to die then?" but a name is just a name. Unkillable 1 is really just "Requires total body destruction before death", Unkillable 2 is "Body can never be truly destroyed and always regenerates back, but can be trapped forever to prevent regeneration", whilst Unkillable 3 is "Unkillable 2 but can now no longer be trapped and may reform at a different location than death/where body currently resides".

I again reiterate that if you've allowed Unkillable to have a power source that can be blocked, or allow someone to spend CP to acquire a power specifically designed to remove Unkillable - then that should mean something. The duration on the Affliction to remove Unkillable just means that once you're hit with it, you can flee (rather than fight) and eventually recover and not have to worry about dying again - it should not mean you have to wait an extra hour or two after being killed before you start coming back again.

If you do say that once the Affliction has expired you come back, then every version of the Affliction will have 'Extended Duration Permanent (no dispel condition) +300%' slapped onto it because it would be useless otherwise! Equally you can expect any Mana Dependant versions of Unkillable to have their bodies cremated down to -10xHP within a no-mana zone so the body can't be dragged out allowing them to come back. Basically - all you're doing is making it a little more costly and requiring a little more effort, but you're still not preventing Unkillable folk from being killed.

As as it takes a lot of CP to remove Unkillable 3 via an Affliction as it is, I don't really think it needs to be made any more expensive. You're also making more problems for yourself promoting the necessity for this version of the Affliction, because now you need only be hit with it once to be robbed of your 150CP investment. They don't even need to try and kill you right away, once your power is gone they can take as long as they like, and you'll never get better without saving up another 150CP to buy the ability back again.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

So, for 50 points over Unkillable 2, you're good with "Can't be trapped if the GM is in a friendly mood"? Note that it states that your new body forms where the GM chooses. It doesn't even state that the GM has to choose when you take the power, or that he has to tell you where it is prior to your 'death', or that it has to be the same place each time. Now, for 50 extra points I'd expect the GM to be generous and reasonable, but even something like "Your body will form at your home in a place of your choosing, for any reasonable value of 'home'" seems to me to not be worth 50 extra points. My interpretation seems to me to be 1) closer to worth those extra points, and 2) within the wording and intent.
It does mean something - it means that anyone with only Unkillable 1-2 is dead, and that even Unkillable 3 (150 points of advantage that only applies when damaged to the point where normal people die, mind) won't stop you being killed and your body captured, at which point the advantage can be continually suppressed unless you're rescued, etc. Oh, and a 'permanent' affliction prevents even Unkillable 3 from saving you until it is somehow removed.

Only if Unkillable 3 beings are a common threat.
I'm not sure how this is even an issue.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

A Kromm post re-quoted in half a dozen threads.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

That's a source, not logic. Logic is "Sure you may die easier if you remove the benefits of Unkillable 1 from Unkillable II, but you also come back easier since you'll have fewer negative hit points to heal up."

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

I'm not following, at what point does the GM's mood affect if you can be trapped or not? Unkillable 3 means you can't be 'trapped' and prevented from healing back to life - whilst Unkillable 2 means you can be (whether you are or not is dependant on how and where you died, and how much your foes know about your ability to come back).

Where you appear when you return to life is incidental, the fact that your corpse can't be chucked into a volcano/sunk to the bottom of the sea/etc and forgotten about is what you're paying the extra points for. They're very well spent in that regard too, as it means that if you are reduced to -10xHP you can't be kept in that state by external measures.

Don't forget that those extra 50cp also have to be accounted for in the Affliction too, so you're passively making it more costly to negate the advantage too. Also, your proposal for "it means something" is "you can just spend your life repeatedly hitting them with negation..." that's hardly meaningful - the second you stop doing that they still come back in your opinion, which makes it useless as a means of overcoming the advantage.

I said the +300% version of Permanent, meaning there is no means of removing it.

Not really, if your characters entire shtick is being able to slay the unslayable - then you're going to want to actually be able to do that.
What's the good in killing something only for it to stay dead fractionally longer than it would've otherwise?? Yeah you may be able to take down a formally Unkillable foe quicker when they have to roll death checks, but if you can't keep them dead then what's the point?
If you're saying that Unkillable 3 always come back when their ability is restored, then anyone who's bought Affliction (Negate Unkillable 3) will make it a non-dispelably permanent too - or why are they even bothering to get it?

So you're happy for an Unkillable 3 (Mana Dependant) person to get properly killed (without any chance of coming back) via destruction of their corpse whilst in a no-mana zone? If so then I don't see why you've issue with negating the advantage with Affliction as a means to kill them for good. Or are you saying that you're happy that they won't come back only if their body is entirely destroyed whilst the ability is unactive?

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Hey, if no part of their body ever leaves the No Mana Zone, they're pretty much toast. Or, you know, just bury them with a high level mana damper.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Afflictions can be cured via Healing w/ Cure Afflictions.

Permanent vs Permanent w/ Dispelling Conditions simply means that the thing doesn't have its' own specific little ritual that automatically breaks it if you spring for the +300% version.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Add Cosmic 50% and the healing needs Cosmic to heal the affliction.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Because the GM chooses where your Unkillable 3 character comes back, not you.
Where is not incidental at all. It could be very useful, or an enormous drawback, depending where it is.
And by default Unkillable is, because it's a standard advantage, 'Permanent', and yet here we are, looking at someone who has had it removed.
I don't know. Why is anyone bothering to get Unkillable when people can build powers that simply remove it? And why should a temporary suppression of a 150-point power work as well as permanent removal, which is what you're advocating?
Not at all. The way I see it, Unkillable 3 in that no-mana zone is dead until the mana level about their corpse is raised. What I wonder about your earlier post is why it's relevant that people 'have' to buy a bigger power. The whole thing smacks of an arms race between players and GM to me, and if that's the case the exact details of how various abilities interact is the least of the campaign's problems.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

I'm beginning to think that in this thread are a whole bunch of players who hold guns to their GM's head whilst getting their characters approved. 'Cosmic' this, 'Cosmic' that.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

True. However, Cosmic, Lingering Effect and/or Unhealing (whichever you feel is more appropriate) is worth +100% and is defeated by any Cosmic at the +50% level -- the arms race stops there; fortunately.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Heh. Not in my case. I'm (almost exclusively) the GM in any game I'm participating in. I'm quite fine with Cosmic, though I don't call it Cosmic as I reserve that for the actual power source/modifier rather than for a general use 'rules exemption' enhancement.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Thankfully, Cosmic vs Cosmic resolves as normal abilities.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Good point. Full destruction of ones corpse does seem to be a necessity to ensure no-one Heals what's left of the corpse if you're going under the assumption that death is just a temporary state for an Unkillable character (I'm still not prescribing to this vain of thought however). It does mean that if you just hit an Unkillable with the Affliction and run away thinking they'll never get better, then you'd be wrong though. Thanks for pointing that out.

I really don't see why this should matter at all, we're debating if you come back or not - the drawbacks or benefits of where you come back is still dependant on if you come back at all. +50CP to say that your corpse can't be caught in molten streams deep within the earth is pretty useful in my opinion, as Mr Unkillable 2 really only needs to be sunk into a volcano to leave him with a few million years of continual damage to be suppressed by.

Because should Mr Unkillable not run into Mr SlayItAll then they're still never rolling death checks and never dying. That is like saying "Why is Mr Psi bothering to get any Psi powers when other people can build devices or acquire powers to remove them from him?" - the answer is the same, because they're very useful when you've not run into your nemesis with your anti-power.

It isn't. You still have to actually kill them whilst the temporary affect is active. Which if its only a window of a few minutes, and Mr Unkillable doesn't want to die (so flees/plays extra defensive) then you have a much harder time of achieving your goals than when you've all the time in the world (unless they find a Healer) to kill them.

So you're saying total body destruction, where they're no more than an ash shadow on the wall of a no-mana zone still wouldn't kill them for good if the area became normal mana? Even though there is nothing left to come back from by this point? This seems implausible to me, you can't own the atomic remnants of what you once were, if there's nothing left - there's nothing to exist in (or out of) the no-mana zone any more. Mr Unkillable is both dead and doesn't exist - that really should be them gone for good, in my book.

I never said you have to, I was asked how you would overcome this limitation - I suggest many ways to up the stakes. I even said that it basically just becomes an arms race because you can't just keep up-ing the stakes effectively and there will always be a set of circumstances to kill anything in GURPS. Your best bet is to cover as many weak spots and possible and play smart, really.

----

Look, I've presented my argument a few times now, I justified it as best I could, and in doing so have convinced myself that it's a sound concise answer that holds up to the logical rigours of the system. I've attempted to implement the standard rules of the system rather than adding extra special rules for power, as such my ruling correlates with every other ability in the game. Nothing says you can't add special rules, and if the wording of Unkillable was different then it may well define those special rules - but currently it doesn't in my opinion.

I'm happy for you to make your own rulings though, if you're not convinced by my argument then there's not much more I can do at this point other than repeat myself in different words. As I've no vested interest in winning you over, I'm not going to do this. This is firmly in the GMs domain anyway, in a setting where you can't buy Affliction (Negate Unkillable 3) this entire debate is moot. In a setting where players are frequently picking up Unkillable and there are entities in the world who can negate it - then its entirely up to GM to inform the players of this and explain what happens if they die whilst it's negated (whatever that ruling may be). I said similar in my first post.

So I think I'm calling it a day for this debate now, been fun though.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

I think both sides have presented sound cases, myself; unless I hear otherwise from an "official" source, I think this is something the GM should decide before hand (that way if they are not aligning with the rules as intended, it was still a conscious decision and can be written off as part of the game world).

I will bring up two questionable statements; not because they prove/disprove someone wrong but because they smack of miscommunication.

Many Psi Powers are useful in a much wider set of circumstances than Unkillable. In fact, the divide is between Powers/Abilities that either are actively keeping the character alive or are expected to trigger to save the character from death, and not knowing it was a possibility, let alone coming. Mr. Negator can come across as a very "cheap" (that is, unfair) character. The guy that can't die doesn't realize he can die until he's half (or more) dead.

The Psi on the other hand might realize it just because he tries to "read" Mr. Negator and can't. If Mr. Psi was levitating to fly through the air at high altitudes, speeds, or especially both and Mr. Negator hits him with a surprise whammy so that now he's just falling at high speeds... that's cheap as well.

This is especially true as Mr. Negator might be near incapable without catching others off guard. Unless the game is supposed to be that difficult, he should be there the whole time or not at all. "Zombie Lad takes another full burst of machine gun fire from The Perforator's weapons. Your Unkillable 3 means you're still functional. That is until Mr. Negator just shows up behind you. Now you're dead... and I mean dead dead forever more. Hope you have a new character ready or you're done for the night." In short, give them fair warning.

Actually, since he mentioned a corpse, he isn't including total body destruction, or at least this was an assumption. Otherwise... this fits many settings with Unkillable. There are characters who require total (or constant) obliteration to effectively kill. Often (especially for villains), they are introduced because the last "constant kill" or "power suppression" effect finally broke down. Magic was restored to the land, so the Super-Lich rises again. The Cosmic Threat had to be tossed into the heart of the sun to constantly destroy his body... but a solar flare finally ejected enough of him from the sun and a solar wind carried that far enough away that his component molecules could at last safely drift back together in the void of space.

Again, all this stuff needs to be worked out ahead of time by the GM, and explained to the PC if/when the Advantage comes up.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Total body destruction isn't an issue with Unkillable 3. You get a new body anyway. The question which is on my mind is, assuming that the world does have ghostly life after death which isn't messed with by no mana zones, could said ghost come back to life...if the world building decision is to have souls be genuinely immortal, could one of those ghosts with magical Unkillable 3 come back should the site of its death have its mana raised?

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

This should be something you ask the GM when making the character. In the end it's the GM's choice if it works one way or the other.
If the GM says no, you can't come back in that (or a similar) situation, then either accept that or see of you can take an enhancement to make it work the way you want.
My preference is to making Unkillable actually that. A GM who looks at someone who spent a good deal of points on being unable to die shouldn't be thinking "OK, now how can I make them die?", there are plenty of other ways to endanger the character.
You are an immortal with unkillable 3, so you think you can do anything with no repercussions (aside for an unexpected nap whenever you die), the police eventually catch you and lock you up. Well, how do you escape? You used your points on that Unkillable 3, not insubstantial or amazing levels of ST or whatever else. You could try to kill yourself to escape, but they'll probably just respond by putting you in a straightjacket.
-It's not going to keep you forever, but even if you can last forever, PCs won't see things in the long term like the character would, to them, their beloved immortal they spent weeks convincing the GM to let them have is now unable to do anything.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

If somebody knows your UK3 requires some level of mana to work, aside from killing you in an NMZ, they're going to bury your body with some form of mana damper. If you just happen to fail a death check due to accidental bad things in the NMZ? Yeah, the ghost could probably form a new body if the mana level is somehow raised.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Assuming being a ghost is not dependent on mana itself e.g. not directly tied to Unkillable 3 (Magical, -10%) or whatever the modifier is. In some settings, everyone will become a ghost (and Unkillable 3 is mostly about your body rebuilding itself), while in others you only have a shot at becoming a ghost... while in most of my settings it would require something extraordinary (at least by real world standards). The instant you are truly dead (emphasis on "truly" if I want the setting to have some wiggle room), you're heading to whatever the setting's afterlife is.

In which case moving the corpse from a no mana zone to a mana zone can have unpredictable results... well, at least from the PC's perspective. The main thing is that I'd inform the players of this ahead of time unless it was an explicit part of the campaign setting that they can have Unkillable 3 but not know for sure what happens if it is negated.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Only in the kinds of settings with the kinds of metaphysics that Raise Dead is intended (boxed and specifically called out for). In a way those are settings in which Unkillable 3 is already a campaign feature, with the limitation that you need to be "Rezz'd" in some fashion by your party.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

That would fubar Universality, though. Build X is supposed to do the same game mechanical thing and to cost the same amount of points in each world, while the utility ofdoing so is where the setting detail matters. Gills on a desert world is the usual example.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

In a setting without miracle working holy people none of the powers in Divine Favor work, yet that doesn't effect the cost. Why is Raise Dead (and it's specific call-out box) any different?

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

No more than no mana universes do or universes with cinematic switches that nerf guns.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Really it doesn't. The box specifically calls out the setting assumptions that Raise Dead needs. That's like saying that Cool Under Fire fubars Universality because it only really works in games with Situational Awareness.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

An Affliction that gives the target Dependency (Aging) is an alternative for dealing with Unkillable foes. Unkillable does not prevent death due to aging (and not even Unaging helps against Dependancy (aging))

Affliction (Dependency (Common; Constantly; Aging)+65%; 100x duration +80%) [25] lasts long enough to age the afflicted target for 200 years per margin of failure and costs no more than an Affliction that negates Unkillable 3.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

If an Unkillable character dies of old age, they revive in peak health, which includes not being 800 years old. Of course, you can still encase them in cement or otherwise incapacitate them long-term while they're down.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

The description of Unkillable in the Basic Set says

"By default, you age normally, and
will eventually die of old age. To be
truly immortal, combine Unkillable
with Unaging"

Also the description does not say anything about reviving in peak health. It just says

"you heal normally –
even if you’ve been hacked to pieces –
and any severed body parts will grow
back"

It would be really weird if you could greatly improve the point value of a character who starts at old age by acquiring Unkillable ands killing yourself.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Starting old doesn't really give you any points, though.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

It does not, but many old people would have far more points if they were returned to peak health.

For example a possible character concept is a very old person who was an elite athlete in his youth, but whose body has deteriorated due to age. Him being restored to peak health could greatly increase his point value.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Unkillable 2 reduces you to an indestructible skeleton, so, it's kind of hard to have any sort of blood or soft tissue to have any poison left in your system.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Still fixed. You're brought to perfect health, unless you took the points to have something wrong with you as a disadvantage.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

In which book is that stated? As I pointed out earlier, the Basic Set definitely does not say that.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Emphasis mine. It's been said that Unkillable 2 doesn't have to mean your skeleton is indestructible (and even then it's only invulnerable once you hit -10x HP), but can be any "core" of the character, their skull, heart, ect. for a humanoid.
As for the poison, I tend to treat poison as a Cyclic Innate Attack, if you die by it, you won't be able to recover until the poison has run it's course (assuming there is still enough of a body for the poison to exist inside of). After it's left the body, you'll start to heal up again. The poison is basically a constant source of damage keeping you in your death-like state, but unless you're receiving new sources of poison, it won't keep you dead forever.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

No, Unkillable 2 allows complete regrowth of the body from nothing more than a heart or an acorn. You can't really permanently cripple anyone with Unkillable 2 through violence.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Though I believe it's been clarified that Unkillable 2's regrowth only kicks in at -10XHP, meaning someone could cut off all your limbs taking you to around -4XHP. At which point you could have a great deal of difficulty getting yourself to -10XHP.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Kicks in at "death" if you have the Mortal limitation. Otherwise, yeah, I don't think you'll fail enough bleeding rolls to hit -10x HP.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Sounds fair, except it would be [76], not [86]. Well, assuming you accept that [40] is an appropriate cost for Regrowth, anyway - RPK's suggestion of [10] is probably better, and would make Unkillable 2 (no Regrowth) worth [94].

Up to the GM, but by default capped to -80%. I'd go with -90% on RPK's price, personally, making it functionally a Perk. So, RAW would be Unkillable 2 (Minor Regrowth Only) [84], using -90% on RPK's price would be Unkillable 2 (Minor Regrowth Only ) [95].

Who says the new body has to be completely intact? If the character's new body has all its old piercings, tattoos, scars, etc, it doesn't seem outlandish for it to be missing whatever bits the character was before he died (what happens to his body after he dies, however, doesn't matter).

Maybe as a Switchable Disadvantage Perk. Better yet, just give yourself a suicide ability. Note that all of that is assuming you'll only be able to use the ability once - for someone with Unkillable 2/3, being able to kill yourself after a couple of minutes of uninterrupted concentration is probably a Perk, the others lack the 1/5th price multiplier for Single Use (meaning Suicide Bomb is probably worth [5]/level).

Failing that, bite your tongue. No, you probably won't actually bleed to death from it, but you can fill your mouth with blood and then breathe that in instead of swallowing it. Blocks up your lungs and makes you choke to death. Not the most pleasant way to go, but beats rolling around on your stumps looking for a cliff to fall off of. You may be able to do similar if there's anything you can swallow near at hand, like dirt. Just keep trying until your cough reflex can't keep up. If you have Doesn't Breathe, well, sucks to be you.

On that topic, I assume Unkillable 2/3 is intended to include Doesn't Breathe and Doesn't Eat or Drink as well. Requiring a breathable atmosphere for the corpse to regenerate seems legitimate, so you could probably have No "Doesn't Breathe" for [-12], but only with Unkillable 2. With Doesn't Eat or Drink, lack of this takes a bit of thought. I'd argue that you can consume any legitimate food or water within your corpse's immediate area (a couple yards, say), which takes the form of it spoiling/rotting or becoming tainted/evaporating more rapidly than it should. This likely requires friendly characters leaving offerings for you. Once you're out of food in the immediate area, I'd let you use Survival, Scrounging, or similar to virtually gather more food and water - this would take the form of a local taint. With Unkillable 3, you can do the same, but you have the added bonuses that offerings (left either specifically for you, or general "for the dead" offerings, although there may be some competition for the latter) work regardless of where they are left, and you can use Survival/Scrounging anywhere you could reform. Either way, it's [-6].

Do note, however, that if using this interpretation characters who have Dependency, Restricted Diet, or similar will need to buy an Advantage that negates these while dead; this is functionally a -60% Limitation on the relevant Disadvantage. Not purchasing these will mean they have similar restrictions while regenerating.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Well first of all, your arithmetic is wrong. Apart from that, that isn't how limitation values are calculated because advantages aren't constructed that way. But what it boils down to is that if you can't regenerate lost parts you can't come back from death anyway.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Not entirely true, you may be able to regrow lost fleshy bits, but nothing that requires a skeleton, such as limbs.
Though I think that's worth at most a -5% to Unkillable, mainly because I agree with pricing Regrowth at 10 points, and even then, you still need to be able to regrow those fleshy bits, so Regrowth would have to be limited slightly further for that calculation.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Or a head.

Re: When Unkillable Shuts Down...
 

Okay, so it couldn't be taken on it's own assuming a basic humanoid. But what if we assumed that you also either A) had No head or B) Took other Limitations, such as Achilles Heel (Decapitation) ?