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-   -   4E's hit point philosophy (https://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=113133)

sir_pudding 07-21-2013 02:00 AM

Re: 4E's hit point philosophy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Verjigorm (Post 1615867)
Here's the problem. Let's say we have two age of sail warships facing off. On one of these ships are our intrepid PCs, and they are actually TIME TRAVELLERS(or dimension hoppers, whatever) with some TL8 weaponry. Like say, a single M2HB machine gun. What happens? The games that focus on age of sail combat are great at handling age of sail combat, but when you throw anachronistic devices in, it creates a problem.

Mass Combat should still work.

I still really don't see the difference between "Lets have our 700 guys fight their 700 guys!" and "Lets have our 1st rate Ship fight their 1st rate ship." You wouldn't try to do the former with the tactical combat system, would you?

roguebfl 07-21-2013 02:01 AM

Re: 4E's hit point philosophy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Polydamas (Post 1616101)
GURPS does have some odd gaps (chase rules)

Doesn't Action have Chase rules?

Polydamas 07-21-2013 02:23 AM

Re: 4E's hit point philosophy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding (Post 1616104)
Mass Combat should still work.

I still really don't see the difference between "Lets have our 700 guys fight their 700 guys!" and "Lets have our 1st rate Ship fight their 1st rate ship." You wouldn't try to do the former with the tactical combat system, would you?

Sometimes! I have run battles where I only handled the common-soldier-PCs and their immediate opponents in detail, and handled the larger battle by fiat and a few skill rolls (the heroes were barbarian mercenaries not generals or staff officers). In an epic game, one might well handle a battle as a duel between the heroes and the enemy champions- Kromm says that he has done that.

I don't think that a fight between one vehicle and one or a handful is the intended scale for GURPS Mass Combat, and MC doesn't really have rules for anachronistic weapons.

vicky_molokh 07-21-2013 02:39 AM

Re: 4E's hit point philosophy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Polydamas (Post 1616106)
I don't think that a fight between one vehicle and one or a handful is the intended scale for GURPS Mass Combat, and MC doesn't really have rules for anachronistic weapons.

MC doesn't have unit prefabs for e.g. 'lorica segmentata + assault rifle' units, but it does have units across TLs, so you can pit them in anachronistic battles.

Polydamas 07-21-2013 02:47 PM

Re: 4E's hit point philosophy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by roguebfl (Post 1616105)
Doesn't Action have Chase rules?

The ToC says so, but they were published in 2008, in a supplement for a genre which I don't play.

sir_pudding 07-21-2013 02:55 PM

Re: 4E's hit point philosophy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Polydamas (Post 1616106)
Sometimes! I have run battles where I only handled the common-soldier-PCs and their immediate opponents in detail, and handled the larger battle by fiat and a few skill rolls (the heroes were barbarian mercenaries not generals or staff officers). In an epic game, one might well handle a battle as a duel between the heroes and the enemy champions- Kromm says that he has done that.

You could do the same thing with naval engagements. The problem with the low DR/HP wouldn't be an issue there either.
Quote:

I don't think that a fight between one vehicle and one or a handful is the intended scale for GURPS Mass Combat,
With vehicles that large (and with such large crews) it's clearly closer than the intended scale of the regular tactical man-to-man combat system!
Quote:

and MC doesn't really have rules for anachronistic weapons.
It does have rules for different TL units. If you've got a TL8 Light Infantry Fireteam on a TL5 Ship of the Line, you can do that with Mass Combat.

Refplace 07-21-2013 10:51 PM

Re: 4E's hit point philosophy
 
Unliving and Homgenous reduce the damage from impaling and piercing attacks.
This works similar to a limited form of IT:DR
IT:DR can have Cosmic round to 0 so why not slap Cosmic on the Unliving or Homogeneous for the same effect?
that I think will at least help with the Musket ball problem.
Especially when combined with more IT"DR or some of the other rules proposed.

Anthony 07-22-2013 12:11 AM

Re: 4E's hit point philosophy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Polydamas (Post 1616101)
We do have some such rules, such as using a crew's average Crewman skill for rolls, or treating the fire of many weapons as a high Rate of Fire attack, but many of those are problematic (the latter, for example).

Observe my requirement: "in a way that produces similar results to resolving them one at a time". It's possible to come up with rules that actually work for those purposes, but it produces very odd results.

roguebfl 07-22-2013 12:19 AM

Re: 4E's hit point philosophy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Polydamas (Post 1616257)
The ToC says so, but they were published in 2008, in a supplement for a genre which I don't play.

Still means it not a hole, just means it not in the basic set

Polydamas 07-22-2013 01:21 AM

Re: 4E's hit point philosophy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding (Post 1616265)
You could do the same thing with naval engagements. The problem with the low DR/HP wouldn't be an issue there either.

Well, it is an issue if the heroes are a gun crew, and they score some hits. Or if there is a pursuit, and they man or lay the stern chasers or the bow guns. Indeed, firing that one special shot is a common role for heroes.

I checked, and Mass Combat does have rules for transported troops with the Marine trait participating in a naval battle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony (Post 1616459)
Observe my requirement: "in a way that produces similar results to resolving them one at a time". It's possible to come up with rules that actually work for those purposes, but it produces very odd results.

Which rule are you objecting to? I think that the "use average Crewman skill" rule works excellently, and I think that "treat many guns as an attack with high RoF" rule is flawed.

I also think that the most important thing is that rules for actions at both large and small scales reasonably describe reality (whether our reality, or that of a literary genre). Sometimes the right simplifications at one scale ("damage is all-or-nothing" and "everyone in a fight has limited control over their actions" for mass combat) are the wrong ones for another (basic combat has detailed damage rules and gives each player full control over their character).


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